My initial reaction was that it gets trumped by aggro. But it has the 4 Threads, 4 Caryatids, 4 Repeals, 2 Boomerangs, and 4 Jittes to counter... I can't think of any deck in standard that this can't out-maneuver.
I do, however, believe that Black would be a far better inclusion than Green. You have access to Okiba and Throat Slitter and a slew of removal. Green only contributes 4 Birds, 4 Caryatids, and 2 Voidslime (SB); why not just replace Birds with Will-O'-The-Wisp? It also serves the role of Caryatid, opening up 4 slots for necessary Black removal. (Probably in the form of Throat Slitter)
The Birds help play multiple spells(ie: Sleight of Hand) in a turn, helps pay for Repeal and for Higure's distributable unblockable ninja effect, smooths out a multi-colored deck(even if it's just two colors), and helps keep mana open for counters while still being able to play spells. I think Birds of Paradise offers a lot to this deck.
EDIT:
And yeah, then there's the first turn drop, second turn Deep Hours enabling(though Wisp covers this too).
I believe Bracht knows far more about this archetype than anyone on this forum can, so throwing out his weeks of testing for untested theories and comparisons seems terrible. This isn't just a suggestion regarding this deck alone, but rather a broad statement towards a lot of forum-posters. Simply looking at a successful deck and implementing major changes isn't a good plan just because you *think* it's better (this may come out sounding more harsh than it's meant, as this is just useful advice to take into consideration).
I've even seen Bracht playing this deck on MODO premier events. Usually people won't do that for fear of the surprise factor before large events, and yet he must have been so confident in this deck that he did it anyways. It seems incredibly strong, and without many games on my part with and against the deck, I wouldn't suggest any changes.
I believe Bracht knows far more about this archetype than anyone on this forum can, so throwing out his weeks of testing for untested theories and comparisons seems terrible. This isn't just a suggestion regarding this deck alone, but rather a broad statement towards a lot of forum-posters. Simply looking at a successful deck and implementing major changes isn't a good plan just because you *think* it's better (this may come out sounding more harsh than it's meant, as this is just useful advice to take into consideration).
I've even seen Bracht playing this deck on MODO premier events. Usually people won't do that for fear of the surprise factor before large events, and yet he must have been so confident in this deck that he did it anyways. It seems incredibly strong, and without many games on my part with and against the deck, I wouldn't suggest any changes.
That is incredibly ignorant. Osyp's Izzetron build, which top8ed in PT:Honolulu was far from being the optimal build that we generally accept today. If no one ever bothered to modify it, Tron wouldn't have ever become one of the best decks in standard.
Just because a deck top8s, doesn't mean that it is the ideal list.
Average deck, wtf? It's fast, furious, fun and extremely well-designed. How many standard decks can boast a near-win on turn 2?
'Vore can at times, as Bracht is probably about to find out in the finals of German Nationals.
I played against this deck twice at Regionals...thing is, a good BW Aggro deck (Husk or Hand) wipes it out. It probably does very well against a field that largely isn't prepared for it which I'm guessing it wasn't.
Seems to me that if you take out Deep Hours and keep Erayo from flipping, what do they have left...not much.
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'Vore can at times, as Bracht is probably about to find out in the finals of German Nationals.
I played against this deck twice at Regionals...thing is, a good BW Aggro deck (Husk or Hand) wipes it out. It probably does very well against a field that largely isn't prepared for it which I'm guessing it wasn't.
Seems to me that if you take out Deep Hours and keep Erayo from flipping, what do they have left...not much.
Vore cna near win on turn 2. But it sure as hell didn't vs Bracht. Gone in 3 games. This deck seems very good.
i do have to say black seems beter than Green. Will'o-the-Wisp seems better than BoP (fliping Erayo on turn 2 is just greedy, you can wait till 3) and you get silver bullets in the form of Throat Slitter and Okiba-Gang. Not to mention you have stronger sideboard cards. it's still up in the air though.
I also like the inclusions of 1-2 meloku. Maybe even a third in the board. It just makes the deck more powerful.
There is a difference between a deck getting tested and refined over a few months and some random poster in a forum looking at a list (by, incidentally, one of the best deck builders in the world)
Right. We already know that one's post count dictates their intelligence.
and saying "Well, this doesn't seem very good, I would play black instead of green".
Did I say that? Or did I say this:
I can't think of any deck in standard that this can't out-maneuver.
That makes you sound like you dont know what you are doing, are somewhat arrogant, and not really understanding what makes this deck tick.
No, it really doesn't. I have an solid opinion supported by facts and I shouldn't be censured because of it. Stop wasting everyone's time and either contribute toward the thread or don't post at all; thus far, your word has little value.
Quote from "SRdude" »
I also like the inclusions of 1-2 meloku. Maybe even a third in the board. It just makes the deck more powerful.
It seems that you, The American Nightmare, and I are on the same page; there isn't much to win with if you ever burn through your Ninjas. I'd prefer Ink-Eyes just to be able to capitalize on the Ninjitsu support. (If Black turns to be superior)
i like this idea very much but after testing it i've found it's too fragile, weak to U-based decks filled with counters. i know... shoal, but still, if u don't get the combo pieces early, things could go bad for u.
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i do have to say black seems beter than Green. Will'o-the-Wisp seems better than BoP (fliping Erayo on turn 2 is just greedy, you can wait till 3) and you get silver bullets in the form of Throat Slitter and Okiba-Gang. Not to mention you have stronger sideboard cards. it's still up in the air though.
You cant possibly be seriouse. Who in there right mind says " I think I wanna combo a turn later then i could." No one says that. Black isnt the right way to go with this deck. Green is the second color because it gives you Birds and allows you to flip erayo on turn 2.
Someone who plays the deck to win, not to assemble a 6-card, 2-turn combo.
LOL, i guess flippin erayo on turn two is gonna weaken your chances of winning. But adding black and flipping erayo on turn three is alot better. i've failed to see the sense in that
LOL, i guess flippin erayo on turn two is gonna weaken your chances of winning. But adding black and flipping erayo on turn three is alot better. i've failed to see the sense in that
It isn't a realistic goal. I fail to see the sense in hindering the deck's performance because of an unreliable combo.
I'll get straight to the point instead of attempting to respond to your reply towards my last suggestion.
-Bracht is a bright highly competative player
-Ninjas are only in two colors in the BOK set
-Those colors are Blue and Black
-Now Max, being the intuitive fellow that he is, surely must have said, "I bet these two colors would go really well together in a Ninja deck"
-From there I'm sure he gave it a shot, because hey, it just makes more sense than anything else initially
-I'm sure after many games with the archetype though, he branched out towards other ideas to attempt to further the deck
-So he got games in with green (as I explained earlier from witnessing him playing the deck on MODO) and probably other colors (UR and UW are also possibilities and were probably attempted)
-Found out that the UG combination works pretty darn well
-Goes to win German Nationals
As for your previous comment about Osyps deck, honestly, I really would have gotten on your case for immedietly dismissing card choices in a deck that made top 8 at a constructed Pro Tour (although Tim Aten's and other players' moderately high placing of the Wildfire Tron deck at the PT would have helped your arguement far more than the one you have for UB Ninjas here). I would have been wrong in that case, and I may even be wrong here now.
My point isn't that UB Ninjas are better/worse than UG Ninjas. It's that dismissing succesful tournament results for what you "feel" is better without properly giving the succesful deck a shot is a recipe for failure (and almost all magic players (including myself from time to time) suffer from this need to "add our own spin").
I have a feeling this post will regretfully incite a flame or two, but it's a subject that many players that frequent magic forums should put more thought into.
Just played the deck on appr, and it is awesome...only lost one match, and that was thanks to a Hellbent Demonfire (yeah, who would have thought Rakdos aggro was actually played? :P)
But my question is this, what gets boarded out in the aggro match? I see 12 cards coming in...but nothing really seems fitting to be pulled.
No, we all need to stop posting here, because someone who calls people "ignorant" and uses some pathetic degrading image as their avatar knows better. Darkmindtone, myself, Maximilian Bracht all need to just bow down to this guy because we are wrong: have you all got that? WRONG.
You're acting childish.
Quote from "spiritual herder" »
First of all I want to stress how dumb it is to dismiss an already extensively tested build and change a color only on one's whims, as it has already been said.
I'm not dismissing it. I'm suggesting a different variation that *might* work better than the deck that Bracht won Nationals with.
Quote from "Spirtual Herder" »
Secondly, and after playtesting with Bracht's build yesterday (after making top8 but before winning the whole thing), I can see the reason(s) why the U/G build is 100% better than a possible UB build: Carven Caryatid. This deck's worst matchup is Zoo and it needs extensive sideboarding it against it (Jitte, Caryatid, Threads). Caryatids are the glue that keep this strategy together, whereas Throat Slitter would just be a bad card (Caryatid stops a whole army from attacking, the more so a second Caryatid).
Caryatid, while good, isn't the best solution; despite your beliefs, Caryatid doesn't answer all of your opponent's creatures. Your opponent still has Kird Ape, Scab-Clan, and a Burning Tree Shaman. A simple Seal of Fire would remove your solution and then the gruul/zoo/boros player would proceed to win.
And please stop fighting because a guy thought it would be nice to change a deck's colors. You can just ignore him (or explain why it is a bad idea, once) and go on discussing and testing the actual deck, the way it is being done in all the Competitive threads.
I like the first sentence. The second hurts my feelings a bit.
What exactly would be discussed if I wasn't opposing the purists? Surely anyone suggesting a change to the deck will immediately be criticized for not taking into account that it is perfect because it won German Nationals.
Don't dismiss the ability of the Caryatid to replace itself when it comes down. Combine that with the necessity of the aggro player to use burn AND a creature to kill it: the aggro player has spent a burn spell that could have gone to your head or to your ninja/erayo, as well as negating a turn's worth of damage from a creature. This generates the same type of pseudo-card/tempo advantage that is somewhat comparable to Loxodon Hierarch. While the loxodon is capable of killing bigger creatures than those Caryatid kill, the card replacement is a better fit for the deck's strategy than the stalling component the elephant provides with its lifegain.
Come now, there are a few of us who appreciate civil, constructive discussion in this thread =). And I must say that I have tested something that has played out very favorably:
Mishra's Bauble for Sleight of Hand
It gives us another easy way to flip Erayo in the first few turns...and you don't give up the card-drawing, either.
Come now, there are a few of us who appreciate civil, constructive discussion in this thread =). And I must say that I have tested something that has played out very favorably:
Mishra's Bauble for Sleight of Hand
It gives us another easy way to flip Erayo in the first few turns...and you don't give up the card-drawing, either.
completely agreed. running bauble is the same as running a 56 card deck which will increase your chances of finding erayo and flippin it a.s.a.p
3 Forest
6 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Ornithoper
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Higure, the Still Wind
2 Boomerang
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Repeal
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Carven Caryatid
4 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Voidslime
1 Disrupting Shoal
My initial reaction was that it gets trumped by aggro. But it has the 4 Threads, 4 Caryatids, 4 Repeals, 2 Boomerangs, and 4 Jittes to counter... I can't think of any deck in standard that this can't out-maneuver.
I do, however, believe that Black would be a far better inclusion than Green. You have access to Okiba and Throat Slitter and a slew of removal. Green only contributes 4 Birds, 4 Caryatids, and 2 Voidslime (SB); why not just replace Birds with Will-O'-The-Wisp? It also serves the role of Caryatid, opening up 4 slots for necessary Black removal. (Probably in the form of Throat Slitter)
My suggestion:
3 Swamp
6 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Underground River
4 Ornithoper
4 Will-O-The-Wisp
4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Higure, the Still Wind
2 Boomerang
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Repeal
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Throat Slitter
4 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Pithing Needle
1 Disrupting Shoal
Discuss.
Sig and Avvy by Mr. Stuff
Looking for people to test T2 with me on MWS, Pacific or Mountain time preffered
EDIT:
And yeah, then there's the first turn drop, second turn Deep Hours enabling(though Wisp covers this too).
I've even seen Bracht playing this deck on MODO premier events. Usually people won't do that for fear of the surprise factor before large events, and yet he must have been so confident in this deck that he did it anyways. It seems incredibly strong, and without many games on my part with and against the deck, I wouldn't suggest any changes.
(list not current)
My Cube Google Docs Spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AibgWfz0ukmOdDNhOHlucjcxUi1wVy00NDhLbDUtUlE&hl=en_US#gid=8
(list is always current)
Turn one:land, bird
Turn two:land, erayo, onithopther, repeal, ornithopter, win
That is incredibly ignorant. Osyp's Izzetron build, which top8ed in PT:Honolulu was far from being the optimal build that we generally accept today. If no one ever bothered to modify it, Tron wouldn't have ever become one of the best decks in standard.
Just because a deck top8s, doesn't mean that it is the ideal list.
- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
'Vore can at times, as Bracht is probably about to find out in the finals of German Nationals.
I played against this deck twice at Regionals...thing is, a good BW Aggro deck (Husk or Hand) wipes it out. It probably does very well against a field that largely isn't prepared for it which I'm guessing it wasn't.
Seems to me that if you take out Deep Hours and keep Erayo from flipping, what do they have left...not much.
Some people just love Jace a little too much
Vore cna near win on turn 2. But it sure as hell didn't vs Bracht. Gone in 3 games. This deck seems very good.
i do have to say black seems beter than Green. Will'o-the-Wisp seems better than BoP (fliping Erayo on turn 2 is just greedy, you can wait till 3) and you get silver bullets in the form of Throat Slitter and Okiba-Gang. Not to mention you have stronger sideboard cards. it's still up in the air though.
I also like the inclusions of 1-2 meloku. Maybe even a third in the board. It just makes the deck more powerful.
Right. We already know that one's post count dictates their intelligence.
Did I say that? Or did I say this:
No, it really doesn't. I have an solid opinion supported by facts and I shouldn't be censured because of it. Stop wasting everyone's time and either contribute toward the thread or don't post at all; thus far, your word has little value.
It seems that you, The American Nightmare, and I are on the same page; there isn't much to win with if you ever burn through your Ninjas. I'd prefer Ink-Eyes just to be able to capitalize on the Ninjitsu support. (If Black turns to be superior)
You cant possibly be seriouse. Who in there right mind says " I think I wanna combo a turn later then i could." No one says that. Black isnt the right way to go with this deck. Green is the second color because it gives you Birds and allows you to flip erayo on turn 2.
Someone who plays the deck to win, not to assemble a 6-card, 2-turn combo.
LOL, i guess flippin erayo on turn two is gonna weaken your chances of winning. But adding black and flipping erayo on turn three is alot better. i've failed to see the sense in that
It isn't a realistic goal. I fail to see the sense in hindering the deck's performance because of an unreliable combo.
-Bracht is a bright highly competative player
-Ninjas are only in two colors in the BOK set
-Those colors are Blue and Black
-Now Max, being the intuitive fellow that he is, surely must have said, "I bet these two colors would go really well together in a Ninja deck"
-From there I'm sure he gave it a shot, because hey, it just makes more sense than anything else initially
-I'm sure after many games with the archetype though, he branched out towards other ideas to attempt to further the deck
-So he got games in with green (as I explained earlier from witnessing him playing the deck on MODO) and probably other colors (UR and UW are also possibilities and were probably attempted)
-Found out that the UG combination works pretty darn well
-Goes to win German Nationals
As for your previous comment about Osyps deck, honestly, I really would have gotten on your case for immedietly dismissing card choices in a deck that made top 8 at a constructed Pro Tour (although Tim Aten's and other players' moderately high placing of the Wildfire Tron deck at the PT would have helped your arguement far more than the one you have for UB Ninjas here). I would have been wrong in that case, and I may even be wrong here now.
My point isn't that UB Ninjas are better/worse than UG Ninjas. It's that dismissing succesful tournament results for what you "feel" is better without properly giving the succesful deck a shot is a recipe for failure (and almost all magic players (including myself from time to time) suffer from this need to "add our own spin").
I have a feeling this post will regretfully incite a flame or two, but it's a subject that many players that frequent magic forums should put more thought into.
(list not current)
My Cube Google Docs Spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AibgWfz0ukmOdDNhOHlucjcxUi1wVy00NDhLbDUtUlE&hl=en_US#gid=8
(list is always current)
- Lack of common sense is like the common flu.
Helping unknown people and getting flame by them.
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My eBay Listings finishing in 15 minutes.
But my question is this, what gets boarded out in the aggro match? I see 12 cards coming in...but nothing really seems fitting to be pulled.
You're acting childish.
I'm not dismissing it. I'm suggesting a different variation that *might* work better than the deck that Bracht won Nationals with.
Caryatid, while good, isn't the best solution; despite your beliefs, Caryatid doesn't answer all of your opponent's creatures. Your opponent still has Kird Ape, Scab-Clan, and a Burning Tree Shaman. A simple Seal of Fire would remove your solution and then the gruul/zoo/boros player would proceed to win.
I like the first sentence. The second hurts my feelings a bit.
What exactly would be discussed if I wasn't opposing the purists? Surely anyone suggesting a change to the deck will immediately be criticized for not taking into account that it is perfect because it won German Nationals.
Objection!
Northern Ohio Gamers Forums
Mishra's Bauble for Sleight of Hand
It gives us another easy way to flip Erayo in the first few turns...and you don't give up the card-drawing, either.
completely agreed. running bauble is the same as running a 56 card deck which will increase your chances of finding erayo and flippin it a.s.a.p