Would Azorius Charm be an okay fit for that slot instead of the visionary?
The Visionary provides a body that is almost never useful. It's basically just there to give the same card draw that the Azorius Charm provides.
On the other hand the Charm can remove a creature from the battlefield and/or provide lifelink in a pinch, but then no card draw.
OR what about Divination? 1 Extra mana but you get 2 cards.
OR in a different direction - Downpour. Can be used either for defense or for tempo attacks.
OR Dramatic Rescue - gain 2 life and return target creature to owner's hand
Here's a goofy idea: Ghostly Possession. Satisfies the desire for a flying creature to block other flyers. Also makes the GoST very hard to kill.
I mainboard Azorius Charm and it is amazing for tempo but I also mainboard Elvish Visionary and has been a good chump block against aggro.
Dramatic rescue is something I wouldnt consider. Azorius Charm has much more options and value. Token remove, puts an opponent back a turn, lifegain or card draw. I'm considering mainboarding Selesnya Charms and Azorius Charms in place of Elvish Visionary.
I would discount Inaction Injunction either. It works. Has saved me from Hellriders or other threats that should have ended the game.
If a cantrip and tempo card is what you are looking for Crippling Chill might be an answer.
visionary is just as one dimensional. But if you want to give your opponent something to use his dead spot removal in hand on, be my guest. rancor is the only card that i would see giving this elf an advantage of any of the cards i discussed. Our worst matchup is aggro, how is inaction injunction not relevant?
Here is a simple principle that EVERYONE who posts in this thread should know by now: This deck is strong because
1) It doesn't care what your opponent does --- it just gets damage through
2) It often forces your opponent to play with a 54 card deck instead of a 60 card deck
hexproof is what causes so many matchup problems for other decks -- they are playing with a bunch of dead cards.. why give them an out?
Like if taht's the case, I rather have avacyn's pilgrim so that I can turn 3 geist OR borderland ranger/gatecreeper vine so I can fix my mana base early and have a more relevant body...
I wouldn't say that agro is our worst matchup at all. Control decks with a lot of sweepers are a far worse matchup. As the OP I'm familiar with the reasons why the deck is strong - your opponent using removal on a visionary costs you zero cards and costs them one card. That still keeps the "54 vs 60 card deck" principal in place. This deck does care about what the opponent plays which is why we run removal and some tempo cards, this is not a pure *combo deck.
As the OP I'm familiar with the reasons why the deck is strong - your opponent using removal on a visionary costs you zero cards and costs them one card.
* = edit
Another reason why this cantrip on a stick is solid. That's a Pillar of Flame or a Searing Spear that is not aimed at our heads.
I just started analyzing the list that took 1st in Hawaii states a bit more and I realized that the mana curve is very smooth compared to the versions we've been throwing around. I don't know how much difference that will make but it's an aspect we haven't mentioned up until now.
Another thing I noticed is that the only removal it runs mainboard is detention sphere and selesnya charm. It doesn't run any feeling of dread or negates mainboard, so it minimizes the number of dead cards in game 1.
The combination of these two things would make the deck play a lot more smoothly in theory because you have less dead cards and are able to more effectively use your mana. I'm going to give it a try tonight at FNM.
Another reason why this cantrip on a stick is solid. That's a Pillar of Flame or a Searing Spear that is not aimed at our heads.
but it also becomes a relevant ultimate price/dreadbore that is no longer dead in hand and AT WORST, is a 2 for 1 if u decided to use any enchantment on the creature.
but it also becomes a relevant ultimate price/dreadbore that is no longer dead in hand and AT WORST, is a 2 for 1 if u decided to use any enchantment on the creature.
Well it does still give a free card before that happens so you're not likely to end up down in the exchange. i have to admit to that.
But that's a terrible play if that's all that it comes to. In competitive magic you wouldn't play a vanilla 1/1 for 1G, but that's effectively what you've done if you try to enchant it and it gets dreadbored.
Well it does still give a free card before that happens so you're not likely to end up down in the exchange. i have to admit to that.
But that's a terrible play if that's all that it comes to. In competitive magic you wouldn't play a vanilla 1/1 for 1G, but that's effectively what you've done if you try to enchant it and it gets dreadbored.
that's my point exactly. to say that it is better than any other cantrip choice is very subjective. i guess if we have nothing better to play, then sure. But i'd argue that think twice, inaction injunction and maybe even something like divination is more geared towards our needs. this deck needs to smooth out draws. I'd take borderland ranger and gatecreeper vine for mana fixing over visionary. and that's ust the point i was trying to make is all
I wouldn't say that agro is our worst matchup at all. Control decks with a lot of sweepers are a far worse matchup. As the OP I'm familiar with the reasons why the deck is strong - your opponent using removal on a visionary costs you zero cards and costs them one card. That still keeps the "54 vs 60 card deck" principal in place. This deck does care about what the opponent plays which is why we run removal and some tempo cards, this is not a pure *combo deck.
* = edit
How are a lot of sweepers a problem? Against control you should just play it slow and not over extend. Suit up a critter or two and just stomp them while holding more threats in your hand so right after they wipe, you get right back to slapping them in the face. I would also run thragtusk in the SB for matchups where we just aren't fast enough. Might even warrant a mb inclusion.
How are a lot of sweepers a problem? Against control you should just play it slow and not over extend. Suit up a critter or two and just stomp them while holding more threats in your hand so right after they wipe, you get right back to slapping them in the face. I would also run thragtusk in the SB for matchups where we just aren't fast enough. Might even warrant a mb inclusion.
Control decks have a rough time with this deck. sweepers give value by 2 for 1s or more. if u only drop 1 threat a time u force control decks to burn sweepers on knew threat. sure the might 2 for 1 u if u lose an ethereal armor but this is why rancor goes a long way in the matchup. if u expect a sweeper u should.only be using ethereal armor if u can guarantee lethal or when they play a blocker. because that is when u make the advantage from their sweepers neutral at best.
Really aggressive decks like zombies are much better positioned to beat ourdecks.
The best control deck against us is grixis or mono black variants simply because in addition to mutilated they have sac outlets like lili, barter in blood and tribute to hunger. even then sigarda smashes them.
Testing against Control and Aggro tonight and just have to say Ajani wins games.
Against U/R control I was at 8 life with my opponent left at 12 from a prior swing from Geist. He tapped out for card draw and burn on his turn in order to swing into me with 9/2 Flipped Delver. Made a safe play to drop Ajani gave my Geist double strike and hit him dead on for 12. Geist had a Rancor.
When it comes to control my trick is to force the player into countering an unneeded card that can be a threat. In game 2 all is needed is to bring our own counters into the game and it should be an easy win.
Aggro on the other hand. Played against a fast RakDW deck and without the proper control it's their game but when we hit those Feeling of Dreads, Inaction Injunctions and Azorius Charms slowing them down one turn can easily put the game back in our favor.
After more playtesting I found that Elvish Visionary is not essential and can be completely removed. When he hit the board it was auto killed by both U/R control and RakDW.
My suggestion to help us out against Aggro is life gain. We need it. My suggestions:
Divine Favor is nothing but synergy and keeps Invisible Stalker and Geist out of Bonefire and Mizzium Motor range. That 3 life may or may not be significant enough though and will do some testing.
Thragtusk is obvious. 5 life and if killed replaces himself. My issue is his 5 Mana cost which becomes a speed issue against aggro.
Centaur Healer is a 3/3 body for 3 that nets us 3 life. Comes out faster than Thragtusk but cannot replace himself and can be hit with near most removal.
Going to test out the suggestions as well as put Detention Spheres back in my deck as Oblivion Ring is Solid but against aggro I really needed D-Spheres.
How are a lot of sweepers a problem? Against control you should just play it slow and not over extend. Suit up a critter or two and just stomp them while holding more threats in your hand so right after they wipe, you get right back to slapping them in the face. I would also run thragtusk in the SB for matchups where we just aren't fast enough. Might even warrant a mb inclusion.
Sweepers are the only way to remove our threats and most versions of this deck people are posting run a lot of cards to deal with agro. To your point though, I ran the Hawaii states version at FNM tonight and it fared very poorly against the three agro matchups I had.
that's my point exactly. to say that it is better than any other cantrip choice is very subjective. i guess if we have nothing better to play, then sure. But i'd argue that think twice, inaction injunction and maybe even something like divination is more geared towards our needs. this deck needs to smooth out draws. I'd take borderland ranger and gatecreeper vine for mana fixing over visionary. and that's ust the point i was trying to make is all
I hear you, I rarely have problems with mana in the deck and I'd rather draw into a creature / enchantment rather than a land most of the time.
I played the Hawaii states version of the deck at my FNM tonight and it played very poorly. My FNM shop is very heavy agro, so all but 2 of my matchups were agro. Every deck I playeed against curved out perfectly against me too.
I was lucky enough that even though I was not doing well (I ended the night 2-3) my opponents were all solid players with similar bad luck so we got some quality games in.
I lost some games due to misplays, but my assesment of the cards based on the games I didn't misplay in:
Selesnya charm is really good in this deck, I like it more than I liked Azorius charm while I was running it. When I was short on bodies having a 2/2 vigilance with flash was great because he can swing the next turn then stay open to block. He also helps with recovering from a board wipe. I used it to save geist a few times. I was only able to use it as removal once after Rancoring a Droksol reaver in a control matchup.
Avacyn's pilgrim did absolutely nothing. I was able to drop a geist on turn 2 in one game and that felt good, but other than that I was unhappy to draw him after the game started. Any starting hands with multiples were pretty bad too, this deck doesn't need ramp it needs consistency and card advantage.
Spectral flight was so-so. I'm at the point of adding 2 to my build because it needs more pumps.
I threw in a singleton moorland haunt and it was very relevant in a few matchups, that was my onlv variation from the Hawaii list.
I was missing Feeling of Dread very much in the mainboard.
I didnt think the Hawaii deck would prove to live up to what we are looking for. I felt the 4 mana dorks are worthless unless they are in opening hand. (not worth the later dead card slots) And I was not happy with his lack of FoD, the card is so helpful in this deck especially since we are not creature heavy.
I feel Visionary is a wasted card and not really much help, or any 1-2 casting cost creature without hexproof. This may sound foolish but Inaction Injunction might be a better card in place of that creature drop. The real power in the deck is in the Hexproof package and their Enchant buffs, which there is only ~10 of each. So cards like Injunction that not only stall a creature but help dig for either Enchant support or other needed help seems to be an asset.
With that said I was thinking of testing with *only* hexproof creatures and helpful cantrips to see how things go. Once my opponent sides out their removal because they find them to be dead cards Ill slide in the extra creatures from the SB and take it from there.
I had my doubts about the Hawaii decklist. The Pilgrims aren't necessary. The only way they help is if they get the GoST on the table one turn sooner. Spectral Flight is okay, but so is Bonds of Faith and Divine Favor. We have plenty of "OK" cards to choose from for that part of the curve. I think Bonds of Faith is the answer because it can also serve as creature control.
Round 1: 0-2 vs Selesnya Aggro
G1: My opponent won the dice roll, and curved out perfectly with t1 mana dork, t2 smiter, t3 smiter, t4 sigarda. Basically overwhelming me. I had detention sphered his smiter's, but his sigarda ended up taking me out.
SB: None
G2: I had the unfortunate mulligan to 4 with a singleton temple garden, and abundant growth, geist, and rancor. I never saw blue and i proceeded to lose Round 1.
Round 2: 2-0 VS Bant Ramp
G1: I managed to curve out perfectly with a t1 mana dork, t2 Geist of St. Traft, and proceeded to beat his face in with Rancor + Ethereal Armor in a manner of turns, while he kept at using Farseek.
SB: None
G2: Not quite sure what my opponent was doing, but he played farseek, and managed to get in one Thragtusk on t4. But by then, i was already striking away with my t3 Geist, t4 Rancor + Ethereal Armor + Spectral Flight. I defeated him quickly.
Round 3: 2-1 vs Red Black Zombies
G1: I lost this round to 3 Rakdo's Cacklers by T2, followed by T3 Geralf's messenger, and Falkenrath Aristocrat.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, -3 Selesnya Charm : +3 Knight of Glory +2 Feeling of Dread
Thought Process: My opponent will be having a really fast clock, and the 5 drops are useless, and Selesnya Charm will likely not exile any creatures. Knight of Glory to stall the board, and Feeling of dread are obvious inclusions.
G2: My opponent pillars my t1 Elf. I play Invisible stalker turn 2. I give him Ethereal armor turn 3, and swing in for 2, keeping 2 open for Feeling of dread. Turn 4 I abundant growth, drawing another ethereal amor, i enchant stalker, dealing 7 more. My opponent plays Gravecrawlers, and come into play Ghouls, but those get tapped. I win really quickly afterwards.
SB: No Changes at this point
G3: My opponent starts with t1 Gravecrawler. I get in my t1 elf --> t2 Geist of st. Traft. She plays 2 diregraf ghouls on turn 2, swinging at me for 2, followed my 4 the next turn. I detention sphere her two ghouls, and swing with my geist + spectral flight and ethereal armor. (7 + 4). She plays falkenrath aristocrat, leaving it open to block. I detention sphere her aristocrat, and swing in for my final 12 damage.
Round 4: 2-0 VS Junk Reanimator
G1: I curve out perfectly, t1 elf --> t2 geist, into t3 growth + 2 ethereal armor. I win shortly afterwards. My opponent mulched and grisely salvaged, but drew blanks.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, +2 Rest in Peace
G2: My opponent completely transformed his deck. I noted he sideboarded at least 10 cards. He likely added 4 Centaur Healers, more thragtusks and restoration angels to his deck. I curve out normally, t1 elf --> t2 geist --> spectral flight + ethereal armor. He stalls for multiple turns with lingering souls tokens, however he never drew a black mana source, so he never got to flash it back. He gained a total of 13 life in this game, and he managed to get me down to 8 with a board containing 2 Thragtusk, 1 Centaur Healer, and 1 Spirit Token. He had 1 card in hand, and 4 mana untapped. It was a do or die situation. He was at 10, and i detention sphere his spirit token, and attacked with Geist. I win or die now either way, if his last card in hand was a Restoration Angel, i would've lost. He was bluffing with a forest in hand.
Round 5: 2-1 VS Selesnya Aggro
G1: This game had: T2 Stalker, 2 Rancor, 1 Ethereal Armor. I raced against his Loxodon Smitters, Arbor Elfs, and Avacyn's Pilgrims, but my clock was slightly faster.
SB: I didn't tweak the deck.
G2: My opponent sided in Ray of Revelation. This card is a Major beating. I attacked with my Geist of St. Traft enchanted with Spectral Flight + Ethereal Armor, and he ray of revelation away both, and my poor geist died to his grounded loxodon. I died immediately. My replacement Geist was no match for his onslaught.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, +2 Feeling of Dread
G3: I was very fortunate my opponent didn't get his ray of revelation. I had one feeling of dread in my hand, and it single handed helped me slow down his clock with my Geist + 1 Ethereal Armor, +1 Rancor, +1 Spectral Flight to beat his face down.
Round 6: 0-0 I Drew in VS Bant Control
I knew this guy personally so we drew in intentionally.
So Top 8 we had this for the finals:
2 GW Aggro
1 Jund Midrange
2 Bant Control
1 RB Aggro (Non Zombies, Unleash big dudes beatdown)
1 UW Aggro
1 Bant Enchantment Aggro.
Top 8 Round 1 vs Selesnya Aggro.
G1: Irritatingly i mulliganed to 5, and my opponent outclassed my little Geist of St. Traft + 1 Ethereal Armor, against his Loxodon Smitter, Thragtusk, etc. I drew nothing but land this game. -_-''' He killed me with a Smitter paired with a Silverheart. I had exiled his tusk with a Selesyna Charm.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, +2 Feeling of Dread
G2: I mulligan to 6, keeping a land with 2 temple garden, 1 avacyn's pilgrim, 2 rancor, 1 Geist of St. traft. I figured, i had two chances to get a blue source by turn 3. I play my pilgrim t1, t2 drew growth, played it drawing a forest. Next turn, i figured why not enchant my pilgrim with 2 rancors and beat his face in. I managed to get in 1 hit with this pilgrim for 4, then he kills it with his own pilgrim. i play another pilgrim and buff him up as well. I never drew any blue sources, i had 6 green/white sources, i did get to resolve my feeling of dread i drew into, but never got to flash it back. I had a Geist, spectral flight in my hand when i lost. He oblivion ringed my last pilgrim, and killed me with his Sigarda + Silverheart. What a beating.... -_-'''
Conclusions:
This deck is very BEASTLY. Not drawing into blue really hurts, like badly, cannot wait for Breeding Pool to make things easier. Also, the lack of too many Hexproof creatures. If you do not draw one or have one in your opening hand, it is very brutal. Ray of Revelation really hurts. Getting my Ethereal Armor removed is really bad. And with the flashback, for 3 measly mana, it completely neuters us.
I am lucky i never ran into board wipes in my matches today, and if i did, Negates would do nothing against Supreme Verdict. At that rate, wouldn't it be better to board in Dispel instead? All we care about is the survival of our enchantments, and Dispel would fit the bill at a more efficient cost against Ray of Revelation. I will post more thoughts later. It is super later here in Taiwan, and i want to go to sleep.
Lone Revenant was an experiment i wanted to try out, because, it is a way to look at top cards of my library and draw more gas. More often then not, we are only attacking with one creature, and he fits the: Hexproof, decent body 4/4, and the ability to draw more gas. I never got a chance to use him, but i feel he is work checking out.
I am lucky i never ran into board wipes in my matches today, and if i did, Negates would do nothing against Supreme Verdict. At that rate, wouldn't it be better to board in Dispel instead? All we care about is the survival of our enchantments, and Dispel would fit the bill at a more efficient cost against Ray of Revelation. I will post more thoughts later. It is super later here in Taiwan, and i want to go to sleep.
You stated you never seen any board wipes hit. Well if you did what good will dispel do against Terminus or Mizzum Mortars... or even Bonfire if it's still played.
You mentioned starting a game without a hex creature in had. I thought that would end up being the worst of are problems, which is why I feel we need to take advantage of every cantrip we can to try and recove quick from it.
That was excellent Sushibot. Thank you so much for writing that up.
I agree about blue. Failing to draw blue is one of the worst things. Need Breeding Pool.
Best thing is to cut green down some more. Cut Pilgrim. Add a Glacial Fortress. Breeding Pool will help later. Replace some of those Forests with Islands.
If we re-jigger the lineup to be more like that then the only screw that a lack of forests could give us is to prevent us from casting rancor. That's fine because I think that rancor is in there for reach as much as anything. Late game tramples and recasts after board wipe, stuff like that. Everything else is cantrips unless you run Selesnya charm. I'm basically arguing toward a build that's a little less UWG and a little more UWg.
Also noticed Feeling of Dread was sideboarded in a lot. Should be main imho.
Based on your experiences I just played a handful of games against a solid WG Aggro deck. Wasn't a good matchup. Definitely need to come up with a good plan for these.
I had my doubts about the Hawaii decklist. The Pilgrims aren't necessary. The only way they help is if they get the GoST on the table one turn sooner. Spectral Flight is okay, but so is Bonds of Faith and Divine Favor. We have plenty of "OK" cards to choose from for that part of the curve. I think Bonds of Faith is the answer because it can also serve as creature control.
I went against two blue white humans decks last night, bonds of faith woudn't have done much in that matchup. Maybe as a sideboard card it would do well
Round 1: 0-2 vs Selesnya Aggro
G1: My opponent won the dice roll, and curved out perfectly with t1 mana dork, t2 smiter, t3 smiter, t4 sigarda. Basically overwhelming me. I had detention sphered his smiter's, but his sigarda ended up taking me out.
SB: None
G2: I had the unfortunate mulligan to 4 with a singleton temple garden, and abundant growth, geist, and rancor. I never saw blue and i proceeded to lose Round 1.
Round 2: 2-0 VS Bant Ramp
G1: I managed to curve out perfectly with a t1 mana dork, t2 Geist of St. Traft, and proceeded to beat his face in with Rancor + Ethereal Armor in a manner of turns, while he kept at using Farseek.
SB: None
G2: Not quite sure what my opponent was doing, but he played farseek, and managed to get in one Thragtusk on t4. But by then, i was already striking away with my t3 Geist, t4 Rancor + Ethereal Armor + Spectral Flight. I defeated him quickly.
Round 3: 2-1 vs Red Black Zombies
G1: I lost this round to 3 Rakdo's Cacklers by T2, followed by T3 Geralf's messenger, and Falkenrath Aristocrat.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, -3 Selesnya Charm : +3 Knight of Glory +2 Feeling of Dread
Thought Process: My opponent will be having a really fast clock, and the 5 drops are useless, and Selesnya Charm will likely not exile any creatures. Knight of Glory to stall the board, and Feeling of dread are obvious inclusions.
G2: My opponent pillars my t1 Elf. I play Invisible stalker turn 2. I give him Ethereal armor turn 3, and swing in for 2, keeping 2 open for Feeling of dread. Turn 4 I abundant growth, drawing another ethereal amor, i enchant stalker, dealing 7 more. My opponent plays Gravecrawlers, and come into play Ghouls, but those get tapped. I win really quickly afterwards.
SB: No Changes at this point
G3: My opponent starts with t1 Gravecrawler. I get in my t1 elf --> t2 Geist of st. Traft. She plays 2 diregraf ghouls on turn 2, swinging at me for 2, followed my 4 the next turn. I detention sphere her two ghouls, and swing with my geist + spectral flight and ethereal armor. (7 + 4). She plays falkenrath aristocrat, leaving it open to block. I detention sphere her aristocrat, and swing in for my final 12 damage.
Round 4: 2-0 VS Junk Reanimator
G1: I curve out perfectly, t1 elf --> t2 geist, into t3 growth + 2 ethereal armor. I win shortly afterwards. My opponent mulched and grisely salvaged, but drew blanks.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, +2 Rest in Peace
G2: My opponent completely transformed his deck. I noted he sideboarded at least 10 cards. He likely added 4 Centaur Healers, more thragtusks and restoration angels to his deck. I curve out normally, t1 elf --> t2 geist --> spectral flight + ethereal armor. He stalls for multiple turns with lingering souls tokens, however he never drew a black mana source, so he never got to flash it back. He gained a total of 13 life in this game, and he managed to get me down to 8 with a board containing 2 Thragtusk, 1 Centaur Healer, and 1 Spirit Token. He had 1 card in hand, and 4 mana untapped. It was a do or die situation. He was at 10, and i detention sphere his spirit token, and attacked with Geist. I win or die now either way, if his last card in hand was a Restoration Angel, i would've lost. He was bluffing with a forest in hand.
Round 5: 2-1 VS Selesnya Aggro
G1: This game had: T2 Stalker, 2 Rancor, 1 Ethereal Armor. I raced against his Loxodon Smitters, Arbor Elfs, and Avacyn's Pilgrims, but my clock was slightly faster.
SB: I didn't tweak the deck.
G2: My opponent sided in Ray of Revelation. This card is a Major beating. I attacked with my Geist of St. Traft enchanted with Spectral Flight + Ethereal Armor, and he ray of revelation away both, and my poor geist died to his grounded loxodon. I died immediately. My replacement Geist was no match for his onslaught.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, +2 Feeling of Dread
G3: I was very fortunate my opponent didn't get his ray of revelation. I had one feeling of dread in my hand, and it single handed helped me slow down his clock with my Geist + 1 Ethereal Armor, +1 Rancor, +1 Spectral Flight to beat his face down.
Round 6: 0-0 I Drew in VS Bant Control
I knew this guy personally so we drew in intentionally.
So Top 8 we had this for the finals:
2 GW Aggro
1 Jund Midrange
2 Bant Control
1 RB Aggro (Non Zombies, Unleash big dudes beatdown)
1 UW Aggro
1 Bant Enchantment Aggro.
Top 8 Round 1 vs Selesnya Aggro.
G1: Irritatingly i mulliganed to 5, and my opponent outclassed my little Geist of St. Traft + 1 Ethereal Armor, against his Loxodon Smitter, Thragtusk, etc. I drew nothing but land this game. -_-''' He killed me with a Smitter paired with a Silverheart. I had exiled his tusk with a Selesyna Charm.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, +2 Feeling of Dread
G2: I mulligan to 6, keeping a land with 2 temple garden, 1 avacyn's pilgrim, 2 rancor, 1 Geist of St. traft. I figured, i had two chances to get a blue source by turn 3. I play my pilgrim t1, t2 drew growth, played it drawing a forest. Next turn, i figured why not enchant my pilgrim with 2 rancors and beat his face in. I managed to get in 1 hit with this pilgrim for 4, then he kills it with his own pilgrim. i play another pilgrim and buff him up as well. I never drew any blue sources, i had 6 green/white sources, i did get to resolve my feeling of dread i drew into, but never got to flash it back. I had a Geist, spectral flight in my hand when i lost. He oblivion ringed my last pilgrim, and killed me with his Sigarda + Silverheart. What a beating.... -_-'''
Conclusions:
This deck is very BEASTLY. Not drawing into blue really hurts, like badly, cannot wait for Breeding Pool to make things easier. Also, the lack of too many Hexproof creatures. If you do not draw one or have one in your opening hand, it is very brutal. Ray of Revelation really hurts. Getting my Ethereal Armor removed is really bad. And with the flashback, for 3 measly mana, it completely neuters us.
I am lucky i never ran into board wipes in my matches today, and if i did, Negates would do nothing against Supreme Verdict. At that rate, wouldn't it be better to board in Dispel instead? All we care about is the survival of our enchantments, and Dispel would fit the bill at a more efficient cost against Ray of Revelation. I will post more thoughts later. It is super later here in Taiwan, and i want to go to sleep.
Lone Revenant was an experiment i wanted to try out, because, it is a way to look at top cards of my library and draw more gas. More often then not, we are only attacking with one creature, and he fits the: Hexproof, decent body 4/4, and the ability to draw more gas. I never got a chance to use him, but i feel he is work checking out.
Post more later.
Thanks for the detailed report!
It looks like you were siding out your 5 drops almost every match, and siding in feeling of dread every other match.
As you stated, this deck needs to be able to draw into its hexproofs / enchantments which is why most versions here run Inaction Injunction / Elvish Visionary / Azorius charms.
What were your feelings overall on the avacyn's pilgrim? Do you think he made a difference in the games you had him?
Hmm, Avacyn's pilgrim was only good when i can curve him into a t2 Geist of St. Traft. I have had times when i top decked him, when i would rather have drawn something else instead.
A list made top 8, not sure how I feel about the charm in the mb, but it looks pretty solid other than that.
OH SNAP!!! Thats hot.
I still cant sell myself on the playset of mana dorks. Yes the possible chance of dropping GoST turn 2 is amazing although it is such a dead card if you dont get to play him turn 1. I guess I will need to try it.
I do like Centaur Healer in his SB as well as Resto, although not happy about his lack of negates. Thragtusk is such a great card but I would still prefer Sigarda in my 5 spot, I wonder when and why he chose to side them in.
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I mainboard Azorius Charm and it is amazing for tempo but I also mainboard Elvish Visionary and has been a good chump block against aggro.
Dramatic rescue is something I wouldnt consider. Azorius Charm has much more options and value. Token remove, puts an opponent back a turn, lifegain or card draw. I'm considering mainboarding Selesnya Charms and Azorius Charms in place of Elvish Visionary.
I would discount Inaction Injunction either. It works. Has saved me from Hellriders or other threats that should have ended the game.
If a cantrip and tempo card is what you are looking for Crippling Chill might be an answer.
I wouldn't say that agro is our worst matchup at all. Control decks with a lot of sweepers are a far worse matchup. As the OP I'm familiar with the reasons why the deck is strong - your opponent using removal on a visionary costs you zero cards and costs them one card. That still keeps the "54 vs 60 card deck" principal in place. This deck does care about what the opponent plays which is why we run removal and some tempo cards, this is not a pure *combo deck.
* = edit
Another reason why this cantrip on a stick is solid. That's a Pillar of Flame or a Searing Spear that is not aimed at our heads.
I don't disagree, he's just the most consistent option I've found.
Another thing I noticed is that the only removal it runs mainboard is detention sphere and selesnya charm. It doesn't run any feeling of dread or negates mainboard, so it minimizes the number of dead cards in game 1.
The combination of these two things would make the deck play a lot more smoothly in theory because you have less dead cards and are able to more effectively use your mana. I'm going to give it a try tonight at FNM.
but it also becomes a relevant ultimate price/dreadbore that is no longer dead in hand and AT WORST, is a 2 for 1 if u decided to use any enchantment on the creature.
Well it does still give a free card before that happens so you're not likely to end up down in the exchange. i have to admit to that.
But that's a terrible play if that's all that it comes to. In competitive magic you wouldn't play a vanilla 1/1 for 1G, but that's effectively what you've done if you try to enchant it and it gets dreadbored.
that's my point exactly. to say that it is better than any other cantrip choice is very subjective. i guess if we have nothing better to play, then sure. But i'd argue that think twice, inaction injunction and maybe even something like divination is more geared towards our needs. this deck needs to smooth out draws. I'd take borderland ranger and gatecreeper vine for mana fixing over visionary. and that's ust the point i was trying to make is all
How are a lot of sweepers a problem? Against control you should just play it slow and not over extend. Suit up a critter or two and just stomp them while holding more threats in your hand so right after they wipe, you get right back to slapping them in the face. I would also run thragtusk in the SB for matchups where we just aren't fast enough. Might even warrant a mb inclusion.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Control decks have a rough time with this deck. sweepers give value by 2 for 1s or more. if u only drop 1 threat a time u force control decks to burn sweepers on knew threat. sure the might 2 for 1 u if u lose an ethereal armor but this is why rancor goes a long way in the matchup. if u expect a sweeper u should.only be using ethereal armor if u can guarantee lethal or when they play a blocker. because that is when u make the advantage from their sweepers neutral at best.
Really aggressive decks like zombies are much better positioned to beat ourdecks.
The best control deck against us is grixis or mono black variants simply because in addition to mutilated they have sac outlets like lili, barter in blood and tribute to hunger. even then sigarda smashes them.
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Planeswalkers:
2 Ajani, Caller of The Pride
Sorceries:
3 Inaction Injunction
3 Azorius Charm
3 Feeling of Dread
Enchantments:
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Rancor
4 Abundant Growth
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Hinterland Harbor
3 Island
3 Forest
Testing against Control and Aggro tonight and just have to say Ajani wins games.
Against U/R control I was at 8 life with my opponent left at 12 from a prior swing from Geist. He tapped out for card draw and burn on his turn in order to swing into me with 9/2 Flipped Delver. Made a safe play to drop Ajani gave my Geist double strike and hit him dead on for 12. Geist had a Rancor.
When it comes to control my trick is to force the player into countering an unneeded card that can be a threat. In game 2 all is needed is to bring our own counters into the game and it should be an easy win.
Aggro on the other hand. Played against a fast RakDW deck and without the proper control it's their game but when we hit those Feeling of Dreads, Inaction Injunctions and Azorius Charms slowing them down one turn can easily put the game back in our favor.
After more playtesting I found that Elvish Visionary is not essential and can be completely removed. When he hit the board it was auto killed by both U/R control and RakDW.
My suggestion to help us out against Aggro is life gain. We need it. My suggestions:
Divine Favor is nothing but synergy and keeps Invisible Stalker and Geist out of Bonefire and Mizzium Motor range. That 3 life may or may not be significant enough though and will do some testing.
Thragtusk is obvious. 5 life and if killed replaces himself. My issue is his 5 Mana cost which becomes a speed issue against aggro.
Centaur Healer is a 3/3 body for 3 that nets us 3 life. Comes out faster than Thragtusk but cannot replace himself and can be hit with near most removal.
Going to test out the suggestions as well as put Detention Spheres back in my deck as Oblivion Ring is Solid but against aggro I really needed D-Spheres.
Sweepers are the only way to remove our threats and most versions of this deck people are posting run a lot of cards to deal with agro. To your point though, I ran the Hawaii states version at FNM tonight and it fared very poorly against the three agro matchups I had.
I hear you, I rarely have problems with mana in the deck and I'd rather draw into a creature / enchantment rather than a land most of the time.
I was lucky enough that even though I was not doing well (I ended the night 2-3) my opponents were all solid players with similar bad luck so we got some quality games in.
I lost some games due to misplays, but my assesment of the cards based on the games I didn't misplay in:
Selesnya charm is really good in this deck, I like it more than I liked Azorius charm while I was running it. When I was short on bodies having a 2/2 vigilance with flash was great because he can swing the next turn then stay open to block. He also helps with recovering from a board wipe. I used it to save geist a few times. I was only able to use it as removal once after Rancoring a Droksol reaver in a control matchup.
Avacyn's pilgrim did absolutely nothing. I was able to drop a geist on turn 2 in one game and that felt good, but other than that I was unhappy to draw him after the game started. Any starting hands with multiples were pretty bad too, this deck doesn't need ramp it needs consistency and card advantage.
Spectral flight was so-so. I'm at the point of adding 2 to my build because it needs more pumps.
I threw in a singleton moorland haunt and it was very relevant in a few matchups, that was my onlv variation from the Hawaii list.
I was missing Feeling of Dread very much in the mainboard.
I feel Visionary is a wasted card and not really much help, or any 1-2 casting cost creature without hexproof. This may sound foolish but Inaction Injunction might be a better card in place of that creature drop. The real power in the deck is in the Hexproof package and their Enchant buffs, which there is only ~10 of each. So cards like Injunction that not only stall a creature but help dig for either Enchant support or other needed help seems to be an asset.
With that said I was thinking of testing with *only* hexproof creatures and helpful cantrips to see how things go. Once my opponent sides out their removal because they find them to be dead cards Ill slide in the extra creatures from the SB and take it from there.
Greetings, I took a slight modification of the Hawaii list to a Nagoya GPT, and made top 8 here in Taipei city, and here are my results and notes:
-1 Sigarda, Host of the Herons
+1 Lone Revenant
I explain my reasoning for this change below.
Creatures [14]
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Invisible Stalker
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Lone Revenant
Planeswalkers [2]
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Spells [22]
4 Abundant Growth
3 Detention Sphere
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Rancor
3 Selesnya Charm
4 Spectral Flight
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
2 Azorius Charm
2 Feeling of Dread
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Knight of Glory
3 Negate
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Rest in Peace
Round 1: 0-2 vs Selesnya Aggro
G1: My opponent won the dice roll, and curved out perfectly with t1 mana dork, t2 smiter, t3 smiter, t4 sigarda. Basically overwhelming me. I had detention sphered his smiter's, but his sigarda ended up taking me out.
SB: None
G2: I had the unfortunate mulligan to 4 with a singleton temple garden, and abundant growth, geist, and rancor. I never saw blue and i proceeded to lose Round 1.
Round 2: 2-0 VS Bant Ramp
G1: I managed to curve out perfectly with a t1 mana dork, t2 Geist of St. Traft, and proceeded to beat his face in with Rancor + Ethereal Armor in a manner of turns, while he kept at using Farseek.
SB: None
G2: Not quite sure what my opponent was doing, but he played farseek, and managed to get in one Thragtusk on t4. But by then, i was already striking away with my t3 Geist, t4 Rancor + Ethereal Armor + Spectral Flight. I defeated him quickly.
Round 3: 2-1 vs Red Black Zombies
G1: I lost this round to 3 Rakdo's Cacklers by T2, followed by T3 Geralf's messenger, and Falkenrath Aristocrat.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, -3 Selesnya Charm : +3 Knight of Glory +2 Feeling of Dread
Thought Process: My opponent will be having a really fast clock, and the 5 drops are useless, and Selesnya Charm will likely not exile any creatures. Knight of Glory to stall the board, and Feeling of dread are obvious inclusions.
G2: My opponent pillars my t1 Elf. I play Invisible stalker turn 2. I give him Ethereal armor turn 3, and swing in for 2, keeping 2 open for Feeling of dread. Turn 4 I abundant growth, drawing another ethereal amor, i enchant stalker, dealing 7 more. My opponent plays Gravecrawlers, and come into play Ghouls, but those get tapped. I win really quickly afterwards.
SB: No Changes at this point
G3: My opponent starts with t1 Gravecrawler. I get in my t1 elf --> t2 Geist of st. Traft. She plays 2 diregraf ghouls on turn 2, swinging at me for 2, followed my 4 the next turn. I detention sphere her two ghouls, and swing with my geist + spectral flight and ethereal armor. (7 + 4). She plays falkenrath aristocrat, leaving it open to block. I detention sphere her aristocrat, and swing in for my final 12 damage.
Round 4: 2-0 VS Junk Reanimator
G1: I curve out perfectly, t1 elf --> t2 geist, into t3 growth + 2 ethereal armor. I win shortly afterwards. My opponent mulched and grisely salvaged, but drew blanks.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, +2 Rest in Peace
G2: My opponent completely transformed his deck. I noted he sideboarded at least 10 cards. He likely added 4 Centaur Healers, more thragtusks and restoration angels to his deck. I curve out normally, t1 elf --> t2 geist --> spectral flight + ethereal armor. He stalls for multiple turns with lingering souls tokens, however he never drew a black mana source, so he never got to flash it back. He gained a total of 13 life in this game, and he managed to get me down to 8 with a board containing 2 Thragtusk, 1 Centaur Healer, and 1 Spirit Token. He had 1 card in hand, and 4 mana untapped. It was a do or die situation. He was at 10, and i detention sphere his spirit token, and attacked with Geist. I win or die now either way, if his last card in hand was a Restoration Angel, i would've lost. He was bluffing with a forest in hand.
Round 5: 2-1 VS Selesnya Aggro
G1: This game had: T2 Stalker, 2 Rancor, 1 Ethereal Armor. I raced against his Loxodon Smitters, Arbor Elfs, and Avacyn's Pilgrims, but my clock was slightly faster.
SB: I didn't tweak the deck.
G2: My opponent sided in Ray of Revelation. This card is a Major beating. I attacked with my Geist of St. Traft enchanted with Spectral Flight + Ethereal Armor, and he ray of revelation away both, and my poor geist died to his grounded loxodon. I died immediately. My replacement Geist was no match for his onslaught.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, +2 Feeling of Dread
G3: I was very fortunate my opponent didn't get his ray of revelation. I had one feeling of dread in my hand, and it single handed helped me slow down his clock with my Geist + 1 Ethereal Armor, +1 Rancor, +1 Spectral Flight to beat his face down.
Round 6: 0-0 I Drew in VS Bant Control
I knew this guy personally so we drew in intentionally.
So Top 8 we had this for the finals:
2 GW Aggro
1 Jund Midrange
2 Bant Control
1 RB Aggro (Non Zombies, Unleash big dudes beatdown)
1 UW Aggro
1 Bant Enchantment Aggro.
Top 8 Round 1 vs Selesnya Aggro.
G1: Irritatingly i mulliganed to 5, and my opponent outclassed my little Geist of St. Traft + 1 Ethereal Armor, against his Loxodon Smitter, Thragtusk, etc. I drew nothing but land this game. -_-''' He killed me with a Smitter paired with a Silverheart. I had exiled his tusk with a Selesyna Charm.
SB: -1 Sigarda, -1 Lone Revenant, +2 Feeling of Dread
G2: I mulligan to 6, keeping a land with 2 temple garden, 1 avacyn's pilgrim, 2 rancor, 1 Geist of St. traft. I figured, i had two chances to get a blue source by turn 3. I play my pilgrim t1, t2 drew growth, played it drawing a forest. Next turn, i figured why not enchant my pilgrim with 2 rancors and beat his face in. I managed to get in 1 hit with this pilgrim for 4, then he kills it with his own pilgrim. i play another pilgrim and buff him up as well. I never drew any blue sources, i had 6 green/white sources, i did get to resolve my feeling of dread i drew into, but never got to flash it back. I had a Geist, spectral flight in my hand when i lost. He oblivion ringed my last pilgrim, and killed me with his Sigarda + Silverheart. What a beating.... -_-'''
Conclusions:
This deck is very BEASTLY. Not drawing into blue really hurts, like badly, cannot wait for Breeding Pool to make things easier. Also, the lack of too many Hexproof creatures. If you do not draw one or have one in your opening hand, it is very brutal. Ray of Revelation really hurts. Getting my Ethereal Armor removed is really bad. And with the flashback, for 3 measly mana, it completely neuters us.
I am lucky i never ran into board wipes in my matches today, and if i did, Negates would do nothing against Supreme Verdict. At that rate, wouldn't it be better to board in Dispel instead? All we care about is the survival of our enchantments, and Dispel would fit the bill at a more efficient cost against Ray of Revelation. I will post more thoughts later. It is super later here in Taiwan, and i want to go to sleep.
Lone Revenant was an experiment i wanted to try out, because, it is a way to look at top cards of my library and draw more gas. More often then not, we are only attacking with one creature, and he fits the: Hexproof, decent body 4/4, and the ability to draw more gas. I never got a chance to use him, but i feel he is work checking out.
Post more later.
Thx Brofaux for the awesome Banner.
You stated you never seen any board wipes hit. Well if you did what good will dispel do against Terminus or Mizzum Mortars... or even Bonfire if it's still played.
You mentioned starting a game without a hex creature in had. I thought that would end up being the worst of are problems, which is why I feel we need to take advantage of every cantrip we can to try and recove quick from it.
I agree about blue. Failing to draw blue is one of the worst things. Need Breeding Pool.
Best thing is to cut green down some more. Cut Pilgrim. Add a Glacial Fortress. Breeding Pool will help later. Replace some of those Forests with Islands.
If we re-jigger the lineup to be more like that then the only screw that a lack of forests could give us is to prevent us from casting rancor. That's fine because I think that rancor is in there for reach as much as anything. Late game tramples and recasts after board wipe, stuff like that. Everything else is cantrips unless you run Selesnya charm. I'm basically arguing toward a build that's a little less UWG and a little more UWg.
Also noticed Feeling of Dread was sideboarded in a lot. Should be main imho.
Based on your experiences I just played a handful of games against a solid WG Aggro deck. Wasn't a good matchup. Definitely need to come up with a good plan for these.
I went against two blue white humans decks last night, bonds of faith woudn't have done much in that matchup. Maybe as a sideboard card it would do well
Thanks for the detailed report!
It looks like you were siding out your 5 drops almost every match, and siding in feeling of dread every other match.
As you stated, this deck needs to be able to draw into its hexproofs / enchantments which is why most versions here run Inaction Injunction / Elvish Visionary / Azorius charms.
What were your feelings overall on the avacyn's pilgrim? Do you think he made a difference in the games you had him?
Thx Brofaux for the awesome Banner.
A list made top 8, not sure how I feel about the charm in the mb, but it looks pretty solid other than that.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
OH SNAP!!! Thats hot.
I still cant sell myself on the playset of mana dorks. Yes the possible chance of dropping GoST turn 2 is amazing although it is such a dead card if you dont get to play him turn 1. I guess I will need to try it.
I do like Centaur Healer in his SB as well as Resto, although not happy about his lack of negates. Thragtusk is such a great card but I would still prefer Sigarda in my 5 spot, I wonder when and why he chose to side them in.