Okay so I have built a mono blue Talrand EDH Deck that performs amazingly in 1 on 1 but I need some advice to make it better in multiplayer. Any idea how to optimize its performance?
Alright. A quick one-over indicates the deck you're using is more of cantrip/heavy drake version. As such, you need a few main things; heavy mana, heavy drake boost, and heavy card advantage on spells.
I'll go over the heavy mana portion first. You've got a few already, Caged Sun, Sol Ring, Gilded Lotus; all of these are great. I suggest adding Sapphire Medallion, Gauntlet of Power and Extraplanar Lens (also switching all islands to Snow-Covered Island. The reason being that you will absolutely need all the mana you can get to suddenly explode with Talrand. Coming from a nothing to everything win is ideal for us, and this is almost certainly the way to do it.
The next thing you'll need is a decent amount of boosting on your drakes. Why settle for 2/2's when you can easily get 7/5's for every spell? Cards like Gauntlet of Power(like in the previous section), Favorable Winds and Gravitational Shift are amazing, though the weakest is definitely Favorable Winds. I may suggest Grand Architect instead of it because not only is it a blue creature, it also makes mana for artifacts and boosts the drakes. It's a win/win, really.
The last big thing you'll need to focus on is heavy card advantage through the spells you play. As such, cards that replace themselves are key. Preferably cheap so that you can keep on going. Gitaxian Probe (which you have on the list) is a great example. Cheap, low impact, replaces itself so you can keep on going. Some can also be expensive and replace themselves as well, however; cards like Time Spiral are a fantastic example. It replaces itself, untaps your mana, refills your hand, resets your graveyard, gets you out of land/card screw (most times); sometimes it ends up making more mana for you than you started with. It's fantastic. Also, cards like Time Warp and Time Stretch are also amazing; they get a drake, untap your mana, take an extra combat phase, draw a card; it's the whole package. Another good type of card to go for are cards such as Call to Mind; using this to grab an extra turn card or whatnot is better than amazing. It's back breaking for opponents. Adding insult to injury with a Snapcaster Mage on top of this? Players forfeit to the madness.
Now on to your card choices. I noticed a few odd choices. Trinket Mage for one; It has three legal targets, two of which I would recommend running, the other is rather lackluster (Meekstone. If you need artifacts from your deck, run Fabricate. It makes a drake, costs about the same and gets any artifact instead. Trinket mage is certainly a lovely card, but you're not hurting for 2/2's on the ground.
Another odd choice I felt was Karn. I see the aspect of colorless removal, though I'm not certain it deserves a spot in the deck. It effectively takes a few hits and dies, or exiles a few permanents and dies, or restarts the game which is rather obnoxious. You do have the main three planeswalkers I would normally suggest, however, so perhaps replace it with another spell or artifact.
Something that would go really well with your deck is Isochron Scepter. It *does* make the drake when you use it, and for a repeatable Boomerang/Counterspell/Mana Drain/Draw a Card; it effectively replaces itself if you use it twice. Remember, rattlesnakes are very useful. Same goes for cards like Counterbalance as it sets up heavy control for you. Control is one of blues specialties, and there is almost no reason not to capitalize.
A sorcery you absolutely must run is Mystic Speculation. It seeps weaksauce, but it replaces itself, makes a drake, helps your next draws out immensely, and digs. It's the buyback that we care about mostly, but the effect is also fantastic.
Another great option is Turnabout. In a pinch, you stop an attacker from killing you. Sometimes you prevent an opponent from casting a full hand of spells. Sometimes, you multiply your mana by a ridiculous amount or give your creatures vigilance. This card cannot be ignored.
Proteus Staff is amazing. WIth a no creature library, you stack your library. With only a handful of creatures, you increase your chances of having a 2/2 flyer turn into Consecrated Sphinx or Tidespout Tyrant. Also, you can tuck an opponents general and Pongify the scary creature that comes out. It's too good not to run if you have the ability.
A creature I don't find relevant in my goodstuff build that will break Talrand's ability is Sakashima the Imposter. 2x drakes per spell. Think about that; casting a spell makes two 2/2 flyer's at instant speed. Or, with Tidspout Tyrant on the field, 2x Boomerangs per spell. It's once again fantastic.
I'll look into a few more spells of yours later on. This should be a solid read, sorry for the wall of text!
Oh no man, no need for aplogies. This actually helps a ton and also helps me tremendously at work to pass time I will start Swapping some stuff out. Now as far as some of the other spells go ( seeing as there are a ton of things i should add and few i NEED to take out) What are some of the spells you feel are kind of blah to the theme?
Snow-Covered Islands are great for Extraplanar Lens. Reason being, the lens ends up doubling ALL of the imprinted card, so Snow-Covered Island. Less people run Snow-Covered Islands than just regular Islands, so you get the largest benefit while denying the benefit to potential enemy blue players.
What about cards like propaganda? Would they be of any use?
You should generally have a nice 2/2 flier or a coupe up to chump with, which serves well to divert people's attention to other players. I don't know if Propaganda-type effects are necessary here for that reason.
Certainly, though it's less drakes. Ultimately, there's two ways to run Talrand from what I find.
Overall good stuff mixed with mono-blue shenanigans, making the Drake win condition a side project. This is the strongest way to run the deck by far. Plus, if Talrand gets tucked you don't need to worry about it; you're still spanking the board.
The other build is a based on a lot of cantrips and creature boosts via enchantments and artifacts, making the deck seemingly explode when you get the right mix of cards together. This one is tough on the card advantage; you will always need more cards in hand than you think, so refill is key. This style overall is a bit weaker, but certainly more fun for you and your playgroup. The way you've built your deck seems to focus more on this style, though it does have some of the bigger spells to boost the deck (mostly time spells).
In my opinion, the use of a lot of cards, Propaganda included, ultimately depend on where you'd like to take the deck. Effectively the choices are competitive or casual. If you're going for the good stuff variation, I'd take it in a heartbeat. It's a fantastic push for attacking anyone but us in multiplayer. If you're going for cheap cantrippy version, you could probably get away without it. You'll have more creatures overall that can trade with their creatures, and an extra drake could prove useful. Then again, if you're the one with board aggro, it's always relevant.
I run Magus of the Future in mine. At first I was skeptical, but there are some crazy things you can do with it them. There's also a three card infinite draw combo with either of them, Sensei's Divining Top and Helm of Awakening, though without the Helm is fine too.
With your version of the build, It'd still be a fantastic idea because it's so powerful. Especially if you throw in Mystic Speculation for further beatdown.
Awesome I placed an order on my buddies site and got the snow covered islands and the lens and a few more things. I am super excited! I just need to figure out what to cut from the deck!
Awesome, it's looking good. Another Counterspell to consider is going to be Arcane Denial. It gives an opponent a mild card edge, but it's a 2cmc counterspell (Isochron Scepterable) that draws you a card.
Also, I separated your instants and sorceries between those that draw a card and those that don't. For the pile that doesn't, unless they're powerful enough, you may want to look into the potential for replacement.
Peek
Temporal Mastery
Time Warp
Beacon of Tomorrows
Into the Roil
Fabricate
Call to Mind
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Repulse
Capsize
Portent
Foresee
Merchant Scroll
Think Twice
Twisted Image
Crippling Chill
Visions of Beyond
Gitaxian Probe
Opt
Blue Sun's Zenith
I'll list which ones I would keep as well.
Time Stop - Keep
Remove Soul - Remove, potentially for Mana Drain
Commandeer - Keep
Dissipate - On the Fence
Spell Crumple - Keep
Abjure - On the Fence
Negate - Keep
Counterspell - Keep
Dispel - Remove
Redirect - Remove, for Twincast
Flusterstorm - Remove
High Tide - Keep
Devastation Tide - Keep
Boomerang - Keep
Mystical Tutor - Keep
A lot of the cards to keep are in relation to the synergy with your deck. If you draw into Isochron Scepter, you want a strong target for it. Keeping Boomerang, for example, is going to be fantastic in that situation, even though it doesn't draw the card. Some cards are just so strong you can't really afford not to, such as your Time Stop. The ones I listed that I would remove are usually the weaker ones. Now, I usually don't worry about my opponents big bad creatures, so I care little about countering creatures specifically. After all, with enough drakes and preventative measures, they won't be coming at me for a long time. With this in mind, it may also be a good idea to run a few more board bounces such as Evacuation and Inundate. Another card I'd highly suggest running when you get the ability to do so is Time Spiral, which refills your hand, cycles your graveyard, and untaps your mana; it's everything short of taking an extra turn, officially.
An example of how good it is; last night I was playing a duel vs my roommate. I had Talrand out and a single drake. He was playing a fungus themed deck and had ALL THE GOOD STUFF. I hard cast Devastation Tide to bounce all of his things at the end of his turn (leyline of anticipation). Afterwards, I Time Spiraled and removed everything he had just cast that turn, effectively shutting his turn away. I had enough mana to cast the important things in my hand, so it stalled him long enough for me to take back the edge.
Anyways. Those are my suggestions on what to keep and what not to. :3
So I played the first game with it last night! Multiplayer!!! I dominated. Late game I had Jin out and a tamiyo emblem so my hand was FAT! Lens on a Snow Covered Island and about 13 Snow Covered Islands in play. 1 player knocked out I drew into Commandeer... Passed turn. He had a riku out and two turns earlier had taken 7 or 8 turns in a row via time stretch, temporal mastery and riku. This turn he cast Time Warp and copied it. I commandeered both spells by removing Blue cards from hand... Needless to say having about 12 drakes favorable winds, gravitational shift, stormtide leviathan and talrand on the field. He scooped!
Aww man, way cool! I did some good stuff this evening as well. I had a Leyline of Anticipation and Propaganda in play for about 7-10ish turns. Finally got a Consecrated Sphinx in play, with a ton of snow covered's, mikokoro, Riptide Laboratory and Reliquary Tower. I had 4 lands untapped, and ended up passing the turn. My opponent drew me into a Reset and a sol ring, so I cast Sol Ring, then Isochron Scepter for Reset, then Reset copy, then Time Warp, Fabricate (into Extraplanar Lens), and a few other things. I ended up taking 5 turns, at which point they conceded to 6 copies (turned into 11, <3 Rite of Replication) of Stormtide Leviathan.
Haha, yeah, some decks get that way. Talrand can easily get that way. What with turn 2 Briberies into Jin-Gitaxis (happened last night) and Turn one Isochron Scepter > Boomerang on opponents lands, 1v1's can get pretty stupid. That's what happens with Sol Ring though, I guess.
1 Phrexian Metamorph
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sol Ring
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Meekstone
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Champion's Helm
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Caged Sun
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Peek
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Time Warp
1 Beacon of Tomorrows
1 Time Stop
1 Dismiss
1 Essence Scatter
1 Remove Soul
1 Turn Aside
1 Commandeer
1 Bone to Ash
1 Dissipate
1 Spell Crumple
1 Abjure
1 Negate
1 Cancel
1 Counter Spell
1 Dispel
1 Redirect
1 Flusterstorm
1 High Tide
1 Disperse
1 Repulse
1 Repeal
1 Unsummon
1 Devastation Tide
1 Capsize
1 Boomerang
1 Vapor Snag
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Portent
1 Foresee
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Twisted Image
1 Think Twice
1 Crippling Chill
1 Visions of Beyond
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Opt
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Reach Through Mists
1 Tamiyo, The Moon Sage
1 Karn Liberated
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolaria West
1 Reliquary Tower
31 Island
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
I'll go over the heavy mana portion first. You've got a few already, Caged Sun, Sol Ring, Gilded Lotus; all of these are great. I suggest adding Sapphire Medallion, Gauntlet of Power and Extraplanar Lens (also switching all islands to Snow-Covered Island. The reason being that you will absolutely need all the mana you can get to suddenly explode with Talrand. Coming from a nothing to everything win is ideal for us, and this is almost certainly the way to do it.
The next thing you'll need is a decent amount of boosting on your drakes. Why settle for 2/2's when you can easily get 7/5's for every spell? Cards like Gauntlet of Power(like in the previous section), Favorable Winds and Gravitational Shift are amazing, though the weakest is definitely Favorable Winds. I may suggest Grand Architect instead of it because not only is it a blue creature, it also makes mana for artifacts and boosts the drakes. It's a win/win, really.
The last big thing you'll need to focus on is heavy card advantage through the spells you play. As such, cards that replace themselves are key. Preferably cheap so that you can keep on going. Gitaxian Probe (which you have on the list) is a great example. Cheap, low impact, replaces itself so you can keep on going. Some can also be expensive and replace themselves as well, however; cards like Time Spiral are a fantastic example. It replaces itself, untaps your mana, refills your hand, resets your graveyard, gets you out of land/card screw (most times); sometimes it ends up making more mana for you than you started with. It's fantastic. Also, cards like Time Warp and Time Stretch are also amazing; they get a drake, untap your mana, take an extra combat phase, draw a card; it's the whole package. Another good type of card to go for are cards such as Call to Mind; using this to grab an extra turn card or whatnot is better than amazing. It's back breaking for opponents. Adding insult to injury with a Snapcaster Mage on top of this? Players forfeit to the madness.
Now on to your card choices. I noticed a few odd choices. Trinket Mage for one; It has three legal targets, two of which I would recommend running, the other is rather lackluster (Meekstone. If you need artifacts from your deck, run Fabricate. It makes a drake, costs about the same and gets any artifact instead. Trinket mage is certainly a lovely card, but you're not hurting for 2/2's on the ground.
Another odd choice I felt was Karn. I see the aspect of colorless removal, though I'm not certain it deserves a spot in the deck. It effectively takes a few hits and dies, or exiles a few permanents and dies, or restarts the game which is rather obnoxious. You do have the main three planeswalkers I would normally suggest, however, so perhaps replace it with another spell or artifact.
Something that would go really well with your deck is Isochron Scepter. It *does* make the drake when you use it, and for a repeatable Boomerang/Counterspell/Mana Drain/Draw a Card; it effectively replaces itself if you use it twice. Remember, rattlesnakes are very useful. Same goes for cards like Counterbalance as it sets up heavy control for you. Control is one of blues specialties, and there is almost no reason not to capitalize.
A sorcery you absolutely must run is Mystic Speculation. It seeps weaksauce, but it replaces itself, makes a drake, helps your next draws out immensely, and digs. It's the buyback that we care about mostly, but the effect is also fantastic.
Another great option is Turnabout. In a pinch, you stop an attacker from killing you. Sometimes you prevent an opponent from casting a full hand of spells. Sometimes, you multiply your mana by a ridiculous amount or give your creatures vigilance. This card cannot be ignored.
Proteus Staff is amazing. WIth a no creature library, you stack your library. With only a handful of creatures, you increase your chances of having a 2/2 flyer turn into Consecrated Sphinx or Tidespout Tyrant. Also, you can tuck an opponents general and Pongify the scary creature that comes out. It's too good not to run if you have the ability.
A creature I don't find relevant in my goodstuff build that will break Talrand's ability is Sakashima the Imposter. 2x drakes per spell. Think about that; casting a spell makes two 2/2 flyer's at instant speed. Or, with Tidspout Tyrant on the field, 2x Boomerangs per spell. It's once again fantastic.
I'll look into a few more spells of yours later on. This should be a solid read, sorry for the wall of text!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
You should generally have a nice 2/2 flier or a coupe up to chump with, which serves well to divert people's attention to other players. I don't know if Propaganda-type effects are necessary here for that reason.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Overall good stuff mixed with mono-blue shenanigans, making the Drake win condition a side project. This is the strongest way to run the deck by far. Plus, if Talrand gets tucked you don't need to worry about it; you're still spanking the board.
The other build is a based on a lot of cantrips and creature boosts via enchantments and artifacts, making the deck seemingly explode when you get the right mix of cards together. This one is tough on the card advantage; you will always need more cards in hand than you think, so refill is key. This style overall is a bit weaker, but certainly more fun for you and your playgroup. The way you've built your deck seems to focus more on this style, though it does have some of the bigger spells to boost the deck (mostly time spells).
In my opinion, the use of a lot of cards, Propaganda included, ultimately depend on where you'd like to take the deck. Effectively the choices are competitive or casual. If you're going for the good stuff variation, I'd take it in a heartbeat. It's a fantastic push for attacking anyone but us in multiplayer. If you're going for cheap cantrippy version, you could probably get away without it. You'll have more creatures overall that can trade with their creatures, and an extra drake could prove useful. Then again, if you're the one with board aggro, it's always relevant.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
With your version of the build, It'd still be a fantastic idea because it's so powerful. Especially if you throw in Mystic Speculation for further beatdown.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
Meekstone
Trinket Mage
Essence Scatter
Remove Soul
Turn Aside
Bone to Ash
Cancel
Redirect
Flusterstorm
Dispers
Repeal (Into the Roil is better)
Unsummon
Vapor Snag
Karn Liberated
Tolaria West
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
Creatures (8)
1 Phrexian Metamorph
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Magus of the Future
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Grand Architect
Artifacts (12)
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Proteus Staff
1 Sol Ring
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Champion's Helm
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Caged Sun
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Instants/Sorcerys (38)
1 Peek
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Time Warp
1 Beacon of Tomorrows
1 Time Stop
1 Dismiss
1 Into the Roil
1 Remove Soul
1 Fabricate
1 Commandeer
1 Call to Mind
1 Dissipate
1 Spell Crumple
1 Abjure
1 Negate
1 Counter Spell
1 Dispel
1 Redirect
1 Flusterstorm
1 High Tide
1 Repulse
1 Devastation Tide
1 Capsize
1 Boomerang
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Portent
1 Foresee
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Twisted Image
1 Think Twice
1 Crippling Chill
1 Visions of Beyond
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Opt
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Rhystic Study
1 Gravitational Shift
1 Propaganda
1 Favorable Winds
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Tamiyo, The Moon Sage
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Lands (34)
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolaria West
1 Reliquary Tower
31 Snow-Covered Island
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
Also, I separated your instants and sorceries between those that draw a card and those that don't. For the pile that doesn't, unless they're powerful enough, you may want to look into the potential for replacement.
Peek
Temporal Mastery
Time Warp
Beacon of Tomorrows
Into the Roil
Fabricate
Call to Mind
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Repulse
Capsize
Portent
Foresee
Merchant Scroll
Think Twice
Twisted Image
Crippling Chill
Visions of Beyond
Gitaxian Probe
Opt
Blue Sun's Zenith
I'll list which ones I would keep as well.
Time Stop - Keep
Remove Soul - Remove, potentially for Mana Drain
Commandeer - Keep
Dissipate - On the Fence
Spell Crumple - Keep
Abjure - On the Fence
Negate - Keep
Counterspell - Keep
Dispel - Remove
Redirect - Remove, for Twincast
Flusterstorm - Remove
High Tide - Keep
Devastation Tide - Keep
Boomerang - Keep
Mystical Tutor - Keep
A lot of the cards to keep are in relation to the synergy with your deck. If you draw into Isochron Scepter, you want a strong target for it. Keeping Boomerang, for example, is going to be fantastic in that situation, even though it doesn't draw the card. Some cards are just so strong you can't really afford not to, such as your Time Stop. The ones I listed that I would remove are usually the weaker ones. Now, I usually don't worry about my opponents big bad creatures, so I care little about countering creatures specifically. After all, with enough drakes and preventative measures, they won't be coming at me for a long time. With this in mind, it may also be a good idea to run a few more board bounces such as Evacuation and Inundate. Another card I'd highly suggest running when you get the ability to do so is Time Spiral, which refills your hand, cycles your graveyard, and untaps your mana; it's everything short of taking an extra turn, officially.
An example of how good it is; last night I was playing a duel vs my roommate. I had Talrand out and a single drake. He was playing a fungus themed deck and had ALL THE GOOD STUFF. I hard cast Devastation Tide to bounce all of his things at the end of his turn (leyline of anticipation). Afterwards, I Time Spiraled and removed everything he had just cast that turn, effectively shutting his turn away. I had enough mana to cast the important things in my hand, so it stalled him long enough for me to take back the edge.
Anyways. Those are my suggestions on what to keep and what not to. :3
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/3238-some-new-some-old-pay-u-and-take-a-peek