STE is one of the go-to ramp spells in a ton of formats. It's a cube staple and I've just always assumed it belonged forever. However, some folks in other threads have discussed dropping it, and that has caused me to think critically about it. I'm not ready to get rid of it yet, but I'm intrigued to see what the community thinks if they step back and really consider it.
Pros
- It's Rampant Growth that can absorb some damage from an aggro deck by blocking and then sacrificing
- It can be abused with something like mimic vat
- If you have all the mana you need, it can just chump block or attack. Not great value, but better value than drawing a Rampant Growth late would've been.
Cons
- Compared to the other cubeable 2CMC ramp spells, it's actually fairly subpar. Lotus Cobra attacks effectively, and can cause explosive turns. Rofellos taps for a billion. Wall of Roots plays defense better than StE (although it doesn't fix).
- If you want to abuse it with Mimic Vat, you're taking up the imprint slot in a game changing artifact with the ability to spend 3mana a turn casting rampant growth.
Ultimately, I guess my point is that STE is a fairly versatile card, but he might not be as good as he once was. In the last few years my cube has gotten Noble Hierarch, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Joraga Treespeaker, Arbor Elf, and Lotus Cobra, all of which do a better job of ramping than StE (although they're all vulnerable to creature kill which StE isn't). With the dramatic increase in playable T1 ramp, T2 ramp is rapidly starting to need to do more than ramp 1 mana to be good.
Are we at the point where cutting STE makes sense? According to Eidolon 95% of cubes play him, so clearly cutting him isn't popular or anything, and maybe it shouldn't be, but I think it's a critical conversation that is worth having. Would smaller cubes be better served with something better in that role?
Disclaimer: My cube doesn't support the super ramp strategy. I don't play anything like Gilded Lotus or the Eldrazi, so I don't know what he is like in those, or if you just play every ramp spell you can get your hand on.
I may be the only one that doesn't like him and my thoughts/experiences in Cube seem to be..different.
We don't play any land ramp that isn't Primeval Titan although we've fiddled with Oracle of Mul Daya before. But we have been discussing it off and on since we have Dungrove Elder.
he does absolutely everything i want in a 2 mana ramp spell. I have never been dissapointed in a sakura tribe elder, and he fits in almost every green deck my group makes so his main deck percentage is about100. he is far more consistent then lotus cobra or rofellos, despite their potentially explosive turns.
he does absolutely everything i want in a 2 mana ramp spell. I have never been dissapointed in a sakura tribe elder, and he fits in almost every green deck my group makes so his main deck percentage is about100. he is far more consistent then lotus cobra or rofellos, despite their potentially explosive turns.
So is Rampant Growth, and I don't see anybody playing that. Rampant Growth is 22% inclusion.
Is the block/sac mechanism really that good that you're taking advantage of it and rampant growth wouldn't be good enough? How often are you attacking with him? When is the last time you actually recurred him?
In all honesty, when was the last time anybody used Sakura-Tribe elder to attack? I play him all the time, and he's almost never anything but rampant growth. I can't remember the last time I recurred him or attacked with him, so his only advantage is the ability to block, and that's really not that much better than a card that has 22% maindeck inclusion.
If you do love STE: Why don't you play Rampant Growth?
he does absolutely everything i want in a 2 mana ramp spell. I have never been dissapointed in a sakura tribe elder, and he fits in almost every green deck my group makes so his main deck percentage is about100. he is far more consistent then lotus cobra or rofellos, despite their potentially explosive turns.
Sums it up pretty well. For as much as rofellos and cobra home run, they also strike out enough. Tribe Elder always seems to get me a hit, even if it is a boring single. Explosive cards are great, but you need rocks that your decks can rely on to perform how you want them to every time. Like, I am always going to get a basic land and maybe an attack if not at least a block from tribe elder; that's not exciting, but it's often what my green decks need, especially on the curve. On the other hand, I am not always able to run rofellos in my green decks, and I'm not always able to throw in 1-3 lands the turn(s) after I play the cobra to get far ahead.
re: big green ramp in the previous post:
Those creatures are also viable in Show and Tell/Eureka/SneakShard, though I still wouldn't play with Emrakul. 15 is a bit insane.
So is Rampant Growth, and I don't see anybody playing that. Rampant Growth is 22% inclusion.
Is the block/sac mechanism really that good that you're taking advantage of it and rampant growth wouldn't be good enough? How often are you attacking with him? When is the last time you actually recurred him?
In all honesty, when was the last time anybody used Sakura-Tribe elder to attack? I play him all the time, and he's almost never anything but rampant growth. I can't remember the last time I recurred him or attacked with him, so his only advantage is the ability to block, and that's really not that much better than a card that has 22% maindeck inclusion.
If you do love STE: Why don't you play Rampant Growth?
If we ever do add land ramp I think we'll add at least three Rampant Growth clones.
The blocking actually isn't bad in the right deck but the core of those decks to us are
first turn elves
Rofellos, Somberwald
Gaea's Cradle (x2 with Crop Rotation)
Natural Order
Primeval Titan
Craterhoof Behemoth
He fits into Wildfire decks I guess but those tend to be predominantly red for burn removal.
Explosive cards are great, but you need rocks that your decks can rely on to perform how you want them to every time.
So why not play Rampant Growth? I'm asking this question legitimately, I'm not spamming the thread trying to be a dick. It's not that I think STE is bad, it's that I don't understand why people think STE is 100% uncuttable cube staple and don't think Rampant Growth is even on the table, when they're EXTREMELY close to the same card.
So why not play Rampant Growth? I'm asking this question legitimately, I'm not spamming the thread trying to be a dick. It's not that I think STE is bad, it's that I don't understand why people think STE is 100% uncuttable cube staple and don't think Rampant Growth is even on the table, when they're EXTREMELY close to the same card.
They're not close at all--STE is a rampant growth with a body. There are a poop-ton of advantages to that.
This is the best green ramp card in the cube. Absolute staple. Uncuttable.
And it is nothing like Rampant Growth. Well, the cost and the fixing part is, obviously. But Elder gains you 2-3 life on a regular basis and/or becomes an actual win condition if drawn late. Ever tried dealing some damage with Rampant Growth? Or gaining some life? Or trading with an attacker?
This is the best green ramp card in the cube. Absolute staple. Uncuttable.
And it is nothing like Rampant Growth. Well, the cost and the fixing part is, obviously. But Elder gains you 2-3 life on a regular basis and/or becomes an actual win condition if drawn late. Ever tried dealing some damage with Rampant Growth? Or gaining some life? Or trading with an attacker?
Or equipping a sword to it. Or recurring it from the GY. etc.
Advantages of rampant growth (if we're stretching):
-Can get snapcasted
-Can't get reanimated by opponents (lol)
-Can't get vatted by opponents
-Can get doubled by Chandra
Otherwise, STE does everything growth does, and then a crap-ton more.
I'm not going to argue aboout STE overall, but I would at least like people to stop talking about his "advantages" with cards like Mimic Vat or other such cards. Hes not good with almost any of them. And he can pick up a sword. That makes him a three mana Mons' Goblin Raiders. Good luck with that.
I'm not going to argue aboout STE overall, but I would at least like people to stop talking about his "advantages" with cards like Mimic Vat or other such cards. Hes not good with almost any of them. And he can pick up a sword. That makes him a three mana Mons' Goblin Raiders. Good luck with that.
I can't imprint a growth to a mimic vat. I can imprint an STE to it. The advantage is clear.
I can't attach a sword to a late-drawn growth. I can attach one to STE. Again, clear advantage.
Essentially, it's a card that always does what I want it to do early in the game, and unlike a lot of other ramp spells it's not completely dead when I draw it late game. The recursion is an added bonus, and taking all your basics out of your deck can be huge, especially in grindy matches where you're answering all your opponent's plays and vice versa. Yes, it is of course not the ideal card you want under a vat/to be recurred/carrying your weapon/etc., but the option is there and sometimes it is a plausible/fine/the only option.
I can't imprint a growth to a mimic vat. I can imprint an STE to it. The advantage is clear.
I can't attach a sword to a late-drawn growth. I can attach one to STE. Again, clear advantage.
OK. Those are both true. When's the last time you did either of them? Did you win that game?
For comparison's sake: Nobody wants to play Grizzly Bears in their cube. Kavu Predator has some obvious abilities that make him better than Grizzly Bears, but those abilities actually aren't useful enough to make him cubeworthy. Fauna Shaman has an ability that makes her better, and that ability IS enough to make her cubeworthy. I'm saying that STE feels more like Kavu Predator to me than Fauna Shaman.
Yes, you can do a lot of extra things with STE, and yes it's better than Rampant Growth, but I'd love to hear some estimates of how often that's relevant. In my own experience, 75% of the time STE is rampant growth, 20% of the time he blocks something and I essentially gain 2-3 life, 2% of the time I green sun's zenith for him, 3% of the time I attack with him, and 0% of the time I reanimate or imprint on mimic vat. I don't knwo that 25% of the time is enough to making him "an uncuttable staple".
Unless you need the ramp T3 (which does happen a lot, obviously), I pretty much always wait to sac him until he chump blocks. So my percentages are more like: 50% block/sac, 40% Rampant Growth, 10% attack, 0% Vat/GSZ tricks.
Unless you need the ramp T3 (which does happen a lot, obviously), I pretty much always wait to sac him until he chump blocks. So my percentages are more like: 50% block/sac, 40% Rampant Growth, 10% attack, 0% Vat/GSZ tricks.
Really? So what happens when you play a T2 STE, don't sacrifice him, and then draw a 4 drop? Are you a bad player? Did you get unlucky? Is it no big deal because you have a 1/1 who can attack?
OK. Those are both true. When's the last time you did either of them? Did you win that game?
For comparison's sake: Nobody wants to play Grizzly Bears in their cube. Kavu Predator has some obvious abilities that make him better than Grizzly Bears, but those abilities actually aren't useful enough to make him cubeworthy. Fauna Shaman has an ability that makes her better, and that ability IS enough to make her cubeworthy. I'm saying that STE feels more like Kavu Predator to me than Fauna Shaman.
Yes, you can do a lot of extra things with STE, and yes it's better than Rampant Growth, but I'd love to hear some estimates of how often that's relevant. In my own experience, 75% of the time STE is rampant growth, 20% of the time he blocks something and I essentially gain 2-3 life, 2% of the time I green sun's zenith for him, 3% of the time I attack with him, and 0% of the time I reanimate or imprint on mimic vat. I don't knwo that 25% of the time is enough to making him "an uncuttable staple".
Are your percentages different from mine?
I have equipped swords to STEs numerous times when the situation called for it. It is a creature, which is all a sword requires and sometimes all I can offer. Vat I've seen done a couple times, and while it doesn't occur often it was solid when it happened and I would do it again if someone (or myself) sac'd an STE to the vat and I had no better option.
Kavu Predator depends on my opponents plays/deck, while what I do with STE is mostly up to me, so I don't think that's a good comparison. (Unless I'm saccing STE to removal, if someone decides to use it against him, when I use the STE and take advantage of him is entirely up to me.)
He is always, at base, a rampant growth. 100% of the time, if he hits play, I am eventually going to sac him for a land unless I win/lose the game before I have an opportunity to go fetch. Then there are games where I can get a coupe attacks with him. Then there are games where I can get a block in, sometimes a big one. I will never have that opportunity with a rampant growth. The only other 2 drop that I am confident in saying I will always hit that extra mana with is Wall of Roots. I find myself at least getting 1 block in almost every time I play STE, pretty consistently, unless I absolutely must have that extra land and sac the STE early.
Really? So what happens when you play a T2 STE, don't sacrifice him, and then draw a 4 drop? Are you a bad player? Did you get unlucky? Is it no big deal because you have a 1/1 who can attack?
Yes, that is a sucky situation. I find myself sac'ing him a decent amount when I don't already have a T3 play lined up in my hand so I don't run into this problem.
Really? So what happens when you play a T2 STE, don't sacrifice him, and then draw a 4 drop? Are you a bad player? Did you get unlucky? Is it no big deal because you have a 1/1 who can attack?
First of all, yes, I am a bad player by the standards of most here. So there's that.
If I play a t2 STE and have a 4-drop in hand, I'll obviously sac him. If the opponent looks like he's the beatdown and the extra life will be useful and I don't have a 4-drop? Sure, I'll keep him alive to block at the risk of topdecking a 4-drop. If the other guy is more aggro than me, I know it by turn 3, after all. And when I play green decks--particularly green ramp/midrange decks--this happens a lot.
I played him in a deck last night. In a two match sample, I both blocked and attacked with him, so the Rampant Growth comparison is pretty terrible. His WCS is Rampant Growth, which is itself a nearly cubeable card.
I played him in a deck last night. In a two match sample, I both blocked and attacked with him, so the Rampant Growth comparison is pretty terrible. His WCS is Rampant Growth, which is itself a nearly cubeable card.
Is Mogg Fanatic a Lava Dart (sans flashback)?
His WCS is a nearly cubeable card, but not actually a cubeable card. His BCS isn't actually all that much better, honestly. If his regular use isn't cubeable, shouldn't his BCS be better than "attacking with a 1/1"?
Note: I'm not saying people should play rampant growth because it's almost as good as STE. I'm saying STE isn't as much better than Rampant Growth as you think. Clearly some people disagree and that's fine, but I'm not convinced he's uncuttable.
Also, for what it's worth, I don't play with Mogg Fanatic either He's just not good enough.
EDIT: Actually, this post brings up a good point. What would you consider his Best Case Scenario? What's that dream moment that makes you glad you have him?
I played him in a deck last night. In a two match sample, I both blocked and attacked with him, so the Rampant Growth comparison is pretty terrible. His WCS is Rampant Growth, which is itself a nearly cubeable card.
Is Mogg Fanatic a Lava Dart (sans flashback)?
My friend runs Growth and it's been solid. I wouldn't single pick it in a winston pack, but I'd take it in a pile of 3-4 decent cards.
I like having the rampant growth effect in cube since it's a really strong ability to have in your green decks. Attaching it to a creature is all the better.
I applaud the passion put into making the case for him but JD is right..where is the sizzle? None of the things you are bringing up make him worth playing in a 360 Cube.
The power level tends to drop a bunch from 360 to 450 so its a different story and I can't speak to that.
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Because I like stirring up trouble
STE is one of the go-to ramp spells in a ton of formats. It's a cube staple and I've just always assumed it belonged forever. However, some folks in other threads have discussed dropping it, and that has caused me to think critically about it. I'm not ready to get rid of it yet, but I'm intrigued to see what the community thinks if they step back and really consider it.
Pros
- It's Rampant Growth that can absorb some damage from an aggro deck by blocking and then sacrificing
- It can be abused with something like mimic vat
- If you have all the mana you need, it can just chump block or attack. Not great value, but better value than drawing a Rampant Growth late would've been.
Cons
- Compared to the other cubeable 2CMC ramp spells, it's actually fairly subpar. Lotus Cobra attacks effectively, and can cause explosive turns. Rofellos taps for a billion. Wall of Roots plays defense better than StE (although it doesn't fix).
- If you want to abuse it with Mimic Vat, you're taking up the imprint slot in a game changing artifact with the ability to spend 3mana a turn casting rampant growth.
Ultimately, I guess my point is that STE is a fairly versatile card, but he might not be as good as he once was. In the last few years my cube has gotten Noble Hierarch, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Joraga Treespeaker, Arbor Elf, and Lotus Cobra, all of which do a better job of ramping than StE (although they're all vulnerable to creature kill which StE isn't). With the dramatic increase in playable T1 ramp, T2 ramp is rapidly starting to need to do more than ramp 1 mana to be good.
Are we at the point where cutting STE makes sense? According to Eidolon 95% of cubes play him, so clearly cutting him isn't popular or anything, and maybe it shouldn't be, but I think it's a critical conversation that is worth having. Would smaller cubes be better served with something better in that role?
Disclaimer: My cube doesn't support the super ramp strategy. I don't play anything like Gilded Lotus or the Eldrazi, so I don't know what he is like in those, or if you just play every ramp spell you can get your hand on.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
We don't play any land ramp that isn't Primeval Titan although we've fiddled with Oracle of Mul Daya before. But we have been discussing it off and on since we have Dungrove Elder.
Not a lot of other cards like him. Scratch that. No other card like him.
At the very least, Kodama's Reach/Cultivate should get the axe first IMO.
Not sure how STE stacks up to Wall of Roots, they're quite similar in their roles - my gut says the wall is a bit better.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
So is Rampant Growth, and I don't see anybody playing that. Rampant Growth is 22% inclusion.
Is the block/sac mechanism really that good that you're taking advantage of it and rampant growth wouldn't be good enough? How often are you attacking with him? When is the last time you actually recurred him?
In all honesty, when was the last time anybody used Sakura-Tribe elder to attack? I play him all the time, and he's almost never anything but rampant growth. I can't remember the last time I recurred him or attacked with him, so his only advantage is the ability to block, and that's really not that much better than a card that has 22% maindeck inclusion.
If you do love STE: Why don't you play Rampant Growth?
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Sums it up pretty well. For as much as rofellos and cobra home run, they also strike out enough. Tribe Elder always seems to get me a hit, even if it is a boring single. Explosive cards are great, but you need rocks that your decks can rely on to perform how you want them to every time. Like, I am always going to get a basic land and maybe an attack if not at least a block from tribe elder; that's not exciting, but it's often what my green decks need, especially on the curve. On the other hand, I am not always able to run rofellos in my green decks, and I'm not always able to throw in 1-3 lands the turn(s) after I play the cobra to get far ahead.
re: big green ramp in the previous post:
Those creatures are also viable in Show and Tell/Eureka/SneakShard, though I still wouldn't play with Emrakul. 15 is a bit insane.
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If we ever do add land ramp I think we'll add at least three Rampant Growth clones.
The blocking actually isn't bad in the right deck but the core of those decks to us are
first turn elves
Rofellos, Somberwald
Gaea's Cradle (x2 with Crop Rotation)
Natural Order
Primeval Titan
Craterhoof Behemoth
He fits into Wildfire decks I guess but those tend to be predominantly red for burn removal.
So why not play Rampant Growth? I'm asking this question legitimately, I'm not spamming the thread trying to be a dick. It's not that I think STE is bad, it's that I don't understand why people think STE is 100% uncuttable cube staple and don't think Rampant Growth is even on the table, when they're EXTREMELY close to the same card.
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We run 3 Eldrazi. Kozilek is maybe the worst to cheat into play since he doesn't protect himself I guess, but Reanimator will definitely take them.
EDIT: sorry, I just realized your point. When I say Reanimator I'm assuming we're also including Show and Tell, Eureaka, Channel, etc
They're not close at all--STE is a rampant growth with a body. There are a poop-ton of advantages to that.
edit: swears get *'d out on here, right
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And it is nothing like Rampant Growth. Well, the cost and the fixing part is, obviously. But Elder gains you 2-3 life on a regular basis and/or becomes an actual win condition if drawn late. Ever tried dealing some damage with Rampant Growth? Or gaining some life? Or trading with an attacker?
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Or equipping a sword to it. Or recurring it from the GY. etc.
Advantages of rampant growth (if we're stretching):
-Can get snapcasted
-Can't get reanimated by opponents (lol)
-Can't get vatted by opponents
-Can get doubled by Chandra
Otherwise, STE does everything growth does, and then a crap-ton more.
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I can't imprint a growth to a mimic vat. I can imprint an STE to it. The advantage is clear.
I can't attach a sword to a late-drawn growth. I can attach one to STE. Again, clear advantage.
Essentially, it's a card that always does what I want it to do early in the game, and unlike a lot of other ramp spells it's not completely dead when I draw it late game. The recursion is an added bonus, and taking all your basics out of your deck can be huge, especially in grindy matches where you're answering all your opponent's plays and vice versa. Yes, it is of course not the ideal card you want under a vat/to be recurred/carrying your weapon/etc., but the option is there and sometimes it is a plausible/fine/the only option.
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OK. Those are both true. When's the last time you did either of them? Did you win that game?
For comparison's sake: Nobody wants to play Grizzly Bears in their cube. Kavu Predator has some obvious abilities that make him better than Grizzly Bears, but those abilities actually aren't useful enough to make him cubeworthy. Fauna Shaman has an ability that makes her better, and that ability IS enough to make her cubeworthy. I'm saying that STE feels more like Kavu Predator to me than Fauna Shaman.
Yes, you can do a lot of extra things with STE, and yes it's better than Rampant Growth, but I'd love to hear some estimates of how often that's relevant. In my own experience, 75% of the time STE is rampant growth, 20% of the time he blocks something and I essentially gain 2-3 life, 2% of the time I green sun's zenith for him, 3% of the time I attack with him, and 0% of the time I reanimate or imprint on mimic vat. I don't knwo that 25% of the time is enough to making him "an uncuttable staple".
Are your percentages different from mine?
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Really? So what happens when you play a T2 STE, don't sacrifice him, and then draw a 4 drop? Are you a bad player? Did you get unlucky? Is it no big deal because you have a 1/1 who can attack?
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I have equipped swords to STEs numerous times when the situation called for it. It is a creature, which is all a sword requires and sometimes all I can offer. Vat I've seen done a couple times, and while it doesn't occur often it was solid when it happened and I would do it again if someone (or myself) sac'd an STE to the vat and I had no better option.
Kavu Predator depends on my opponents plays/deck, while what I do with STE is mostly up to me, so I don't think that's a good comparison. (Unless I'm saccing STE to removal, if someone decides to use it against him, when I use the STE and take advantage of him is entirely up to me.)
He is always, at base, a rampant growth. 100% of the time, if he hits play, I am eventually going to sac him for a land unless I win/lose the game before I have an opportunity to go fetch. Then there are games where I can get a coupe attacks with him. Then there are games where I can get a block in, sometimes a big one. I will never have that opportunity with a rampant growth. The only other 2 drop that I am confident in saying I will always hit that extra mana with is Wall of Roots. I find myself at least getting 1 block in almost every time I play STE, pretty consistently, unless I absolutely must have that extra land and sac the STE early.
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Yes, that is a sucky situation. I find myself sac'ing him a decent amount when I don't already have a T3 play lined up in my hand so I don't run into this problem.
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First of all, yes, I am a bad player by the standards of most here. So there's that.
If I play a t2 STE and have a 4-drop in hand, I'll obviously sac him. If the opponent looks like he's the beatdown and the extra life will be useful and I don't have a 4-drop? Sure, I'll keep him alive to block at the risk of topdecking a 4-drop. If the other guy is more aggro than me, I know it by turn 3, after all. And when I play green decks--particularly green ramp/midrange decks--this happens a lot.
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Is Mogg Fanatic a Lava Dart (sans flashback)?
His WCS is a nearly cubeable card, but not actually a cubeable card. His BCS isn't actually all that much better, honestly. If his regular use isn't cubeable, shouldn't his BCS be better than "attacking with a 1/1"?
Note: I'm not saying people should play rampant growth because it's almost as good as STE. I'm saying STE isn't as much better than Rampant Growth as you think. Clearly some people disagree and that's fine, but I'm not convinced he's uncuttable.
Also, for what it's worth, I don't play with Mogg Fanatic either He's just not good enough.
EDIT: Actually, this post brings up a good point. What would you consider his Best Case Scenario? What's that dream moment that makes you glad you have him?
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My friend runs Growth and it's been solid. I wouldn't single pick it in a winston pack, but I'd take it in a pile of 3-4 decent cards.
I like having the rampant growth effect in cube since it's a really strong ability to have in your green decks. Attaching it to a creature is all the better.
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The power level tends to drop a bunch from 360 to 450 so its a different story and I can't speak to that.