I still play Beast Within alongside Bramblecrush. It's ability to deal with anything is awesome for green. I run a bit list tho, so FWIW. I can see smaller list's not being interested in this card and preferring to run proactive cards instead.
I still sometimes get completely blindsided by the fact this card can murder creatures. Green vindicate, at uncommon, with a pathetic drawback. Should go everywhere.
When I turned my back on green aggro, I included Beast Within again. It is an answer to everything, and the 3/3 you can handle. Or you can just turn one of your lands in a 3/3 which can be a good play as well.
I love this card. My green decks almost never care about an opposing 3/3 anyway. Randomly turning a land into a 3/3 blocker can be valuable too. A mono-colored, instant speed, vindicate is worlds better than then having a 3/3 anyway.
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We still have it in. Often side board material, but gets sideboarded in a lot. Maybe so often that it proves it was a mistake to not main deck it in the first place.
It is an answer to everything art instant speed, it is a combat trick and protects you from steal effects. Especially the combat trick is easily overlooked. Attacking with a extra haste 3/3 is often quite good and keeps the pressure high.
It is a card especially for top heavy lists.
There are close to no good targets for this in most decks.
Yeah I don't get this either. Every deck has equipment, planeswalkers, or fatties...or something. I am only ever partially sad to be holding it against a really straightforward beatdown deck like mono-red but even then I often turn land #4 into a surprise blocker or something when they are tapped out.
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I still sometimes get completely blindsided by the fact this card can murder creatures. Green vindicate, at uncommon, with a pathetic drawback. Should go everywhere.
EDIT: forgot it's an instant too.
My thoughts exactly. Especially considering that the drawback can easily become an advantage if need be. It's a card that can be both proactive and reactive. Sacrilegious I know, but in Cube I prefer it to Vindicate. It's faster, easier to cast and in a color that benefit more from it than W/B benefits from Vindicate.
This card was bad for us. There are plenty of targets I want answers too, but giving them a 3/3 is an awful drawback.
This is why I originally cut Beast Within but yesterday I would have given my opponents 3/3s for their Hero of Oxide Ridge, Abyssal Persecutor, Bitterblossom and Liliana of the Veil. Though most of the time splashing removal does most of these things more efficiently having on color removal is good.
You just don't want to keep up 3 mana for a spot removal spell in most decks and once your opponent has already gotten the advantage of connecting with a sword once you are already too far behind.
The same thing with a PW: if you trade 3 mana and a card against your opponents 4 mana Garruk you don't make a favorable trade, because they still got 2 3/3s out of the deal.
As for expensive creatures: a good number of the decks just doesn't even play them and the overwhelming majority of the rest comes with removal protection or an ability that generates you some value even if the creature dies.
This is better than I could ever say it. It's a chaos warp that always gets a reasonable return for your opponent in a colour that deals with a wider variety of permanents anyway. It was pretty bad when we tested it.
You just don't want to keep up 3 mana for a spot removal spell in most decks and once your opponent has already gotten the advantage of connecting with a sword once you are already too far behind.
The same thing with a PW: if you trade 3 mana and a card against your opponents 4 mana Garruk you don't make a favorable trade, because they still got 2 3/3s out of the deal.
As for expensive creatures: a good number of the decks just doesn't even play them and the overwhelming majority of the rest comes with removal protection or an ability that generates you some value even if the creature dies.
This is exactly right. Almost every card worth targeting with Beast Within has probably already guaranteed the caster value when it was played. Now I have to give them additional value when it dies? I'd much rather look for better creature removal from my secondary color or pay an extra mana for a Bramblecrush so my opponent doesn't get a free 3/3 beater from my "removal" spell.
But isn't that the benefit of it though? It's cheaper than Bramble Crush and hits creatures, along with being instant. Yes, it gives them a 3/3, which isn't exactly negligible, but it's a catch all, at instant speed.
Also in the case of something like Ajani Vengeant or Tamiyo, the Moonsage that one extra mana and softer colour commitment can make a real difference. Also, sometimes it's relevant because you deny them a hit with something like Jitte or Sword, something you can't do with Bramble Crush, which can also be very relevant.
Really, don't think of it as a Vindicate, think of it as a split card... On one side, it can be a slightly more awkward Gilded Drake but has flash, doesn't have flying, can hit anything, but doesn't give you the card in return and instead destroys it, but it's in green... On the other hand, sometimes it's a 3/3 Flash guy that requires you to sacrifice a permanent, sort of like a more awkward Greater Gargadon that's smaller but requires less nom-noms. It's like Ghor-Clan Rampager, it's not amazing thinking of it in one mode or the other, but the summation of the parts makes it pretty awesome.
I think it's a good card, nothing I'd snap pick, but it does have applications and can provide a decent amount of utility. It does have a decently high skill ceiling though.
I think the utility is good. At least until they give green another Bramblecrush (destroy target Planeswalker) I will run this.
It sucks to trade 1 for 1 and leave your opponet with a 3/3 but its better than losing because they have a troublesome permanent and your green deck is short on outs.
I think the utility is good. At least until they give green another Bramblecrush (destroy target Planeswalker) I will run this.
It sucks to trade 1 for 1 and leave your opponent with a 3/3 but its better than losing because they have a troublesome permanent and your green deck is short on outs.
I don't run beat within in my cube. I was adding Rapid Hybridization to the blue section of my cube which isn't the same as bramblecrush. Blue is a lot like green and doesn't have much creature removal. Rapid Hybridization works a lot like Beast Within except it only costs 1 mana and you can only hit creatures with it. I guess it is better giving your opponent a 3/3 creature token. If they have a real problematic creature it is still better giving then a 3/3 creature token. Normally I would be thinking why you want your opponent to have a free 3/3 creature token.
We've been running Beast Within since its release, with great success - it's not near the chopping block for us.
I think the reason most people had bad results with it is because they tried to play it as a green Vindicate, which it is not. The trick is to play this as a surprise 3/3 beater, with the backup option of removing whatever's going to lose you the game. So, it needs an aggressive shell to realize its full potential.
Played like this, it's been a very powerful and versatile card for us. If you haven't look at the card from this angle before, I'd recommend giving it a second look.
I've got a significant LD package in GR, and I included Beast Within as an extremely flexible spell that can destroy lands and double as removal when the LD plan doesn't work out. It's actually pretty great in that role, and it's pretty great when playing super ramp, as all of your creatures tend to be bigger than a 3/3.
I wouldn't say the drawback is irrelevant, because it's not. I wouldn't put it in an aggro deck, but a certain amount of decks around here value the flexibility of the spell pretty highly.
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I've got a significant LD package in GR, and I included Beast Within as an extremely flexible spell that can destroy lands and double as removal when the LD plan doesn't work out. It's actually pretty great in that role, and it's pretty great when playing super ramp, as all of your creatures tend to be bigger than a 3/3.
I wouldn't say the drawback is irrelevant, because it's not. I wouldn't put it in an aggro deck, but a certain amount of decks around here value the flexibility of the spell pretty highly.
I think it might be best in an aggro deck actually. Aggro decks can use a 3/3 haste creature best and care the least about losing a land with their low curve.
Aggro decks also often have a moment where the assault is petering out. This card either turns a dead land into damage or it gets rid of their most annoying card.
As Fredo wrote looking at it as a Vindicate with a draw back is a mistake. It is a 3/3 Flash, haste creature with a upside of the option of trading their best card for an Elephant. If you only see it as a bad Vindicate it will often be a hard card to play and time. Play it aggresively and see the card shine.
It's a 3/3 flash, not haste. Big difference. And it requires me to sacrifice a permanent in that mode. There are many ways of looking at it but we found it pretty bad in all of them.
This card got cut from a lot of cubes lately. Its on the bench for me right now, but to be honest I still like the card. Thoughts?
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EDIT: forgot it's an instant too.
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It is an answer to everything art instant speed, it is a combat trick and protects you from steal effects. Especially the combat trick is easily overlooked. Attacking with a extra haste 3/3 is often quite good and keeps the pressure high.
It plays a lot better then it looks on paper.
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Yeah I don't get this either. Every deck has equipment, planeswalkers, or fatties...or something. I am only ever partially sad to be holding it against a really straightforward beatdown deck like mono-red but even then I often turn land #4 into a surprise blocker or something when they are tapped out.
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My thoughts exactly. Especially considering that the drawback can easily become an advantage if need be. It's a card that can be both proactive and reactive. Sacrilegious I know, but in Cube I prefer it to Vindicate. It's faster, easier to cast and in a color that benefit more from it than W/B benefits from Vindicate.
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This is why I originally cut Beast Within but yesterday I would have given my opponents 3/3s for their Hero of Oxide Ridge, Abyssal Persecutor, Bitterblossom and Liliana of the Veil. Though most of the time splashing removal does most of these things more efficiently having on color removal is good.
This is better than I could ever say it. It's a chaos warp that always gets a reasonable return for your opponent in a colour that deals with a wider variety of permanents anyway. It was pretty bad when we tested it.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
This is exactly right. Almost every card worth targeting with Beast Within has probably already guaranteed the caster value when it was played. Now I have to give them additional value when it dies? I'd much rather look for better creature removal from my secondary color or pay an extra mana for a Bramblecrush so my opponent doesn't get a free 3/3 beater from my "removal" spell.
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Also in the case of something like Ajani Vengeant or Tamiyo, the Moonsage that one extra mana and softer colour commitment can make a real difference. Also, sometimes it's relevant because you deny them a hit with something like Jitte or Sword, something you can't do with Bramble Crush, which can also be very relevant.
Really, don't think of it as a Vindicate, think of it as a split card... On one side, it can be a slightly more awkward Gilded Drake but has flash, doesn't have flying, can hit anything, but doesn't give you the card in return and instead destroys it, but it's in green... On the other hand, sometimes it's a 3/3 Flash guy that requires you to sacrifice a permanent, sort of like a more awkward Greater Gargadon that's smaller but requires less nom-noms. It's like Ghor-Clan Rampager, it's not amazing thinking of it in one mode or the other, but the summation of the parts makes it pretty awesome.
I think it's a good card, nothing I'd snap pick, but it does have applications and can provide a decent amount of utility. It does have a decently high skill ceiling though.
It sucks to trade 1 for 1 and leave your opponet with a 3/3 but its better than losing because they have a troublesome permanent and your green deck is short on outs.
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I think the reason most people had bad results with it is because they tried to play it as a green Vindicate, which it is not. The trick is to play this as a surprise 3/3 beater, with the backup option of removing whatever's going to lose you the game. So, it needs an aggressive shell to realize its full potential.
Played like this, it's been a very powerful and versatile card for us. If you haven't look at the card from this angle before, I'd recommend giving it a second look.
I wouldn't say the drawback is irrelevant, because it's not. I wouldn't put it in an aggro deck, but a certain amount of decks around here value the flexibility of the spell pretty highly.
I think it might be best in an aggro deck actually. Aggro decks can use a 3/3 haste creature best and care the least about losing a land with their low curve.
Aggro decks also often have a moment where the assault is petering out. This card either turns a dead land into damage or it gets rid of their most annoying card.
As Fredo wrote looking at it as a Vindicate with a draw back is a mistake. It is a 3/3 Flash, haste creature with a upside of the option of trading their best card for an Elephant. If you only see it as a bad Vindicate it will often be a hard card to play and time. Play it aggresively and see the card shine.
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