MTG Salvation

I was wondering if there were enough solid cards to put together an archetype that centers around playing a very low creature count, and a lot of instants and sorceries to bolster them.

I was thinking about the following cards:

• Talrand, Sky Summoner
  
• Guttersnipe
  
• Delver of Secrets
  
• Nivmagus Elemental

And cards of their ilk.

Obviously the deck maxes out on instants and sorceries and cards that interact with them, and looks for manlands and flashback spells for increased reach and threat density.

We play a similar archetype in counter-burn already, but the creature suite isn't geared to take advantage of that radically different spell/creature ratio that plays so differently from most cube decks. Perhaps a suite of cards like this would improve the overall performance of the archetype?

What other cards are there that play in this vein, and are they even worth using when their applications are more narrow?

Rebound spells would also be a good fit since you get twice the casting value without even having to pay flashback, or they would be if there were more of them, heh. Staggershock is playable in other decks as is, but Surreal Memoir could maybe work if you really want to push the archtype? The blue ones seem too expensive though.

I would also say that you want things that can protect the few creatures you are running, which includes counters, but some redirect effects might not be bad either.

I just don't think Talraand and the Elemental are strong enough cards. Delver and Guttersnipe have a home in many spell-centric UR decks.

You could also try Kiln Fiend, Wee Dragonauts, Goblin Electromancer.

Surrakar Spellblade probably isn't good enough, but would also fit.

To make this kind of de k work, you would need to include overall subpar cards to reach a critical density. Additionally, limited games are usually won by turning dudes sideways, thus pushing this single strategy weakens many other strategies. Counter-burn is geat, because you can build it with universally good cards. This thing here isn't.

I think this would really hurt the flexibility of counterburn decks without adding to their power level much. Right now there are a ton of styles of CB decks, ranging from small creatures, small burn, and cheap/free counters and bounce to expensive creatures, midrange counters, and either cheap burn and/or bounce. And everything in between.

Counterburn decks don't tend to have a high creature count to begin with, but sometimes you luck into a ton of CitP effects, and end up running a decent amount.

A few more cards and this archetype might be something worth including, but for now I think it is constructed only.

The card you mentionned are really good when supported properly (except nivmagus, which I didn't tried). I like Kiln Fiend and Wee Dragonauts also but they are more weaks.

Quote from Phantizle »

A few more cards and this archetype might be something worth including, but for now I think it is constructed only.

I agree overall. I wanted to create this thread to see if that was the case, and it looks like it is. A 360 might be able to get away with it if they play 8 players all the time, but I can't pull it off in my cube with the low critical mass of good instant/sorcery themed Izzet cards. There's a lot of support, but only a handful of worthwhile ones.

Gelectrode is one I like in the mix. I have enjoyed Talrand, and I have had him take over in a counter burn deck. Lay him with counter man up. Opponent tries to blow him up, counte and get the flyer, rinse and repeat. But alot of times I think I would rather have Talrand's Invocation to get teh two bodies immediately, and have the great interactions with Snapcaster and the cards you listed.

I think I will try guttersnipe as I am pretty unimpressed with red 3 drops. In most decks they just feel like utility and are waiting for the 4 drops to finsihe the game. He could give a lot of rearch really fast. If he sticks for just one round it can change you from a long game of buring out their creatures to going ot the dome.

As far as Delver. How good is blue tempo? How much bounce do you have? Cheap card draw? If your blue is all late game with 3+planeswalkers and card draw more than 3 mana he is not great.

Quote from dschumm »

As far as Delver. How good is blue tempo? How much bounce do you have? Cheap card draw? If your blue is all late game with 3+planeswalkers and card draw more than 3 mana he is not great.

Blue tempo is pretty good in my cube, but Delver wouldn't be great in most of those decks, because the spell count is still too low to make it reliable.

I would like him in counterburn if I had enough creatures like it that would take advantage of the high instant/sorcery count. If I had a critical mass of cards like Talrand and Guttersnipe that doubled the efficiency of my spell cards, I could more easily be able to afford to keep my spell count so high. That's kinda the purpose of this thread is to discuss the possibilities of that future archetype.

Guttersnipe seems crazy, in a deck with burn it seems like a must kill before you untap and in U/R counter burn deck he looks amazing. I think he is the only one of these I would support right now, I would like Delver if there were one or two more Brainstorm/Ponder effects.

Quote from MagicFever

I still want to make Delver work in cube :-). Anybody played with him?

he was pretty terrible in my experience. even with a higher spell count in blue i couldn't get much out of him. i think he's strictly for constructed, myself.

Quote from wtwlf123

Blue tempo is pretty good in my cube, but Delver wouldn't be great in most of those decks, because the spell count is still too low to make it reliable.

I would like him in counterburn if I had enough creatures like it that would take advantage of the high instant/sorcery count. If I had a critical mass of cards like Talrand and Guttersnipe that doubled the efficiency of my spell cards, I could more easily be able to afford to keep my spell count so high. That's kinda the purpose of this thread is to discuss the possibilities of that future archetype.

I think Delver is great in the opening followed by tons of spells, but unlike guttersnipe, and tallrand he gets much worse later, and his effectiveness falls off more rapidly as you add more non spells to the deck.

What about Auger of Bolas?

Augur of Bolas is a good suggestion, and a card that would certainly be included in this type of deck. Thanks.

I run Delver in my cube, and I like him, especially with Mystical Tutor! I've built decks with this sort of strategy before, and they're sometimes successful. I have a great fondness for Snapcaster Mage, and he's at his best in a deck like this.

So you can add Mystical Tutor and Snapcaster Mage to the list of cards for this archetype, although it's not a stretch to run 'em.

-rexx

I think in a small pauper cube you can pull of the archtype with Wee Dragonauts, Delver of Secrets, Kiln Fiend, add in the common rebound spells, storm spells. Cantrips like Ponder and Preordain are already in Pauper so no problem there.

Gelectrode got pushed out of most people's Izzet sections, but it is actually a very very solid card.

I couldn't get Delver to be worth a card in my 720. I feel like he might be best suited at ~450-540 though. He's really only a thing when there's four of them in your deck and one in your opening hand.

What about Kaho, Minamo Historian? Maybe too slow but with ample targets...

Quote from JinxedIdol

storm spells

Storm spells do not synergize with Wee Dragonauts or Kiln Fiend especially, you only get one trigger of their ability regardless of your storm count.

Incidentally, most storm spells would be weak in a counterburn deck because you are probably limited in your resources, and playing spells during or at the end of your opponent's turn.

The issue that Dragonauts and the Fiend have is that they encourage you to play your burn on your own turn, which goes against Counterburn's typical strategy. Obviously, it's worth it if it means you're going to win, but if you do that when you're not winning the game, you're suddenly playing a sligh deck rather than coutnerburn.

Quote from dschumm

What about Kaho, Minamo Historian? Maybe too slow but with ample targets...

I think it would be better in a deck with fewer but stronger targets. If this guy gets killed when it's cast, it hurts this archetype quite a bit.

Quote from Zovc

Storm spells do not synergize with Wee Dragonauts or Kiln Fiend especially, you only get one trigger of their ability regardless of your storm count.

They don't. But they both benefit from a high amount of low cost spells and cantrips.

Quote from Zovc

The issue that Dragonauts and the Fiend have is that they encourage you to play your burn on your own turn, which goes against Counterburn's typical strategy. Obviously, it's worth it if it means you're going to win, but if you do that when you're not winning the game, you're suddenly playing a sligh deck rather than coutnerburn.

Yes, Kiln Fiend archtype is really closer to aggro than control obviously.

Guttersnipe went into my multiplayer cube faster than Delver could flip.

Chandra's Spitfire is another potential here... efficient, evasive creature that feasts on cheap red damage spells (but is obviously another that is that much better in multiplayer.... damn, it loves Earthquakes there...).

I guess it comes down to the types of low-cost blue and red instants and sorceries in your cube. If it's full of storm, it's likely not going to work. If it's full of Ponder/Brainstorm effects and Lightning Bolt-esque direct damage, it could well be a viable deck. I'm just yet to see a completely viable list for it yet. Don't think we're far off one, though.

I think we are close, and I am going to look to add a few more cards, especially the guttersnipe and augur. The other day I was control agaist a turn one 2/1 out of a white deck 3 games in a row.

I need izzet in my cube to be more than a deck that drafted the best red and blue stuff and this is probably the way to go. I doubt I will be dropping the mainstays like prophetic bolt, but it gives me motivation to put jilt back in over the Hypersonic Dragon.

I love this deck.

The truth is that the majority of red and blue cheap spells (especially cantrips) go very well in the archetype. It's one reason I run Ponder, Brainstorm, Preordain, Serum Visions, Thought Scour, and Sleight of Hand as one-mana blue cantrips in my ~600. Of course, they're also good in most other blue decks. Of course, Snapcaster Mage is fantastic in the archetype (as he always is in UR), as are Augur of Bolas and Kiln Fiend and Guttersnipe and Talrand.

As for unmentioned cards:
Runechanter's Pike can be a very powerful effect for very little mana (it's also a nice way to get some variety in your equipment).

As mentioned above, Gelectrode is a house.

Chandra's Spitfire, as mentioned above, is often criminally underrated. In many ways it's an improvement over Pyromancer's Swath (more vulnerable, but can be precast and gives an additional 3 damage instead of 2). Have it out with Gelectrode or Guttersnipe and every Ponder means 4 or 5 damage (in addition to the 5 already threatened). One of my best plays in cube involved no plays turn 1 or 2, a Chandra's Spitfire on turn 3, and then a turn 4 kill with Grapeshot pumping Spitfire immensely.

I don't know about Nivmagus Elemental. I have him in, but he hasn't seen any play yet. I think only storm and replicate are really going to make him worthwhile, but he does have a strong upside.


EDIT:
Also, Flame Jab and Shrine of Burning Rage are fantastic. Maybe Shrine of Piercing Vision could be good as well?
A bit about other colors.
I really wanted another color to help this deck out. I've been experimenting with green for Quirion Dryad, Search for Tommorrow, Rampant Growth, Nimble Mongoose, and Werebear. I want there to be more, but I haven't really found it (Call of the Herd / Beast Attack / other token makers?).
Black is also a candidate, for Yawg Will, Toshiro Umezawa, and Nightscape Familiar.
Intimidator Initiate is not good enough.

The way I've been building this in my cube is for it to blend with red aggro/burn (Kiln Fiend, Shrine of Burning Rage, Chandra's Spitfire, Guttersnipe, burn spells), Storm (Rituals, Card Draw, Ramp, Grapeshot), and other useful tools for tempo and control generally (cantrips, cheap spells). Since most of the cards in the deck legitimately belong in other decks, there is relatively little dedicated support that needs to be run. Delver, Nivmagus Elemental (if it lasts), and Runechanter's Pike are probably the most dedicated--everything else works well in other decks.