I decided to make a split card cube, and though it's taken a lot of thinking and research, but I think I've got the cube list pretty well narrowed down. Could I get some feedback on the pairings on this list? I was seeking to have a somewhat balanced, powerful cube with a good amount of archetypes supported. If you have card suggestions, please explain why you'd change what you change... I've seen a lot of feedback on MTGSal that's... not as good.
I want to get the list pretty tuned before I start making the cards. And I don't really want to see 50 cubes out there the same as mine, so I won't leave the spreadsheet up for long.
Lotsa decks are going to want City of Brass, which puts BR at a disadvantage for getting their dual lands. I'd therefore match City of Brass with something that likewise is going to fit into a lot of decks, like, I dunno, Port or something.
Lotsa decks are going to want City of Brass, which puts BR at a disadvantage for getting their dual lands. I'd therefore match City of Brass with something that likewise is going to fit into a lot of decks, like, I dunno, Port or something.
Good advice, and an easy fix. what pairings in the land or multicolor area would be better?
At first glance, it seems you've tried to do a solid card//whacky card split. (Savannah Lions // Open the Vaults). That looks like a good idea, but breaking away from this pattern with a few cards could work to spice things up a little.
I think what deserves most attention are graveyard interactions. Carnophage//Unburial Rites, Squee//Volcanic Fallout seem predestined to form the core or at least a very important element of the way this plays out.
Why not go a little more bonkers? Combine Lingering Souls with Marsh Flats, for instance?
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
At first glance, it seems you've tried to do a solid card//whacky card split. (Savannah Lions // Open the Vaults). That looks like a good idea, but breaking away from this pattern with a few cards could work to spice things up a little.
I think what deserves most attention are graveyard interactions. Carnophage//Unburial Rites, Squee//Volcanic Fallout seem predestined to form the core or at least a very important element of the way this plays out.
Why not go a little more bonkers? Combine Lingering Souls with Marsh Flats, for instance?
Yikes! Squee/anything of value is pretty insane. Well-costed flashback (things like Souls, Rites, Deep Analysis, etc) attached to things that end up in the graveyard easily (cheap creatures, fetchlands, cards like cantrips/removal/countermagic) also seem like major value city.
Force of Will//Deep Analysis seems like one of the scarier cards I can think of - though the other three mentioned here are pretty bananas too. Some others:
Yikes! Squee/anything of value is pretty insane. Well-costed flashback (things like Souls, Rites, Deep Analysis, etc) attached to things that end up in the graveyard easily (cheap creatures, fetchlands, cards like cantrips/removal/countermagic) also seem like major value city.
Force of Will//Deep Analysis seems like one of the scarier cards I can think of - though the other three mentioned here are pretty bananas too. Some others:
I think in the "original" split card cube... No wait, I don't like this word. Every cube is original. In what I believe was the first split card cube (or the first I heard of), Squee comes attached to Terramorphic Expanse. Talk about value...
These combinations are just brutal. However, this is cube, so this would be kinda legit I guess.
More good cards for such shenanigans:
Chandra's Phoenix (As I understand the rules, this being strapped to a burn spell would not result in buyback 0, so that's fine-ish. Combine with Mogg Fanatic?)
Firewing Phoenix
Magma Phoenix
Hammer of Bogardan
Bloodghast
Twisted Abomination
Transmute cards
Unearth creatures (Keldon Marauders//Hellspark Elemental anyone?)
...
Edit: I am salvaging Nof's link for ideas/random musings. For people who don't speak french:
There seem to be land//nonland pairings in this cube. That looks good.
Cascade is reported to be busted. They speak of BBE into Sol Ring // Time Stretch.
They make a split permanent//nonpermanent. That's for ease of keeping track of what's actually on the battlefield.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I think in the "original" split card cube... No wait, I don't like this word. Every cube is original. In what I believe was the first split card cube (or the first I heard of), Squee comes attached to Terramorphic Expanse. Talk about value...
These combinations are just brutal. However, this is cube, so this would be kinda legit I guess.
More good cards for such shenanigans:
Chandra's Phoenix (As I understand the rules, this being strapped to a burn spell would not result in buyback 0, so that's fine-ish. Combine with Mogg Fanatic?)
Firewing Phoenix
Magma Phoenix
Hammer of Bogardan
Bloodghast
Twisted Abomination
Transmute cards
Unearth creatures (Keldon Marauders//Hellspark Elemental anyone?)
...
Edit: I am salvaging Nof's link for ideas/random musings. For people who don't speak french:
There seem to be land//nonland pairings in this cube. That looks good.
Cascade is reported to be busted. They speak of BBE into Sol Ring // Time Stretch.
They make a split permanent//nonpermanent. That's for ease of keeping track of what's actually on the battlefield.
Madness.
Another way to handle Permanent//Permanent would be to print them with alternate orientations. So no matter which way you play the card, the left side of it faces "up", and that's the side in play. It gets a little squicky when it comes to tapping, but as long as you tap in a consistent fashion it should be alright.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
My intention was to have reasons to pick the "other" half of a "good" card... like the savannah lions (weenie staple) vs Open the Vaults (card that's key to a combo). I wanted there to be some situations where the choice in half wasn't obvious. This was harder for more powerful cards.
I also wanted one half to be a permanent and the other to be a non permanent, though it isn't 100%. My intent was, once a card hits the graveyard, both "halves" are in the graveyard, making for more shenanigans. So yes, "Well-costed flashback (things like Souls, Rites, Deep Analysis, etc) attached to things that end up in the graveyard easily (cheap creatures, fetchlands, cards like cantrips/removal/countermagic) also seem like major value city." That was somewhat intentional. I largely avoided cascade save for Bloodbraid Elf. The Chandra's Phoenix suggestion is a very good one, though, I will implement that... trying pairing it with Splinter Twin?
My intention was to have reasons to pick the "other" half of a "good" card... like the savannah lions (weenie staple) vs Open the Vaults (card that's key to a combo). I wanted there to be some situations where the choice in half wasn't obvious. This was harder for more powerful cards.
I also wanted one half to be a permanent and the other to be a non permanent, though it isn't 100%. My intent was, once a card hits the graveyard, both "halves" are in the graveyard, making for more shenanigans. So yes, "Well-costed flashback (things like Souls, Rites, Deep Analysis, etc) attached to things that end up in the graveyard easily (cheap creatures, fetchlands, cards like cantrips/removal/countermagic) also seem like major value city." That was somewhat intentional. I largely avoided cascade save for Bloodbraid Elf. The Chandra's Phoenix suggestion is a very good one, though, I will implement that... trying pairing it with Splinter Twin?
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Good advice, and an easy fix. what pairings in the land or multicolor area would be better?
All I'm saying is to make both cards have the same colour requirements, as you've done with spells. So go with Blood Crypt//BR Man Land for example. That way the BR player has to make a tough decision when playing the card, as opposed to it being an easy draft pick and only the one half sees play in the deck.
All I'm saying is to make both cards have the same colour requirements, as you've done with spells. So go with Blood Crypt//BR Man Land for example. That way the BR player has to make a tough decision when playing the card, as opposed to it being an easy draft pick and only the one half sees play in the deck.
For fetches, pairing them with cards that can be used from the graveyard (like Marsh Flats//Lingering Souls) is delightfully evil.
For other duals, consider pairing them with expensive high-end cards. That way, the player can run them as lands early, and when they're flooded, run them as spells. Good pairings might include Blood Crypt//Demigod of Revenge, or Watery Grave//Oona, Queen of the Fae.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
For many cards I tried to do the pairings with a good early - good later kind of feel, but I occasionally broke that if the card's power level needed to be balanced between the halves.
I would love to have a good discussion thread on a split cube, but it is quite simply too much to take in at one time. Maybe break it down into digestible sections to discuss for a week at a time or something?
I would love to have a good discussion thread on a split cube, but it is quite simply too much to take in at one time. Maybe break it down into digestible sections to discuss for a week at a time or something?
I've been thinking the same thing... the deeper I get into it, the bigger and harder the project is getting. The rendering for the proxies alone... I'm two weeks into it. So, if I were to break this down into sections, should I do a separate thread on each chunk? I built it by color, breaking it down by color would put it into more workable 120 card chunks.
I'd recommend that you write out some guidelines for yourself before you start:
-What's my targeted power level?
-Are there any strategies I'd like to include or exclude?
-Is my cube going to have a particular theme? (Answer is yes, for you)
-Are there going to be special rules when playing with my cube? (Sideboards allowed? Free mulligans?)
Note these questions I'd say anyone should answer before they build any cube, not just yours.
For your cube, I would ask:
How much are you looking to abuse the fact that every card is a split? Raise Dead type effects, flashback, unearth, etc, all become very powerful.
How drastic do you want your splits to be? Goblin Guide, what do you pair it with? Do you want to pair it with something that's another aggro tool, like Blazing Shoal, ensuring it only ends up in an aggressive red deck? Inferno Titan with guide might end up in a more midrangy deck. Elite Vanguard with guide means the card will always be aggro, just for either of two colors.
Usman, the cube writer for SCG, has a split cube that I think he may have posted at one point. I got to play it recently. The most synergistic cards are the lands. With the highlights being the fetchland cycle, each of which has a relevant flashback card on the other half of the card as well as Squee, Goblin Nabob + Terramorphic Expanse, which just makes your mana so easy it's scary.
Other than that, the cards have a lot of tension to them, making game decisions very difficult. It's a very cool concept, but be prepared for long games and tough drafting decisions. Each card makes a difference.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Draft my cube!!
(450 unpowered, MMA-style archetypes in each color pair)
I would strongly suggest limiting the number of Permanent/Permanent split cards you have. For example, Steppe Linx/Glorious Anthem is a bad pairing in my opinion because it wouldn't be too hard to make the mistake of thinking the it's one and not the other.
IIRC, both Usman and Stuart had one Perm/Perm split. Squee/Terramorphic. And when I created my C/U SCC I didn't put any Perm/Perm pairings in. They're just too confusing...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sig by Rivenor
Cube. The best way to play Magic. PERIOD. Come over and check it out. Also, check out my Peasant Split Card Cube.
The World of Pokemon RPG has been rebooted. Come over and check it out.
I would strongly suggest limiting the number of Permanent/Permanent split cards you have. For example, Steppe Linx/Glorious Anthem is a bad pairing in my opinion because it wouldn't be too hard to make the mistake of thinking the it's one and not the other.
IIRC, both Usman and Stuart had one Perm/Perm split. Squee/Terramorphic. And when I created my C/U SCC I didn't put any Perm/Perm pairings in. They're just too confusing...
It might be advisable to store a deck box full of small glass bead counters with the cube. Depending on how much you like/need art on your cards, the picture section could even be converted into a check box for the "activated" card.
Your rationale is good, but it would be sad to restrict perm/perm cards, with so many cool interactions available.
It might be advisable to store a deck box full of small glass bead counters with the cube. Depending on how much you like/need art on your cards, the picture section could even be converted into a check box for the "activated" card.
Your rationale is good, but it would be sad to restrict perm/perm cards, with so many cool interactions available.
You're right there are a lot of great interactions but honestly the bead thing might not work either. Beads can get jostled and moved either purposely or on accident. Usman, Anthony and Stuart talk about it at length on the podcast. Apparently, Stuart tried a lot of different ways to get perm/perm pairing to work but he just couldn't due to the memory issues. Split card board states can get to be very complex. It's just not feasible to have a lot of perm/perm split cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sig by Rivenor
Cube. The best way to play Magic. PERIOD. Come over and check it out. Also, check out my Peasant Split Card Cube.
The World of Pokemon RPG has been rebooted. Come over and check it out.
You're right there are a lot of great interactions but honestly the bead thing might not work either. Beads can get jostled and moved either purposely or on accident. Usman, Anthony and Stuart talk about it at length on the podcast. Apparently, Stuart tried a lot of different ways to get perm/perm pairing to work but he just couldn't due to the memory issues. Split card board states can get to be very complex. It's just not feasible to have a lot of perm/perm split cards.
I know this can get moved too, but maybe a colored paperclip would be more robust than beads/dice. Not much you can do about someone actively cheating though (!!!), other than catch 'em in the act I guess.
Suggestions for the cube are being broken down into color fragments! Round one is: White, and starts at post 36,
found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9453187&postcount=36
***EDIT***
I decided to make a split card cube, and though it's taken a lot of thinking and research, but I think I've got the cube list pretty well narrowed down. Could I get some feedback on the pairings on this list? I was seeking to have a somewhat balanced, powerful cube with a good amount of archetypes supported. If you have card suggestions, please explain why you'd change what you change... I've seen a lot of feedback on MTGSal that's... not as good.
I want to get the list pretty tuned before I start making the cards. And I don't really want to see 50 cubes out there the same as mine, so I won't leave the spreadsheet up for long.
THE LIST: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmVq46rAnAJdDF2UGY2eV9NRmswcnlMTmlrVFFpQ0E#gid=8
Thoughts?
Yep, exactly.
The columns on the spreadsheet, the left card is the left side, the right card on the right.
I'm concerned about this sort of thing, though:
Blood Crypt//City of Brass
Lotsa decks are going to want City of Brass, which puts BR at a disadvantage for getting their dual lands. I'd therefore match City of Brass with something that likewise is going to fit into a lot of decks, like, I dunno, Port or something.
Good advice, and an easy fix. what pairings in the land or multicolor area would be better?
I think what deserves most attention are graveyard interactions. Carnophage//Unburial Rites, Squee//Volcanic Fallout seem predestined to form the core or at least a very important element of the way this plays out.
Why not go a little more bonkers? Combine Lingering Souls with Marsh Flats, for instance?
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Yikes! Squee/anything of value is pretty insane. Well-costed flashback (things like Souls, Rites, Deep Analysis, etc) attached to things that end up in the graveyard easily (cheap creatures, fetchlands, cards like cantrips/removal/countermagic) also seem like major value city.
Force of Will//Deep Analysis seems like one of the scarier cards I can think of - though the other three mentioned here are pretty bananas too. Some others:
Lightning Bolt/Anger - What's better than bolt? Bolt that permanently gives your other dudes haste
Thoughtseize/Gravecrawler - Brutal for Suicide Black
Nature's Lore/Roar of the Wurm - More or less guaranteed t3 6/6?
Krosan Tusker/Basking Rootwalla - Because Tusker isn't value enough getting a land + a card, it should give you a free body too!
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I think in the "original" split card cube... No wait, I don't like this word. Every cube is original. In what I believe was the first split card cube (or the first I heard of), Squee comes attached to Terramorphic Expanse. Talk about value...
These combinations are just brutal. However, this is cube, so this would be kinda legit I guess.
More good cards for such shenanigans:
Chandra's Phoenix (As I understand the rules, this being strapped to a burn spell would not result in buyback 0, so that's fine-ish. Combine with Mogg Fanatic?)
Firewing Phoenix
Magma Phoenix
Hammer of Bogardan
Bloodghast
Twisted Abomination
Transmute cards
Unearth creatures (Keldon Marauders//Hellspark Elemental anyone?)
...
Edit: I am salvaging Nof's link for ideas/random musings. For people who don't speak french:
There seem to be land//nonland pairings in this cube. That looks good.
Cascade is reported to be busted. They speak of BBE into Sol Ring // Time Stretch.
They make a split permanent//nonpermanent. That's for ease of keeping track of what's actually on the battlefield.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Madness.
Another way to handle Permanent//Permanent would be to print them with alternate orientations. So no matter which way you play the card, the left side of it faces "up", and that's the side in play. It gets a little squicky when it comes to tapping, but as long as you tap in a consistent fashion it should be alright.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I also wanted one half to be a permanent and the other to be a non permanent, though it isn't 100%. My intent was, once a card hits the graveyard, both "halves" are in the graveyard, making for more shenanigans. So yes, "Well-costed flashback (things like Souls, Rites, Deep Analysis, etc) attached to things that end up in the graveyard easily (cheap creatures, fetchlands, cards like cantrips/removal/countermagic) also seem like major value city." That was somewhat intentional. I largely avoided cascade save for Bloodbraid Elf. The Chandra's Phoenix suggestion is a very good one, though, I will implement that... trying pairing it with Splinter Twin?
Chandra's Pheonix seems like it's probably best when paired with a very cheap utility or burn spell. Chandra's Pheonix/Chain Lightning sounds brutal.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Every burn spell comes with an additional burn spell. Ouch.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
All I'm saying is to make both cards have the same colour requirements, as you've done with spells. So go with Blood Crypt//BR Man Land for example. That way the BR player has to make a tough decision when playing the card, as opposed to it being an easy draft pick and only the one half sees play in the deck.
For fetches, pairing them with cards that can be used from the graveyard (like Marsh Flats//Lingering Souls) is delightfully evil.
For other duals, consider pairing them with expensive high-end cards. That way, the player can run them as lands early, and when they're flooded, run them as spells. Good pairings might include Blood Crypt//Demigod of Revenge, or Watery Grave//Oona, Queen of the Fae.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I've been thinking the same thing... the deeper I get into it, the bigger and harder the project is getting. The rendering for the proxies alone... I'm two weeks into it. So, if I were to break this down into sections, should I do a separate thread on each chunk? I built it by color, breaking it down by color would put it into more workable 120 card chunks.
-What's my targeted power level?
-Are there any strategies I'd like to include or exclude?
-Is my cube going to have a particular theme? (Answer is yes, for you)
-Are there going to be special rules when playing with my cube? (Sideboards allowed? Free mulligans?)
Note these questions I'd say anyone should answer before they build any cube, not just yours.
For your cube, I would ask:
How much are you looking to abuse the fact that every card is a split? Raise Dead type effects, flashback, unearth, etc, all become very powerful.
How drastic do you want your splits to be? Goblin Guide, what do you pair it with? Do you want to pair it with something that's another aggro tool, like Blazing Shoal, ensuring it only ends up in an aggressive red deck? Inferno Titan with guide might end up in a more midrangy deck. Elite Vanguard with guide means the card will always be aggro, just for either of two colors.
"I'm the Best!"
Toad, Mario Kart 64
Other than that, the cards have a lot of tension to them, making game decisions very difficult. It's a very cool concept, but be prepared for long games and tough drafting decisions. Each card makes a difference.
(450 unpowered, MMA-style archetypes in each color pair)
Commander:
Far too many to count...
IIRC, both Usman and Stuart had one Perm/Perm split. Squee/Terramorphic. And when I created my C/U SCC I didn't put any Perm/Perm pairings in. They're just too confusing...
Sig by Rivenor
Cube. The best way to play Magic. PERIOD. Come over and check it out. Also, check out my Peasant Split Card Cube.
The World of Pokemon RPG has been rebooted. Come over and check it out.
Set Creation Projects: Archester: Frontier of Steam Come over and check out our AWESOME Steampunk set.
(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
It might be advisable to store a deck box full of small glass bead counters with the cube. Depending on how much you like/need art on your cards, the picture section could even be converted into a check box for the "activated" card.
Your rationale is good, but it would be sad to restrict perm/perm cards, with so many cool interactions available.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
You're right there are a lot of great interactions but honestly the bead thing might not work either. Beads can get jostled and moved either purposely or on accident. Usman, Anthony and Stuart talk about it at length on the podcast. Apparently, Stuart tried a lot of different ways to get perm/perm pairing to work but he just couldn't due to the memory issues. Split card board states can get to be very complex. It's just not feasible to have a lot of perm/perm split cards.
Sig by Rivenor
Cube. The best way to play Magic. PERIOD. Come over and check it out. Also, check out my Peasant Split Card Cube.
The World of Pokemon RPG has been rebooted. Come over and check it out.
Set Creation Projects: Archester: Frontier of Steam Come over and check out our AWESOME Steampunk set.
(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
I know this can get moved too, but maybe a colored paperclip would be more robust than beads/dice. Not much you can do about someone actively cheating though (!!!), other than catch 'em in the act I guess.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."