Intro
With the full set spoiled it's time to get to work on brewing some sweet Block decks! I wanted to start with Jund for a couple of reasons. First, it seems like the most powerful creatures are Golgari (Lotleth Troll, Dreg Mangler, etc.) and the best removal is Rakdos/Red (Dreadbore, Mizzium Mortars). Secondly, I always start a new format designing a midrange deck since it's the deck that, at least in my eyes, is the least dependent on a meta (control has to be geared to beat the other decks, aggro needs to know which threats to run, and midrange just has to be a solid deck). Let's start with my list:
This is by no means a perfect list but has proven to run rather well in the limited testing I've been able to do. I'll do a card by card analysis in a sec but first let me give you the outline/philosophy of the deck.
Jund: A GBR midrange strategy that utilizes powerful creatures and removal to survive into the late game and then grind out the match with two-for-ones and relevant top decks.
This is my personal definition of the deck and I think my card choices reflect this philosophy. The deck uses powerful and aggressively costed creatures to survive or put pressure on early (Lotleth Troll and Dreg Mangler), both conditional and unconditional removal to deal with opposing threats (Abrupt Decay and Dreadbore), two-for-ones (Rakdos's Return, Vraska the Unseen, the Scavenge mechanic), and relevant top decks (Underworld Connections, Vraska the Unseen, any creature to be powered up by Scavenge) which all work together to make the deck a potent force at any stage of the game. So with the philosophy of the deck understood let's look at some of the individual card choices.
Lands
I'm not going to pretend to know the optimal land configuration yet, but this looks like a good place to start. All of the dual lands add black so we don't need too many Swamps, and we don't need too much red since it's only on a few cards (and removal doesn't always need to be cast on-curve). You want lots of Forests because, unlike black mana, it's not on all of the dual lands and you want to have access too it early. Like I said, this could be tweaked but I don't think the mana base is horrible or anything and having 16 dual lands is one of the main reasons to play these colors.
4 Lotleth Troll - Actually not too much to say about this guy since it's pretty obvious this card is awesome. Cheap, resilient, good on offense and defense and combos well with Scavenge - one of the best ways to start off the game. Although the power level of this card is obvious the lines of play with him are not. Should you go all in with him? Is he really a 2 drop or do you always have to play him with an extra black mana open? Do you pitch extras in your hand if you don't think you can afford to keep multiple black mana up every turn? These are all questions that will be answered from extensive testing as we figure out what decks are in the format and what our role in the meta is.
3 Dreg Mangler - An aggressively costed aggressive beater, that also provides some card advantage in the late game thanks to its Scavenge ability. A 3 mana 3/3 haster is very good offensively but don't forget it's also great at playing defense if need be. Trade these for a card early then Scavenge it later to make any creature a threat that demands an answer. Also great to be pitched to Lotleth Troll since it provides value from the grave.
4 Deadbridge Goliath - I know, I know. "This card is a vanilla creature - not playable." Exactly what I thought too at first. However, this is block constructed and we don't have too many choices, and after looking through the spoilers a few times I finally realized this guy actually isn't too shabby. First he's a 5/5 for 4 mana, which is definitely above curve. Second he doesn't die to Abrupt Decay or Mizzium Mortars and can block every creature in this deck profitably (I know there will be other decks, but just sayin'). Even when he manages to get killed he can come back to give one of your other creatures 5 +1/+1 counters, which is pretty sweet. He can also gets value from being dumped into the graveyard by Lotleth Troll. Definitely better than he looks.
4 Desecration Demon - This guy is pretty powerful (being a 4 mana 6/6 Flyer and all) but can also be pretty poor against the token decks. On an empty board he just wrecks, but that's only if your opponent has 0 creatures and no way to kill him in hand (and if that's the case you could beat them with anything). In any case, this is the best finisher in our colors and despite all the down sides to him he can put a game away very quickly.
Ok, that wraps it up for the creatures.
Spells
4 Dreadbore - Solid. This kills any creature no matter what size, color or CMC. I have this at 4 because, while I expect there to be control decks with only a few creatures, this can still kill those creatures and their Jace, Architect of Thought. In creature match ups it's good against both aggro and midrange, early or late game. Just a good card to have at all times it seems.
3 Mizzium Mortars - After 4 Dreadbore I wanted another piece of non-Abrupt Decay removal and this seems like the best (although Ultimate Price could be argued for). I was already splashing red so that was fine, and the 4 damage kills a good majority of creatures in the format (4 toughness creatures are usually >3 CMC, sorry Abrupt Decay). While there's not a ton of red mana in the deck it's definitely possible that you could put together enough to use the Overload half of the spell and wipe your opponent's board, followed by smashing in with a giant creature. Not much more to say about this, just more removal.
2 Abrupt Decay - Great removal but actually quite limited for what this deck wants to do. This decks' creatures are some of the most powerful in the format when played on curve and so they can hold off almost all other aggressive creatures, so early game removal like this isn't necessarily a must have. What <4 drop outclasses (not just trades) with Dreg Mangler when you're on the draw, or Deadbridge Goliath when you're on the play? Not many. Even a Lotleth Troll with regen mana up can stop any low drops from trying to get aggressive. So if this card isn't killing low drops what's it doing? Well the fact that it can get rid of problematic creatures is definitely still a plus, but that it can also get rid of any nonland permanent with CMC 3 or less is just too much value for Jund to pass up. This gives an answer to most graveyard hate (Rest in Peace), destroys the Keyrunes people might start playing, and also kills big tokens. With the card being so versatile it's hard to not run a couple main deck as a catch all. Probably will be more in the board but it's definitely not the best creature removal for the deck and it's secondary use is just a glorified Naturalize.
4 Rakdos Keyrune - This, as seen in standard, is really good. It provides ramp, color fixing and a relevant creature when needed, all in one. While we're not necessarily ramping to anything in particular (although it's sweet with Rakdos's Return), our big threats are at 4 mana so making sure we get there is important, as well as having extra mana to cast a 4 drop and something else in the same turn.
1 Underworld Connections - This card is a great way to get some card advantage against the slower decks. You don't want too many since you have no way to gain back life, and also have a lot of other things to spend you mana on, but 1 seems good as a mise. Just helps you draw into more threats later in the game, not too much to say about it.
3 Vraska the Unseen - Was initially against this card but finally came around to it. My original thinking was that her +1 didn't really do anything and paying 5 mana for a Vindicate was pretty bad. I came to realize that this card can get you out of basically any situation by destroying the card that's giving you trouble, and then stick around to do it again in a few turns. I'm not sure how often you'll be making assassins but it's a nice back up plan if it ever comes to that.
3 Rakdos's Return - Love this card. Dominates any mirroring midrange match up (Jund, Junk, GW), and can also really screw up control decks if you hit them for enough. The damage is relevant and can also be redirected to planeswalkers. Definitely a key card in the deck and can give you some occasional free wins. Started at 1 but went up to 3 of these main deck since I seemed to be boarding it in a lot.
Sideboarding
VS UWx Serenity Control
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-2 Dreadbore
-1 Dreg Mangler
-1 Deadbridge Goliath
+1 Golgari Charm
+3 Slaughter Games
+1 Rakdos's Return
+2 Underworld Connections
Here you're just taking out all of your terrible Sorcery speed removal and putting in really good cards. I cut 1 Deadbridge Goliath and 1 Dreg Mangler because I want to bring in 7 cards and they're probably the least impactful of your creatures against them. The game plan is to just play a couple threats and protect them with Golgari Charms and Abrupt Decays and then land a Slaughter Games and/or a big Rakdos's Return. You might have to leave in some amount of Dreadbores against Bant to take care of any Armada Wurms that resolve.
VS 5 Color Control
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-2 Dreadbore
-1 Deadbridge Goliath
+1 Vandalblast
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Rakdos's Return
+2 Underworld Connections
Since I'm not sure what this deck will look like (only that I'm sure some people will build it) I basically just copy pasted the above sideboard plan. Vandalblast is in my sideboard for this specific match up since whatever this monstrosity is trying to cast it probably involves multiple Keyrunes/Chromatic Lanterns.
VS Rakdos Aggro
-1 Underworld Connections
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-2 Rakdos's Return
+1 Mizzium Mortars
+3 Auger Spree
+2 Street Spasm
Golgari Charm hits basically nothing in their deck (Unleash guarantees their toughness is at least 2) and the regen is too slow. All the other cuts should make sense. I cut 1 Vraska because she's just too slow to really impact the board. We bring in a ton of removal and an additional (albeit expensive) sweeper.
I could certainly be wrong about this (will have to see how other people build their Jund decks) but this seems the way to go. Mizzium Mortars only kills Lotleth Troll (not really) and Dreg Mangler (after they've attacked) so that seems pretty bad. You're basically switching those and Auger Spree which kills both Troll and Mangler before they can do much. Abrupt Decay is cut for basically the same reason (although maybe keep the Decays if your opponent is using Keyrunes too?). Slaughter Games seems slow and unnecessary since you are both doing the same thing you can at least match their powerful plays with your own. Rakdos's Return wins you games on its own since being up cards in the mirror is pure gold. Underworld Connections fills a similar role since you will usually be in a stand off with similar creatures on the board and you can just overwhelm them (maybe keep in Decay to kill your opponents Connections?). Ultimate Price, while it doesn't deal with Troll and Mangler gets rid of Deadbridge Goliath and Desecration Demon. Maybe it's not needed though and I could see an argument for keeping in Abrupt Decay over bringing this in.
VS Selesnya Midrange
-1 Dreadbore
-3 Dreg Mangler
+1 Mizzium Mortars
+2 Street Spasm
+1 Rakdos's Return
I think there will be two versions of this deck. One will be aggressive (Precinct Captains, Call of the Conclave and Loxodon Smiter beat down) and the other more controlling (Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage, Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and Armada Wurm Populate). Against both Mizzium Mortars and Street Spasm seem good, and you'll probably have enough time for a Rakdos's Return. You might have to keep in the Dreadbore to deal with Trostani against the populate deck.
Well that's all the decks I can think of off the top of my head. As you can see all the cards have places they come in at and holes they fill in each match up, so I think the Sideboard is pretty solid. It of course will need to be tuned once the actual metagame is sorted out but this seems good for now. Even if my read is slightly off Jund is really good at having a solid game plan and I know that my deck can just present threats and have removal to put the game away.
Conclusion
Ok, well that's my starting point for this block format. Looking forward to hearing from you guys and seeing what you've come up with. Please be as constructive as possible with your criticisms and give some thought into your posts. You can also contact me on MTGO, same username.
Would you like to explain any of your selections?
Why 4 Abrupt Decay? What do you expect that to hit?
Why Auger Spree over Mizzium Mortars?
4 Underworld Connections seems pretty taxing on your mana (both being double black and taking away a land).
How has Vraska been? Is 4 too many?
Why did you configure your sideboard with those cards? What do you expect the meta to be?
Would really like this thread to be more than everyone just posting deck lists. Try and explain your choices so we can start bouncing around ideas and tuning the deck, please.
the abrupt decay's are a no brainer they hit any small creatures, big token creatures, most small enchantments, the artifact rock cycle and multicoloured mana rock (which is very good).
the auger spree's are for taking out opposing lotleth troll's mainly the extra 1 in the sideboard it for if the opponents playing a set of them, there also a cool combat trick to help push through more damage. i like mizzium mortars it's in the sideboard for selesnya token decks really as a sweeper
the deck has 25 land and curve's out at 5 mana the aim is to keep pressure on with big creatures and removing there early drops, the 4 underworld connections are there to keep your deck ticking over with card advantage if 1 gets destroyed hopefully you'll have another ready to go, plus it's the engine that keeps the deck drawing its removal and creature's like the two 4 drops
4 deadbrige goliath(then makes another creature big)
4 desecration demon
are the biggest for that mana apart rakdos himself and should be able to pound face with all the removal in the deck.
the reason i went for 4 vraska the unseen was the give me more options it removes permanent for fun, its a nightmare for control it'll just keep ticking up, there only option is to bounce it or detention sphere but we can deal with them (abrupt decay, golgari charm)
the sideboard it a bit hit and miss, i know i'd like to keep the extra auger spree, the 4 golgari charm for the mass regen and enchantment removal, i think 3 is the right number mizzium mortars. but the rest i don't know i picked the rakdos charm for the artifact removal and the rest is just more removal.
hope thats answered some of your questions
Ya, I'm still not sold on having the full 4 Abrupt Decays (at least mainboard), but if the meta ends up calling for it then of course you'd want them. They're decent in the creature matchups but like I said in the OP your creatures usually just outclass theirs so the removal you want is actually for the bigger creatures (>3 CMC). If decks end up running the Keyrunes though I can see this going up in value.
Auger Spree killing Lotleth Troll is pretty sweet and I'm kind of coming around on this card. It'll be interesting to see the split with this and Mizzium Mortars. Still, being 3 mana instead of 2 can really slow you down in the early to mid game so I still think there should be some kind of split main deck.
Ya, I know Underworld Connections is good at getting you cards for the late game but you want to be dropping it and activating it after you've played out most of your threats so I think that 4 is way too many. Also, you have no sort of life gain so having two of these going at a time can only go for so long before they become dead cards. 3 max, and probably 2, is where I'd start with that card.
I'm not exactly sure why you think that Vraska the Unseen gives control a hard time. Sure her -2 is good at dealing with Chromatic Lantern and Jace, Architect of Thought but her +1 is basically useless against them. They can just sit and let her tick up and ultimate and then sweep away the tokens with Supreme Verdict or an Overloaded Mizzium Mortars or Cyclonic Rift. Against creature decks if you +1 then they can just ignore her while they dig for an answer or just kill you, and if you -2 to kill something then she's at only 2 loyalty and easily killed. Maybe she's good as a 4 of since you can just use her as a Desert Twister + gain some life every time they finish her off, then drop another. I'm just not sold that she really does anything in any matchup.
Ya, I don't think we can really build sideboards yet. The thing you have to keep in mind is when side boarding you need to have equal cards coming out as coming in. A lot of 4-ofs in your board is dangerous because you're swapping whole parts of your deck out, and thereby diluting what you originally built your deck to do.
I'll be testing your version out and seeing how it does against some other decks I've built. If anyone wants to test with me on Magic Workstation go ahead and send me a PM and we'll set something up.
This is fine for now. Deck Creation is good too. I'll get the admins to set up the IDA folder and start shifting things between the PRE and Release.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Just another quick update, after more testing I've found that a lot more of the control builds are using the angel of serenity as a finisher, (a damn good one)
because of this i started sideboarding Slaughter Games and man this cards is the nuts out of the sideboard, take all their angels, jace's, vraska, wurms, supreme verdict's man it does all the heavy lifting and oh yeah it can't be countered, drawing 2 in your opening hand is not the worst against control. so i add 4 to the sideboard instead of the rakdos charms.
Thing is tho, the first games against control and aggro are a bit iffy, but after sideboarding both games become much easier.
i think i may need to look at the main deck again and really sure it up against either aggro or control and sideboard just for the other, any input would be appreciated.
yours
paulallan
Damn, totally forgot about Slaughter Games... Just had to go back and try to add another finisher to my sideboards of all my UWx decks lol. I pretty much gave up on Jund/GW/Rakdos because they really struggle against a resolved Serenity Angel (best card in the format, hands down) and absolutely cannot ever beat two Angels looping each other. Slaughter Games however has me worried as a control player, which means it's a good plan for the Jund deck. Might even go so far as to main deck 1 copy. Definitely has me rethinking the match up.
hi quick edit :-
i took jarad's orders out of the deck (just wasn't doing anything) and added the 4th mizzium mortars to the main deck.
really please with the main deck now its can stabilize against aggro pritty fast and after sideboarding in 4 auger spree for 2 slaughter games, 1 treasure find and 1 vraska the unseen the aggro match ups become much easier, you can just grind them out.
Against control its possible to win the first game now where it was nearly always and instant loss, 2 main deck slaughter games have changed this and if you draw just 1 of these it helps so much and i have even been thinking of adding a 3rd to the main instead of treasure find, again after sideboarding the deck runs much better siding in 2 more slaughter games and 3 underworld connections taking out the 4 mizzium mortars and a dreadbore, underworld help draw you into slaughter games and you can just rape their library's of the meaningful cards.
The hardest match up's now are other midrange deck with a lot more card advantage than jund. Mainly selesnya midrange their token strategies can get out of hand, but these deck are a lot worst vs control.
yours
paulallan
Think we're (you're) finally getting to a solid Jund list. As much as I ragged on Underworld Connections I do like 1 main deck (I'm a sucker for 1-of draw spells in decks). I think you could replace the Treasure Find with that. Everything else looks pretty good. Still not sure you want the full 4 Vraska the Unseens in the main, and would prob drop one for a mise Rakdos's Return since that card is a sick late game draw (and not too shabby mid game). I think that would be the most solid main deck in the pre-meta era of deck building. We'll just have to wait and see how the other decks shape up and then tune from there (number of Abrupt Decay, Slaughter Games, etc.).
We'll have to do some more testing soon (fixed my MWS) and work out how to play specific match ups (this goes for anyone, just PM me). Anyways, good work!
I could only see Pyroconvergence playable if it cost 2 less. It doesn't fit a traditional Jund play style. It's not efficient and doesn't do anything on its own. Just not in the right deck in my opinion, buy decisively something you can build around like the flashback burn enchantment.
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I like current block formats the most.
Its so limited to its power scale against other formats.
Block constructed should be a more competitive format like it was back in Champions or Ravnica.
Maybe in limited it's a bomb, but constructed play not so much. If i am paying 5 or more, i want to be winning with that card. I don't think it's quite ready yet, without Boros and Gruul in the block, but definitely something that can be viable in a control shell, if the 5 cost doesn't ruin it.
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I like current block formats the most.
Its so limited to its power scale against other formats.
Block constructed should be a more competitive format like it was back in Champions or Ravnica.
Ya, I say no go on the Pyroconvergence plan. Better used in some kind of 5 color control deck and not as a little (very little) bit of value in an aggressive midrange deck.
Well, up to this point I was pretty dead set on playing UW or Bant control for block but everyone else finally came to realize how absurd Jace, Architect of Thought, Angel of Serenity and Sphinx's Revelation were and the deck is now up to around 280 tickets to put together (330ish for Bant). So, looks like I'm back to Jund as it still looks to be a solid deck (and about half the price). I'm buying all the cards on Friday and this is the final list I'm putting together:
The major change here is the addition of the Rakdos Keyrunes. I felt like When I got flooded there wasn't much to do with the extra mana, and when I got mana screwed it was usually at 3 or 4 which limited me to 1 spell per turn. The Keyrunes fix, or at least help with, both of those problems by giving me an extra guy if I have the spare mana or to help get out of mana screw. Also, I added a main deck Golgari Charm to fight against Supreme Verdict in game 1 and just as an all around good card.
Here you're just taking out all of your terrible Sorcery speed removal and putting in really good cards. I cut 1 Deadbridge Goliath because I want to bring in 7 cards and he's probably the least impactful of your creatures against them. The game plan is to just play a couple threats and protect them with Golgari Charms and Abrupt Decays and then land a Slaughter Games and/or a big Rakdos's Return. You might have to leave in some amount of Dreadbores against Bant to take care of any Armada Wurms that resolve.
Since I'm not sure what this deck will look like (only that I'm sure some people will build it) I basically just copy pasted the above sideboard plan. Vandalblast is in my sideboard for this specific match up since whatever this monstrosity is trying to cast it probably involves multiple Keyrunes/Chromatic Lanterns.
Golgari Charm hits basically nothing in their deck (Unleash guarantees their toughness is at least 2) and the regen is too slow. All the other cuts should make sense. I cut 1 Vraska because she's just too slow to really impact the board. We bring in a ton of removal and an additional (albeit expensive) sweeper.
I could certainly be wrong about this (will have to see how other people build their Jund decks) but this seems the way to go. Mizzium Mortars only kills Lotleth Troll (not really) and Dreg Mangler (after they've attacked) so that seems pretty bad. You're basically switching those and Auger Spree which kills both Troll and Mangler before they can do much. Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm are cut for basically they same reasons (although maybe keep the Decays if your opponent is using Keyrunes too?). Slaughter Games seems slow and unnecessary since you are both doing the same thing you can at least match their powerful plays with your own. Rakdos's Return wins you games on its own since being up cards in the mirror is pure gold. Underworld Connections fills a similar role since you will usually be in a stand off with similar creatures on the board and you can just overwhelm them (maybe keep in Decay to kill your opponents Connections?). Ultimate Price, while it doesn't deal with Troll and Mangler gets rid of Deadbridge Goliath and Desecration Demon. Maybe it's not needed though and I could see an argument for keeping in Abrupt Decay over bringing this in.
Ok, well that's all the decks I can think of off the top of my head. As you can see all the cards have places they come in at and holes they fill in each match up, so I think the Sideboard is pretty solid. It of course will need to be tuned once the actual metagame is sorted out but this seems good for now. Even if my read is slightly off Jund is really good at having a solid game plan and I know that my deck can just present threats and have removal to put the game away. Anyways, see you guys in the dailies! Name is degausser on mtgo too so feel free to message me.
Edit: It's got more red in it than I thought at first, moved to the Jund Thread
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
So, no one seems to be interested in this deck anymore but I just 3-1'd a Daily Event with it. I was 3-0 vs the UWx control decks but was pretty quickly dispatched by Rakdos aggro.
The control decks are ridiculously easy now that I went up to 3 Rakdos's Return main deck. Basically the first turn they tap out you win the game. After that just play 1 threat at a time and you eventually get there.
Rakdos however is very challenging. The problem is that even when you stabilize there's no good life gain in the format so you just eventually die. I'm so desperate for life gain I may put some Stonefare Crocodiles in the board or splash for Heroes' Reunion.
I bought the cards earlier today so haven't gotten a ton of games in yet (on MTGO anyways, I've played a ton on MWS) but I played 5 matches prior to the DE and went 5-0 very easily. You just have some very solid and hard to deal with threats backed up with tons of removal and Rakdos's Return so you're favored in the basically every stage of the game.
Anyways, don't know if anyone cares but thought I'd give an update here. Updated the OP with my current list.
I think there are quite a lot of people interested! I am at least. Not posting yet as I had not time yet to play any block constructed myself, but I always love the format and I am reading every thread with interest (though I admit the deck I myself work on is a variant of bant aggro/midrange).
Please keep up the good work and I am sure after the deck proves to be stable enough and get some more 3-1/4-0 it can make to competitive section
Split the finals tonight to go 3-1 in the daily. We played it out anyways after the trade and I easily 2-0'd him, so maybe that wasn't such a good idea. Oh well.
I'm really, really liking this list. So far I'm 12-4 in tournament matches (4 Dailies), which is pretty sweet. It seems to have good match ups across the board, even if Rakdos Aggro is a bit iffy. We totally annihilate the Control decks and have a pretty decent game vs Selesnya if they don't draw Armada Wurm, but can still win if they do.
I've been really underwhelmed with Dreg Mangler so far, but not sure what could replace him. We could go up to 4 Mizzium Mortars and 3 Abrupt Decay main, and maybe add another Underworld Connections since it's good vs anything not-Rakdos. Not sure yet, might try that out.
EDIT: 3-1'd again. I misplayed Round 3 horribly, which isn't the deck's fault and think I had a shot at a 4-0. Beat the mirror in Round 4 which means we both had shots at going 3-1 which is encouraging. His build was more controlling with his only kill conditions being Desecration Demon and Vraska the Unseen's Ultimate. He also had 4 Rakdos's Return main deck and Slaughter Games. Anyways, again thought the deck was very solid. As much crap as I talked about Dreg Mangler he helped me in a few games this Daily, so maybe he's not too bad. Meh, probably still is. Up to 15-5 in tournament matches so far which is pretty good, still looking for an actual 4-0 though.
I put together this deck with a few changes, but one I don't see mentioned is Deathrite Shaman. What are you thoughts on adding that?
Deathrite Shaman is really good. I thought the deck needs a little bit of life gain to help against the rakdos aggro decks and Andre Coimbra suggested it while we were testing this morning.
It is really nice just as an extra 1 drop to help apply pressure early too as well as giving a little more reach. This is what we arrived at after a couple hours:
I put together this deck with a few changes, but one I don't see mentioned is Deathrite Shaman. What are you thoughts on adding that?
I really don't see what this card would be doing in the deck. Scavenge is the only thing this disrupts and I haven't seen a ton of that being used. Other than that it's just a shock every turn that lets Control 2 for 1 you with their Supreme Verdicts and Aggro mostly ignores. Why do you think he'd be good in the deck? The only threats I want to run in the deck need to be hard to remove and win the game in short order, and this fulfills neither of these qualities. Still, I'd like to hear your take on it, as well as the rest of the deck.
As an aside, does anyone know why only some dailies show up on the What's Happening page on Wizards.com? I've 4-0'd/3-1'd 7 out of my last 9 dailies and yet haven't seen my name up there. Just wondering.
TheBlaqDove: That's definitely a more aggressive version of the deck. Why did you go Jund colors when you could have stayed Rakdos and had a more consistent mana base? Do you not think that the Guildgates will slow you down too much? There are plenty of games with my deck that my first play isn't until turn 3 because of all the tapped lands, but mine is designed for the late game so that isn't a problem. Just wondering how you came up with the list.
I really don't see what this card would be doing in the deck. Scavenge is the only thing this disrupts and I haven't seen a ton of that being used. Other than that it's just a shock every turn that lets Control 2 for 1 you with their Supreme Verdicts and Aggro mostly ignores. Why do you think he'd be good in the deck? The only threats I want to run in the deck need to be hard to remove and win the game in short order, and this fulfills neither of these qualities. Still, I'd like to hear your take on it, as well as the rest of the deck.
I think it's just the versatility that draws me to it. The card can generate some strong advantage. Sometimes the extra life will help, others the extra damage. If I add it, it would only be a 2 of, though I am not sure what I would take out. I haven't played in a daily with the deck yet, but it seems much better than the control builds I've tried. It was just a card I would definitely want to keep in mind for the deck.
As an aside, does anyone know why only some dailies show up on the What's Happening page on Wizards.com? I've 4-0'd/3-1'd 7 out of my last 9 dailies and yet haven't seen my name up there. Just wondering.
WotC said on their forums today that it was an intentional change. They are only going to put 1 event per format per day up. They believe the posting of all decklists was leading to, or at least contributing to, solving the formats too quickly.
TheBlaqDove: That's definitely a more aggressive version of the deck. Why did you go Jund colors when you could have stayed Rakdos and had a more consistent mana base? Do you not think that the Guildgates will slow you down too much? There are plenty of games with my deck that my first play isn't until turn 3 because of all the tapped lands, but mine is designed for the late game so that isn't a problem. Just wondering how you came up with the list.
The main thing I saw with that deck was the cackler. I just do not think it's a card that is worth playing. It is a terrible top deck, and it at best medicore any turn after turn 1, and on 1 you're lucky to get in 4 damage for it.
The reason I decided to go jund over just reb/black is because it gives access to dreg mangler and lotleth troll. I haven't had any problems with getting colour-screwed and it's been curving pretty well. And yes, cackler is a bad top deck later in the game, but its a bad top deck for every deck that plays it. I'm going to be testing a pair of Deadbridge Goliath soon in place of the keyrunes since they don't do as much as I was initially hoping they would.
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Greetings!
I appreciate the work you have put into the primer on this deck, and the time you take to respond to the various questions and suggestions you get. It's about time I join the discussion myself, considering that I've ran the deck online for a bit over a week and usually involve myself in the Block forum this time a year.
So, my results with the deck have been very good, to the point where I'm sticking with the deck to at least the release of Gatecrash. It has a lot of things going for it and I don't have to face a ton of mirrors, which is a big deal for me personally. Our lists and matchup-strategies are somewhat different, to the point of me not planning on typing it all out tonight. For now, I'll lead with my own list and where our card-choices differ the most (and opinions clash the strongest):
While we have quite a bit of differences in our lists, there are three that stick out in particular to me:
Desecration Demon
My original list started out with four Desecration Demons and zero Deadbridge Goliaths in the maindeck. After two or three Dailies, the entire playset of Goliaths got in the main, while the Demon got cut to a singleton copy in the sideboard, in lack of a better 75th card. As I first built the deck, I wasn't sure of what the Demon's role would be in the deck, apart from "just another good card". After not long, I decided it was something along the lines of "Roadblock against Aggro and resilient threat against Control". As it turns out, he's neither, on the complete contrary to Goliath. While the GG in Goliath's cost sometimes hurts, it simply offers what you want far more consistently. I usually end up siding all four Goliaths out against Bant Control, and most of them out against URW Control, since it's just too clunky, but otherwise keep it in.
Deathrite Shaman
This card is quite essential to beating the midrange decks that go more aggro than us, basically Golgari and Selesneya. Since the way you beat those often involve having an active Underworld Connections, you need some way to mitigate the life-loss. I'd take almost any other life-gain card in the set over the Shaman, but they're unfortunately all white. While she naturally serves other purposes in those matchups, it's mostly the lifegain and being a body in case of chumping/Troll/scavenge - duty. I also play two after board against Bant Control, for several reasons:
-It's the matchup where I'm the aggressor, but can end up racing, so the life is relevant.
-Angel of Serenity is a card, so the exile is relevant.
-Her ping is usually not relevant enough alone against Control, but the above reasons puts her over the edge.
Slaughter Games
This is not a card. I get that Angel of Serenity can be a beating, but that does not warrant SB-ing in cards like this. With Angel being both very possible to beat and far from their only threat, Slaughter Games simply won't impact the game to a degree that justifies paying 2RB and a card. I played one in the maindeck and two in the SB when starting out with the deck, the one in the main being there since I read your primer and could clearly envision never beating Angel with this deck. As it turns out though, both Armada Wurm and Sphinx's Revelation are just as big, or bigger yet, threats from Control. Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius and Mercurial Chemister are also cards, but nowhere close to the first three mentioned.
One quick note on our matchups:
There is no deck I don't want to face, with the possible exception of Golgari. This deck is well positioned against both aggro (Rakdos and "small" Selesneya) and Control, with midrange/aggro decks being somewhat scary. Selesneya decks going "big" with four Armada Wurms, Keyrunes and maybe some Angels can be tough to beat, while Golgari can fight you on every level, while being better at aggresion. Thoughts on this?
Had been nice to get some serious discussion on this, I really think it's the best deck in Block!
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
Hey guys, I thought I'd add my two cents to the discussion, too.
I run my own more traditional controllish version of Jund. I've been going at least 3-1 in most of the recent dailies, and I've never anyone play my deck or any deck similar to mine so I'm kind of proud of it.
Here's what I've got and I'll explain what I did along the way.
I'm not going to comment on the sideboard because I think that is personal preference.
I'll go ahead and comment on the controversial picks.
I'm gonna have to disagree with Goliat up above with the Deadbridge Goliath. First, getting double forest by turn four isn't always the easiest; almost all of our spells have a swamp cost so the demon is much better priced. Secondly, I just found the goliath lacking power. I originally ran 4 of them, but I cut them all because I was never happy to see them in a game. I run so few creatures that I never use the scavenge, so they are basically a vanilla 5/5 for 4. With the demon, I pack so much removal that his weakness is practically non-existent.
Necropolis Regent is a card that has been mostly ignored by everyone that I added on a whim. Yes, she is a win-more card, but honestly we have so few choices of finishers in RTR that she is the best in our colors. She trades with any creature in emergency circumstances, and when she starts swinging the game ends fast, which is what we want. I tried 2 at first, but she is not legendary and I liked her enough to boost it up to 4 (cutting the dreadbridge goliaths entirely)
Golgari Charm is the winningest card against bant control. Counters supreme verdict if you need a finisher to stick late game, or it deals with those pesky Detention sphere's. I actually ENJOY when my stuff gets sphere'd, because I bring it back at the end of their turn and they have no way to deal with it during my turn. However I find it lacking other matches and am probably moving it to the sideboard.
Treasured Find is more optimally used with Grisly Salvage but I don't think Grisly Salvage is worth it in a spell-heavy deck. However, I still like this card enough to include 4 in my 75. I basically get {B}{R} - Tutor your graveyard for an answer and put it into your hand. Getting back Vraskas, removal, etc, is all very handy, but I don't want too many in my opening hand.
As far as thoughts on the overall deck goes, I'm happy with it. I have a chance against everything, I never feel like I'm outmatched. I really wish we had better ramp and fixing, though. I'm toying around with Grisly Salvage / Mana Bloom / Gatecreeper Vine right now, but I really wish we had farseek.
Good to see new faces in the discussion
While I've discussed the deck quite a bit with Fev on MTGO, I'll try to bring up everything we talked about there, and more, here in this forum.
I've had quite the bad run with the deck in the last three dailies I played it in, going 1-2, 0-2 and 0-2, losing to Golgari in four of those matches. Before everyone starts to panic, I'd like to mention that I've had very good results with the deck before this (meaning three 4-0s and 6/7 3-1s) and that another individual I discussed the deck with last night went 4-0 with my exact 75. Losing is a part of playing (too) much Magic, and there are things to learn from it. Like Golgari being the toughest matchup for this deck, without a doubt. I think I've went about 50/50 against it so far, but it's probably worse than that. I've taken some measures to accommodate that in my new list, which I've arrived at after mulling the deck over with Fev and the "4-0-guy", while doing some thinking on my own:
-I added the third Vraska to the main, since there really aren't that many matchups where I don't want all three. I don't think there are any where I want all four, which is a little weird, but it's only against the aggressive Red deck splashing Blue and against Rakdos without Desecration Demon I just want two. She's a way to deal with fatties, which this deck can't do except for Dreadbore, while potentially generating card advantage and taking over the game.
-I added two Demons to the main, since it's a good card against Golgari. Deadbridge Goliath is still better, in my opinion, since the only matchup I'd rather have Demon is against Golgari, but considering that our worst matchup is Golgari, I'm compromising.
-I cut both Mizzium Mortars from the main, since that card actually is quite bad. All the creatures we really want to kill, it doesn't. I could bring up a bunch of examples, but, in the spirit of keeping it short, I won't unless there's a demand for it. There's naturally still some in the SB for the most aggressive decks.
-I cut the Carnival Hellsteed, since it's just too cute to have it main. While the card has merit against deck with Jace, it just doesn't shine in matchups that aren't near Byes (though this is a little unfair to Bant Control). I've held off Armada Wurms and Deadbridge Goliaths with the Steed several times, but one Selesneya Charm or Vraska later, the 6-mana investment looks rather pathetic.
@Fev -why Carnival Hellsteed? 6 mana is huge, it is very easy to kill (even mortar without unleash). I think I prefer 1 more demon for example
We discussed this online, but it's basically a very good card against deck with Jace. No card, except for Armada Wurm, can trump this the turn you play it, and killing a full Jace or getting in for six guaranteed damage is a big deal - why 26 lands? you have 2 keyrune, not a lot of high cc. I would play 25 (especially without Carnival Hellsteed)
I think 26 lands is very fair, especially considering the Underworld Connections and Scavenge. 25 is a little bit greedy in my mind, but I can see doing it with three or four Rakdos Keyrunes. - could you post your sideboard plans against control and golgari?
With the current configuration:
Golgari
-4 Dread Mangler, 1 Rakdos Keyrune
+4 Auger Spree, 1 Deathrite Shaman
Control (UWR)
-2 Deathrite Shaman, 4 Deadbridge Goliath, 1 Desecration Demon
+2 Golgari Charm, 1 Rakdos Keyrune, 1 Underworld Connections, 1 Carnival Hellsteed, 2 Rakdos's Return
Control (Bant)
This is dependent on what version they're running, how aggressively capable it is. Basically if they run Lyev Skyknight or not. I want two Shamans post-board, but whether I want three or four Connections and the amount of Rakdos's Return is dependent on the particular version of Bant.
One thing I'd like to note is the fact that I'd rather have a lone Demon post-board against UWR, rather than a lone Goliath. It's a very, very close decision to me, but I'd rather test Demon some more now that I've added it. I suppose I could also see cutting the last Hellsteed from the SB and just play two 4-drops post-board instead. Time will tell!
I have 3 pack rat in sb against Selesnya: did somebody test them in this mu?
I have not, but I considered it when I first made the deck. Golgari seems to have some success with the card, though their strategy is clearly different against Selesneya than ours. I think it's their worst matchup, it may also be Bant, but I'm really not sure. Another matchup where Pack Rat could be good is against Golgari itself. I can't really bring myself to do this just yet, or find the space in the SB, but it's a possibility I'll probably try out at some point.
@awjustaguy
I see the merit to most of your inclusions, but not the Necropolis Regent. Especially not playing all four. Carnival Hellsteed seems better to me in almost every case, especially against Control where the haste shines even more.
I hate to be harsh, but I simply think your deck is lacking in resilient threats against Control and severely needs Rakdos's Return main. Return and Connections is Jund's way of breaking parity against control game 1 (if you're not beating their face in), which you need to do before you get run over by Armada Wurms and Revelations. I'm not going to comment on the sideboard because I think that is personal preference.
So is your/mine entire deck, but the reason (I assume) we both post in this forum is to discuss card-choices and end up with a better deck. Since we both play in the same meta (MTGO), I really can't see a reason to share 60 cards, but not 75.
Sorry if I come across as stern, but I'm just not liking your approach to the deck. Rakdos's Return, Dread Mangler and Lotleth Troll are all big parts of why our Control matchup is so good, and they have a lot of merit against more aggressive decks. While your deck may be a little better suited to deal with a Desecration Demon from Golgari, you're simply sacrificing too much for too little.
I've also thought about Gatecreeper Vine, though not tried it out yet. While the mana could be better, Vine just sort of helps out, considering it's Green. I've stopped seeing Bant lists with Vine, that might be a sign it is simply too slow.
EDIT: Just went 4-0 in a Daily with the above list, beating two Golgari decks. Desecration Demon proved his worth, I most certainly felt that everytime I saw a Deadbridge Goliath I wished it was a Demon. I'm not completely won over yet, but either way I'm pleased with being back on track when it comes to plowing trough DEs with Jund
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
Hey, been out of town for the past week and just got home. I'll be back to doing dailies tomorrow evening and will try out Goliat's list for sure.
@Goliat -
For the most part I like your list.
I was skeptical of Desecration Demon at first too but it just hits so hard, and is so big, that if they don't have a removal spell for it immediately you can kill them quickly/shut down their offense. I think, while it definitely has downsides, it is actually a very solid card.
The one creature I'm skeptical of is Dreg Mangler. How has he been for you? He's always been mediocre for me and I was thinking of cutting him for more removal. I mean he's never really completely dead in any match up (blocks in creature match ups, haste attacker in control match ups), but he just always seems just ok. However, while I've been away this Golgari deck has become a real thing and I'm not sure if maybe you just need him in the deck.
Also, I think that Rakdos Keyrune is amazing and could never see going less than 3 (and serious reasoning for going under 4). It's an awesome threat against control, let's you play your spells on curve while leaving up Lotleth Troll regen or Syncopate for 1 protection, ramps to Vraska the Unseen and Rakdos's Return, and many more things. Also, it helps with mana screw which, may seem obvious, but being 3 mana and getting us to 4 is very important since all of our major threats are at 4 and without Keyrune it's almost impossible to justify keeping 2 landers for that reason (although I still mulligan most 2 land hands even with Keyrune). I'd just like to hear your thoughts on having only 2.
Ok, everyone keeps telling me to play Deathrite Shaman so I'll buy a couple and try them out. I think 2 is the right number for something of that effect, so I'll start there. I was getting desperate for life gain and even tried Rakdos Ragemutt in the board (which wasn't as awful as you might think, although still sad).
Is 3 Underworld Connections too many? My latest (non-Dreg Mangler) list moved up to 2 copies main deck but I was always scared I'd draw them against Rakdos aggro and just die. I'm sure with access to some man deck life gain it's a lot easier to have multiples out at once though. Still, 3 seems like too many.
I run 25 lands and I'm fine with it, but I also run 4 Keyrunes so I can operate on less lands than you maybe? I will say that I'd rather be flooded than mana screwed, however I think 25 lands is enough.
Like I said, before I left for my trip there was no Golgari deck and the meta was basically GW, Rakdos and various UWx control decks. While the Rakdos match up was rocky, and multiple Armada Wurms were tough to beat, I felt that the deck was very well positioned in the format. If Golgari is as tough as you say then some changes definitely need to be made (i.e. some amount of main deck Auger Sprees). I'd like to hear more about this match up and what you feel the key cards are in it.
Anyways, like I said I'll be starting up dailies again tomorrow evening starting with Goliat's list and let you know how it goes. Glad this thread is finally getting some action and respect! Look forward to hearing from you all. Feel free to message me on MTGO also, same username.
@awjustaguy
I see the merit to most of your inclusions, but not the Necropolis Regent. Especially not playing all four. Carnival Hellsteed seems better to me in almost every case, especially against Control where the haste shines even more.
I hate to be harsh, but I simply think your deck is lacking in resilient threats against Control and severely needs Rakdos's Return main. Return and Connections is Jund's way of breaking parity against control game 1 (if you're not beating their face in), which you need to do before you get run over by Armada Wurms and Revelations. I'm not going to comment on the sideboard because I think that is personal preference.
So is your/mine entire deck, but the reason (I assume) we both post in this forum is to discuss card-choices and end up with a better deck. Since we both play in the same meta (MTGO), I really can't see a reason to share 60 cards, but not 75.
Sorry if I come across as stern, but I'm just not liking your approach to the deck. Rakdos's Return, Dread Mangler and Lotleth Troll are all big parts of why our Control matchup is so good, and they have a lot of merit against more aggressive decks. While your deck may be a little better suited to deal with a Desecration Demon from Golgari, you're simply sacrificing too much for too little.
First, I did have Rakdos's Return in my list; why did you think I didn't? As far as Carnival Hellsteed goes, I don't want my finisher to be on the ground. Why? As you said already, Bant control is an easy matchup- I need tech against Selesnya and Golgari, and flying does that for me. I don't post my sideboard because it is always changing, although I will say the important cards are 4x Slaughter Games, more Underworld Connections, more treasured find, and more removal such as ultimate price.
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With the full set spoiled it's time to get to work on brewing some sweet Block decks! I wanted to start with Jund for a couple of reasons. First, it seems like the most powerful creatures are Golgari (Lotleth Troll, Dreg Mangler, etc.) and the best removal is Rakdos/Red (Dreadbore, Mizzium Mortars). Secondly, I always start a new format designing a midrange deck since it's the deck that, at least in my eyes, is the least dependent on a meta (control has to be geared to beat the other decks, aggro needs to know which threats to run, and midrange just has to be a solid deck). Let's start with my list:
4 Blood Crypt
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Rakdos Guildgate
7 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Deadbridge Goliath
4 Desecration Demon
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Underworld Connections
3 Vraska the Unseen
3 Rakdos's Return
1 Vandalblast
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Golgari Charm
3 Auger Spree
2 Underworld Connections
3 Slaughter Games
2 Street Spasm
1 Rakdos's Return
This is by no means a perfect list but has proven to run rather well in the limited testing I've been able to do. I'll do a card by card analysis in a sec but first let me give you the outline/philosophy of the deck.
Jund: A GBR midrange strategy that utilizes powerful creatures and removal to survive into the late game and then grind out the match with two-for-ones and relevant top decks.
This is my personal definition of the deck and I think my card choices reflect this philosophy. The deck uses powerful and aggressively costed creatures to survive or put pressure on early (Lotleth Troll and Dreg Mangler), both conditional and unconditional removal to deal with opposing threats (Abrupt Decay and Dreadbore), two-for-ones (Rakdos's Return, Vraska the Unseen, the Scavenge mechanic), and relevant top decks (Underworld Connections, Vraska the Unseen, any creature to be powered up by Scavenge) which all work together to make the deck a potent force at any stage of the game. So with the philosophy of the deck understood let's look at some of the individual card choices.
Lands
I'm not going to pretend to know the optimal land configuration yet, but this looks like a good place to start. All of the dual lands add black so we don't need too many Swamps, and we don't need too much red since it's only on a few cards (and removal doesn't always need to be cast on-curve). You want lots of Forests because, unlike black mana, it's not on all of the dual lands and you want to have access too it early. Like I said, this could be tweaked but I don't think the mana base is horrible or anything and having 16 dual lands is one of the main reasons to play these colors.
4 Lotleth Troll - Actually not too much to say about this guy since it's pretty obvious this card is awesome. Cheap, resilient, good on offense and defense and combos well with Scavenge - one of the best ways to start off the game. Although the power level of this card is obvious the lines of play with him are not. Should you go all in with him? Is he really a 2 drop or do you always have to play him with an extra black mana open? Do you pitch extras in your hand if you don't think you can afford to keep multiple black mana up every turn? These are all questions that will be answered from extensive testing as we figure out what decks are in the format and what our role in the meta is.
3 Dreg Mangler - An aggressively costed aggressive beater, that also provides some card advantage in the late game thanks to its Scavenge ability. A 3 mana 3/3 haster is very good offensively but don't forget it's also great at playing defense if need be. Trade these for a card early then Scavenge it later to make any creature a threat that demands an answer. Also great to be pitched to Lotleth Troll since it provides value from the grave.
4 Deadbridge Goliath - I know, I know. "This card is a vanilla creature - not playable." Exactly what I thought too at first. However, this is block constructed and we don't have too many choices, and after looking through the spoilers a few times I finally realized this guy actually isn't too shabby. First he's a 5/5 for 4 mana, which is definitely above curve. Second he doesn't die to Abrupt Decay or Mizzium Mortars and can block every creature in this deck profitably (I know there will be other decks, but just sayin'). Even when he manages to get killed he can come back to give one of your other creatures 5 +1/+1 counters, which is pretty sweet. He can also gets value from being dumped into the graveyard by Lotleth Troll. Definitely better than he looks.
4 Desecration Demon - This guy is pretty powerful (being a 4 mana 6/6 Flyer and all) but can also be pretty poor against the token decks. On an empty board he just wrecks, but that's only if your opponent has 0 creatures and no way to kill him in hand (and if that's the case you could beat them with anything). In any case, this is the best finisher in our colors and despite all the down sides to him he can put a game away very quickly.
Ok, that wraps it up for the creatures.
Spells
4 Dreadbore - Solid. This kills any creature no matter what size, color or CMC. I have this at 4 because, while I expect there to be control decks with only a few creatures, this can still kill those creatures and their Jace, Architect of Thought. In creature match ups it's good against both aggro and midrange, early or late game. Just a good card to have at all times it seems.
3 Mizzium Mortars - After 4 Dreadbore I wanted another piece of non-Abrupt Decay removal and this seems like the best (although Ultimate Price could be argued for). I was already splashing red so that was fine, and the 4 damage kills a good majority of creatures in the format (4 toughness creatures are usually >3 CMC, sorry Abrupt Decay). While there's not a ton of red mana in the deck it's definitely possible that you could put together enough to use the Overload half of the spell and wipe your opponent's board, followed by smashing in with a giant creature. Not much more to say about this, just more removal.
2 Abrupt Decay - Great removal but actually quite limited for what this deck wants to do. This decks' creatures are some of the most powerful in the format when played on curve and so they can hold off almost all other aggressive creatures, so early game removal like this isn't necessarily a must have. What <4 drop outclasses (not just trades) with Dreg Mangler when you're on the draw, or Deadbridge Goliath when you're on the play? Not many. Even a Lotleth Troll with regen mana up can stop any low drops from trying to get aggressive. So if this card isn't killing low drops what's it doing? Well the fact that it can get rid of problematic creatures is definitely still a plus, but that it can also get rid of any nonland permanent with CMC 3 or less is just too much value for Jund to pass up. This gives an answer to most graveyard hate (Rest in Peace), destroys the Keyrunes people might start playing, and also kills big tokens. With the card being so versatile it's hard to not run a couple main deck as a catch all. Probably will be more in the board but it's definitely not the best creature removal for the deck and it's secondary use is just a glorified Naturalize.
4 Rakdos Keyrune - This, as seen in standard, is really good. It provides ramp, color fixing and a relevant creature when needed, all in one. While we're not necessarily ramping to anything in particular (although it's sweet with Rakdos's Return), our big threats are at 4 mana so making sure we get there is important, as well as having extra mana to cast a 4 drop and something else in the same turn.
1 Underworld Connections - This card is a great way to get some card advantage against the slower decks. You don't want too many since you have no way to gain back life, and also have a lot of other things to spend you mana on, but 1 seems good as a mise. Just helps you draw into more threats later in the game, not too much to say about it.
3 Vraska the Unseen - Was initially against this card but finally came around to it. My original thinking was that her +1 didn't really do anything and paying 5 mana for a Vindicate was pretty bad. I came to realize that this card can get you out of basically any situation by destroying the card that's giving you trouble, and then stick around to do it again in a few turns. I'm not sure how often you'll be making assassins but it's a nice back up plan if it ever comes to that.
3 Rakdos's Return - Love this card. Dominates any mirroring midrange match up (Jund, Junk, GW), and can also really screw up control decks if you hit them for enough. The damage is relevant and can also be redirected to planeswalkers. Definitely a key card in the deck and can give you some occasional free wins. Started at 1 but went up to 3 of these main deck since I seemed to be boarding it in a lot.
Sideboarding
VS UWx Serenity Control
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-2 Dreadbore
-1 Dreg Mangler
-1 Deadbridge Goliath
+1 Golgari Charm
+3 Slaughter Games
+1 Rakdos's Return
+2 Underworld Connections
Here you're just taking out all of your terrible Sorcery speed removal and putting in really good cards. I cut 1 Deadbridge Goliath and 1 Dreg Mangler because I want to bring in 7 cards and they're probably the least impactful of your creatures against them. The game plan is to just play a couple threats and protect them with Golgari Charms and Abrupt Decays and then land a Slaughter Games and/or a big Rakdos's Return. You might have to leave in some amount of Dreadbores against Bant to take care of any Armada Wurms that resolve.
VS 5 Color Control
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-2 Dreadbore
-1 Deadbridge Goliath
+1 Vandalblast
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Rakdos's Return
+2 Underworld Connections
Since I'm not sure what this deck will look like (only that I'm sure some people will build it) I basically just copy pasted the above sideboard plan. Vandalblast is in my sideboard for this specific match up since whatever this monstrosity is trying to cast it probably involves multiple Keyrunes/Chromatic Lanterns.
VS Rakdos Aggro
-1 Underworld Connections
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-2 Rakdos's Return
+1 Mizzium Mortars
+3 Auger Spree
+2 Street Spasm
Golgari Charm hits basically nothing in their deck (Unleash guarantees their toughness is at least 2) and the regen is too slow. All the other cuts should make sense. I cut 1 Vraska because she's just too slow to really impact the board. We bring in a ton of removal and an additional (albeit expensive) sweeper.
VS Jund Mirror
-2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-1 Dreg Mangler
+3 Auger Spree
+2 Underworld Connections
+1 Rakdos's Return
I could certainly be wrong about this (will have to see how other people build their Jund decks) but this seems the way to go. Mizzium Mortars only kills Lotleth Troll (not really) and Dreg Mangler (after they've attacked) so that seems pretty bad. You're basically switching those and Auger Spree which kills both Troll and Mangler before they can do much. Abrupt Decay is cut for basically the same reason (although maybe keep the Decays if your opponent is using Keyrunes too?). Slaughter Games seems slow and unnecessary since you are both doing the same thing you can at least match their powerful plays with your own. Rakdos's Return wins you games on its own since being up cards in the mirror is pure gold. Underworld Connections fills a similar role since you will usually be in a stand off with similar creatures on the board and you can just overwhelm them (maybe keep in Decay to kill your opponents Connections?). Ultimate Price, while it doesn't deal with Troll and Mangler gets rid of Deadbridge Goliath and Desecration Demon. Maybe it's not needed though and I could see an argument for keeping in Abrupt Decay over bringing this in.
VS Selesnya Midrange
-1 Dreadbore
-3 Dreg Mangler
+1 Mizzium Mortars
+2 Street Spasm
+1 Rakdos's Return
I think there will be two versions of this deck. One will be aggressive (Precinct Captains, Call of the Conclave and Loxodon Smiter beat down) and the other more controlling (Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage, Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and Armada Wurm Populate). Against both Mizzium Mortars and Street Spasm seem good, and you'll probably have enough time for a Rakdos's Return. You might have to keep in the Dreadbore to deal with Trostani against the populate deck.
Well that's all the decks I can think of off the top of my head. As you can see all the cards have places they come in at and holes they fill in each match up, so I think the Sideboard is pretty solid. It of course will need to be tuned once the actual metagame is sorted out but this seems good for now. Even if my read is slightly off Jund is really good at having a solid game plan and I know that my deck can just present threats and have removal to put the game away.
Conclusion
Ok, well that's my starting point for this block format. Looking forward to hearing from you guys and seeing what you've come up with. Please be as constructive as possible with your criticisms and give some thought into your posts. You can also contact me on MTGO, same username.
Would you like to explain any of your selections?
Why 4 Abrupt Decay? What do you expect that to hit?
Why Auger Spree over Mizzium Mortars?
4 Underworld Connections seems pretty taxing on your mana (both being double black and taking away a land).
How has Vraska been? Is 4 too many?
Why did you configure your sideboard with those cards? What do you expect the meta to be?
Would really like this thread to be more than everyone just posting deck lists. Try and explain your choices so we can start bouncing around ideas and tuning the deck, please.
Ya, I'm still not sold on having the full 4 Abrupt Decays (at least mainboard), but if the meta ends up calling for it then of course you'd want them. They're decent in the creature matchups but like I said in the OP your creatures usually just outclass theirs so the removal you want is actually for the bigger creatures (>3 CMC). If decks end up running the Keyrunes though I can see this going up in value.
Auger Spree killing Lotleth Troll is pretty sweet and I'm kind of coming around on this card. It'll be interesting to see the split with this and Mizzium Mortars. Still, being 3 mana instead of 2 can really slow you down in the early to mid game so I still think there should be some kind of split main deck.
Ya, I know Underworld Connections is good at getting you cards for the late game but you want to be dropping it and activating it after you've played out most of your threats so I think that 4 is way too many. Also, you have no sort of life gain so having two of these going at a time can only go for so long before they become dead cards. 3 max, and probably 2, is where I'd start with that card.
I'm not exactly sure why you think that Vraska the Unseen gives control a hard time. Sure her -2 is good at dealing with Chromatic Lantern and Jace, Architect of Thought but her +1 is basically useless against them. They can just sit and let her tick up and ultimate and then sweep away the tokens with Supreme Verdict or an Overloaded Mizzium Mortars or Cyclonic Rift. Against creature decks if you +1 then they can just ignore her while they dig for an answer or just kill you, and if you -2 to kill something then she's at only 2 loyalty and easily killed. Maybe she's good as a 4 of since you can just use her as a Desert Twister + gain some life every time they finish her off, then drop another. I'm just not sold that she really does anything in any matchup.
Ya, I don't think we can really build sideboards yet. The thing you have to keep in mind is when side boarding you need to have equal cards coming out as coming in. A lot of 4-ofs in your board is dangerous because you're swapping whole parts of your deck out, and thereby diluting what you originally built your deck to do.
I'll be testing your version out and seeing how it does against some other decks I've built. If anyone wants to test with me on Magic Workstation go ahead and send me a PM and we'll set something up.
Damn, totally forgot about Slaughter Games... Just had to go back and try to add another finisher to my sideboards of all my UWx decks lol. I pretty much gave up on Jund/GW/Rakdos because they really struggle against a resolved Serenity Angel (best card in the format, hands down) and absolutely cannot ever beat two Angels looping each other. Slaughter Games however has me worried as a control player, which means it's a good plan for the Jund deck. Might even go so far as to main deck 1 copy. Definitely has me rethinking the match up.
Think we're (you're) finally getting to a solid Jund list. As much as I ragged on Underworld Connections I do like 1 main deck (I'm a sucker for 1-of draw spells in decks). I think you could replace the Treasure Find with that. Everything else looks pretty good. Still not sure you want the full 4 Vraska the Unseens in the main, and would prob drop one for a mise Rakdos's Return since that card is a sick late game draw (and not too shabby mid game). I think that would be the most solid main deck in the pre-meta era of deck building. We'll just have to wait and see how the other decks shape up and then tune from there (number of Abrupt Decay, Slaughter Games, etc.).
We'll have to do some more testing soon (fixed my MWS) and work out how to play specific match ups (this goes for anyone, just PM me). Anyways, good work!
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Dreadbore
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lotleth Troll
1 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
4 Corpsejack Menace
4 Rakdos Cackler
1 Treasured Find
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Korozda Guildmage
1 Vraska the Unseen
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mountain
3 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Desecration Demon
1 Deadbridge Goliath
1 Jarad's Orders
1 Auger Spree
I like current block formats the most.
Its so limited to its power scale against other formats.
Block constructed should be a more competitive format like it was back in Champions or Ravnica.
Sig by DD Awie by CC
I like current block formats the most.
Its so limited to its power scale against other formats.
Block constructed should be a more competitive format like it was back in Champions or Ravnica.
Sig by DD Awie by CC
Well, up to this point I was pretty dead set on playing UW or Bant control for block but everyone else finally came to realize how absurd Jace, Architect of Thought, Angel of Serenity and Sphinx's Revelation were and the deck is now up to around 280 tickets to put together (330ish for Bant). So, looks like I'm back to Jund as it still looks to be a solid deck (and about half the price). I'm buying all the cards on Friday and this is the final list I'm putting together:
4 Blood Crypt
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Rakdos Guildgate
6 Forest
2 Swamp" target="blank">Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Deadbridge Goliath
4 Desecration Demon
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
3 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Underworld Connections
2 Slaughter Games
3 Vraska the Unseen
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Vandalblast
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Ultimate Price
2 Golgari Charm
3 Auger Spree
2 Underworld Connections
1 Slaughter Games
2 Street Spasm
1 Rakdos's Return
The major change here is the addition of the Rakdos Keyrunes. I felt like When I got flooded there wasn't much to do with the extra mana, and when I got mana screwed it was usually at 3 or 4 which limited me to 1 spell per turn. The Keyrunes fix, or at least help with, both of those problems by giving me an extra guy if I have the spare mana or to help get out of mana screw. Also, I added a main deck Golgari Charm to fight against Supreme Verdict in game 1 and just as an all around good card.
Sideboarding:
VS UWx Serenity Control
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-4 Dreadbore
-1 Deadbridge Goliath
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Ultimate Price
+1 Slaughter Games
+1 Rakdos's Return
+2 Underworld Connections
Here you're just taking out all of your terrible Sorcery speed removal and putting in really good cards. I cut 1 Deadbridge Goliath because I want to bring in 7 cards and he's probably the least impactful of your creatures against them. The game plan is to just play a couple threats and protect them with Golgari Charms and Abrupt Decays and then land a Slaughter Games and/or a big Rakdos's Return. You might have to leave in some amount of Dreadbores against Bant to take care of any Armada Wurms that resolve.
VS 5 Color Control
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-4 Dreadbore
-1 Deadbridge Goliath
+1 Vandalblast
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Ultimate Price
+1 Rakdos's Return
+2 Underworld Connections
Since I'm not sure what this deck will look like (only that I'm sure some people will build it) I basically just copy pasted the above sideboard plan. Vandalblast is in my sideboard for this specific match up since whatever this monstrosity is trying to cast it probably involves multiple Keyrunes/Chromatic Lanterns.
VS Rakdos Aggro
-1 Golgari Charm
-1 Underworld Connections
-2 Slaughter Games
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-1 Rakdos's Return
+1 Mizzium Mortars
+3 Auger Spree
+2 Street Spasm
Golgari Charm hits basically nothing in their deck (Unleash guarantees their toughness is at least 2) and the regen is too slow. All the other cuts should make sense. I cut 1 Vraska because she's just too slow to really impact the board. We bring in a ton of removal and an additional (albeit expensive) sweeper.
VS Jund Mirror
-1 Golgari Charm
-2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-2 Slaughter Games
+2 Ultimate Price
+3 Auger Spree
+2 Underworld Connections
+1 Rakdos's Return
I could certainly be wrong about this (will have to see how other people build their Jund decks) but this seems the way to go. Mizzium Mortars only kills Lotleth Troll (not really) and Dreg Mangler (after they've attacked) so that seems pretty bad. You're basically switching those and Auger Spree which kills both Troll and Mangler before they can do much. Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm are cut for basically they same reasons (although maybe keep the Decays if your opponent is using Keyrunes too?). Slaughter Games seems slow and unnecessary since you are both doing the same thing you can at least match their powerful plays with your own. Rakdos's Return wins you games on its own since being up cards in the mirror is pure gold. Underworld Connections fills a similar role since you will usually be in a stand off with similar creatures on the board and you can just overwhelm them (maybe keep in Decay to kill your opponents Connections?). Ultimate Price, while it doesn't deal with Troll and Mangler gets rid of Deadbridge Goliath and Desecration Demon. Maybe it's not needed though and I could see an argument for keeping in Abrupt Decay over bringing this in.
VS Selesnya Midrange
-1 Golgari Charm
-2 Slaughter Games
-1 Dreadbore
-1 Dreg Mangler
+1 Mizzium Mortars
+1 Underworld Connections
+2 Street Spasm
+1 Rakdos's Return
I think there will be two versions of this deck. One will be aggressive (Precinct Captains, Call of the Conclave and Loxodon Smiter beat down) and the other more controlling (Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage, Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and Armada Wurm Populate). Against both you'll want to bring in Mizzium Mortars and Street Spasm. Against Aggro you probably want the Dreadbore and Dreg Mangler and not bring in the Underworld Connections and Rakdos's Return. Against the Populate deck you might want to take out some amount of spot removal since they'll mostly be making lots of tokens and bring in the Connections and Retun since they let you pull ahead once the inevitable board stall occurs.
Ok, well that's all the decks I can think of off the top of my head. As you can see all the cards have places they come in at and holes they fill in each match up, so I think the Sideboard is pretty solid. It of course will need to be tuned once the actual metagame is sorted out but this seems good for now. Even if my read is slightly off Jund is really good at having a solid game plan and I know that my deck can just present threats and have removal to put the game away. Anyways, see you guys in the dailies! Name is degausser on mtgo too so feel free to message me.
docLS (3-1)
RTR Block Constructed Daily #4453186 on 10/21/2012
8 Forest
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Deadbridge Goliath
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Korozda Guildmage
4 Lotleth Troll
1 Rakdos Cackler
4 Dreadbore
3 Golgari Charm
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Slaughter Games
3 Vraska the Unseen
3 Auger Spree
1 Deadbridge Goliath
2 Jarad's Orders
1 Korozda Guildmage
1 Pack Rat
3 Rakdos Charm
2 Ultimate Price
Edit: It's got more red in it than I thought at first, moved to the Jund Thread
The control decks are ridiculously easy now that I went up to 3 Rakdos's Return main deck. Basically the first turn they tap out you win the game. After that just play 1 threat at a time and you eventually get there.
Rakdos however is very challenging. The problem is that even when you stabilize there's no good life gain in the format so you just eventually die. I'm so desperate for life gain I may put some Stonefare Crocodiles in the board or splash for Heroes' Reunion.
I bought the cards earlier today so haven't gotten a ton of games in yet (on MTGO anyways, I've played a ton on MWS) but I played 5 matches prior to the DE and went 5-0 very easily. You just have some very solid and hard to deal with threats backed up with tons of removal and Rakdos's Return so you're favored in the basically every stage of the game.
Anyways, don't know if anyone cares but thought I'd give an update here. Updated the OP with my current list.
Please keep up the good work and I am sure after the deck proves to be stable enough and get some more 3-1/4-0 it can make to competitive section
I'm really, really liking this list. So far I'm 12-4 in tournament matches (4 Dailies), which is pretty sweet. It seems to have good match ups across the board, even if Rakdos Aggro is a bit iffy. We totally annihilate the Control decks and have a pretty decent game vs Selesnya if they don't draw Armada Wurm, but can still win if they do.
I've been really underwhelmed with Dreg Mangler so far, but not sure what could replace him. We could go up to 4 Mizzium Mortars and 3 Abrupt Decay main, and maybe add another Underworld Connections since it's good vs anything not-Rakdos. Not sure yet, might try that out.
EDIT: 3-1'd again. I misplayed Round 3 horribly, which isn't the deck's fault and think I had a shot at a 4-0. Beat the mirror in Round 4 which means we both had shots at going 3-1 which is encouraging. His build was more controlling with his only kill conditions being Desecration Demon and Vraska the Unseen's Ultimate. He also had 4 Rakdos's Return main deck and Slaughter Games. Anyways, again thought the deck was very solid. As much crap as I talked about Dreg Mangler he helped me in a few games this Daily, so maybe he's not too bad. Meh, probably still is. Up to 15-5 in tournament matches so far which is pretty good, still looking for an actual 4-0 though.
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Deathrite Shaman is really good. I thought the deck needs a little bit of life gain to help against the rakdos aggro decks and Andre Coimbra suggested it while we were testing this morning.
It is really nice just as an extra 1 drop to help apply pressure early too as well as giving a little more reach. This is what we arrived at after a couple hours:
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dreadbore
2x Mizzium Mortars
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Rakdos Shred-Freak
2x Rakdos Keyrune
2x Auger Spree
4x Dreg Mangler
4x Hellhole Flailer
2x Vraska the Unseen
2x Rakdos's Return
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Rakdos Guildgate
4x Golgari Guildgate
4x Mountain
3x Forest
Signature by myself. PM if you'd like a custom sig.
I collect Descent into Madness (25 Eng foil, 1 Jpn Foil, 6 Jpn, 95 Eng)
Decks:
I don't even know anymore
Modern
RUG Eternal Command GUR
UW Caw Blade WU
BGU Vampires UGB
UBG Delver GBU
UBR Delver RBU
BWR Italia Demigod RWB
I really don't see what this card would be doing in the deck. Scavenge is the only thing this disrupts and I haven't seen a ton of that being used. Other than that it's just a shock every turn that lets Control 2 for 1 you with their Supreme Verdicts and Aggro mostly ignores. Why do you think he'd be good in the deck? The only threats I want to run in the deck need to be hard to remove and win the game in short order, and this fulfills neither of these qualities. Still, I'd like to hear your take on it, as well as the rest of the deck.
As an aside, does anyone know why only some dailies show up on the What's Happening page on Wizards.com? I've 4-0'd/3-1'd 7 out of my last 9 dailies and yet haven't seen my name up there. Just wondering.
TheBlaqDove: That's definitely a more aggressive version of the deck. Why did you go Jund colors when you could have stayed Rakdos and had a more consistent mana base? Do you not think that the Guildgates will slow you down too much? There are plenty of games with my deck that my first play isn't until turn 3 because of all the tapped lands, but mine is designed for the late game so that isn't a problem. Just wondering how you came up with the list.
WotC said on their forums today that it was an intentional change. They are only going to put 1 event per format per day up. They believe the posting of all decklists was leading to, or at least contributing to, solving the formats too quickly.
The main thing I saw with that deck was the cackler. I just do not think it's a card that is worth playing. It is a terrible top deck, and it at best medicore any turn after turn 1, and on 1 you're lucky to get in 4 damage for it.
Theros Myth Origins Part 1 WUBRG Part 2 GRBUW Born of the Gods
Beta Client Tutorial
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Signature by myself. PM if you'd like a custom sig.
I collect Descent into Madness (25 Eng foil, 1 Jpn Foil, 6 Jpn, 95 Eng)
Decks:
I don't even know anymore
Modern
RUG Eternal Command GUR
UW Caw Blade WU
BGU Vampires UGB
UBG Delver GBU
UBR Delver RBU
BWR Italia Demigod RWB
I appreciate the work you have put into the primer on this deck, and the time you take to respond to the various questions and suggestions you get. It's about time I join the discussion myself, considering that I've ran the deck online for a bit over a week and usually involve myself in the Block forum this time a year.
So, my results with the deck have been very good, to the point where I'm sticking with the deck to at least the release of Gatecrash. It has a lot of things going for it and I don't have to face a ton of mirrors, which is a big deal for me personally. Our lists and matchup-strategies are somewhat different, to the point of me not planning on typing it all out tonight. For now, I'll lead with my own list and where our card-choices differ the most (and opinions clash the strongest):
4x Blood Crypt
4x Golgari Guildgate
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Rakdos Guildgate
6x Forest
2x Mountain
2x Swamp
Creatures (15)
2x Deathrite Shaman
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Dread Mangler
4x Deadbridge Goliath
1x Carnival Hellsteed
4x Abrupt Decay
Sorceries (8)
4x Dreadbore
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Rakdos's Return
Artifacts (2)
2x Rakdos Keyrune
Enchantments (3)
3x Underworld Connections
Planeswalkers (2)
2x Vraska the Unseen
1x Deathrite Shaman
2x Golgari Charm
2x Mizzium Mortars
4x Augur Spree
1x Rakdos Keyrune
1x Underworld Connections
1x Vraska the Unseen
1x Carnival Hellsteed
2x Rakdos's Return
While we have quite a bit of differences in our lists, there are three that stick out in particular to me:
Desecration Demon
My original list started out with four Desecration Demons and zero Deadbridge Goliaths in the maindeck. After two or three Dailies, the entire playset of Goliaths got in the main, while the Demon got cut to a singleton copy in the sideboard, in lack of a better 75th card. As I first built the deck, I wasn't sure of what the Demon's role would be in the deck, apart from "just another good card". After not long, I decided it was something along the lines of "Roadblock against Aggro and resilient threat against Control". As it turns out, he's neither, on the complete contrary to Goliath. While the GG in Goliath's cost sometimes hurts, it simply offers what you want far more consistently. I usually end up siding all four Goliaths out against Bant Control, and most of them out against URW Control, since it's just too clunky, but otherwise keep it in.
Deathrite Shaman
This card is quite essential to beating the midrange decks that go more aggro than us, basically Golgari and Selesneya. Since the way you beat those often involve having an active Underworld Connections, you need some way to mitigate the life-loss. I'd take almost any other life-gain card in the set over the Shaman, but they're unfortunately all white. While she naturally serves other purposes in those matchups, it's mostly the lifegain and being a body in case of chumping/Troll/scavenge - duty. I also play two after board against Bant Control, for several reasons:
-It's the matchup where I'm the aggressor, but can end up racing, so the life is relevant.
-Angel of Serenity is a card, so the exile is relevant.
-Her ping is usually not relevant enough alone against Control, but the above reasons puts her over the edge.
Slaughter Games
This is not a card. I get that Angel of Serenity can be a beating, but that does not warrant SB-ing in cards like this. With Angel being both very possible to beat and far from their only threat, Slaughter Games simply won't impact the game to a degree that justifies paying 2RB and a card. I played one in the maindeck and two in the SB when starting out with the deck, the one in the main being there since I read your primer and could clearly envision never beating Angel with this deck. As it turns out though, both Armada Wurm and Sphinx's Revelation are just as big, or bigger yet, threats from Control. Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius and Mercurial Chemister are also cards, but nowhere close to the first three mentioned.
One quick note on our matchups:
There is no deck I don't want to face, with the possible exception of Golgari. This deck is well positioned against both aggro (Rakdos and "small" Selesneya) and Control, with midrange/aggro decks being somewhat scary. Selesneya decks going "big" with four Armada Wurms, Keyrunes and maybe some Angels can be tough to beat, while Golgari can fight you on every level, while being better at aggresion. Thoughts on this?
Had been nice to get some serious discussion on this, I really think it's the best deck in Block!
I run my own more traditional controllish version of Jund. I've been going at least 3-1 in most of the recent dailies, and I've never anyone play my deck or any deck similar to mine so I'm kind of proud of it.
Here's what I've got and I'll explain what I did along the way.
4 overgrown tomb
4 blood crypt
3 rakdos guildgate
3 golgari guildgate
4 forest
4 mountain
3 swamp
4 Desecration Demon
4 Necropolis Regent
Spells (20):
4 Auger Spree
4 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Treasured Find
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Golgari Charm
3 Vraska the Unseen
2 Underworld Connections
2 Rakdos Keyrune
I'm not going to comment on the sideboard because I think that is personal preference.
I'll go ahead and comment on the controversial picks.
I'm gonna have to disagree with Goliat up above with the Deadbridge Goliath. First, getting double forest by turn four isn't always the easiest; almost all of our spells have a swamp cost so the demon is much better priced. Secondly, I just found the goliath lacking power. I originally ran 4 of them, but I cut them all because I was never happy to see them in a game. I run so few creatures that I never use the scavenge, so they are basically a vanilla 5/5 for 4. With the demon, I pack so much removal that his weakness is practically non-existent.
Necropolis Regent is a card that has been mostly ignored by everyone that I added on a whim. Yes, she is a win-more card, but honestly we have so few choices of finishers in RTR that she is the best in our colors. She trades with any creature in emergency circumstances, and when she starts swinging the game ends fast, which is what we want. I tried 2 at first, but she is not legendary and I liked her enough to boost it up to 4 (cutting the dreadbridge goliaths entirely)
Golgari Charm is the winningest card against bant control. Counters supreme verdict if you need a finisher to stick late game, or it deals with those pesky Detention sphere's. I actually ENJOY when my stuff gets sphere'd, because I bring it back at the end of their turn and they have no way to deal with it during my turn. However I find it lacking other matches and am probably moving it to the sideboard.
Treasured Find is more optimally used with Grisly Salvage but I don't think Grisly Salvage is worth it in a spell-heavy deck. However, I still like this card enough to include 4 in my 75. I basically get {B}{R} - Tutor your graveyard for an answer and put it into your hand. Getting back Vraskas, removal, etc, is all very handy, but I don't want too many in my opening hand.
As far as thoughts on the overall deck goes, I'm happy with it. I have a chance against everything, I never feel like I'm outmatched. I really wish we had better ramp and fixing, though. I'm toying around with Grisly Salvage / Mana Bloom / Gatecreeper Vine right now, but I really wish we had farseek.
While I've discussed the deck quite a bit with Fev on MTGO, I'll try to bring up everything we talked about there, and more, here in this forum.
I've had quite the bad run with the deck in the last three dailies I played it in, going 1-2, 0-2 and 0-2, losing to Golgari in four of those matches. Before everyone starts to panic, I'd like to mention that I've had very good results with the deck before this (meaning three 4-0s and 6/7 3-1s) and that another individual I discussed the deck with last night went 4-0 with my exact 75. Losing is a part of playing (too) much Magic, and there are things to learn from it. Like Golgari being the toughest matchup for this deck, without a doubt. I think I've went about 50/50 against it so far, but it's probably worse than that. I've taken some measures to accommodate that in my new list, which I've arrived at after mulling the deck over with Fev and the "4-0-guy", while doing some thinking on my own:
4x Blood Crypt
4x Golgari Guildgate
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Rakdos Guildgate
6x Forest
2x Mountain
2x Swamp
Creatures (16)
2x Deathrite Shaman
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Dread Mangler
4x Deadbridge Goliath
2x Desecration Demon
4x Abrupt Decay
Sorceries (6)
4x Dreadbore
2x Rakdos's Return
Artifacts (2)
2x Rakdos Keyrune
Enchantments (3)
3x Underworld Connections
Planeswalkers (3)
3x Vraska the Unseen
1x Deathrite Shaman
2x Golgari Charm
3x Mizzium Mortars
4x Auger Spree
1x Rakdos Keyrune
1x Underworld Connections
1x Carnival Hellsteed
2x Rakdos's Return
-I added the third Vraska to the main, since there really aren't that many matchups where I don't want all three. I don't think there are any where I want all four, which is a little weird, but it's only against the aggressive Red deck splashing Blue and against Rakdos without Desecration Demon I just want two. She's a way to deal with fatties, which this deck can't do except for Dreadbore, while potentially generating card advantage and taking over the game.
-I added two Demons to the main, since it's a good card against Golgari. Deadbridge Goliath is still better, in my opinion, since the only matchup I'd rather have Demon is against Golgari, but considering that our worst matchup is Golgari, I'm compromising.
-I cut both Mizzium Mortars from the main, since that card actually is quite bad. All the creatures we really want to kill, it doesn't. I could bring up a bunch of examples, but, in the spirit of keeping it short, I won't unless there's a demand for it. There's naturally still some in the SB for the most aggressive decks.
-I cut the Carnival Hellsteed, since it's just too cute to have it main. While the card has merit against deck with Jace, it just doesn't shine in matchups that aren't near Byes (though this is a little unfair to Bant Control). I've held off Armada Wurms and Deadbridge Goliaths with the Steed several times, but one Selesneya Charm or Vraska later, the 6-mana investment looks rather pathetic.
@Fev
-why Carnival Hellsteed? 6 mana is huge, it is very easy to kill (even mortar without unleash). I think I prefer 1 more demon for example
We discussed this online, but it's basically a very good card against deck with Jace. No card, except for Armada Wurm, can trump this the turn you play it, and killing a full Jace or getting in for six guaranteed damage is a big deal
- why 26 lands? you have 2 keyrune, not a lot of high cc. I would play 25 (especially without Carnival Hellsteed)
I think 26 lands is very fair, especially considering the Underworld Connections and Scavenge. 25 is a little bit greedy in my mind, but I can see doing it with three or four Rakdos Keyrunes.
- could you post your sideboard plans against control and golgari?
With the current configuration:
Golgari
-4 Dread Mangler, 1 Rakdos Keyrune
+4 Auger Spree, 1 Deathrite Shaman
Control (UWR)
-2 Deathrite Shaman, 4 Deadbridge Goliath, 1 Desecration Demon
+2 Golgari Charm, 1 Rakdos Keyrune, 1 Underworld Connections, 1 Carnival Hellsteed, 2 Rakdos's Return
Control (Bant)
This is dependent on what version they're running, how aggressively capable it is. Basically if they run Lyev Skyknight or not. I want two Shamans post-board, but whether I want three or four Connections and the amount of Rakdos's Return is dependent on the particular version of Bant.
One thing I'd like to note is the fact that I'd rather have a lone Demon post-board against UWR, rather than a lone Goliath. It's a very, very close decision to me, but I'd rather test Demon some more now that I've added it. I suppose I could also see cutting the last Hellsteed from the SB and just play two 4-drops post-board instead. Time will tell!
I have 3 pack rat in sb against Selesnya: did somebody test them in this mu?
I have not, but I considered it when I first made the deck. Golgari seems to have some success with the card, though their strategy is clearly different against Selesneya than ours. I think it's their worst matchup, it may also be Bant, but I'm really not sure. Another matchup where Pack Rat could be good is against Golgari itself. I can't really bring myself to do this just yet, or find the space in the SB, but it's a possibility I'll probably try out at some point.
@awjustaguy
I see the merit to most of your inclusions, but not the Necropolis Regent. Especially not playing all four. Carnival Hellsteed seems better to me in almost every case, especially against Control where the haste shines even more.
I hate to be harsh, but I simply think your deck is lacking in resilient threats against Control and severely needs Rakdos's Return main. Return and Connections is Jund's way of breaking parity against control game 1 (if you're not beating their face in), which you need to do before you get run over by Armada Wurms and Revelations.
I'm not going to comment on the sideboard because I think that is personal preference.
So is your/mine entire deck, but the reason (I assume) we both post in this forum is to discuss card-choices and end up with a better deck. Since we both play in the same meta (MTGO), I really can't see a reason to share 60 cards, but not 75.
Sorry if I come across as stern, but I'm just not liking your approach to the deck. Rakdos's Return, Dread Mangler and Lotleth Troll are all big parts of why our Control matchup is so good, and they have a lot of merit against more aggressive decks. While your deck may be a little better suited to deal with a Desecration Demon from Golgari, you're simply sacrificing too much for too little.
I've also thought about Gatecreeper Vine, though not tried it out yet. While the mana could be better, Vine just sort of helps out, considering it's Green. I've stopped seeing Bant lists with Vine, that might be a sign it is simply too slow.
EDIT: Just went 4-0 in a Daily with the above list, beating two Golgari decks. Desecration Demon proved his worth, I most certainly felt that everytime I saw a Deadbridge Goliath I wished it was a Demon. I'm not completely won over yet, but either way I'm pleased with being back on track when it comes to plowing trough DEs with Jund
@Goliat -
For the most part I like your list.
I was skeptical of Desecration Demon at first too but it just hits so hard, and is so big, that if they don't have a removal spell for it immediately you can kill them quickly/shut down their offense. I think, while it definitely has downsides, it is actually a very solid card.
The one creature I'm skeptical of is Dreg Mangler. How has he been for you? He's always been mediocre for me and I was thinking of cutting him for more removal. I mean he's never really completely dead in any match up (blocks in creature match ups, haste attacker in control match ups), but he just always seems just ok. However, while I've been away this Golgari deck has become a real thing and I'm not sure if maybe you just need him in the deck.
Also, I think that Rakdos Keyrune is amazing and could never see going less than 3 (and serious reasoning for going under 4). It's an awesome threat against control, let's you play your spells on curve while leaving up Lotleth Troll regen or Syncopate for 1 protection, ramps to Vraska the Unseen and Rakdos's Return, and many more things. Also, it helps with mana screw which, may seem obvious, but being 3 mana and getting us to 4 is very important since all of our major threats are at 4 and without Keyrune it's almost impossible to justify keeping 2 landers for that reason (although I still mulligan most 2 land hands even with Keyrune). I'd just like to hear your thoughts on having only 2.
Ok, everyone keeps telling me to play Deathrite Shaman so I'll buy a couple and try them out. I think 2 is the right number for something of that effect, so I'll start there. I was getting desperate for life gain and even tried Rakdos Ragemutt in the board (which wasn't as awful as you might think, although still sad).
Is 3 Underworld Connections too many? My latest (non-Dreg Mangler) list moved up to 2 copies main deck but I was always scared I'd draw them against Rakdos aggro and just die. I'm sure with access to some man deck life gain it's a lot easier to have multiples out at once though. Still, 3 seems like too many.
I run 25 lands and I'm fine with it, but I also run 4 Keyrunes so I can operate on less lands than you maybe? I will say that I'd rather be flooded than mana screwed, however I think 25 lands is enough.
Like I said, before I left for my trip there was no Golgari deck and the meta was basically GW, Rakdos and various UWx control decks. While the Rakdos match up was rocky, and multiple Armada Wurms were tough to beat, I felt that the deck was very well positioned in the format. If Golgari is as tough as you say then some changes definitely need to be made (i.e. some amount of main deck Auger Sprees). I'd like to hear more about this match up and what you feel the key cards are in it.
Anyways, like I said I'll be starting up dailies again tomorrow evening starting with Goliat's list and let you know how it goes. Glad this thread is finally getting some action and respect! Look forward to hearing from you all. Feel free to message me on MTGO also, same username.
First, I did have Rakdos's Return in my list; why did you think I didn't? As far as Carnival Hellsteed goes, I don't want my finisher to be on the ground. Why? As you said already, Bant control is an easy matchup- I need tech against Selesnya and Golgari, and flying does that for me. I don't post my sideboard because it is always changing, although I will say the important cards are 4x Slaughter Games, more Underworld Connections, more treasured find, and more removal such as ultimate price.