I didn't see a thread for this so I decided to make one. What does everyone think of Epic Experiment? I think it might be good as a one or two of in Past in Flames Storm. Please discuss.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"When you have the power to do something, it's hard not to try."
"The world is an endless abyss and tomorrow
draws you deeper into the darkness."
As my initial thought, I don't like it. I think you're too all-in on this card, and it makes the deck dependant on the draws. When you play something like Pyromancer Ascension, you don't care what you draw too much, cause when you get to draw twice, or add a lot to your pool, it just gets there.
This card is going to make you play some rituals, then tap out for it. If they have a counter, you're toast. So you decide not to play this card, or to ritual and play it for one. Yeah, that's going to be bad, since it costs a lot. You could also just run into the counter and see what happens.
I think it may do good as a SB card, but certainly not a MB card. It may end up that this card is more potent as an engine than PA, so you could even board some of them out against a deck like Jund that has Maelstorm Pulse or Abrupt Decay, and then just go all-in with this, when they can't stop it. I also prefer PA Storm to any other version of the deck. In that regard, this card has little value of a 1-of, since it doesn't add counters. You'd want to pick only one of the two, cause I doubt you're going to want 4 of these in your deck.
I think Gifts Ungiven is better than this card, because 1) Gifts is an instant and 2) Gifts tutors instead of leaving your fate to topdecks.
They both fit the category of "things to cast if you have a lot of mana to spend", but Gifts is a better choice than Experiment IMO. Suppose you have 6 mana up, you can spend it on Epic Experiment with X = 4, which may or may not draw you the right combination of cards to win. Whereas if that Experiment was a Gifts instead, you keep 2 mana up for a ritual, tutor the correct combination of cards, and win.
I think it's important to realize that you can pitch it with Gifts, or even cast it for X=0 (even feigning to fizzle your combo turn), and using it as a powerhouse once you have it + graveyard to flashback. I feel this will become the card that really puts the opponent on the backfoot, because this + gifts means you opponent just can't grasp what you are capable of, and therefore unprepared to make the correct decisions, even if you're not sure what it will reveal!
Everyone who played with minds desire understands how broken this card is. Everyone else...open your eyes. This card lets you draw and cast your entire deck.
This will not be good. The big difference between this and Mind's Desire is that Mind's Desire had storm, and thus it's effect couldn't be countered. Ordinarily once a storm deck can get off one or 2 rituals, counter magic can't disrupt it sufficiently, it doesn't make sense making yourself vulnerable to counter magic again for your "big play".
Yeah, with Mind's Desire, the card itself has Storm. So when you play a 6 mana spell and they counter it, you're getting some number of activations from the spell. With this card, you go all in, and basically every counter in the format (except Dispel) is going to hit it. People will go back to Spell Pierce or Negate if you all keep playing it, so it's not really relevant that some don't hit it.
Anyhow, what are the games going to be like? Turn 2, you go Pyretic Ritual into Seething Song into Manamorphose. You cast this for 3? What are you hoping to hit, Ritual, Draw, Morphose? Yeah, that's ideal, but unlikely. Gonna cast it on turn 3 for an extra 1? Your deck already has the capability of winning on turn 3. And aside from that, you have to hit another ritual or you have no mana left. You're also going to need a way to filter to blue, so you're going to have to find another Manamorphose. I could do some stats for you if you wanted, to try to show what's going to happen most of the time.
And of course, you're suspect to counters. If you're going all-in, one Spell Pierce will make you cry. You're going to waste a card and a turn, in a deck that has the capability to win fairly consistently by turn 4.
What I want you guys to do is actually play against decks and actually cast it. It may be good against a deck like Jund since they give you time, but not Delver, cause they'll counter it. Don't forget that all the discard spells in Jund will hit it, as it has a cmc of 2. If you get Inquisitioned once, this card'll suck, since they can pitch the ritual you desperately need, or the card itself, if they feel it'll be good against them.
This will not be good. The big difference between this and Mind's Desire is that Mind's Desire had storm, and thus it's effect couldn't be countered. Ordinarily once a storm deck can get off one or 2 rituals, counter magic can't disrupt it sufficiently, it doesn't make sense making yourself vulnerable to counter magic again for your "big play".
I don't think it's very hard to play Storage Lands and Gigadrowse. Just sayin.
Yeah, with Mind's Desire, the card itself has Storm. So when you play a 6 mana spell and they counter it, you're getting some number of activations from the spell. With this card, you go all in, and basically every counter in the format (except Dispel) is going to hit it. People will go back to Spell Pierce or Negate if you all keep playing it, so it's not really relevant that some don't hit it.
If you play a PiF with 2 open and no more rituals in hand, and they Spell Pierce or Negate that, you probably lose those games, too. So I don't get this double standard. Bottom line here: it's a counterable spell, but being counterable never stopped bombs from being played.
Anyhow, what are the games going to be like? Turn 2, you go Pyretic Ritual into Seething Song into Manamorphose. You cast this for 3? What are you hoping to hit, Ritual, Draw, Morphose? Yeah, that's ideal, but unlikely. Gonna cast it on turn 3 for an extra 1? Your deck already has the capability of winning on turn 3. And aside from that, you have to hit another ritual or you have no mana left. You're also going to need a way to filter to blue, so you're going to have to find another Manamorphose. I could do some stats for you if you wanted, to try to show what's going to happen most of the time.
I think you would probably be spending turn 2 either Remanding/Muddling something, or playing a Peer Through Depths/charging a storage land. Then on turn 3 you would probably tutor for the card or play reactively again. Then you spend turn 4 Gigadrowsing your opponent on his turn, either hitting lands against countermagic or hitting creatures against aggro. Then on turn 5 you go off and win the game. The turn on which you combo is completely relative to your opponent's pressure.
And of course, you're suspect to counters. If you're going all-in, one Spell Pierce will make you cry. You're going to waste a card and a turn, in a deck that has the capability to win fairly consistently by turn 4.
Spell Pierce will only make you cry if you suck at playing combo decks.
What I want you guys to do is actually play against decks and actually cast it. It may be good against a deck like Jund since they give you time, but not Delver, cause they'll counter it. Don't forget that all the discard spells in Jund will hit it, as it has a cmc of 2. If you get Inquisitioned once, this card'll suck, since they can pitch the ritual you desperately need, or the card itself, if they feel it'll be good against them.
You're going to play 4 of these, 4 Muddles, probably 4 Peer Through Depths, possibly Noxious Revivals, 4 Manamorphose to cycle through your deck, and then potentially another draw engine such as Gifts Ungiven and/or even Glittering Wish. So you're going to be able to find this and stick it through 2 or 3 Duress effects if you build your deck properly. Plus, there are also plays you can make with Halimar Depths and scry effects (Condescend, Magma Jet, Serum Visions, etc.) which allow you to hide the Experiment on top of your deck for a turn before you go off...and you probably want those anyways, since your topdeck is highly relevant as you will wave into it when you Experiment.
________
You guys see the impossible. I just see some speedbumps.
I like the card and i'm gonna use it in some deck. maybe a 1 of in this kinda deck? maybe....probably not. Might side it in if I know the opponent isn't using counterspells.
As INS said, things get countered, woop-de-fricken-doo, you can learn to play around countermagic or you can play gigadrowse, if you can't do 1 of those 2 things, you shouldn't be playing storm anyways. This card is very good, I only play 3, but doing so has allowed me to cut 1 PiF and 1 Grapeshot, as after casting Experiment (for X=8+) you are either gonna hit one of them, or hit enough dig to find one, and continue going of. Sure you could hit a clump of lands and die horribly, but that applies to ANY game of storm.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
When you play PA Storm, you normally aren't setting yourself up for PiF with 2 mana open to cast the last ritual. And when you recognize the deck is something like Delver, you make sure not to get here. The fact of the matter is that you get to 2 counters on the Ascension so you can just go around all the counterspells. Older versions of Storm had that as the plan, but the PA version is more resilient to counterspells. The problem with Storm is that it's generally very easy to disrupt.
The list you're proposing for the deck is going to have no space for cantrips. You want to be drawing cards and finding the better cards, cause now your deck loses if you never see the Epic Experiment or it gets countered. Yeah, Gigadrowse can be a great card, but how likely are you to hit it consistently early on when you're cutting cantrips for it? I also can't stand Halimar Depths in the deck, it's a waste of a land, cause every other cantrip nets you a card or is Faithless Looting. And when all the cantrips cost one, you normally can play multiples in a turn. As far as I can tell, we're making the deck less consistent, but dropping our cantrip count so that we can win off a single Epic Experiment. Yeah, that's exactly what I want to be doing, trying to win off a single card in a combo deck.
The thing with Epic Experiment is that you need to draw well. What happens when you do it for, say, x=5 and you get land, Epic Experiment, Gigadrowse, land, Ritual? Oops, we got nothing. I'm fairly certain it will fail a large enough amount of the time that you'll want to reconsider the amount you cast it for. Additionally, you get worse return off the Epic Experiment if you play multiples, because it's as bad as a land if you hit it.
I honestly doubt the ability to cast it for 8+ reliably. With the way Storm hate goes, they can do all sorts of stuff to go around this card. Going off on turn 5 isn't exactly ideal for a deck that can easily go off on turn 3. Certain decks will just have you beat if certain cards appear earlier in the game. What happens when they have a turn 1 Cage? Do you just hope the Epic Experiment goes off in a way that you don't need the PiF? What happens when there's a turn 2 Canonist or turn 3 Rule of Law?
Everyone who played with minds desire understands how broken this card is. Everyone else...open your eyes. This card lets you draw and cast your entire deck.
I'm not so sure. The comparison to Mind's Desire is understandable, but the two cards are not the same caliber, even though they are similar, in that the cards they reveal are played for free. However, they are different in :
1. You can chain Mind's Desire. The second Mind's Desire is stronger, because it has a greater storm count. Because of the "X" in epic experiment, you can't chain them, unless you have another in your hand and you hit enough rituals.
2. Epic experiment only allows you to cast instant and sorceries off of it. Mind's Desire : any card. Be it fastbond, Black lotus or Emrakul.
3. No mana limit on Mind's Desire. If you reveal 4 cards and one of them has a mana cost of 6, you'll still be able to cast it. EE only allows you to cast spells with CMC X or less.
EE is superior to MD in a few ways, though. It rewards you for having more mana and doesn't require a storm count. If you have 10 mana, you'll always see 8 cards, but with MD, you might only see 4.
MD requires you to shuffle your library, EE doesn't. One could use a personal tutor or brainstorm or other shenanigan and put a Time Spiral on top if he wants before casting EE (not in modern, but it's still doable).
EE is certainly good, no doubt about it. It will also make its mark, still no doubt about it. I'm just not sure how good it is and it's probably safe to assume that it's less good than Mind's Desire. EE encourages rituals. Since we are in modern, it's not that big of a deal in a format with no LED, Lotus Petal and other fast mana. I understand the value of one card drawing you seven, chaining into more free draw spells and rituals. Mind's Desire this is not, though.
I'm also not sure if it's better than AD Nauseam for legacy (namely because artifact mana is more prevalent), but that's a discussion for another forum.
I've tested Epic Experiment quite a bit since it got previewed, and it fits just fine as a secondary Storm engine in a Past in Flames deck (4 Epic E, 4 PiF, 12 rituals, 12 cantrips, 8 free cantrips, 4 Storm spells, 16 lands, the works). Heck, it might not be secondary, as I have goldfished wins involving only Epic E multiple times.
However, it is a bit fickle. X = 4 sometimes does not get you there. X = 5 is substantially more likely, but it still occasionally fizzles. X = 6 is when you basically automatically win with Epic E. At that point, accumulate 10 mana and you can start playing around Spell Pierce.
Epic E also doesn't like being with Pyromancer Ascension as much, as Ascension is basically dead on the Epic E combo turn, whether flipped into or otherwise hardcast.
The Epic E testing is encouraging, as it will let UR Storm dodge graveyard hate, and it has tested far better than Reforge the Soul. The Past Ascension Hybrid builds may be slightly more reliable, though.
I tested it a bunch, and I mostly agree with Lectrys. I would call it another engine, like Past in Flames or Ascension. With used in combination with those other two, it felt win-more. However, I could see it replacing one of the other two.
Even then, I don't love it. The issue is you have to hit some combination of draw and mana. If you only hit draw, sure you have all the cards, but you just spent (probably) all of your mana. If you only hit mana, you have to have past in flames in your hand or you're going nowhere. I felt like I was only getting progress when I cast it with X > 7 or 8, and by that point I could have just flashbacked PiF and won.
Essentially, I've learned two things about it: One, you must pay at least X=4, or there isn't really a point. Two, you only really can use it to win if you hit a PiF. Otherwise you're just getting an unreliable pile of mana and draw which may or many not provide what you need to keep comboing.
Overall, I don't like it. The both the rituals and the draw don't feel good enough in modern that a random pile of the two would be good enough. Also, the comparison to Mind's Desire isn't good. Mind's Desire costs 6. Period. If you can hit 6, all that matters is how many spells you cast. In constrast, E-Experiment is X, but might as well be 9-10+ for winning purposes. At that point, why aren't you casting/flashbacking PiF? The idea that "you can't have 8 PiFs" isn't really valid because E-E only works if you hit the past in flames.
I'm going to keep testing, but I think Ascension > E-E. The big reason is resilience. With the exception of perma-hosers like leyline of the void and dryad millitant (which hose PIF as well), singular graveyard hosers like tormod's crypt don't cut it against Ascension. Also, once Ascension is online, you opponent has very little time to win, as every turn you have a good shot at going off. PIF gives you maximum two chances to win (once on the original casting, once on the flashback - though a smart opponent will counter the ritual after casting PIF), while E-E gives you one chance to win. If you opponent counters the E-E, you lose the E-E plus all the rituals you used to get to that much mana. If your opponent counters the Ascension, you lose the card, but that's it.
Note: That said, the win-more it gives is hilarious. I cast E-E in testing on turn 4 for X=15, with an active ascension. Flipped all 4 grapeshots, hit for god knows how much.
In practice, I've found that Past in Flames only gives me one chance to win. If Jund or Delver gives me the chance to reuse a fizzled Past in Flames, they deserve to lose. There was one hilarious game against Delver where I cast PiF, it got Cryptic Commanded, then I cast 2 Grapeshots in a row for the win, though.
I'm not saying this replaces PiF, and I'm not saying this is ACTUALLY Mind's Desire's power level, it obviously isn't because otherwise, it would be insta-B&R'd. I'm saying it is comparable to Mind's Desire in that it lets you cast a ****load of your deck and instantly win. Try it out, set X=8 in a 16 land deck, youre gonna be hitting at least 3-4 rituals, 2-3 cantrips, and another engine, like PiF or EtW or Grapeshot
EDIT: Also, with the help of Serum Visons or Halimar Depths, you can likely set x=1 and hit a cantrip, or a Seething Song, and come out ahead.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
The thing is, once you have 10 mana to cast this with X=8, why aren't you winning anyway? If you had Ascension it should be active by now (most likely) and your cantrips are going nuts with digging at a much cheaper price, and if you have PiF, you can certainly use your graveyard over again. I don't like it, and testing didn't change that. If we get a new playable from the set, or if large results are published with it, I'll take another look.
Also, Remember that if you cast it with X=1, you can only cast the revealed spell if its converted mana cost is 1 or less. So even if you flip over a seething song, you can't cast it. That said, probably the best way to use the card is to have some sort of small library manipulation and see what you're going to hit. Certainly the best thing is PiF + any ritual, because just hitting those two (plus whatever you hit) makes it worth it. That scenario is relatively unlikely without manipulation or pumping too much mana into it though.
I call Epic Experiment a (secondary) Storm engine because, hey, sometimes you're pressed and you can't dig for another Storm engine like Past in Flames. Accumulate 8-10 mana with Epic E as your only big gas and you will probably win.
When you play PA Storm, you normally aren't setting yourself up for PiF with 2 mana open to cast the last ritual. And when you recognize the deck is something like Delver, you make sure not to get here. The fact of the matter is that you get to 2 counters on the Ascension so you can just go around all the counterspells. Older versions of Storm had that as the plan, but the PA version is more resilient to counterspells. The problem with Storm is that it's generally very easy to disrupt.
I think the one thing that needs to be mentioned is that PA Storm uses PA+PiF as its engine, and therefore the design of cantrips and dig+burn accommodates it very well. No one is arguing that with you, and in PA lists it seems that EpEx is not something you want eating into your list when it is already consistant. Also, Modern has seen an influx of Spell Snare use, even up to 4x maindeck, so Rituals and PA can become harder to setup and quick wins harder to achieve. From what I remember, PA lists that didnt run a Delver transformational sideboard would instead use 3-4 Gifts Ungiven anyways for games 2 and 3.
The list you're proposing for the deck is going to have no space for cantrips. You want to be drawing cards and finding the better cards, cause now your deck loses if you never see the Epic Experiment or it gets countered.
Ritual Gifts, as seen in developing competitive, uses a range of card advantage tactics, such as Remand and Gifts, grinding the game out until general your life is very low and your hand sculpted/opponents hand running out of options. Again, without PA, there is no need to include too many cantrips, instead using Electrolyze and Remand, Manamorphose and Merchant Scroll/Gifts for utility and a sideboard of silver bullets for easy blowouts.
The thing with Epic Experiment is that you need to draw well. What happens when you do it for, say, x=5 and you get land, Epic Experiment, Gigadrowse, land, Ritual? Oops, we got nothing. I'm fairly certain it will fail a large enough amount of the time that you'll want to reconsider the amount you cast it for. Additionally, you get worse return off the Epic Experiment if you play multiples, because it's as bad as a land if you hit it.
I honestly doubt the ability to cast it for 8+ reliably. With the way Storm hate goes, they can do all sorts of stuff to go around this card. Going off on turn 5 isn't exactly ideal for a deck that can easily go off on turn 3. Certain decks will just have you beat if certain cards appear earlier in the game. What happens when they have a turn 1 Cage? Do you just hope the Epic Experiment goes off in a way that you don't need the PiF? What happens when there's a turn 2 Canonist or turn 3 Rule of Law?
If someone is using maindecked Cages or Ethersworn Canonist, they've either had really bad experiences vs graveyard decks, or they are using Affinity! (which can be crushed after sideboard). There are so many methods to fight Storm hate if not using PA and instead playing a tempo Gifts list; counters, Remands, Echoing Truth etc. Especially if Merchant Scroll is in the list.
I honestly believe that you're right, if you're using PA Storm. But I've had many discussions already about the benefits of Forking EpEx both on and offline, and using the new Goblin Wizard to turn Remand, Manamorphose, and Rewind into straight mana ramp counter/dig spells. Make no mistake, EpEx wont just squeeze into any old Storm deck, but the possibilities it can open are becoming apparent to those of us testing it out
I'm not saying this replaces PiF, and I'm not saying this is ACTUALLY Mind's Desire's power level, it obviously isn't because otherwise, it would be insta-B&R'd. I'm saying it is comparable to Mind's Desire in that it lets you cast a ****load of your deck and instantly win. Try it out, set X=8 in a 16 land deck, youre gonna be hitting at least 3-4 rituals, 2-3 cantrips, and another engine, like PiF or EtW or Grapeshot
EDIT: Also, with the help of Serum Visons or Halimar Depths, you can likely set x=1 and hit a cantrip, or a Seething Song, and come out ahead.
In the same way Chrome Mox is comparable to Mox Sapphire, in that they both accelerate your mana curve, can provide colored mana and cost zero.
If you want a card that acts as a Mind's Desire, but is a toned down one, you have to ask yourself what are the differences, i.e. how is this card worse? Upon seeing the differences, ask yourself if these are what makes Mind's Desire so much better or only slightly better. EE needs a different kind of deck. It has very good synergy with Rituals and even more with Twincast-like effects.
P.S. X=1 means you get to see one card and it needs to have a CMC of 1. The X restricts both the number of cards and the mana cost of cards you can cast with it, much like Genesis Wave.
I have goldfished illegally then, completely forgot the CMC restrition.../:
Still, warrants testing...It is very powerful, especially in Increasing Vengeance lists (be it forking a ritual you flip into, or having the extra mana to actually fork the EpEx.
As for Abrupt Decay, the only decks that I can see using it are Jund/Loam, and some BUG deck that will come out of it. Jund is already a horrendous matchup, so I don't think Abrupt Decay is gonna do much...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
I think this topic has sold me a little on Epic Experiment as an option. I still expect it to be worse than Pyromancer Ascension, but it's definitely something to consider. One thing about it is that if they know you're playing an EpEx list, they can easily play around it. Your deck is less likely to win without EpEx, whereas the PA list can win as often as normal Storm without playing PA. The nice thing about playing a list with Gifts is that you can force them to have two counters to play around you going off. That said, it's less resilient to disruption spells. I do agree with the point that MB Spell Snares are indeed a problem, but if the PA resolves and they can't remove it in some way, the Spell Snares don't affect them so much when going off, because they have to stop the spell and a copy and that's not so easy.
I think I'll at least help brew up a list with my buddy when the set comes out and see what we can do. Maybe we'll even test it before hand. I can't say I'm a fan, but who knows.
I'm thinking that EpEx is going to end up more a meta call, and a SB card. The decks that are likely to play something like Abrupt Decay (which is going to ruin PA) are the decks you're likely to resolve EpEx for x=7 and win the game that turn. Thing is, I know you could always board out PA against decks like Jund to make room for things like Shattering Spree or Echoing Truth, cause they're playing some amount of Cage/Relic/Spellbomb in the board. I'm fairly certain the ideal number of PAs is not 4 anyhow, so I think you can find 3 relevant spells in the board to replace them with.
electromancer is pretty much a ritual in this deck, because you can cast him the turn you plan to go off and he will still offer a mana jump. but if you have him on the battlefield to start your turn, you will get a lot of extra mana. he allows you to go off with less, which i love. he turns manamorphose and rituals
epic experiment is really good. it's a very flexible spell, in that you can cast it for 4 for solid value, and anything above x=5 will allow the combo to move up the mana/card chain (usually winning the game outright). and with electromancer, x is usually very big.
of course, hitting past in flames or just casting it with an active ascension usually will push your combo over the edge. sometimes it whiffs, but the output to input ratio is amazing.
"The world is an endless abyss and tomorrow
draws you deeper into the darkness."
This card is going to make you play some rituals, then tap out for it. If they have a counter, you're toast. So you decide not to play this card, or to ritual and play it for one. Yeah, that's going to be bad, since it costs a lot. You could also just run into the counter and see what happens.
I think it may do good as a SB card, but certainly not a MB card. It may end up that this card is more potent as an engine than PA, so you could even board some of them out against a deck like Jund that has Maelstorm Pulse or Abrupt Decay, and then just go all-in with this, when they can't stop it. I also prefer PA Storm to any other version of the deck. In that regard, this card has little value of a 1-of, since it doesn't add counters. You'd want to pick only one of the two, cause I doubt you're going to want 4 of these in your deck.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
They both fit the category of "things to cast if you have a lot of mana to spend", but Gifts is a better choice than Experiment IMO. Suppose you have 6 mana up, you can spend it on Epic Experiment with X = 4, which may or may not draw you the right combination of cards to win. Whereas if that Experiment was a Gifts instead, you keep 2 mana up for a ritual, tutor the correct combination of cards, and win.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
It seems incredibly powerful with Increasing Vengeance.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Anyhow, what are the games going to be like? Turn 2, you go Pyretic Ritual into Seething Song into Manamorphose. You cast this for 3? What are you hoping to hit, Ritual, Draw, Morphose? Yeah, that's ideal, but unlikely. Gonna cast it on turn 3 for an extra 1? Your deck already has the capability of winning on turn 3. And aside from that, you have to hit another ritual or you have no mana left. You're also going to need a way to filter to blue, so you're going to have to find another Manamorphose. I could do some stats for you if you wanted, to try to show what's going to happen most of the time.
And of course, you're suspect to counters. If you're going all-in, one Spell Pierce will make you cry. You're going to waste a card and a turn, in a deck that has the capability to win fairly consistently by turn 4.
What I want you guys to do is actually play against decks and actually cast it. It may be good against a deck like Jund since they give you time, but not Delver, cause they'll counter it. Don't forget that all the discard spells in Jund will hit it, as it has a cmc of 2. If you get Inquisitioned once, this card'll suck, since they can pitch the ritual you desperately need, or the card itself, if they feel it'll be good against them.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I guess this needs testing.
I don't think it's very hard to play Storage Lands and Gigadrowse. Just sayin.
If you play a PiF with 2 open and no more rituals in hand, and they Spell Pierce or Negate that, you probably lose those games, too. So I don't get this double standard. Bottom line here: it's a counterable spell, but being counterable never stopped bombs from being played.
I think you would probably be spending turn 2 either Remanding/Muddling something, or playing a Peer Through Depths/charging a storage land. Then on turn 3 you would probably tutor for the card or play reactively again. Then you spend turn 4 Gigadrowsing your opponent on his turn, either hitting lands against countermagic or hitting creatures against aggro. Then on turn 5 you go off and win the game. The turn on which you combo is completely relative to your opponent's pressure.
Spell Pierce will only make you cry if you suck at playing combo decks.
You're going to play 4 of these, 4 Muddles, probably 4 Peer Through Depths, possibly Noxious Revivals, 4 Manamorphose to cycle through your deck, and then potentially another draw engine such as Gifts Ungiven and/or even Glittering Wish. So you're going to be able to find this and stick it through 2 or 3 Duress effects if you build your deck properly. Plus, there are also plays you can make with Halimar Depths and scry effects (Condescend, Magma Jet, Serum Visions, etc.) which allow you to hide the Experiment on top of your deck for a turn before you go off...and you probably want those anyways, since your topdeck is highly relevant as you will wave into it when you Experiment.
________
You guys see the impossible. I just see some speedbumps.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
The list you're proposing for the deck is going to have no space for cantrips. You want to be drawing cards and finding the better cards, cause now your deck loses if you never see the Epic Experiment or it gets countered. Yeah, Gigadrowse can be a great card, but how likely are you to hit it consistently early on when you're cutting cantrips for it? I also can't stand Halimar Depths in the deck, it's a waste of a land, cause every other cantrip nets you a card or is Faithless Looting. And when all the cantrips cost one, you normally can play multiples in a turn. As far as I can tell, we're making the deck less consistent, but dropping our cantrip count so that we can win off a single Epic Experiment. Yeah, that's exactly what I want to be doing, trying to win off a single card in a combo deck.
The thing with Epic Experiment is that you need to draw well. What happens when you do it for, say, x=5 and you get land, Epic Experiment, Gigadrowse, land, Ritual? Oops, we got nothing. I'm fairly certain it will fail a large enough amount of the time that you'll want to reconsider the amount you cast it for. Additionally, you get worse return off the Epic Experiment if you play multiples, because it's as bad as a land if you hit it.
I honestly doubt the ability to cast it for 8+ reliably. With the way Storm hate goes, they can do all sorts of stuff to go around this card. Going off on turn 5 isn't exactly ideal for a deck that can easily go off on turn 3. Certain decks will just have you beat if certain cards appear earlier in the game. What happens when they have a turn 1 Cage? Do you just hope the Epic Experiment goes off in a way that you don't need the PiF? What happens when there's a turn 2 Canonist or turn 3 Rule of Law?
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I'm not so sure. The comparison to Mind's Desire is understandable, but the two cards are not the same caliber, even though they are similar, in that the cards they reveal are played for free. However, they are different in :
1. You can chain Mind's Desire. The second Mind's Desire is stronger, because it has a greater storm count. Because of the "X" in epic experiment, you can't chain them, unless you have another in your hand and you hit enough rituals.
2. Epic experiment only allows you to cast instant and sorceries off of it. Mind's Desire : any card. Be it fastbond, Black lotus or Emrakul.
3. No mana limit on Mind's Desire. If you reveal 4 cards and one of them has a mana cost of 6, you'll still be able to cast it. EE only allows you to cast spells with CMC X or less.
EE is superior to MD in a few ways, though. It rewards you for having more mana and doesn't require a storm count. If you have 10 mana, you'll always see 8 cards, but with MD, you might only see 4.
MD requires you to shuffle your library, EE doesn't. One could use a personal tutor or brainstorm or other shenanigan and put a Time Spiral on top if he wants before casting EE (not in modern, but it's still doable).
EE is certainly good, no doubt about it. It will also make its mark, still no doubt about it. I'm just not sure how good it is and it's probably safe to assume that it's less good than Mind's Desire. EE encourages rituals. Since we are in modern, it's not that big of a deal in a format with no LED, Lotus Petal and other fast mana. I understand the value of one card drawing you seven, chaining into more free draw spells and rituals. Mind's Desire this is not, though.
I'm also not sure if it's better than AD Nauseam for legacy (namely because artifact mana is more prevalent), but that's a discussion for another forum.
However, it is a bit fickle. X = 4 sometimes does not get you there. X = 5 is substantially more likely, but it still occasionally fizzles. X = 6 is when you basically automatically win with Epic E. At that point, accumulate 10 mana and you can start playing around Spell Pierce.
Epic E also doesn't like being with Pyromancer Ascension as much, as Ascension is basically dead on the Epic E combo turn, whether flipped into or otherwise hardcast.
The Epic E testing is encouraging, as it will let UR Storm dodge graveyard hate, and it has tested far better than Reforge the Soul. The Past Ascension Hybrid builds may be slightly more reliable, though.
Even then, I don't love it. The issue is you have to hit some combination of draw and mana. If you only hit draw, sure you have all the cards, but you just spent (probably) all of your mana. If you only hit mana, you have to have past in flames in your hand or you're going nowhere. I felt like I was only getting progress when I cast it with X > 7 or 8, and by that point I could have just flashbacked PiF and won.
Essentially, I've learned two things about it: One, you must pay at least X=4, or there isn't really a point. Two, you only really can use it to win if you hit a PiF. Otherwise you're just getting an unreliable pile of mana and draw which may or many not provide what you need to keep comboing.
Overall, I don't like it. The both the rituals and the draw don't feel good enough in modern that a random pile of the two would be good enough. Also, the comparison to Mind's Desire isn't good. Mind's Desire costs 6. Period. If you can hit 6, all that matters is how many spells you cast. In constrast, E-Experiment is X, but might as well be 9-10+ for winning purposes. At that point, why aren't you casting/flashbacking PiF? The idea that "you can't have 8 PiFs" isn't really valid because E-E only works if you hit the past in flames.
I'm going to keep testing, but I think Ascension > E-E. The big reason is resilience. With the exception of perma-hosers like leyline of the void and dryad millitant (which hose PIF as well), singular graveyard hosers like tormod's crypt don't cut it against Ascension. Also, once Ascension is online, you opponent has very little time to win, as every turn you have a good shot at going off. PIF gives you maximum two chances to win (once on the original casting, once on the flashback - though a smart opponent will counter the ritual after casting PIF), while E-E gives you one chance to win. If you opponent counters the E-E, you lose the E-E plus all the rituals you used to get to that much mana. If your opponent counters the Ascension, you lose the card, but that's it.
Note: That said, the win-more it gives is hilarious. I cast E-E in testing on turn 4 for X=15, with an active ascension. Flipped all 4 grapeshots, hit for god knows how much.
UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia
Play Magic online free with GCCG!
Download it here -- (My Username is ShinkyP)
Trade Thread: Here!
EDIT: Also, with the help of Serum Visons or Halimar Depths, you can likely set x=1 and hit a cantrip, or a Seething Song, and come out ahead.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
Also, Remember that if you cast it with X=1, you can only cast the revealed spell if its converted mana cost is 1 or less. So even if you flip over a seething song, you can't cast it. That said, probably the best way to use the card is to have some sort of small library manipulation and see what you're going to hit. Certainly the best thing is PiF + any ritual, because just hitting those two (plus whatever you hit) makes it worth it. That scenario is relatively unlikely without manipulation or pumping too much mana into it though.
UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia
Play Magic online free with GCCG!
Download it here -- (My Username is ShinkyP)
Trade Thread: Here!
Then again, my testing results may be more optimistic because I play 4 Serum Visions 4 Sleight of Hand 4 Peer Through Depths in the PiF build. I play 4 Visions 4 Thought Scour 4 Faithless Looting in the Ascension build and Epic E was noticeably worse there for multiple reasons.
I think the one thing that needs to be mentioned is that PA Storm uses PA+PiF as its engine, and therefore the design of cantrips and dig+burn accommodates it very well. No one is arguing that with you, and in PA lists it seems that EpEx is not something you want eating into your list when it is already consistant. Also, Modern has seen an influx of Spell Snare use, even up to 4x maindeck, so Rituals and PA can become harder to setup and quick wins harder to achieve. From what I remember, PA lists that didnt run a Delver transformational sideboard would instead use 3-4 Gifts Ungiven anyways for games 2 and 3.
Ritual Gifts, as seen in developing competitive, uses a range of card advantage tactics, such as Remand and Gifts, grinding the game out until general your life is very low and your hand sculpted/opponents hand running out of options. Again, without PA, there is no need to include too many cantrips, instead using Electrolyze and Remand, Manamorphose and Merchant Scroll/Gifts for utility and a sideboard of silver bullets for easy blowouts.
If someone is using maindecked Cages or Ethersworn Canonist, they've either had really bad experiences vs graveyard decks, or they are using Affinity! (which can be crushed after sideboard). There are so many methods to fight Storm hate if not using PA and instead playing a tempo Gifts list; counters, Remands, Echoing Truth etc. Especially if Merchant Scroll is in the list.
I honestly believe that you're right, if you're using PA Storm. But I've had many discussions already about the benefits of Forking EpEx both on and offline, and using the new Goblin Wizard to turn Remand, Manamorphose, and Rewind into straight mana ramp counter/dig spells. Make no mistake, EpEx wont just squeeze into any old Storm deck, but the possibilities it can open are becoming apparent to those of us testing it out
In the same way Chrome Mox is comparable to Mox Sapphire, in that they both accelerate your mana curve, can provide colored mana and cost zero.
If you want a card that acts as a Mind's Desire, but is a toned down one, you have to ask yourself what are the differences, i.e. how is this card worse? Upon seeing the differences, ask yourself if these are what makes Mind's Desire so much better or only slightly better. EE needs a different kind of deck. It has very good synergy with Rituals and even more with Twincast-like effects.
P.S. X=1 means you get to see one card and it needs to have a CMC of 1. The X restricts both the number of cards and the mana cost of cards you can cast with it, much like Genesis Wave.
Still, warrants testing...It is very powerful, especially in Increasing Vengeance lists (be it forking a ritual you flip into, or having the extra mana to actually fork the EpEx.
As for Abrupt Decay, the only decks that I can see using it are Jund/Loam, and some BUG deck that will come out of it. Jund is already a horrendous matchup, so I don't think Abrupt Decay is gonna do much...
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
I think I'll at least help brew up a list with my buddy when the set comes out and see what we can do. Maybe we'll even test it before hand. I can't say I'm a fan, but who knows.
I'm thinking that EpEx is going to end up more a meta call, and a SB card. The decks that are likely to play something like Abrupt Decay (which is going to ruin PA) are the decks you're likely to resolve EpEx for x=7 and win the game that turn. Thing is, I know you could always board out PA against decks like Jund to make room for things like Shattering Spree or Echoing Truth, cause they're playing some amount of Cage/Relic/Spellbomb in the board. I'm fairly certain the ideal number of PAs is not 4 anyhow, so I think you can find 3 relevant spells in the board to replace them with.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
4 epic experiment
4 pyromancer's ascension
3 past in flames
4 grapeshot
4 sleight of hand
4 gitaxian probe
4 manamorphose
4 desperate ritual
4 seething song
4 pyretic ritual
4 steam vents
3 sulfur falls
2 shivan reef
3 island
2 misty rainforest
electromancer is pretty much a ritual in this deck, because you can cast him the turn you plan to go off and he will still offer a mana jump. but if you have him on the battlefield to start your turn, you will get a lot of extra mana. he allows you to go off with less, which i love. he turns manamorphose and rituals
epic experiment is really good. it's a very flexible spell, in that you can cast it for 4 for solid value, and anything above x=5 will allow the combo to move up the mana/card chain (usually winning the game outright). and with electromancer, x is usually very big.
of course, hitting past in flames or just casting it with an active ascension usually will push your combo over the edge. sometimes it whiffs, but the output to input ratio is amazing.