but desolation oni would be better
for example"Whenever another permanent enters the battlefield under YOUR CONTROL, sacrifice Desolation Oni."will be nice =D
I'm trying to position Desolation Oni as an extreme risk-reward card. I really want it to be a default last-pick in draft - so bad, on the surface, that most decks would never, ever consider so much as sideboarding it. But, I want the potential to be there for some crazy drafter to snatch up every copy of it and attempt some half-cocked strategy (countermagic? Turf Wound?) that just might be amazing, if that drafter can fully commit to it.
I'm a little frustrated that you like the other two. No, seriously! I was trying to make them kind of terrible, without being too obvious about it.
Preemptive answer to the "Why am I doing that?" question: this is a combat-themed set, and I want to give each evergreen combat keyword its own little subtheme in this set. However, I'm afraid that if I push intimidate, in particular, it's going to overshadow a lot of the other mechanics. So, I want to make it crappy, but flavorful. I decided it would be the "Oni ability" of the set, but I want to keep it on a short leash so that the other mechanics can shine.
is a 5/3 intimidate for 4 a fair reward given how incredibly easy it is to kill it? on average, this will deal, what.. 1.5 damage to the opponent? it seems like its worse than cobblebrute 95% of the time.
edit: after thinking it through more, im revising my 1.5 damage estimate to 0.3.
is a 5/3 intimidate for 4 a fair reward given how incredibly easy it is to kill it? on average, this will deal, what.. 1.5 damage to the opponent?
On average, that's about where I want it to be. Lower, even.
I want the average drafter to run as far away from this thing as possible. Nothing to see here, move on.
It's that 5% or so of weird Limited players, who might take a chance on a risky strategy, where this may potentially be efficient. I mean, there are WAYS to keep this thing on the board for a swing... maybe even multiple swings. Just not very reliable or traditional ways.
As hinted above, I'm already mulling over where I get to drop my Turf Wound effect into this set, now.
It's that 5% or so of weird Limited players, who might take a chance on a risky strategy, where this may potentially be efficient. I mean, there are WAYS to keep this thing on the board for a swing... maybe even multiple swings. Just not very reliable or traditional ways.
not trying to be difficult but i need to ask what ways you're talking about. i don't see this as a "build a creative deck around me" card so much as a "the average limited deck will have 35-36 cards out of its 40 that kill me so if the opponent happens to have the exact 5 card combination of cards that CANT, then you just got rewarded with a creature that is maybe +2/+0 greater than he would be if he was just a french vanilla" card.
Seconding most of the comments about the red guy. The card idea is good, but the reward is not worth the risk. Reducing the cost won't work because the opponent is more likely to instakill it with a land earlier in the game, so I'd give him a better body, like 7/4 intimidate, perhaps some other keyword, but that's uncommon territory.
I thought about making it 6/3, but then I realized that the card wasn't sending strong enough "don't play me" signals at that point.
I don't want drafters to make the mistake that this is an OK card. I want people to know what they're getting into, and then draft it because they're crazy like that.
That said, I'll consider the uncommon idea if it proves absolutely undraftable, by anybody, period.
not trying to be difficult but i need to ask what ways you're talking about. i don't see this as a "build a creative deck around me" card so much as a "the average limited deck will have 35-36 cards out of its 40 that kill me so if the opponent happens to have the exact 5 card combination of cards that CANT, then you just got rewarded with a creature that is maybe +2/+0 greater than he would be if he was just a french vanilla" card.
Thinking like somebody who would use this card... maybe I'm backing it up with an Essence Scatter, maybe I'm backing it up with a Turf Wound, maybe I've discarded you down to the point where you're unlikely to be able to cast anything for a turn or two.
Are any of these ideas... good? Of course not. Could they work, occasionally? Yeah, they could.
Who would draft something like this? Certain varieties of Timmy / Johnny. People who like One With Nothing. People who like a deckbuilding challenge. People who just want to prove that they can do it.
That +2/+0 is really all that's needed to get the attention of this card's intended audience.
im not a johnny but i can't imagine a johnny that would enjoy solving this puzzle. one with nothing is so obviously bad that i can understand someone wanting to figure out how to use it. but this card's drawback is not at all proportional to its reward. do johnnies enjoy warping their deck to enjoy the fruits of a 4 mana 5/3 intimidate?
but anyway i see where you're coming from, so if you aimed to make a terrible looking creature and if you think thats good for your set, then go for it. i do believe this is in the running for the worst creature ever printed.
Non-land is a lot nicer for the Desolation guy. With land included it's basically pointless, even with the stars aligning and you getting a billion copies and every support piece.
Let's say, for a minute, that I want to do this (not sure that I do.) What if we went in the opposite direction?
Desolation Oni2RR
Creature - Demon Spirit [C]
Intimidate
Whenever a land enters the battlefield, sacrifice Desolation Oni.
[5/3]
I want to be abundantly, totally clear that my goal in developing this is not to increase its pick-worthiness in draft. If it's not dead last 95% of the time, it's not doing its job.
I want to be abundantly, totally clear that my goal in developing this is not to increase its pick-worthiness in draft. If it's not dead last 95% of the time, it's not doing its job.
do you have a problem if this card is dead last 100% of the time? or i should say, literally never played in a limited deck?
like if your set was regularly drafted, and we looked at the history, and it turned out the only players to ever play this card were new players who didn't understand the rules or players who misunderstood how the card worked. would that be going too far?
because i understand you want to make a repulsive looking card that ONLY some niche drafters might enjoy, but im saying you may have instead made a repulsive looking card that no one will ever enjoy.
do you have a problem if this card is dead last 100% of the time? or i should say, literally never played in a limited deck?
like if your set was regularly drafted, and we looked at the history, and it turned out the only players to ever play this card were new players who didn't understand the rules or players who misunderstood how the card worked. would that be going too far?
because i understand you want to make a repulsive looking card that ONLY some niche drafters might enjoy, but im saying you may have instead made a repulsive looking card that no one will ever enjoy.
I do have a problem if it's dead last 100% of the time. My concerns are the same as yours.
I'm trying to make a Limited-centric common for the same kind of players who might enjoy One With Nothing as a Constructed-centric rare. It's made for the player who wants to prove that they can beat you with both hands tied behind their back. In order for copies of this card to end up in that player's hands, it has to be utterly unappealing to every other kind of player.
I don't want this to be a niche strategy where some play-to-win Spikes decide to chance it because the Desolation Oni strategy is dominant if you draft the right cards. Totally not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for the guy who is happy with his 1-6 record for the evening, because it means his cockeyed plan worked, one time.
Taking this to a meta-level, it's a forgone conclusion that SOMETHING always has to be the worst card in the set. Might as well be intentional about it and try to give that card a reason for existing.
Are you planning to have a lot of ways to grant haste in this set? Since I could see this going into some "Monster Bullet" or "Ball Lightning" type archetype, where your creatures have significant drawbacks, but if they ever had haste they would be fine / alright since they can essentially let you burn your opponent out.
Stinkfoot I would happily build a deck around (well, I'd ideally build a deck around 4 of it...). It is a 2/1 for 1 after all. Desolation I would never play (I'll go all-in on an early game plan, but if its midgame I don't want to be all-in like that - not my style).
Chattel I would play in a heartbeat. It lets me get value out of a no longer relevant creature (maybe a Stinkfoot that I can't attack with anymore ;).)
I like this batch. Makes me think there is a good chance for a niche suicide aggro deck to prey on the typical midrange limited decks.
Would anyone be terribly aggrieved if Desolation Oni was pushed to 5/5?
I may be wildly off base here, but Stinkfoot is the kind of card I would happily maindeck. Early game he does a decent Elite Vanguard impression, while lategame he keeps plinking away for 2 unblockable points at a time. In the worst case scenario your opponent is a faster black deck than you, in which case you trade him off for their X/2 and probably gain value. Also, being a 2/1 intimidate rather than a 1/1 matters - makes him large enough to knock down Wall tokens.
Oni Chattel is the kind of card I would only want in a very specific kind of deck. Its value goes up against white decks in particular, because they're 1) slow and 2) have Pacifism effects, although they also 3) have the most Wall makers. Probably hit the "intentionally bad" sweet spot with that one.
Creature - Rat Demon Rogue [C]
B: Oni-Possessed Stinkfoot gets +1/+0 and gains intimidate until end of turn. Activate this ability only once each turn.
[1/1]
Desolation Oni 2RR
Creature - Demon Spirit [C]
Intimidate
Whenever another permanent enters the battlefield, sacrifice Desolation Oni.
[5/3]
Sorcery [C]
As an additional cost to cast Oni Chattel, sacrifice a creature.
Gain control of target creature until end of turn. Untap that creature. It becomes red and gains haste and intimidate until end of tun.
I'm trying to position Desolation Oni as an extreme risk-reward card. I really want it to be a default last-pick in draft - so bad, on the surface, that most decks would never, ever consider so much as sideboarding it. But, I want the potential to be there for some crazy drafter to snatch up every copy of it and attempt some half-cocked strategy (countermagic? Turf Wound?) that just might be amazing, if that drafter can fully commit to it.
I'm a little frustrated that you like the other two. No, seriously! I was trying to make them kind of terrible, without being too obvious about it.
Preemptive answer to the "Why am I doing that?" question: this is a combat-themed set, and I want to give each evergreen combat keyword its own little subtheme in this set. However, I'm afraid that if I push intimidate, in particular, it's going to overshadow a lot of the other mechanics. So, I want to make it crappy, but flavorful. I decided it would be the "Oni ability" of the set, but I want to keep it on a short leash so that the other mechanics can shine.
edit: after thinking it through more, im revising my 1.5 damage estimate to 0.3.
On average, that's about where I want it to be. Lower, even.
I want the average drafter to run as far away from this thing as possible. Nothing to see here, move on.
It's that 5% or so of weird Limited players, who might take a chance on a risky strategy, where this may potentially be efficient. I mean, there are WAYS to keep this thing on the board for a swing... maybe even multiple swings. Just not very reliable or traditional ways.
As hinted above, I'm already mulling over where I get to drop my Turf Wound effect into this set, now.
Janky strategies make Limited awesome! Admit it.
not trying to be difficult but i need to ask what ways you're talking about. i don't see this as a "build a creative deck around me" card so much as a "the average limited deck will have 35-36 cards out of its 40 that kill me so if the opponent happens to have the exact 5 card combination of cards that CANT, then you just got rewarded with a creature that is maybe +2/+0 greater than he would be if he was just a french vanilla" card.
I thought about making it 6/3, but then I realized that the card wasn't sending strong enough "don't play me" signals at that point.
I don't want drafters to make the mistake that this is an OK card. I want people to know what they're getting into, and then draft it because they're crazy like that.
That said, I'll consider the uncommon idea if it proves absolutely undraftable, by anybody, period.
Thinking like somebody who would use this card... maybe I'm backing it up with an Essence Scatter, maybe I'm backing it up with a Turf Wound, maybe I've discarded you down to the point where you're unlikely to be able to cast anything for a turn or two.
Are any of these ideas... good? Of course not. Could they work, occasionally? Yeah, they could.
Who would draft something like this? Certain varieties of Timmy / Johnny. People who like One With Nothing. People who like a deckbuilding challenge. People who just want to prove that they can do it.
That +2/+0 is really all that's needed to get the attention of this card's intended audience.
but anyway i see where you're coming from, so if you aimed to make a terrible looking creature and if you think thats good for your set, then go for it. i do believe this is in the running for the worst creature ever printed.
Let's say, for a minute, that I want to do this (not sure that I do.) What if we went in the opposite direction?
Creature - Demon Spirit [C]
Intimidate
Whenever a land enters the battlefield, sacrifice Desolation Oni.
[5/3]
do you have a problem if this card is dead last 100% of the time? or i should say, literally never played in a limited deck?
like if your set was regularly drafted, and we looked at the history, and it turned out the only players to ever play this card were new players who didn't understand the rules or players who misunderstood how the card worked. would that be going too far?
because i understand you want to make a repulsive looking card that ONLY some niche drafters might enjoy, but im saying you may have instead made a repulsive looking card that no one will ever enjoy.
I do have a problem if it's dead last 100% of the time. My concerns are the same as yours.
I'm trying to make a Limited-centric common for the same kind of players who might enjoy One With Nothing as a Constructed-centric rare. It's made for the player who wants to prove that they can beat you with both hands tied behind their back. In order for copies of this card to end up in that player's hands, it has to be utterly unappealing to every other kind of player.
I don't want this to be a niche strategy where some play-to-win Spikes decide to chance it because the Desolation Oni strategy is dominant if you draft the right cards. Totally not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for the guy who is happy with his 1-6 record for the evening, because it means his cockeyed plan worked, one time.
Taking this to a meta-level, it's a forgone conclusion that SOMETHING always has to be the worst card in the set. Might as well be intentional about it and try to give that card a reason for existing.
Chattel I would play in a heartbeat. It lets me get value out of a no longer relevant creature (maybe a Stinkfoot that I can't attack with anymore ;).)
I like this batch. Makes me think there is a good chance for a niche suicide aggro deck to prey on the typical midrange limited decks.
I may be wildly off base here, but Stinkfoot is the kind of card I would happily maindeck. Early game he does a decent Elite Vanguard impression, while lategame he keeps plinking away for 2 unblockable points at a time. In the worst case scenario your opponent is a faster black deck than you, in which case you trade him off for their X/2 and probably gain value. Also, being a 2/1 intimidate rather than a 1/1 matters - makes him large enough to knock down Wall tokens.
Oni Chattel is the kind of card I would only want in a very specific kind of deck. Its value goes up against white decks in particular, because they're 1) slow and 2) have Pacifism effects, although they also 3) have the most Wall makers. Probably hit the "intentionally bad" sweet spot with that one.
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