Fiend Hunter exlies the angel, Aristocrat sacs the Sanctifier and then the Fiend Hunter, which brings back the Sanctifier and the Fiend Hunter to gain infinite life etc. . . .
Seems like an inefficient combo but it's been pulled on me twice in the past few hours with both Faithless Looting and Grisley Salvage tossing things into the graveyard pretty quickly.
Play one of like a million graveyard hate spells available for your sideboard; Rest in Peace is particularly brutal if you're in white, Cremate plays nice in a Snapcaster/Black deck, and Grafdigger's cage is a nice one if you can't decide on one of those.
Rest in pace is actually not really a good option since Brian Barn-Duin(or however you spell his name) mentioned in his deck tech that he brings in his 3 ray's against any deck playing white. Grafdiggers cage is therefore a better board option most likely. Rakdos charm on the other hand is a big game, especially since it can be fireball once they make a billion dudes and gain a billion life assuming they misplay and make a billion dudes. Obviously you charm their yard when they go off if you have it, but don't neglect the 5% of the time when you can potentially draw charm on your next turn assuming you can punch through for lethal on there remaining life total.
Edit: Cage stops rites and ideally you should pressure them enough that they don't get to seven mana. On the draw they're probably siding out some number of farseeks.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I imagine this deck has to be a pretty heavy dog to Rx Aggro just turning guys sideways ~ its way better positioned to just outvalue the midrange aggro decks that were everywhere at the GP (Naya and Jund specifically). The actual assembly of the combo is reasonably slow.
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Don't pretty much all Red decks out-pace Reanimator decks unless they nut draw? If you're looking for specific answers, Tormod's Crypt is there. Other than that, I think you'll have to start going into other colors.
No it doesn't. If they hardcast an Angel, it still brings back everything, even if you have a cage.
the point is moot since i've played Human reanimator a lot last season and RDW was always a pretty rough matchup, i always had to side cathedral sanctifiers and more huntmasters to stay alive early, but I'm fairly certain that graf diggers cage hoses angel. I can't find an accurate ruling but graf digger's cage says creatuers can't enter the battlefield from their graveyards.. .angel puts them from graveyard into battlefield... seems pretty cut and dry to me.
If you are right, I wish i asked for a ruling on this the many games i've lost to graf digger's cage or had to play around it.
Play against it as we always have: bring threats to the board before they combo off. Rest in Peace should resolve first before they can get rid of it btw. So play it at the right time and they slow down a big deal. Tormod's is also ok if you really need grave hate.
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@ Fissure ~ in my experience yes. However, you cannot beat this deck post-reanimation, so I suppose that does put a more solid temporal constraint ~ you can beat unburial rites for Thragtusk out of Junk reanimator, but you're not beating Angel of Glory's Rise. Still, I would approach the matchup in the same way ~ at least this time, turn 1 Stromkirk Noble is a BIG game.
@ Marikhal ~ I might be in error, but my understanding was that Angel got around Cage? That was the ruling I remember seeing. Can anyone confirm or deny?
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Yeah I get what the card says, but I am sure I have seen it happen...might just be imagining things again...still, you just turn guys sideways and kill them is the strategy.
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Obviously stopping the reanimation would be nice, but ending the game faster is even better. Why not let the tech be skullcrack for this? Just play crack in response to fiend hunter trigger. This lets us try and keep our tempo and keep the goal of winning as fast as possible rather than sitting around with something like graffdigger's cage.
Obviously stopping the reanimation would be nice, but ending the game faster is even better. Why not let the tech be skullcrack for this? Just play crack in response to fiend hunter trigger. This lets us try and keep our tempo and keep the goal of winning as fast as possible rather than sitting around with something like graffdigger's cage.
It doesn't stop the million 2/2's coming your way.
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Yeah I get what the card says, but I am sure I have seen it happen...might just be imagining things again...still, you just turn guys sideways and kill them is the strategy.
taht's a good plan!
Just trying to be helpful but perhaps beckon apparition could be an option if you are splashing black OR white? not sure how effective that is as opposed to just putting their graveyard out with rest in peace or getting or a cantrip like cremate.
I think the discussion should be directed towards sideboard plans. Obviously game 1 should be a good matchup do to us putting on a fast clock, but what do you board out game 2? I think pillar and spear have to stay since you can clear blockers and disrupt the fiend hunter combo with spear. Maybe take out 5 drops and possibly 3 drops or a land? At most I think we board in 5-6 cards between skullcracks/Grave hate of choice. With the nature of this reanimation deck, I don't think threaten affects are good. What does everyone else think?
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Agree. Threatens don't do anything against this type of Reanimation Strategy; Thundermaw/Conscripts, which come down on around turn 7 are also too slow. I think cut the high end and just lower your curve as much as possible. Pillar of Flame is actively good if Cartel Aristocrat isn't in play; if you kill their Huntmaster they cannot combo off; and while this does involve getting a bit lucky (them not finding another copy) it would force them to durdle around more to dig ~ every turn they're not interacting with the board you're going to be braining them for a lot of damage.
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I think the discussion should be directed towards sideboard plans. Obviously game 1 should be a good matchup do to us putting on a fast clock, but what do you board out game 2? I think pillar and spear have to stay since you can clear blockers and disrupt the fiend hunter combo with spear. Maybe take out 5 drops and possibly 3 drops or a land? At most I think we board in 5-6 cards between skullcracks/Grave hate of choice. With the nature of this reanimation deck, I don't think threaten affects are good. What does everyone else think?
I agree with your approach LK...I would add that we also need to think about it from the other end, i.e., what can we afford to move out of our boards in order to make room for GY hate. I like that Rakdos Charm cannot be reversed, but in this case it's problematic because it doesn't give continued protection. It also is not an option for Mono Red. If Cage works--I have yet to track down any definitive ruling about AoGR and Cage, but I cannot see how she would get around it as Reanimation is stopped--it may have to move into the de facto hate slot.
Against lists without Lingering Souls or many dorks, Pillar may be the card to pull. One could argue for pulling Aristocrat on the draw, but that reduces the pressure percentages.
EDIT--just in behind Z's response; his logic trumps mine.
EDIT AGAIN--I haven't had time to search; are these lists still running AoS? It makes a difference in approach if they can still be pulling our board presence a/o flashing Tusk while they durdle.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I would probably remove any high end card but aristocrat since it flies over huntmaster and friends.
I'm seeing the sense in that now; actually lower the curve and run hard at them. If they are pulling out the Tusk/AoS/Resto for this, I actually would rather play against it as the have to telegraph what they're doing and we can blow up pieces.
Another thing to keep in mind on the side is that if they are putting all their resources into getting off this combo, anyone splashing into white can look at running Nearheath Pilgrim SB to give them reason to go offtrack. We just happen to be be carrying the cards to pop off our own infinite life combo, and it's no more convoluted than theirs.
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Human Reanimator (Humanimator) is running this combo:
Cartel Aristocrat is the sac outlet, brought into battlefield with the Angel of Glory's Rise a lifegain source, either Cathedral Sanctifier or Huntmaster of the Fells and a Fiend Hunter.
Fiend Hunter exlies the angel, Aristocrat sacs the Sanctifier and then the Fiend Hunter, which brings back the Sanctifier and the Fiend Hunter to gain infinite life etc. . . .
Seems like an inefficient combo but it's been pulled on me twice in the past few hours with both Faithless Looting and Grisley Salvage tossing things into the graveyard pretty quickly.
What's the out?
This isn't fundamentally different to the Human Reanimator deck, which was a good matchup.
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Edit: Cage stops rites and ideally you should pressure them enough that they don't get to seven mana. On the draw they're probably siding out some number of farseeks.
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um... doesn't it?
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How does that even work?
I mean, we all know what Grafdigger's Cage says... how does this get around it?
the point is moot since i've played Human reanimator a lot last season and RDW was always a pretty rough matchup, i always had to side cathedral sanctifiers and more huntmasters to stay alive early, but I'm fairly certain that graf diggers cage hoses angel. I can't find an accurate ruling but graf digger's cage says creatuers can't enter the battlefield from their graveyards.. .angel puts them from graveyard into battlefield... seems pretty cut and dry to me.
If you are right, I wish i asked for a ruling on this the many games i've lost to graf digger's cage or had to play around it.
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@ Marikhal ~ I might be in error, but my understanding was that Angel got around Cage? That was the ruling I remember seeing. Can anyone confirm or deny?
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It doesn't stop the million 2/2's coming your way.
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taht's a good plan!
Just trying to be helpful but perhaps beckon apparition could be an option if you are splashing black OR white? not sure how effective that is as opposed to just putting their graveyard out with rest in peace or getting or a cantrip like cremate.
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I agree with your approach LK...I would add that we also need to think about it from the other end, i.e., what can we afford to move out of our boards in order to make room for GY hate. I like that Rakdos Charm cannot be reversed, but in this case it's problematic because it doesn't give continued protection. It also is not an option for Mono Red. If Cage works--I have yet to track down any definitive ruling about AoGR and Cage, but I cannot see how she would get around it as Reanimation is stopped--it may have to move into the de facto hate slot.
Against lists without Lingering Souls or many dorks, Pillar may be the card to pull. One could argue for pulling Aristocrat on the draw, but that reduces the pressure percentages.
EDIT--just in behind Z's response; his logic trumps mine.
EDIT AGAIN--I haven't had time to search; are these lists still running AoS? It makes a difference in approach if they can still be pulling our board presence a/o flashing Tusk while they durdle.
I'm seeing the sense in that now; actually lower the curve and run hard at them. If they are pulling out the Tusk/AoS/Resto for this, I actually would rather play against it as the have to telegraph what they're doing and we can blow up pieces.
Another thing to keep in mind on the side is that if they are putting all their resources into getting off this combo, anyone splashing into white can look at running Nearheath Pilgrim SB to give them reason to go offtrack. We just happen to be be carrying the cards to pop off our own infinite life combo, and it's no more convoluted than theirs.