It's not so much that he sold his religious convictions, it's just that he never had them. He's always been a scumbag interested in obtaining influence, and he'll do and say what it takes to get that.
For what it's worth, his own explanation for the change is that discussion of Mormonism has become politicized due to the election and having that on his site is detracting from his ability to spread the word - NOT that he doesn't believe that Mormonism is a cult.
That he endorses Mitt is unsurprising. Whether he approves of Mormonism or not, Mitt is the candidate who will best advance his own positions.
EDIT: The explanation was from his website's chief of staff, not from Graham himself.
Ken Barun, chief of staff for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, told the Observer in a statement, "We removed the (cult) information from the website because we do not wish to participate in a theological debate about something that has become politicized during this campaign."
For what it's worth, his own explanation for the change is that discussion of Mormonism has become politicized due to the election and having that on his site is detracting from his ability to spread the word - NOT that he doesn't believe that Mormonism is a cult.
That he endorses Mitt is unsurprising. Whether he approves of Mormonism or not, Mitt is the candidate who will best advance his own positions.
Which is weird, because that's like the worst possible explanation. When it looks like you're being a total hypocrite, the answer is generally not to say, "You guys don't understand, what happened was that I have no personal integrity and am willing to throw my convictions aside in the name of expediency!"
Which is weird, because that's like the worst possible explanation. When it looks like you're being a total hypocrite, the answer is generally not to say, "You guys don't understand, what happened was that I have no personal integrity and am willing to throw my convictions aside in the name of expediency!"
I feel like I missed something. Why is this hypocritical?
What exactly are we debating here? That he sold his religious convictions? Possibly, if they were religious convictions in the first place.
If werebdebating if mormonism is abcult, i disagree.
Being from the midwest, I can say with knowledge that a significant portion of Christians there believe Mormonism is 100% satanic. Catholicism is questionable and misled, but still Christian. They regard Mormonism as NOT Christian.
I feel like I missed something. Why is this hypocritical?
Because he's espousing these beliefs about Mormonism, yet he isn't willing to stick by them when he comes face-to-face with the issue. He chooses the route that gets him influence rather than treating Mormonism as a cult like he's told everyone else to do.
Being from the midwest, I can say with knowledge that a significant portion of Christians there believe Mormonism is 100% satanic. Catholicism is questionable and misled, but still Christian. They regard Mormonism as NOT Christian.
Living in the South for a long time, I can tell you that a not insignificant number of Baptists think that Catholicism isn't properly considered Christianity either.
Because they worship Mary and pray to saints, see - therefore they're not monotheists, therefore they're not Christian.
It might not be the majority feeling, but I had it argued to me more than once that Catholics aren't Christians.
Living in the South for a long time, I can tell you that a not insignificant number of Baptists think that Catholicism isn't properly considered Christianity either.
Because they worship Mary and pray to saints, see - therefore they're not monotheists, therefore they're not Christian.
It might not be the majority feeling, but I had it argued to me more than once that Catholics aren't Christians.
This is true in the midwest too. However, most people tend to accept Catholics slightly more.
Being from the midwest, I can say with knowledge that a significant portion of Christians there believe Mormonism is 100% satanic. Catholicism is questionable and misled, but still Christian. They regard Mormonism as NOT Christian.
I don't really understand this view point and would like to hear that argument. In my world view, a Christian religion is one that follows the teachings of Christ. LDS (Mormon) conforms to that view. The fact that a second scripture was added doesn't detract from the fact that the church is still following the teachings of Christ. And to my knowledge, there isn't anything in the Book of Mormon that is contrary to a Christ centered religion.
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Because he's espousing these beliefs about Mormonism, yet he isn't willing to stick by them when he comes face-to-face with the issue. He chooses the route that gets him influence rather than treating Mormonism as a cult like he's told everyone else to do.
I espouse beliefs that contradict Obama but I firmly endorse him. Am I a hypocrite?
If Graham believes that Romney will best advance the position of his church and its beliefs, he is not being a hypocrite in endorsing him for president even if he also believes that Romney will burn in hell.
If he believes that Romney's campaign has tainted discussion of Mormonism such that it makes his work of saving people through his one true religion harder if he takes a position on it, he is not being a hypocrite to stop talking about it.
Not a person I ever expected to be defending, but there it is.
@drawme: There is a huge difference between not agreeing with everything a candidate does compared to having called a candidates religion a 'cult'. Billy Graham is absolutely a hypocrite in this regard.
But it's not really surprising. Graham has been a politician masquerading as a church figure for 2 decades now, this just makes it very obvious.
I'm disturbed there are churches endorsing a candidate at all. Separation of church and state should go both ways, churches get tax exemptions for a reason, people need places to learn and grow spiritually that separates itself from the adversarial nature of politics. There are issues, and there are policies, and the spirit can help guide views in politics, but it's a personal matter and shouldn't be up for debate in clashing scrutiny of religious tenants and government programs.
The church never wanted to be separate from the state. If anything, they want just the opposite. So this move isn't surprising in that regard, nor would it be fair to hold it against them. It's just disappointing(but still really not surprising) to see Graham, whom has been abundantly critical of Mormonism in the past, support Romney. It is also disappointing to see Romney court/accept this support. It just shows that neither of them has much in the way of integrity(still not surprising).
I don't think it's hypocritical for Billy Graham to endorse Romney while thinking his religion is a cult. I think Mormonism is pretty dumb, yet if I lived in Nevada, I would certainly support voting for Harry Reid (who is Mormon).
Of course, that may be harder to reconcile with Graham's beliefs, because while I can recognize that people can separate their politics from their religion and Mormons aren't all mindless church-bots, Graham's beliefs about cults might suggest that a Mormon can't think independently. I don't know enough about his beliefs.
What is hypocritical is for him to pretend that he no longer thinks it's a cult. He doesn't simply say that while he thinks Mormonism is a cult, he still thinks Romney will do a better job, and that Romney in particular will not try to force Mormonism on everyone else. Instead he's pretending that he doesn't still think it's a cult - because he doesn't want people to be influenced not to vote for Romney is they think that's a dealbreaker.
I support Obama, but I don't pretend that I support keeping troops in Afghanistan, drone strikes, keeping marijuana illegal, his capitulating to the GOP on austerity measures, his light touch on Wall Street, etc. I argue honestly that while Obama is flawed, I think he is the better choice out of Romney and Obama.
What is hypocritical is for him to pretend that he no longer thinks it's a cult. He doesn't simply say that while he thinks Mormonism is a cult, he still thinks Romney will do a better job, and that Romney in particular will not try to force Mormonism on everyone else. Instead he's pretending that he doesn't still think it's a cult - because he doesn't want people to be influenced not to vote for Romney is they think that's a dealbreaker.
That's specifically not the case he's made, as far as I've heard. The case they made that I saw was that having the 'cult' page on their website was interfering with their ability to 'save' folks because of how politically charged Mormonism is right now. Surely that won't strike anyone as hypocritical?
As far as the endorsement goes - Billy Graham thinks both Romney and Obama are damned to burn in hell for eternity, Obama as a child-killing monster, Romney as a Mormon. It's not like he has a good Christian (to his mind) choice here. If he thinks that Romney will be better for the country than Obama - not better than his perception of a good Christian, better than Obama - then the only good conscience decision he can make is to endorse Romney. And he probably does think that; Romney is anti-abortion, Romney will oppose any measures to secularize any area of the country, etc. He can think Romney is a cultist and also think that he'd make a better president than the alternative. There's no contradiction here.
(Now, I think he's a charlatan and I wouldn't describe him as having anything like a good conscience in the first place - but that's an aside. The point I'm making is that his behavior here is consistent with his general positions)
I don't really understand this view point and would like to hear that argument. In my world view, a Christian religion is one that follows the teachings of Christ. LDS (Mormon) conforms to that view. The fact that a second scripture was added doesn't detract from the fact that the church is still following the teachings of Christ. And to my knowledge, there isn't anything in the Book of Mormon that is contrary to a Christ centered religion.
This probably belongs in the religion subthread, but you are right on one point and wrong on another. Most Christians believe that to be a Christian, one follows the teachings of Christ. The key point here, though, is that one of those biblical teachings is that there is no other path to salvation but through Him. Mormonism espouses beliefs that don't jive with that teaching. That's why many (most?) Christians don't consider Mormons as within the fold. Now, saying it's a cult is slightly different, but saying non-Christian is pretty accepted.
This probably belongs in the religion subthread, but you are right on one point and wrong on another. Most Christians believe that to be a Christian, one follows the teachings of Christ. The key point here, though, is that one of those biblical teachings is that there is no other path to salvation but through Him. Mormonism espouses beliefs that don't jive with that teaching. That's why many (most?) Christians don't consider Mormons as within the fold. Now, saying it's a cult is slightly different, but saying non-Christian is pretty accepted.
I was raised Catholic and was taught this view, for what it's worth, which is probably not very much.
This probably belongs in the religion subthread, but you are right on one point and wrong on another. Most Christians believe that to be a Christian, one follows the teachings of Christ. The key point here, though, is that one of those biblical teachings is that there is no other path to salvation but through Him. Mormonism espouses beliefs that don't jive with that teaching. That's why many (most?) Christians don't consider Mormons as within the fold. Now, saying it's a cult is slightly different, but saying non-Christian is pretty accepted.
Can you give any specifics? My impression was the concept of the Trinity vs the Godhead was the key sticking point with most Christians against Mormonism, which doesn't conflict with that at all.
Can you give any specifics? My impression was the concept of the Trinity vs the Godhead was the key sticking point with most Christians against Mormonism, which doesn't conflict with that at all.
I think this website offers a reasonable crash-course into the differences.
First, the qibble over 2 types of salvation seems semantic. Is not "salvation" from the original sin/the fall the reason babies are baptised in Christian tradition? I don't see a meaningful difference. Besides, he's not talking about two separate types of salvation, just that Jesus's gift to man had two effects.
Second, they suggest Mormans believe there is a spiritual checklist that gets them into Heaven. This is not what he said at all, simply that faith AND adherence to God's Commandments will. I also like how they casually omit James 2:14-26 in there insistence that faith alone brings salvation. If that were true wouldn't the commandments be helpful suggestions rather than rules? Who cares what you do as long as you have faith at the end of the day.
I don't deny there are significant doctrinal differences between mainstream Christianity and Mormonism, but I don't see what Illuvator Brightstar meant based on that reading.
Also for the record, I consider Mormonism to be a branch of Christianity
The Mormon doctrine that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are literally three separate gods is alone enough to invalidate them as Christians in the eyes of many of the more traditional Christian denominations.
As I was taught, Catholics will accept a baptism as long as it's done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as three aspects of the one God. That means they accept virtually every Christian baptism except Mormon and Unitarian Universalist as 'legitimate'.
For myself, I don't tend to try to tell someone else what their beliefs are, unless they're so extreme in their hypocrisy that it's just impossible to let it slide - advocating genocide while claiming to be humanitarian, that sort of thing. If Mormons claim to be Christian, then the term Christian is more inclusive than I thought before I knew that. I don't see why an American Evangelical - or the Catholic Church - gets to define what Mormonism is. And I get very tired very quickly of the "No True Scotsman" arguments from one sect of Christianity aimed at another.
Second, they suggest Mormans believe there is a spiritual checklist that gets them into Heaven. This is not what he said at all, simply that faith AND adherence to God's Commandments will. I also like how they casually omit James 2:14-26 in there insistence that faith alone brings salvation. If that were true wouldn't the commandments be helpful suggestions rather than rules? Who cares what you do as long as you have faith at the end of the day.
The contrast isn't checklist vs non-checklist; the contrast is works vs non-works. That is, on one view, there is literally nothing you can do to save yourself; God does it for you, and He makes a decision regardless of what you've done in your life. On the other, you have to have been good.
Then again, Mormons are by far not the only Christian group to advocate works, so it's a bit disingenuous to use that as an element invalidating them as Christians.
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Sounds to me like he has sold his religious convictions.
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If werebdebating if mormonism is abcult, i disagree.
Fair point. Mods feel free to move the thread to water cooler talk.
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That he endorses Mitt is unsurprising. Whether he approves of Mormonism or not, Mitt is the candidate who will best advance his own positions.
EDIT: The explanation was from his website's chief of staff, not from Graham himself.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57535071/billy-grahams-organization-removes-mormonism-its-list-of-cults/ <-- the title is misleading; they didn't remove it from their list of cults, they removed their list of cults.
Which is weird, because that's like the worst possible explanation. When it looks like you're being a total hypocrite, the answer is generally not to say, "You guys don't understand, what happened was that I have no personal integrity and am willing to throw my convictions aside in the name of expediency!"
I feel like I missed something. Why is this hypocritical?
Being from the midwest, I can say with knowledge that a significant portion of Christians there believe Mormonism is 100% satanic. Catholicism is questionable and misled, but still Christian. They regard Mormonism as NOT Christian.
Because he's espousing these beliefs about Mormonism, yet he isn't willing to stick by them when he comes face-to-face with the issue. He chooses the route that gets him influence rather than treating Mormonism as a cult like he's told everyone else to do.
Because they worship Mary and pray to saints, see - therefore they're not monotheists, therefore they're not Christian.
It might not be the majority feeling, but I had it argued to me more than once that Catholics aren't Christians.
This is true in the midwest too. However, most people tend to accept Catholics slightly more.
I don't really understand this view point and would like to hear that argument. In my world view, a Christian religion is one that follows the teachings of Christ. LDS (Mormon) conforms to that view. The fact that a second scripture was added doesn't detract from the fact that the church is still following the teachings of Christ. And to my knowledge, there isn't anything in the Book of Mormon that is contrary to a Christ centered religion.
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I espouse beliefs that contradict Obama but I firmly endorse him. Am I a hypocrite?
If Graham believes that Romney will best advance the position of his church and its beliefs, he is not being a hypocrite in endorsing him for president even if he also believes that Romney will burn in hell.
If he believes that Romney's campaign has tainted discussion of Mormonism such that it makes his work of saving people through his one true religion harder if he takes a position on it, he is not being a hypocrite to stop talking about it.
Not a person I ever expected to be defending, but there it is.
But it's not really surprising. Graham has been a politician masquerading as a church figure for 2 decades now, this just makes it very obvious.
Of course, that may be harder to reconcile with Graham's beliefs, because while I can recognize that people can separate their politics from their religion and Mormons aren't all mindless church-bots, Graham's beliefs about cults might suggest that a Mormon can't think independently. I don't know enough about his beliefs.
What is hypocritical is for him to pretend that he no longer thinks it's a cult. He doesn't simply say that while he thinks Mormonism is a cult, he still thinks Romney will do a better job, and that Romney in particular will not try to force Mormonism on everyone else. Instead he's pretending that he doesn't still think it's a cult - because he doesn't want people to be influenced not to vote for Romney is they think that's a dealbreaker.
I support Obama, but I don't pretend that I support keeping troops in Afghanistan, drone strikes, keeping marijuana illegal, his capitulating to the GOP on austerity measures, his light touch on Wall Street, etc. I argue honestly that while Obama is flawed, I think he is the better choice out of Romney and Obama.
That's specifically not the case he's made, as far as I've heard. The case they made that I saw was that having the 'cult' page on their website was interfering with their ability to 'save' folks because of how politically charged Mormonism is right now. Surely that won't strike anyone as hypocritical?
As far as the endorsement goes - Billy Graham thinks both Romney and Obama are damned to burn in hell for eternity, Obama as a child-killing monster, Romney as a Mormon. It's not like he has a good Christian (to his mind) choice here. If he thinks that Romney will be better for the country than Obama - not better than his perception of a good Christian, better than Obama - then the only good conscience decision he can make is to endorse Romney. And he probably does think that; Romney is anti-abortion, Romney will oppose any measures to secularize any area of the country, etc. He can think Romney is a cultist and also think that he'd make a better president than the alternative. There's no contradiction here.
(Now, I think he's a charlatan and I wouldn't describe him as having anything like a good conscience in the first place - but that's an aside. The point I'm making is that his behavior here is consistent with his general positions)
This probably belongs in the religion subthread, but you are right on one point and wrong on another. Most Christians believe that to be a Christian, one follows the teachings of Christ. The key point here, though, is that one of those biblical teachings is that there is no other path to salvation but through Him. Mormonism espouses beliefs that don't jive with that teaching. That's why many (most?) Christians don't consider Mormons as within the fold. Now, saying it's a cult is slightly different, but saying non-Christian is pretty accepted.
I was raised Catholic and was taught this view, for what it's worth, which is probably not very much.
Can you give any specifics? My impression was the concept of the Trinity vs the Godhead was the key sticking point with most Christians against Mormonism, which doesn't conflict with that at all.
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I think this website offers a reasonable crash-course into the differences.
http://carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine
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First, the qibble over 2 types of salvation seems semantic. Is not "salvation" from the original sin/the fall the reason babies are baptised in Christian tradition? I don't see a meaningful difference. Besides, he's not talking about two separate types of salvation, just that Jesus's gift to man had two effects.
Second, they suggest Mormans believe there is a spiritual checklist that gets them into Heaven. This is not what he said at all, simply that faith AND adherence to God's Commandments will. I also like how they casually omit James 2:14-26 in there insistence that faith alone brings salvation. If that were true wouldn't the commandments be helpful suggestions rather than rules? Who cares what you do as long as you have faith at the end of the day.
I don't deny there are significant doctrinal differences between mainstream Christianity and Mormonism, but I don't see what Illuvator Brightstar meant based on that reading.
Also for the record, I consider Mormonism to be a branch of Christianity
Hewo wittle fishy!
As I was taught, Catholics will accept a baptism as long as it's done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as three aspects of the one God. That means they accept virtually every Christian baptism except Mormon and Unitarian Universalist as 'legitimate'.
For myself, I don't tend to try to tell someone else what their beliefs are, unless they're so extreme in their hypocrisy that it's just impossible to let it slide - advocating genocide while claiming to be humanitarian, that sort of thing. If Mormons claim to be Christian, then the term Christian is more inclusive than I thought before I knew that. I don't see why an American Evangelical - or the Catholic Church - gets to define what Mormonism is. And I get very tired very quickly of the "No True Scotsman" arguments from one sect of Christianity aimed at another.
The contrast isn't checklist vs non-checklist; the contrast is works vs non-works. That is, on one view, there is literally nothing you can do to save yourself; God does it for you, and He makes a decision regardless of what you've done in your life. On the other, you have to have been good.
Then again, Mormons are by far not the only Christian group to advocate works, so it's a bit disingenuous to use that as an element invalidating them as Christians.