A 10-year-old Mexican girl has given birth to a baby boy after a 31-week pregnancy, according to reports.
The premature infant, which weighed 3.3 pounds, was born by Caesarian section at the Women’s Hospital in the city of Puebla and is in the intensive care unit recovering from pneumonia.
The young mother, who is from the nearby San Francisco Totimehuacan community, has returned home after the procedure but visits the baby every day to breastfeed, officials said.
Please include a summary or abstract with such links in the future, per WCT rule #10. Thanks! --Senori
I think this is somewhat unnatural* (and, no, without my getting emotional about this); but, to say "disgusting" is in and of itself disgusting.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your "it", "this", "that", etc. (I'm guilty of using "this", but I approximately mean the fact that a 10-year-old girl births a neonate). Clearly, we need a context surrounding this.
*Maybe I should use unusual. Unnatural carries a stigma, doesn't it?
Edit: Unnatural may be overdoing it, considering a living child was born, but considering it was a preemie, I guess you could call a 10-year-old giving birth physiologically unnatural. Also, I'm not a paedo and I do not condone paedo activity, paedo-like activity, premarital sex, relations between precocious married children, etc.
^^ People still get married that young in modern societies. Your European cultural norms do not apply to the rest of the world. There is nothing immoral about people having children that young or being married that young. It's not like the human brain is incapable of understanding the situation by that age. I knew what marriage was and what it meant by time I was that age, and I wasn't exactly the sort of kid that paid attention to what people were saying all of the time. In fact I have Asperger's Disorder, and half the time I had my face stuck in a book ignoring the rest of the world.
Are people seriously arguing that a 10-year-old getting knocked up isn't disgusting? Children should not be having sex. They do not "understand the situation by that age". That's a line pedophiles use to justify raping kids too young to consent. I'd hesitate to call any society that let's people rape kids "modern".
^^ People still get married that young in modern societies. Your European cultural norms do not apply to the rest of the world. There is nothing immoral about people having children that young or being married that young.
That's a disturbing viewpoint. No one is our culture expects a 10-12 year old to be able to make informed adult decisions on who they should marry. That's why laws on statutory rape exist.
It's not like the human brain is incapable of understanding the situation by that age.
For the most part, I think you are wrong. Have you talked to a 10 year old lately? You really think a 10 or 12 year old can make an informed decision about marriage and how it will affect the rest of his or her life?
What is this was a 12 year old boy marrying a 40 year old woman. Would you fee the same way.
Having a hard time wrapping my head around how anyone could be so stuck int he past that they don't see this as morally unjustifiable.
I knew what marriage was and what it meant by time I was that age, and I wasn't exactly the sort of kid that paid attention to what people were saying all of the time.
No 10-12 year old is paying attention. That's kind of the point. They are not mature enough to make that kind of decision. There is a reason the socially evolved nations in the world deem marrying off a 12 year-old as child abuse. Because...it's kid abuse.
Are people seriously arguing that a 10-year-old getting knocked up isn't disgusting? Children should not be having sex. They do not "understand the situation by that age". That's a line pedophiles use to justify raping kids too young to consent. I'd hesitate to call any society that let's people rape kids "modern".
I'm not surprised. People use all kinds of convoluted logic to justify the perpetuation of old world morals and traditions like slavery, racism, bigotry, and all manner child abuse.
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Anyway, it's stuff like this that makes abortions an absolute necessity.
You could also argue that not aborting the child is a deterrent to their future selves, those that interact with them firsthand, and those that hear their story.
...by which I make the point that this individual story really has nothing to do with abortion.
That's a disturbing viewpoint. No one is our culture expects a 10-12 year old to be able to make informed adult decisions on who they should marry. That's why laws on statutory rape exist.
We are not speaking about our culture. Go back and read what I posted again.
For the most part, I think you are wrong. Have you talked to a 10 year old lately? You really think a 10 or 12 year old can make an informed decision about marriage and how it will affect the rest of his or her life?
What is this was a 12 year old boy marrying a 40 year old woman. Would you fee the same way.
You can think I'm wrong all you wish, it doesn't bother me.
My 12 year old Nephew is capable of doing Calculus. He's capable of understanding advanced geo-political topics. I think he's mentally strong enough to understand the situation if he were put into it. He is considered average in Asia. When he moved to Australia he was put into classes three grades over what his age requires. It's the differences of cultures that make the difference. People raised in Western cultures do not understand how badly they are being held back by their own educational system.
Having a hard time wrapping my head around how anyone could be so stuck int he past that they don't see this as morally unjustifiable.
The time period or date has nothing to do with it. In Japan weddings are still arranged, heck in most of Asia they are done at birth. Your ideals of divine morality have no bearing in other cultures.
No 10-12 year old is paying attention. That's kind of the point. They are not mature enough to make that kind of decision. There is a reason the socially evolved nations in the world deem marrying off a 12 year-old as child abuse. Because...it's kid abuse.
It's kid abuse for Western countries, the rest of the world disagrees.
I'm not surprised. People use all kinds of convoluted logic to justify the perpetuation of old world morals and traditions like slavery, racism, bigotry, and all manner child abuse.
In fact, it really isn't. One of the most important parts of your brain for making 'rational' decisions, the prefrontal cortex, only starts to develop and become fully functional during and after puberty, which usually starts at 12 or 13 for females. So no, this 10 year old isn't able to make a well-considered choice whether to have a baby or not.
Except conception can not start until Puberty is near it's middle stages for females. Sort of makes light of your comment about the pre-frontal cortex.
At first I thought you might be trolling since of course people don't get married at age 10 in moderns societies. But since you said it yourself - you have Asperger's - your intuition and judgment on what is socially acceptable and what is not is distorted and your ability to be empathetic is severely reduced, so you might not be the best person to judge this particular situation. And I don't mean any offense by that, just putting things in perspective.
See now that is you trolling. You making a diagnosis on my condition that has no bearing on my ability to assess a situation and it's borderline ban worthy according to the rules of this forum.
Besides, you have no idea what my condition is nor the severity of it, but you obviously feel you are the authority on it and capable of making sound judgement on my opinion here though. My judgement is far more likely to be rational and objective than your own on this matter. As you stated I'm less likely to emotional about the issue, which is true. Emotional judgement's are not rational, and do not follow any sort of moral guideline. You can't put into perspective something that is purely subjective, that is unless you are actually acknowledging that there is a universal sort of morality, which here on this forum has been argued against numerous times. In that case you would be further proving my point here.
My 12 year old Nephew is capable of doing Calculus. He's capable of understanding advanced geo-political topics. I think he's mentally strong enough to understand the situation if he were put into it. He is considered average in Asia. When he moved to Australia he was put into classes three grades over what his age requires. It's the differences of cultures that make the difference. People raised in Western cultures do not understand how badly they are being held back by their own educational system.
Being able to analytically think something over and having the maturity to see something through are quite different things though. A marriage or parenthood is not something that is completely intellectual in nature.
The time period or date has nothing to do with it. In Japan weddings are still arranged, heck in most of Asia they are done at birth. Your ideals of divine morality have no bearing in other cultures.
Not true. In Japan arranged marriages (O-miai) are very rare. The process was all but given up in the mid 1900s. Same in China, "love-marriages" are a heavy majority, and child marriages were actually outlawed in the 1920s. India is the only major country in Asia that has a larger arranged marriage system.
It's kid abuse for Western countries, the rest of the world disagrees.
Again, not really. Most modern countries to date have raised age of consent considerably. The odd fact is that Mexico, where this story takes place, is one of the few that has the age of consent as low as 12, but those laws are under review.
Except conception can not start until Puberty is near it's middle stages for females. Sort of makes light of your comment about the pre-frontal cortex.
Kind of falls under the heading of "just because you can doesn't mean you should". Even though conception is possible does not mean it is advised. While a 10-year old could go through puberty, her body is still not medically advisable to have a child, and she would be at high risk. This is corroborated by the complications mentioned in the article.
In either case, the article doesn't give enough information to speculate on the background of the situation. But I will agree with most that a 10 year old having a child is something I disagree with. It is a miracle that she came through it all and is still healthy.
Wikipedia has a list of the youngest people to have ever given birth. Believe it or not, the 10 year old is not the youngest. There's also plenty of citations from reputable sources on the page, which I've checked into.
Let's just say there's much worse out there, nevertheless a 10 year old shouldn't be making babies. She should be waiting at least until she's 18+ IMO. I'm getting married in the next year or two (depending on finances) and I don't even want a baby until I'm 25 or 26 (23 currently.)
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^^ People still get married that young in modern societies. Your European cultural norms do not apply to the rest of the world. There is nothing immoral about people having children that young or being married that young.
"Children having children that young" not quite, from what I recall the average age was more towards 13-16 even going by "European standards" as of early 20th century. 10 is underdeveloped, from a medical point of view 16 is preferred since girls tend to be done physically growing and can take more of the brunt physically from pregnancy. Pregnancy takes a heavy toll on the body, and having a high mortality rate when pregnancy can be postponed or terminated and "try again later at a better age" factor into the paradigms.
Equally the cultural norms of "child brides" comes into contention where the girls are very young and given to old men similar to traded as chattel and end up being abused. That's essentially another aspect while a child may certainly understand and therefore protest their own marriage against the will of the parents, they still end up married to some dirty old man which is a major cultural problem and is immoral.
knew what marriage was and what it meant by time I was that age, and I wasn't exactly the sort of kid that paid attention to what people were saying all of the time. In fact I have Asperger's Disorder, and half the time I had my face stuck in a book ignoring the rest of the world.
Okay, so you're saying that a person that has problems responding and reading social stimuli at the age of 10 versus a more matured version of the self at say 20 who by then through socialization would have the symptoms of Aspergers nipped in the bud or relatively closely to be an "effective enough partner." There's one major thing with Asperger's, specifically persons with Asperger's are known for being able to give a logical and clinical diagnostic of their own mental states but have difficult time in "the field" when it comes to interaction which is one of the staples to being a parent and spouse is the relational side and it takes to be able to acquire mental modes which occur through life experience and typically refined through the teens.
Even taking the neurotypical 13 year European female during the early 20th century who was married at that age still mourned to be able to play with her friends while waiting for her miner husband to get home looking out her kitchen window. There's multiple oral histories that are similar to that factor little into the whole regard, it informs a worldview beyond "other people did it" and goes back to psycho-social development whenever humans begin to totally rebel from the parent, 15-17, rather than 10-13. Which is something that occurs in all mammals to some degree in different ways, but for the human animal the contention and reckless behaviors are meant to start humans to begin to break out on their own. After that stage passes, parent-child relationship contentions decrease.
Now taking that altogether, "working with the rebellious phase" has been looked at from a policy angle for business generation and wealth generation over that of creating a new generation to set the seeds for stability in the late teens to early 20's. While I tend to agree that our common perspectives as a society about age is warped and too Victorian and PC, there's a limit on psycho-social interactions. However, I seriously doubt that a 10 year old with Aspergers would make a better father than the man you are today. Who has had the years experience and wisdom of years to learn his own limits, capacities, and of the world. Whereas engaging in capitalism promoting more early pro-social behaviors that come with business would've probably been more optimal at 10, and probably wouldn't surprise me much that you had your own business at that age, either.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I remember a girl getting pregnant in my 7th grade class (a long long time ago). It was really the first time I thought about girls my age being sexual beings. I had grown out of the "girls are yucky stage" and knew I wanted a girlfriend, but I was not expecting anything like sex to happen at that age. The larger problem was that her boyfriend was 24 and got caught trying to sneak on the school campus to visit her.
I remember a girl getting pregnant in my 7th grade class (a long long time ago). It was really the first time I thought about girls my age being sexual beings. I had grown out of the "girls are yucky stage" and knew I wanted a girlfriend, but I was not expecting anything like sex to happen at that age. The larger problem was that her boyfriend was 24 and got caught trying to sneak on the school campus to visit her.
You want spooky look meet the youngest pregger on record at 4 years old:
This is the kind of stuff I tend to really dislike about backwater cultures, and yes I said "backwater" without being a moral relativist and it's not cool to place your children and grandchildren in danger with an exploding womb. Furthermore, the "old pregger problem" and waiting for her dust to break is equally just as problematic when considering older eggs have issues among other health related issues such as being 78 with an 18 year old.
I really have no issue with later teenagers getting married, presuming that they're "mature enough" and are on good solid foundation. Equally, the invention of the "twixter phase" is stupid by making adolescence go up to 25 and making for 45 year old "boys" still engorged into their own inner fratboy."
I'm still in the feeling that life "doesn't begin until 40" when you actually get past the bull **** phases of life but not old enough to be sucking on prune juice and asking "where's my cane." Even then being "that old guy" that gets to joke, "They took the wrong one damn it!" whenever someone else dies that younger probably doesn't have it's own unique charm.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Being able to analytically think something over and having the maturity to see something through are quite different things though. A marriage or parenthood is not something that is completely intellectual in nature.
Say's you. In Asian, it is. You're applying your western cultural norms on the rest of the world.
Not true. In Japan arranged marriages (O-miai) are very rare. The process was all but given up in the mid 1900s. Same in China, "love-marriages" are a heavy majority, and child marriages were actually outlawed in the 1920s. India is the only major country in Asia that has a larger arranged marriage system.
Japan still has it with the wealthiest families and within the Yakuza culture. China is still doing arranged marriages even though it's illegal. India is not the only country that legally does it. In the southern islands of Asia arranged marriages are commonplace. Then again only China and Japan matter, right? Let's forget that the computer you are typing this one was likely made in Taiwan, and the monitor is from the Philippines.
Again, not really. Most modern countries to date have raised age of consent considerably. The odd fact is that Mexico, where this story takes place, is one of the few that has the age of consent as low as 12, but those laws are under review.
That doesn't make it child abuse. That just means some people don't agree with it.
Kind of falls under the heading of "just because you can doesn't mean you should". Even though conception is possible does not mean it is advised. While a 10-year old could go through puberty, her body is still not medically advisable to have a child, and she would be at high risk. This is corroborated by the complications mentioned in the article.
I don't advise you to travel and drink the local water, doesn't mean you won't.
In either case, the article doesn't give enough information to speculate on the background of the situation. But I will agree with most that a 10 year old having a child is something I disagree with. It is a miracle that she came through it all and is still healthy.
Proto-man was giving birth that young. Ancient civilizations were born from people born out of mothers that young.
"Children having children that young" not quite, from what I recall the average age was more towards 13-16 even going by "European standards" as of early 20th century. 10 is underdeveloped, from a medical point of view 16 is preferred since girls tend to be done physically growing and can take more of the brunt physically from pregnancy. Pregnancy takes a heavy toll on the body, and having a high mortality rate when pregnancy can be postponed or terminated and "try again later at a better age" factor into the paradigms.
Equally the cultural norms of "child brides" comes into contention where the girls are very young and given to old men similar to traded as chattel and end up being abused. That's essentially another aspect while a child may certainly understand and therefore protest their own marriage against the will of the parents, they still end up married to some dirty old man which is a major cultural problem and is immoral.
Your first part ignores that humans are maturing at a younger age than ever before.
The second part is actually the argument I was looking for. Now that is grounds to stand on. The rest of the arguments based upon, oops it's wrong or oops it's bad are meaningless. The girl's right's argument is the only one that will hold ground in any court or essentially anywhere. It's the argument that should be made, which is why I pointed out the arranged marriages. I was trying to coax an accurate and rational response from this thread. I have to believe that people are capable of doing this, if they spend the time to think about it.
Small hole with small hips with something about the size of a melon passing through, bound to cause problems.
My son's mother had no issues, and she's only 5' tall and 90lbs. That whole area of the body is from the onset is meant to flex and stretch for that very purpose.
Okay, so you're saying that a person that has problems responding and reading social stimuli at the age of 10 versus a more matured version of the self at say 20 who by then through socialization would have the symptoms of Aspergers nipped in the bud or relatively closely to be an "effective enough partner." There's one major thing with Asperger's, specifically persons with Asperger's are known for being able to give a logical and clinical diagnostic of their own mental states but have difficult time in "the field" when it comes to interaction which is one of the staples to being a parent and spouse is the relational side and it takes to be able to acquire mental modes which occur through life experience and typically refined through the teens.
The social interaction side is usually gone by time you get old enough to formulate a thought coherently. Only in very severe instances does Asperger's hinder a person in adulthood. If you met me today IRL you wouldn't even be aware of my "condition". At the age of around 9-10 a person with a median case of Asperger's is completely capable of blending in. Learning those social interactions are difficult at first, but with the exposure you get in those first few years, it's easy to get over.
Even taking the neurotypical 13 year European female during the early 20th century who was married at that age still mourned to be able to play with her friends while waiting for her miner husband to get home looking out her kitchen window. There's multiple oral histories that are similar to that factor little into the whole regard, it informs a worldview beyond "other people did it" and goes back to psycho-social development whenever humans begin to totally rebel from the parent, 15-17, rather than 10-13. Which is something that occurs in all mammals to some degree in different ways, but for the human animal the contention and reckless behaviors are meant to start humans to begin to break out on their own. After that stage passes, parent-child relationship contentions decrease.
Interesting point. I can agree with it.
Now taking that altogether, "working with the rebellious phase" has been looked at from a policy angle for business generation and wealth generation over that of creating a new generation to set the seeds for stability in the late teens to early 20's. While I tend to agree that our common perspectives as a society about age is warped and too Victorian and PC, there's a limit on psycho-social interactions. However, I seriously doubt that a 10 year old with Aspergers would make a better father than the man you are today. Who has had the years experience and wisdom of years to learn his own limits, capacities, and of the world. Whereas engaging in capitalism promoting more early pro-social behaviors that come with business would've probably been more optimal at 10, and probably wouldn't surprise me much that you had your own business at that age, either.
I did not have a business at that age, but I built a rifled cannon at the age of 11.
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Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Nidstyles, i'd like to let you know that the cultural relativism you're advocating is not only dangerous, it's downright destructive. i don't hold typical western cultural norms, but the fact that you're arguing it's okay for a 10 year old to be pregnant both worries me for your mental well being, and makes me slightly depressed that we have people in the enlightened west that argue in favor of old world primitivism in modern society.
seriously dude, you lost this argument before you even tried to type it.
Chris-chan here advocates having sex with 10-year-olds and you're talking with him as if he was a rational human being? Instead of talking with him you should call the police, he might be dangerous to his surroundings.
Let's forget that the computer you are typing this one was likely made in Taiwan, and the monitor is from the Philippines.
Asians produce our stuff not because they are smart, but because they come from poor underdeveloped countries and agree to work for slave wages (apparently "superior Asian education" ain't helping them much).
BTW, computers and the Internet are Western inventions, funny you didn't know that. It's always ironic how cultural relativists love bashing our culture, but none of them wants to reject the luxuries of living in the West and move to some primitive hellhole like Niger or Cambodia. If those cultures are equal, or even superior to Western, then no one is stopping you (but remember, using Western medicine is cheating, you are only allowed to use services of a village shaman ).
The time period or date has nothing to do with it. In Japan weddings are still arranged, heck in most of Asia they are done at birth. Your ideals of divine morality have no bearing in other cultures.
NidStyles,
The source of your problem lies in this sentence. You are assuming that because a tradition was popular at ANY time in history that it should never need to be discarded as a social norm. Shall we look at some of the other rituals that were common in human civilization over the millennia.
1. Human Sacrifice.
The Mayans cracked open the chest cavity of living person every day for thousands of years as a way to make sure the sun would rise. This was a cultural norm at the time. It was considered an honor (though I bet most of the people getting their chest cut open didn't think so).
Do you think it's reasonable to continue this practice in the modern day?
2. Incest
Abraham married his half sister. Incest has a long history in human culture, many times as a way to keep bloodlines "pure". What do you think, it wasn't so bad long ago, so why don't we start hooking up with our sisters and brothers. It was OK back then so it must be OK toda.... wait a sec... something seems wrong here....
And the topic of this thread:
3. Pedophilia.
You are defending the actions of a pedophile.
Pedophiles are, I would say, the lowest form of human existence.
If you think being a pedophile, or the act of having sex with a 10 year old, is OK, I would strongly suggest you seek psychiatric help because you are a danger to the people around you.
Just because a particular society has a taboo cultural norm doesn't mkae it OK. Is it OK that woman are treated so harshly in Afghanistan that their average life expectancy is 40 years old? But it's the social norm there, it MUST be OK, right? Wrong.
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Just to put in my .02, weddings are still "arranged" in Japan. I assume you are referring to an omiai. Today, weddings are arranged voluntarily on the part of the woman/man themselves or by "concerned" parent; concerned that the son or daughter is aging and will NEVER get married if they don't do something about it.
The former is very similar to any matchmaking service we have here in the US. The latter is more of an annoyance.
If there is matchmaking from birth, no one talks about it at all. It is definitely not done enough to be an ongoing cultural thing.
Edit: My Japanese wife corrected me, there is matchmaking from birth in wealthy and political families. However, these are simply "my kid and your kid will marry when they are old enough". It does not consist of promising children to older members of society.
Japan still has it with the wealthiest families and within the Yakuza culture. China is still doing arranged marriages even though it's illegal. India is not the only country that legally does it. In the southern islands of Asia arranged marriages are commonplace. Then again only China and Japan matter, right? Let's forget that the computer you are typing this one was likely made in Taiwan, and the monitor is from the Philippines.
Actually, your original statement had 2 specifics "In Japan weddings are still arranged, heck in most of Asia they are done at birth."
I conceded that there are SOME in Japan, but again, very few. And yes, let's all make sure we do everything that rich people and the Yakuza do. They are the social norm afterall. /sarcasm
And as for "Most of Asia", I focused on the largest countries in Asia NOT the small island nations as they are not "Most of Asia", they are the smallest portion of Asia. To add another, Russia also used to have a large number of arranged marriages not as law, but as a matter of convenience or practicality. Again, that has fallen out of style and as a majority the population leans toward love relationships. (also, I never said arranged marriages are illegal anywhere, I said child marriages are.)
That doesn't make it child abuse. That just means some people don't agree with it.
So we are arguing semantics here? Does that mean slavery is ok, since "some people don't agree with it" but some people still practice it?
So here's the real question, since the situation regarding conception is not given in the article, are your points still valid if, say, she was raped by a parent and forced to give birth to the child? Or are you just assuming that a 10-year old in Mexico decided she wanted to have a child?
About Frox: for nearly 10 years, Frox has been helping women look good and feel great in easy-fit, mix-and-match, and work-to-weekend with just a few pieces by helping them make the right choices when it comes to clothing and accessories.
It's a miracle that the baby and mother both survived the child birth. I'm only hoping that there is some sort of support net to help this young mother. Talk about a life changing experience.
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"Proving god exists isn't hard. Proving god is God is the tricky part" - Roommate
You realize that Mexico was a Spanish colony and tends to have largely Spanish cultural mores, right? (And I would assume the Aztecs at the very least didn't believe in the "sanctity of human life", seeing as they thought humans existed to be food for the gods.)
There is nothing immoral about people having children that young or being married that young. It's not like the human brain is incapable of understanding the situation by that age.
No, just issues of the size of the uterus. Plus, I'm willing to bet sex between a 10-year-old girl and any boy or man old enough to get that girl pregnant wasn't consensual. Don't be so naïve.
Either way, in Mexico, the girl is underage.
And what does you having Asperger's have to do with it? Either way, you're defending a pedophile. While I would argue a pedophile deserves legal counsel and that his guilt be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt before a conviction, I would not argue that a pedophile deserves to have people defending him using the culture card.
Surely you would respect the Lakota custom of executing anyone who commits incest, then, hmm? And let me assure you, the execution method is very painful.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-11-10/news/30384749_1_mexican-girl-abortions-young-mother
Please include a summary or abstract with such links in the future, per WCT rule #10. Thanks! --Senori
Dega midrange 1-0
But yeah. This is disgusting.
Anyway, it's stuff like this that makes abortions an absolute necessity.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your "it", "this", "that", etc. (I'm guilty of using "this", but I approximately mean the fact that a 10-year-old girl births a neonate). Clearly, we need a context surrounding this.
*Maybe I should use unusual. Unnatural carries a stigma, doesn't it?
Edit: Unnatural may be overdoing it, considering a living child was born, but considering it was a preemie, I guess you could call a 10-year-old giving birth physiologically unnatural. Also, I'm not a paedo and I do not condone paedo activity, paedo-like activity, premarital sex, relations between precocious married children, etc.
It's disgusting because this is 21st century western society, not 4th century BCE Babylon.
How does this make abortion a necessity?
~~~~~~~~~
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Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
That's a disturbing viewpoint. No one is our culture expects a 10-12 year old to be able to make informed adult decisions on who they should marry. That's why laws on statutory rape exist.
For the most part, I think you are wrong. Have you talked to a 10 year old lately? You really think a 10 or 12 year old can make an informed decision about marriage and how it will affect the rest of his or her life?
What is this was a 12 year old boy marrying a 40 year old woman. Would you fee the same way.
Having a hard time wrapping my head around how anyone could be so stuck int he past that they don't see this as morally unjustifiable.
No 10-12 year old is paying attention. That's kind of the point. They are not mature enough to make that kind of decision. There is a reason the socially evolved nations in the world deem marrying off a 12 year-old as child abuse. Because...it's kid abuse.
I'm not surprised. People use all kinds of convoluted logic to justify the perpetuation of old world morals and traditions like slavery, racism, bigotry, and all manner child abuse.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
You could also argue that not aborting the child is a deterrent to their future selves, those that interact with them firsthand, and those that hear their story.
...by which I make the point that this individual story really has nothing to do with abortion.
We are not speaking about our culture. Go back and read what I posted again.
You can think I'm wrong all you wish, it doesn't bother me.
My 12 year old Nephew is capable of doing Calculus. He's capable of understanding advanced geo-political topics. I think he's mentally strong enough to understand the situation if he were put into it. He is considered average in Asia. When he moved to Australia he was put into classes three grades over what his age requires. It's the differences of cultures that make the difference. People raised in Western cultures do not understand how badly they are being held back by their own educational system.
The time period or date has nothing to do with it. In Japan weddings are still arranged, heck in most of Asia they are done at birth. Your ideals of divine morality have no bearing in other cultures.
It's kid abuse for Western countries, the rest of the world disagrees.
I'm sure the rest of the world is glad you care.
Except conception can not start until Puberty is near it's middle stages for females. Sort of makes light of your comment about the pre-frontal cortex.
See now that is you trolling. You making a diagnosis on my condition that has no bearing on my ability to assess a situation and it's borderline ban worthy according to the rules of this forum.
Besides, you have no idea what my condition is nor the severity of it, but you obviously feel you are the authority on it and capable of making sound judgement on my opinion here though. My judgement is far more likely to be rational and objective than your own on this matter. As you stated I'm less likely to emotional about the issue, which is true. Emotional judgement's are not rational, and do not follow any sort of moral guideline. You can't put into perspective something that is purely subjective, that is unless you are actually acknowledging that there is a universal sort of morality, which here on this forum has been argued against numerous times. In that case you would be further proving my point here.
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Being able to analytically think something over and having the maturity to see something through are quite different things though. A marriage or parenthood is not something that is completely intellectual in nature.
Not true. In Japan arranged marriages (O-miai) are very rare. The process was all but given up in the mid 1900s. Same in China, "love-marriages" are a heavy majority, and child marriages were actually outlawed in the 1920s. India is the only major country in Asia that has a larger arranged marriage system.
Again, not really. Most modern countries to date have raised age of consent considerably. The odd fact is that Mexico, where this story takes place, is one of the few that has the age of consent as low as 12, but those laws are under review.
Kind of falls under the heading of "just because you can doesn't mean you should". Even though conception is possible does not mean it is advised. While a 10-year old could go through puberty, her body is still not medically advisable to have a child, and she would be at high risk. This is corroborated by the complications mentioned in the article.
In either case, the article doesn't give enough information to speculate on the background of the situation. But I will agree with most that a 10 year old having a child is something I disagree with. It is a miracle that she came through it all and is still healthy.
Let's just say there's much worse out there, nevertheless a 10 year old shouldn't be making babies. She should be waiting at least until she's 18+ IMO. I'm getting married in the next year or two (depending on finances) and I don't even want a baby until I'm 25 or 26 (23 currently.)
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"Children having children that young" not quite, from what I recall the average age was more towards 13-16 even going by "European standards" as of early 20th century. 10 is underdeveloped, from a medical point of view 16 is preferred since girls tend to be done physically growing and can take more of the brunt physically from pregnancy. Pregnancy takes a heavy toll on the body, and having a high mortality rate when pregnancy can be postponed or terminated and "try again later at a better age" factor into the paradigms.
Equally the cultural norms of "child brides" comes into contention where the girls are very young and given to old men similar to traded as chattel and end up being abused. That's essentially another aspect while a child may certainly understand and therefore protest their own marriage against the will of the parents, they still end up married to some dirty old man which is a major cultural problem and is immoral.
Small hole with small hips with something about the size of a melon passing through, bound to cause problems.
Okay, so you're saying that a person that has problems responding and reading social stimuli at the age of 10 versus a more matured version of the self at say 20 who by then through socialization would have the symptoms of Aspergers nipped in the bud or relatively closely to be an "effective enough partner." There's one major thing with Asperger's, specifically persons with Asperger's are known for being able to give a logical and clinical diagnostic of their own mental states but have difficult time in "the field" when it comes to interaction which is one of the staples to being a parent and spouse is the relational side and it takes to be able to acquire mental modes which occur through life experience and typically refined through the teens.
Even taking the neurotypical 13 year European female during the early 20th century who was married at that age still mourned to be able to play with her friends while waiting for her miner husband to get home looking out her kitchen window. There's multiple oral histories that are similar to that factor little into the whole regard, it informs a worldview beyond "other people did it" and goes back to psycho-social development whenever humans begin to totally rebel from the parent, 15-17, rather than 10-13. Which is something that occurs in all mammals to some degree in different ways, but for the human animal the contention and reckless behaviors are meant to start humans to begin to break out on their own. After that stage passes, parent-child relationship contentions decrease.
Now taking that altogether, "working with the rebellious phase" has been looked at from a policy angle for business generation and wealth generation over that of creating a new generation to set the seeds for stability in the late teens to early 20's. While I tend to agree that our common perspectives as a society about age is warped and too Victorian and PC, there's a limit on psycho-social interactions. However, I seriously doubt that a 10 year old with Aspergers would make a better father than the man you are today. Who has had the years experience and wisdom of years to learn his own limits, capacities, and of the world. Whereas engaging in capitalism promoting more early pro-social behaviors that come with business would've probably been more optimal at 10, and probably wouldn't surprise me much that you had your own business at that age, either.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
You want spooky look meet the youngest pregger on record at 4 years old:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina
Her son lived to 40, she's still alive in Peru.
This is the kind of stuff I tend to really dislike about backwater cultures, and yes I said "backwater" without being a moral relativist and it's not cool to place your children and grandchildren in danger with an exploding womb. Furthermore, the "old pregger problem" and waiting for her dust to break is equally just as problematic when considering older eggs have issues among other health related issues such as being 78 with an 18 year old.
I really have no issue with later teenagers getting married, presuming that they're "mature enough" and are on good solid foundation. Equally, the invention of the "twixter phase" is stupid by making adolescence go up to 25 and making for 45 year old "boys" still engorged into their own inner fratboy."
I'm still in the feeling that life "doesn't begin until 40" when you actually get past the bull **** phases of life but not old enough to be sucking on prune juice and asking "where's my cane." Even then being "that old guy" that gets to joke, "They took the wrong one damn it!" whenever someone else dies that younger probably doesn't have it's own unique charm.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Say's you. In Asian, it is. You're applying your western cultural norms on the rest of the world.
Japan still has it with the wealthiest families and within the Yakuza culture. China is still doing arranged marriages even though it's illegal. India is not the only country that legally does it. In the southern islands of Asia arranged marriages are commonplace. Then again only China and Japan matter, right? Let's forget that the computer you are typing this one was likely made in Taiwan, and the monitor is from the Philippines.
That doesn't make it child abuse. That just means some people don't agree with it.
I don't advise you to travel and drink the local water, doesn't mean you won't.
Proto-man was giving birth that young. Ancient civilizations were born from people born out of mothers that young.
Your first part ignores that humans are maturing at a younger age than ever before.
The second part is actually the argument I was looking for. Now that is grounds to stand on. The rest of the arguments based upon, oops it's wrong or oops it's bad are meaningless. The girl's right's argument is the only one that will hold ground in any court or essentially anywhere. It's the argument that should be made, which is why I pointed out the arranged marriages. I was trying to coax an accurate and rational response from this thread. I have to believe that people are capable of doing this, if they spend the time to think about it.
My son's mother had no issues, and she's only 5' tall and 90lbs. That whole area of the body is from the onset is meant to flex and stretch for that very purpose.
The social interaction side is usually gone by time you get old enough to formulate a thought coherently. Only in very severe instances does Asperger's hinder a person in adulthood. If you met me today IRL you wouldn't even be aware of my "condition". At the age of around 9-10 a person with a median case of Asperger's is completely capable of blending in. Learning those social interactions are difficult at first, but with the exposure you get in those first few years, it's easy to get over.
Interesting point. I can agree with it.
I did not have a business at that age, but I built a rifled cannon at the age of 11.
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Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
seriously dude, you lost this argument before you even tried to type it.
Asians produce our stuff not because they are smart, but because they come from poor underdeveloped countries and agree to work for slave wages (apparently "superior Asian education" ain't helping them much).
BTW, computers and the Internet are Western inventions, funny you didn't know that. It's always ironic how cultural relativists love bashing our culture, but none of them wants to reject the luxuries of living in the West and move to some primitive hellhole like Niger or Cambodia. If those cultures are equal, or even superior to Western, then no one is stopping you (but remember, using Western medicine is cheating, you are only allowed to use services of a village shaman ).
NidStyles,
The source of your problem lies in this sentence. You are assuming that because a tradition was popular at ANY time in history that it should never need to be discarded as a social norm. Shall we look at some of the other rituals that were common in human civilization over the millennia.
1. Human Sacrifice.
The Mayans cracked open the chest cavity of living person every day for thousands of years as a way to make sure the sun would rise. This was a cultural norm at the time. It was considered an honor (though I bet most of the people getting their chest cut open didn't think so).
Do you think it's reasonable to continue this practice in the modern day?
2. Incest
Abraham married his half sister. Incest has a long history in human culture, many times as a way to keep bloodlines "pure". What do you think, it wasn't so bad long ago, so why don't we start hooking up with our sisters and brothers. It was OK back then so it must be OK toda.... wait a sec... something seems wrong here....
And the topic of this thread:
3. Pedophilia.
You are defending the actions of a pedophile.
Pedophiles are, I would say, the lowest form of human existence.
If you think being a pedophile, or the act of having sex with a 10 year old, is OK, I would strongly suggest you seek psychiatric help because you are a danger to the people around you.
Just because a particular society has a taboo cultural norm doesn't mkae it OK. Is it OK that woman are treated so harshly in Afghanistan that their average life expectancy is 40 years old? But it's the social norm there, it MUST be OK, right? Wrong.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
The former is very similar to any matchmaking service we have here in the US. The latter is more of an annoyance.
If there is matchmaking from birth, no one talks about it at all. It is definitely not done enough to be an ongoing cultural thing.
Edit: My Japanese wife corrected me, there is matchmaking from birth in wealthy and political families. However, these are simply "my kid and your kid will marry when they are old enough". It does not consist of promising children to older members of society.
Actually, your original statement had 2 specifics "In Japan weddings are still arranged, heck in most of Asia they are done at birth."
I conceded that there are SOME in Japan, but again, very few. And yes, let's all make sure we do everything that rich people and the Yakuza do. They are the social norm afterall. /sarcasm
And as for "Most of Asia", I focused on the largest countries in Asia NOT the small island nations as they are not "Most of Asia", they are the smallest portion of Asia. To add another, Russia also used to have a large number of arranged marriages not as law, but as a matter of convenience or practicality. Again, that has fallen out of style and as a majority the population leans toward love relationships. (also, I never said arranged marriages are illegal anywhere, I said child marriages are.)
So we are arguing semantics here? Does that mean slavery is ok, since "some people don't agree with it" but some people still practice it?
So here's the real question, since the situation regarding conception is not given in the article, are your points still valid if, say, she was raped by a parent and forced to give birth to the child? Or are you just assuming that a 10-year old in Mexico decided she wanted to have a child?
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You realize that Mexico was a Spanish colony and tends to have largely Spanish cultural mores, right? (And I would assume the Aztecs at the very least didn't believe in the "sanctity of human life", seeing as they thought humans existed to be food for the gods.)
No, just issues of the size of the uterus. Plus, I'm willing to bet sex between a 10-year-old girl and any boy or man old enough to get that girl pregnant wasn't consensual. Don't be so naïve.
Either way, in Mexico, the girl is underage.
And what does you having Asperger's have to do with it? Either way, you're defending a pedophile. While I would argue a pedophile deserves legal counsel and that his guilt be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt before a conviction, I would not argue that a pedophile deserves to have people defending him using the culture card.
Surely you would respect the Lakota custom of executing anyone who commits incest, then, hmm? And let me assure you, the execution method is very painful.
On phasing: