This is a very meager ability, but I think it's an interesting one, and maybe a more exciting take on the question than the typical "becomes the color or colors of your choice" ability. This still requires you to go into intimidate's colors (black/red, in this set) if you want to protect against intimidate. I'm thinking of expanding this onto a few more cards, but I'd like to see what people think of it first.
I'm looking at these two guys in terms of Limited. I wanted to make them strong enough that you'd be inclined to splash for them even if you were primarily in another color.
As far as Constructed is concerned, I totally agree with you - why wouldn't I just run black and/or red creatures, if I'm really that worried about intimidate? But, I don't really plan for intimidate to be a factor in Constructed, so it's kind of a moot point.
Also, I do agree that if I expand this ability out any further, it needs to have Constructed applications that make sense. So, for now, maybe I'll just let it live on these two cards.
Do you think they're strong enough in Limited to warrant a green or blue splash?
Do you think they're strong enough in Limited to warrant a green or blue splash?
definitely not. people spalsh for bombs and removal, not the hope that one of your early turn creatures may or may not get to block an intimidate guy that the opponent may or may not have.
definitely not. people spalsh for bombs and removal, not the hope that one of your early turn creatures may or may not get to block an intimidate guy that the opponent may or may not have.
I'm not asking people to draft these for the color-changing ability. I'm asking them to draft them because they're solid and adding the color-changing ability as gravy.
So, pretend that the color-changing ability isn't there. If you don't think they're solid enough to warrant a splash, can you suggest how I might make them that way?
Wild Nacatl is at least in potentia a 3/3 for :symg:. That's pretty bomb.
Edit: BTW, I'd run the first guy in Limited probably, bushido on a cheap 2/2 isn't so bad. I do feel like competitive green 2-drops are usually a little more imposing, though?
I'm not asking people to draft these for the color-changing ability. I'm asking them to draft them because they're solid and adding the color-changing ability as gravy.
So, pretend that the color-changing ability isn't there. If you don't think they're solid enough to warrant a splash, can you suggest how I might make them that way?
Nacatl existed in a format that encouraged randomly splashing extra basics for domain and off-color activations. Also, the cost came with direct benefits: a 3/3 without any combat clause or restraining mechanic. These guys are random dorks with a little potential upside. Great to form a limited deck around, but definitely not pulling me into any colors.
The stats on these things have to be pretty aggressive to splash a three drop wall or a value bear, at which point their not commons anymore. The cards you've designed are pretty good as is, I think it's best to accept that they're solid in limited but not something people are going to try splashing.
I'm not asking people to draft these for the color-changing ability. I'm asking them to draft them because they're solid and adding the color-changing ability as gravy.
So, pretend that the color-changing ability isn't there. If you don't think they're solid enough to warrant a splash, can you suggest how I might make them that way?
i misunderstood the original question. i thought you asked "if you were playing this, would you splash so it could turn into different colors than your normal mana base?"
so you're asking whether these are strong enough to splash for. i'm not a limited expert but i don't see how anyone comes close to splashing for this. a 2/2 for 2 would need, like, <activated cost>: this gains +3/+3 and flying until EOT for me to think about splashing for. certainly not just bushido.
a 3/4 wall for 3? it would need flying for sure, plus some extra ability that made it very good in a control deck. if i'm WB control, for example, i don't know if i make my mana base shakier just for a 3/4 defender. if it cost more and bounced a creature when it came into play maybe?
again im not a limited expert, could be way off here.
Do you think they're strong enough in Limited to warrant a green or blue splash?
I'm never really inclined to splash for Bear++ or Grave Bramble. I'd only play these if I was already in green or blue. The green one I'd happily play main deck, the blue one I'd probably keep in my sideboard, but be happy I had it. I like cards that make me think hard about my manabase, (though not everyone does) so these make me happy.
I wonder if there is a better way to use color changing to fight intimidate. Indigo Faerie, for example can shut down an opposing creature's intimidate. Or maybe something like Riptide Mangler for color?
G: CARDNAME becomes the colors of target permanent until end of turn.
I'd like these better if they could just turn into any color.
If the format tends to be fast, I'm more likely to play these and less likely to play a splash color. The opposite is true if the format tends to be slow.
Besides, haven't you already said "this isn't a multicolor block", meaning that nongreen fixing is likely going to be worse than Innistrad's (rare cycle, Shimmering Grotto, Traveler's Amulet, and Ghost Quarter if you really want to stretch)?
Besides, haven't you already said "this isn't a multicolor block", meaning that nongreen fixing is likely going to be worse than Innistrad's
Yeah, the mana fixing is not going to be so good. Still, in low-mana-fixing formats, Limited decks still end up being 2.X colors, on average.
My philosophy about intimidate - at least, in a set where it's an identified subtheme - is that there shouldn't be a way to just cheese your way out of the blocking requirements. If you're not running intimidate colors (or artifact creatures,) then you can't block it. End of story. I feel like Rainbow Crow or similar cards would undermine what intimidate is all about, as well as the particular feel of the mechanic in this set.
But that means that for any given single-color intimidate creature, only slightly more than 20% of the creatures in the format can block it. That's pretty powerful. One of my methods of dealing with that was to make the intimidate cards somewhat problematic to work with (I think they'll still be drafted enthusiastically.) The second thing I did was put more than the usual number of artifact creatures at common. This ability is the third way I've tried to deal with the puzzle. Basically, printing a black and/or red card that's wearing a green or blue mask.
Long story short - I think the alternative to this ability is simply no color changing ability. So, I'll playtest with this and see how it shakes out and whether it's worth the space in the text box.
But that means that for any given single-color intimidate creature, only slightly more than 20% of the creatures in the format can block it. That's pretty powerful.
Given that this is the case, then, why do you want intimidate to be an "identified subtheme"? CTG already has bushido, ninjutsu, tactics, the spirit mechanic, defender, and any number of other combat-centric evergreen keywords that could be a mechanical focus. What is it about intimidate that makes it particularly compelling to you, either flavorwise or as a component of set design?
Making intimidators suck and pushing the number of artifact creatures makes sense, because players can make use of these cards even in games where the intimidate ability isn't relevant. This ability feels narrow and inelegant. A minority of average players are going to figure out that it's supposed to be splashed in a primarily black/red deck, and even fewer will encounter game states where they have a reason to actually use it. Given their stats, it's possible that the cards perform better in a blue/green deck that just ignores their ability than what their intended purpose is, which is feel-bad.
Given that this is the case, then, why do you want intimidate to be an "identified subtheme"? CTG already has bushido, ninjutsu, tactics, the spirit mechanic, defender, and any number of other combat-centric evergreen keywords that could be a mechanical focus. What is it about intimidate that makes it particularly compelling to you, either flavorwise or as a component of set design?
There's a little bit of top-down design going on here, I have to admit. The story and underlying theme of Call to Glory (the set, not the block) is the final war against the Oni. At last, the Utsushiyo and the Kakuriyo are fighting on the same side to overcome a common foe.
So, the villains of the set needed a mechanical identity. I knew that the Oni were going to be red/black, so it was a question of either developing a new mechanic or looking to see what was there in black/red already, that I could use. Since I knew I was going to have small subthemes for each of the evergreen combat abilities, I figured I'd promote intimidate up to a slightly-bigger-than-small-but-still-pretty-small subtheme, and have that be "the Oni mechanic."
Intimidate is generally treated as "unblockable*" (asterisk,) and that's just not really exciting or balanced in quantity. So I really have to find all the solutions I can find that keep the set's heightened levels of intimidate interactive, and also make it feel distinctly different than the other present evasion abilities like flying and landwalk. Part of doing this comes in acknowledging that intimidate's uniqueness is a product of its ability to really be tied down to a certain color identity. So, every chance I can take to say, "This is a black / red thing," I'm going to try to take it. This color-shifting ability was an extension of that.
I'm trying to push these guys up to high picks because that means that they'll generally see a wider distribution in different kinds of decks. I'd like green / blue to 2nd-4th pick these things, and I'd like black / red to 2nd-4th pick these things, too. Yeah, I expect that the ability is going to go unused in a lot of decks. But by making them impulse picks, I can increase the likelihood that it will be used in some of them. I don't think this is a feel-bad situation.
I'd like green / blue to 2nd-4th pick these things, and I'd like black / red to 2nd-4th pick these things, too.
You'll be aiming for around the power level of Matsu-Tribe Bushi, then. (i.e. "this is a common? seriously?") Right now I'd rate them a solid 2.5 on the Limited Pointing scale.
You'll be aiming for around the power level of Matsu-Tribe Bushi, then. (i.e. "this is a common? seriously?") Right now I'd rate them a solid 2.5 on the Limited Pointing scale.
The sort of scary power level of my Snake Samurai is not slipping by you, I see.
Do I want two ultra-good green common creatures? Sigh...
Creature - Snake Samurai [C]
Bushido 1
:1mana:: Blade of Autumn becomes the color of the mana spent on this activation cost until end of turn. Spend only colored mana this way.
[2/2]
Creature - Spirit [C]
Defender
:1mana:: Rainbow Kaijin becomes the color of the mana spent on this activation cost until end of turn. Spend only colored mana this way.
[3/4]
This is a very meager ability, but I think it's an interesting one, and maybe a more exciting take on the question than the typical "becomes the color or colors of your choice" ability. This still requires you to go into intimidate's colors (black/red, in this set) if you want to protect against intimidate. I'm thinking of expanding this onto a few more cards, but I'd like to see what people think of it first.
This mechanic makes me run duals with B/R in them without actually getting a slice of the B/R pie, which is kind of depressing.
As far as Constructed is concerned, I totally agree with you - why wouldn't I just run black and/or red creatures, if I'm really that worried about intimidate? But, I don't really plan for intimidate to be a factor in Constructed, so it's kind of a moot point.
Also, I do agree that if I expand this ability out any further, it needs to have Constructed applications that make sense. So, for now, maybe I'll just let it live on these two cards.
Do you think they're strong enough in Limited to warrant a green or blue splash?
Nobody ever splashed for Wild Nacatl?
I'm not asking people to draft these for the color-changing ability. I'm asking them to draft them because they're solid and adding the color-changing ability as gravy.
So, pretend that the color-changing ability isn't there. If you don't think they're solid enough to warrant a splash, can you suggest how I might make them that way?
Edit: BTW, I'd run the first guy in Limited probably, bushido on a cheap 2/2 isn't so bad. I do feel like competitive green 2-drops are usually a little more imposing, though?
Nacatl existed in a format that encouraged randomly splashing extra basics for domain and off-color activations. Also, the cost came with direct benefits: a 3/3 without any combat clause or restraining mechanic. These guys are random dorks with a little potential upside. Great to form a limited deck around, but definitely not pulling me into any colors.
The stats on these things have to be pretty aggressive to splash a three drop wall or a value bear, at which point their not commons anymore. The cards you've designed are pretty good as is, I think it's best to accept that they're solid in limited but not something people are going to try splashing.
so you're asking whether these are strong enough to splash for. i'm not a limited expert but i don't see how anyone comes close to splashing for this. a 2/2 for 2 would need, like, <activated cost>: this gains +3/+3 and flying until EOT for me to think about splashing for. certainly not just bushido.
a 3/4 wall for 3? it would need flying for sure, plus some extra ability that made it very good in a control deck. if i'm WB control, for example, i don't know if i make my mana base shakier just for a 3/4 defender. if it cost more and bounced a creature when it came into play maybe?
again im not a limited expert, could be way off here.
I'm never really inclined to splash for Bear++ or Grave Bramble. I'd only play these if I was already in green or blue. The green one I'd happily play main deck, the blue one I'd probably keep in my sideboard, but be happy I had it. I like cards that make me think hard about my manabase, (though not everyone does) so these make me happy.
G: CARDNAME becomes the colors of target permanent until end of turn.
If the format tends to be fast, I'm more likely to play these and less likely to play a splash color. The opposite is true if the format tends to be slow.
Besides, haven't you already said "this isn't a multicolor block", meaning that nongreen fixing is likely going to be worse than Innistrad's (rare cycle, Shimmering Grotto, Traveler's Amulet, and Ghost Quarter if you really want to stretch)?
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Yeah, the mana fixing is not going to be so good. Still, in low-mana-fixing formats, Limited decks still end up being 2.X colors, on average.
My philosophy about intimidate - at least, in a set where it's an identified subtheme - is that there shouldn't be a way to just cheese your way out of the blocking requirements. If you're not running intimidate colors (or artifact creatures,) then you can't block it. End of story. I feel like Rainbow Crow or similar cards would undermine what intimidate is all about, as well as the particular feel of the mechanic in this set.
But that means that for any given single-color intimidate creature, only slightly more than 20% of the creatures in the format can block it. That's pretty powerful. One of my methods of dealing with that was to make the intimidate cards somewhat problematic to work with (I think they'll still be drafted enthusiastically.) The second thing I did was put more than the usual number of artifact creatures at common. This ability is the third way I've tried to deal with the puzzle. Basically, printing a black and/or red card that's wearing a green or blue mask.
Long story short - I think the alternative to this ability is simply no color changing ability. So, I'll playtest with this and see how it shakes out and whether it's worth the space in the text box.
Given that this is the case, then, why do you want intimidate to be an "identified subtheme"? CTG already has bushido, ninjutsu, tactics, the spirit mechanic, defender, and any number of other combat-centric evergreen keywords that could be a mechanical focus. What is it about intimidate that makes it particularly compelling to you, either flavorwise or as a component of set design?
Making intimidators suck and pushing the number of artifact creatures makes sense, because players can make use of these cards even in games where the intimidate ability isn't relevant. This ability feels narrow and inelegant. A minority of average players are going to figure out that it's supposed to be splashed in a primarily black/red deck, and even fewer will encounter game states where they have a reason to actually use it. Given their stats, it's possible that the cards perform better in a blue/green deck that just ignores their ability than what their intended purpose is, which is feel-bad.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
There's a little bit of top-down design going on here, I have to admit. The story and underlying theme of Call to Glory (the set, not the block) is the final war against the Oni. At last, the Utsushiyo and the Kakuriyo are fighting on the same side to overcome a common foe.
So, the villains of the set needed a mechanical identity. I knew that the Oni were going to be red/black, so it was a question of either developing a new mechanic or looking to see what was there in black/red already, that I could use. Since I knew I was going to have small subthemes for each of the evergreen combat abilities, I figured I'd promote intimidate up to a slightly-bigger-than-small-but-still-pretty-small subtheme, and have that be "the Oni mechanic."
Intimidate is generally treated as "unblockable*" (asterisk,) and that's just not really exciting or balanced in quantity. So I really have to find all the solutions I can find that keep the set's heightened levels of intimidate interactive, and also make it feel distinctly different than the other present evasion abilities like flying and landwalk. Part of doing this comes in acknowledging that intimidate's uniqueness is a product of its ability to really be tied down to a certain color identity. So, every chance I can take to say, "This is a black / red thing," I'm going to try to take it. This color-shifting ability was an extension of that.
I'm trying to push these guys up to high picks because that means that they'll generally see a wider distribution in different kinds of decks. I'd like green / blue to 2nd-4th pick these things, and I'd like black / red to 2nd-4th pick these things, too. Yeah, I expect that the ability is going to go unused in a lot of decks. But by making them impulse picks, I can increase the likelihood that it will be used in some of them. I don't think this is a feel-bad situation.
You'll be aiming for around the power level of Matsu-Tribe Bushi, then. (i.e. "this is a common? seriously?") Right now I'd rate them a solid 2.5 on the Limited Pointing scale.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
The sort of scary power level of my Snake Samurai is not slipping by you, I see.
Do I want two ultra-good green common creatures? Sigh...
Maybe?