hmm...eye to nowhere looks oka...its still UU which after testing with my lotus version is hard to get...so yeah....
and phonixx...why do you say it sucks without even testing it, werent you the advocate of "test it then tell me what you thinK"...if you already tested it and found that its bad sorry for this minor rant. Anyway in my testing as i already said so far 2 md and 1 sb is good...
and btw reshape does work that way im 100% sure....i mean no mana cost = 0 or less
and on crystall quarry, why not run 1?.....itll actually help you if you play tainted pact
-----------------
edit: speaking of search engines .....how bout runnning one of the familiars and a xantid swarm to MD...to be abel to run diabolic intent as tutor......just an idea.....im just trying to find a good search engine and im just searching for ideas....
on a more serious note....do you think krosan grip (the new card with split second) spells the end of scepter chant? and if it doeas do we need to stop worrying about controll? just a question
I really don't think eye of nowhere is better than tempral fissure, due to the double blue, and we only need to deal with annoying permanants before the kill, not before going off, so converted mana cost is not relevant and one solution will be enough. If some one do play arcane laboratory or rule of law, i think it's as simple as we can't win, eye of nowhere won't help. I see no way in bouncing a permanant with UU, then still be able to go off, not mentioning wasting a wish on the eye of nowhere. However, such decks won't win any other game (haha), so hopefully we only need to worry about them on round1.
on the reshape combo, even if it does work, i see no meaning in using two cards to trade for 1 additional mana, that is much less efficency than the rituals we run.
on the diabolic intent, i thought about running a creature build but gave up due to inconsistency and lack of pace of creature based mana acceleraion, if only running familiars and xantid swarm, diabolic intent would be very situational, i think only a deck with 20 or so creatures could diabolic intent be used to its maxium efficency.
on Krosan grip, i think it will be at least sb'd by lots of decks but i doubt it will spell the end of any deck. It don't ruin the control basis of scepter chant, just making the chant lock more breakable. I think that will result in less scepter based control elements and more traditional control elements employed by no-stick, which i think makes the matchup worse for us. We really don't care about helixes imprinted, but cares if the helixes and scepters are changed for counterspells and mana leaks (just an example). However, if a powerful solution or threat will be printed with split second, only that would damage the basis of control alot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't play magic cuz Ima little sheep.
[Team littlesheep]
im still working on my build but i just need to ask three questions:
1) how much mana fixing is absolutly required In your oppinions to keep the deck running smoothly.....4-8?....
2) i remember some people ran meddling mage ...how did that turn out?
3) do any of you win enough at turn 2 that its worth mentioning ...like 10-20%.....? how bout turn 3 ...i remember an old percentage of 45% on turn 3...but that hasnt been true......what about your builds?
my answers, mystic 1110:
1, my current build run 4 chromatic sphere 3 darkwater egg and 3 pentad prism, also i run 3 md 1 sb channel the suns, it runs smoothly enough. However maybe it's too much, only extensive testing will show the answer.
2, as my suspicious and cautionous attitude to all those odd additions, i don't think meddling mage will be frequently casted enough to make a difference...
3, my build averages a no more than 5% percent of t2 wins. t3 wins are like 25-30%. My build have a about 15% chance to fizzle (failed desire flippes counts toward fizzling), however. A encouraging thing is that yesterday night i suceeded in pulling off a t1 kill (with triple rite of flame, darkwater egg, chromatic sphere, archaelogical dig and mind's desire in hand), I stormed for 7 and made the kill. I do believe our deck is the only tier 2 or above deck in extended that could do a t1 kill.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't play magic cuz Ima little sheep.
[Team littlesheep]
my answers, mystic 1110:
1, my current build run 4 chromatic sphere 3 darkwater egg and 3 pentad prism, also i run 3 md 1 sb channel the suns, it runs smoothly enough. However maybe it's too much, only extensive testing will show the answer.
2, as my suspicious and cautionous attitude to all those odd additions, i don't think meddling mage will be frequently casted enough to make a difference...
3, my build averages a no more than 5% percent of t2 wins. t3 wins are like 25-30%. My build have a about 15% chance to fizzle (failed desire flippes counts toward fizzling), however. A encouraging thing is that yesterday night i suceeded in pulling off a t1 kill (with triple rite of flame, darkwater egg, chromatic sphere, archaelogical dig and mind's desire in hand), I stormed for 7 and made the kill. I do believe our deck is the only tier 2 or above deck in extended that could do a t1 kill.
k thanks...wow 13 mana fixing md......wow
lol i came up with a causal extended build with a 5% chance to win turn 1 playing first and a 10% chance on the draw :)...if it didnt win turn 1 you tried to win turn 2.....if not you lost
hmm...ill probably uses 8 mana fixing..hmmmi think 13 md is just too much...
Yeah, i forgot to count chrome moxen, if they count.
I found myself gradually putting more and more mana fixers after more and more testing... my first build, which run 4 moxen 3 chromatic sphere, 3 pentad prism and 3 channel the suns fizzle like 30%, most of the time it's due to mana problems.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't play magic cuz Ima little sheep.
[Team littlesheep]
wow so if crome mox counts that 17 mana fixers....in testing ive been using (including crystal quarry and moxs) 11 only...hmm...mabey i should put in more?
Perhaps, you should try it at least.
Currently my build ran the following:
15 rituals (including channel the suns)
10 mana fixers
4 moxen
4 wish
6 tutor
6 sins/desire
15 lands
and it's pretty solid. I'm wondering what you added in place of my mana fixing and stuff.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't play magic cuz Ima little sheep.
[Team littlesheep]
phoenix: I don't know about you, but from what I've seen, decks in legacy and extended do sometimes SB arcane lab/rule of law. Mostly either control decks to even the odds against aggro, or legacy manland decks that don't need to play spells to end the game. And in combo heavy environments, it can induce enough scoops to warrant SB space.
but enough about that...
lotus bloom: I don't think it's for this combo deck. This deck is using each turn to really sculpt it's hand, play draw spells, play prisms to setup later turns, and it's mana in setting up is usually very tied up while trying to go off very quickly. Lotus bloom is for a more control oriented combo that will wait patiently for turn 4 or 5 before going off after having disrupted the opponent, or stabilized a measure of protecting the combo.
Basically, lotus bloom is for when you want your hands free for a few turns. Think about, you put it out turn 1, play a land, pass the turn. Respond with permission, eot draw, or hand/board disruption if necessary. Repeat until 4th turn, go off with excess mana to respond to any counterspells, stifles, etc.
No. This deck is supposed to be a balls to walls combo deck that rages like the neighbors dog ripping apart your fence to get into your yard to catch that rodent he saw from first turn to last. Lotus bloom is too slow, faster aggro is going to kill you before you ever get to use it unless you have some way of cheating the suspend mechanic that doesn't use yet another card which is only suitable for that purpose and has no synergy with the rest of the deck. That's the reason i don't like twiddesire either, because if you had one piece without the other the best it can do is either mana fix and lose 2 mana in the process, or untap a brass city to add to the storm count...
Take that as you will, I just wanted to voice why this card doesn't fit this deck, instead of just saying that it doesn't.
phoenix: I don't know about you, but from what I've seen, decks in legacy and extended do sometimes SB arcane lab/rule of law. Mostly either control decks to even the odds against aggro, or legacy manland decks that don't need to play spells to end the game. And in combo heavy environments, it can induce enough scoops to warrant SB space.
but enough about that...
lotus bloom: I don't think it's for this combo deck. This deck is using each turn to really sculpt it's hand, play draw spells, play prisms to setup later turns, and it's mana in setting up is usually very tied up while trying to go off very quickly. Lotus bloom is for a more control oriented combo that will wait patiently for turn 4 or 5 before going off after having disrupted the opponent, or stabilized a measure of protecting the combo.
Basically, lotus bloom is for when you want your hands free for a few turns. Think about, you put it out turn 1, play a land, pass the turn. Respond with permission, eot draw, or hand/board disruption if necessary. Repeat until 4th turn, go off with excess mana to respond to any counterspells, stifles, etc.
No. This deck is supposed to be a balls to walls combo deck that rages like the neighbors dog ripping apart your fence to get into your yard to catch that rodent he saw from first turn to last. Lotus bloom is too slow, faster aggro is going to kill you before you ever get to use it unless you have some way of cheating the suspend mechanic that doesn't use yet another card which is only suitable for that purpose and has no synergy with the rest of the deck. That's the reason i don't like twiddesire either, because if you had one piece without the other the best it can do is either mana fix and lose 2 mana in the process, or untap a brass city to add to the storm count...
Take that as you will, I just wanted to voice why this card doesn't fit this deck, instead of just saying that it doesn't.
I agree that lotus bloom is very slow for the deck but I don't believe that Rule of Law is one of the cards people in extended play would consder using even in the sideboard... This is because the most prolific decks out there now are Boros, Psychatog/Ichorid/Dredge, and Scepter-Chant, all of which doesn't require more than 2 spells to play.:( Though Rule of Law messes up Scepter-Chant a lot because it will have to consider when to use Fire // Ice. :3 But I still doubt anyone would try to board it in either when facing against a Heartbeat Storm Deck. T_T' (I'd rather use Stifle for its flexibility.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On the works: Leyline Deck Wins
:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
phoenix: I don't know about you, but from what I've seen, decks in legacy and extended do sometimes SB arcane lab/rule of law. Mostly either control decks to even the odds against aggro, or legacy manland decks that don't need to play spells to end the game. And in combo heavy environments, it can induce enough scoops to warrant SB space.
As far as i know, arcane laboratory and rule of law were never played in current extended to even the odds against aggro decks.( How the hell does it do that? It limits the control decks from playing end of turn spells as long as the aggro deck plays at least 1 spell per turn. Not to mention the aggro deck will most likely have more threats down, in which case, they(lab/law) will cause you to lose.)
As the Fluke32 mentioned, there are better cards than that.
lotus bloom: I don't think it's for this combo deck. This deck is using each turn to really sculpt it's hand, play draw spells, play prisms to setup later turns, and it's mana in setting up is usually very tied up while trying to go off very quickly. Lotus bloom is for a more control oriented combo that will wait patiently for turn 4 or 5 before going off after having disrupted the opponent, or stabilized a measure of protecting the combo.
Basically, lotus bloom is for when you want your hands free for a few turns. Think about, you put it out turn 1, play a land, pass the turn. Respond with permission, eot draw, or hand/board disruption if necessary. Repeat until 4th turn, go off with excess mana to respond to any counterspells, stifles, etc.
No. This deck is supposed to be a balls to walls combo deck that rages like the neighbors dog ripping apart your fence to get into your yard to catch that rodent he saw from first turn to last. Lotus bloom is too slow, faster aggro is going to kill you before you ever get to use it unless you have some way of cheating the suspend mechanic that doesn't use yet another card which is only suitable for that purpose and has no synergy with the rest of the deck. That's the reason i don't like twiddesire either, because if you had one piece without the other the best it can do is either mana fix and lose 2 mana in the process, or untap a brass city to add to the storm count...
Take that as you will, I just wanted to voice why this card doesn't fit this deck, instead of just saying that it doesn't.
Yes, i agree with what you mentioned.
But until the card officially comes out and we know officially how it works and what ways to optimally use it, there is no point in guessing how it will perform or work in this deck.
And i don't need lessons on how to play the deck when i already know the concept of this deck and what to do to win even without thinking.
My most updated decklist--
P.S. Notice there is only 1 Tendrils of Agony in my entire decklist.
I may put 2 in SB or 1 MB and 1 SB, taking out 1 pyroclasm/firebolt if need be.)
Say they play cranial extraction on game 2 and name burning wish. You still have 1 MD.
They name Tendrils? You play Wish.
( That is, the deck does not play MD cranial extraction, and it manages to stall you to be unable to go off turn 4.)
Preboard goldfishing
( Minimium storm count for me to go off is storm 5 or storm 4 if in desperate times, and have no draw any of the 3 Desire/Sins on my deck)
( Average storm count for me to go off on turn 4 is 7.)
( Average storm count for me to go off turn 3 is 6.)
I have turn 5, 95% combo off
I have turn 4, 90% combo off
turn 3, 20% combo off
and only one turn 2 combo off and three turn 6 combo off out of approximately 100 goldfishing games with myself.
I have also handscrewed before for 3 times out of approximately 100 games.( meaning mulliganing to 4 cards or less and not being able to go off fast enough due to too little cards.)
I have also fizzled off 4 times out of the approximately 100 games i goldfished.
2 at storm 5
1 at storm 6
1 at storm 9
I am now playing 2 peer through depths, i find them quite useful and is still in the process of testing them out. i dont see them to be any better than infernal tutor in terms of usefulness.
About the situation regarding having a land in hand and being unable to effectively cast infernal tutor for a potential winning card. I must say, it has happened before. But now, at least for me, it no longer happens as i can cope with it. ( It has a lot to do with mulliganing effectively and analysing if your hand is worth keeping or not.)( I do not know how to tell you but if you present me with a situation, i can tell you the way.)
I am testing out serum powder and seeing if it has a slot in this deck.
At best, it allows you to mulligan effectively.
At worse it helps by giving 1 mana in any way possible to cast it.
It is an idea to prevent bad hand draws. Still in the process of testing.
Stamford
P.S. Would anyone care to write an article/primer with me about this deck? At around mid of October?
d.pheonixxx, after extensive testing I discovered peer thru depth to be sub-par due to it's mana requirement, it needs our most precious blue mana, so i'm running plunge into darkness and tainted pact as draw.
Also, I think Serum visions is no better than mana fixing like darkwater egg because they both draw you one card but the egg is more useful as our biggest enemy is mana requirements.
On serum powder I believe it will be too situational, as drawing it mid game (which is like 50%) will mean dead card, that's the exact situation with lotus bloom.
About the article/primer thing, maybe I could help you on weekends, if my help is needed. The new semester is going to start soon, so I can't spend loads of time on this, but on weekends will be ok.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't play magic cuz Ima little sheep.
[Team littlesheep]
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
A primer would be fruitless if you're still playing incredibly subpar cards like Serum Visions and Peer through Depths. Don't take this as an insult, but the deck's resilency is not the best. It's something you'll just have to accept. That said, instead of adding speed, start inputting cards that help the problem matchups. False Dawn serves as a pseudo-Bound // Determined (testing has shown it is a must counter card), while also speeding up the critical turn and being extremely useful in terms of mana fixing and cantripping. Sensei's Divining Top is also a card that raises resiliency, especially against discard. Instead of speed and the "cool factor," start adding respectable cards that have other uses than just to aid the combo--it's strong enough as it is.
Sephiroth Owa: your decklist is more like a combination of mind's desire and dragonstorm? imo that is entirely overkill, when you resolve a mind's desire with an ok storm count, you already win, there's no need to flip a dragonstorm into kokushos, although that is a cool win. I mean, adding dragonstorm and kokushos simply adds dead cards to the deck and takes up more win condition slots that could be dedicated to mana fixing or tutoring.
Lubabah: Top is sub-par in this deck too, it is too slow in a deck that wins turn 3 or 4 and relies on CIP-tapped lands to win, that have been tested, also, why is False Dawn a must counter? I fail to see that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't play magic cuz Ima little sheep.
[Team littlesheep]
Lubabah: Top is sub-par in this deck too, it is too slow in a deck that wins turn 3 or 4 and relies on CIP-tapped lands to win, that have been tested, also, why is False Dawn a must counter? I fail to see that.
Statements like these prove you've only tested the deck 4 or 5 times.
Statements like these prove you've only tested the deck 4 or 5 times.
Really, I tested the top like 20 games, with false dawn like 30 games. the entire deck like 100 games or so. Please explain your choices rather than saying such words.
That makes me wonder how many total games I have played. 9 tournaments X 4-6 matches per tournament X 2-3 games per match. Thats be between 72 and 168 Tourment games alone, and that is only tournamet games alone, which are merely a fraction of the total games at least. All in all, I have probably played 500+ games with this deck(which is strange, because I don't think I have kept 1 deck for that long since Life.dec).
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I've been tinkering with deck for about 3 weeks now, and each and every 2-3 hours, I find another thing that can be used in the deck, so I think, that should count to about more than 200 games per week or so...
Lubabah, since this is a fast deck, please refrain to using the # of tests with the deck.:P If you want to keep downing people like that, please remind yourself that this deck is pretty fast thus the # of games to be played increase rapidly each and everyday, thus making # of testing an invalid choice of argument when discounting another persons findings. (I don't have any grudges against you so please don't flame me... *runs to a corner, hiding behind a chair*)
d.pheonixxx, after extensive testing I discovered peer thru depth to be sub-par due to it's mana requirement, it needs our most precious blue mana, so i'm running plunge into darkness and tainted pact as draw.
Also, I think Serum visions is no better than mana fixing like darkwater egg because they both draw you one card but the egg is more useful as our biggest enemy is mana requirements.
On serum powder I believe it will be too situational, as drawing it mid game (which is like 50%) will mean dead card, that's the exact situation with lotus bloom.
About the article/primer thing, maybe I could help you on weekends, if my help is needed. The new semester is going to start soon, so I can't spend loads of time on this, but on weekends will be ok.
Suit yourself. Its a personal preference.
I prefer not losing life and not having random cards that can screw up anywhere just about any time.
If you look at the current deck.
It runs 16 lands, 4 moxes.
16 LANDS, 4 MOXES
Even with 16 lands, i can sometimes get hands without a single land at all.
Chances of me getting 1 land is also very high.
Chances of me getting 2 lands is the highest.
Chances of me getting 1 land and a mox is also very high.
When i run serum visions, i particularly like the idea of being able to setup your next draw or put 2 useless cards at the bottom of the library.
It allows 1 to essentially dig 3(+1 unknown card) cards deeper. At a price of 1 mana.
I often get hands that have only 1 land. And if i did not draw a second land, i would pretty much be slowed down.
Since 16/60 is 25% chance of having a land, it would mean theorotically, 1 land per 4 cards. But Magic does not work that way. I can still get 1 land hands and not draw a single land for the next 3 turns. Serum visions allows me to skip at least 3 turns' worth of draws to get what i want, at the price of U mana.
Not to mention if i already had 3 lands in my hand, i can choose not to draw lands as well.
You might argue that SDT can do the same thing, sure. but it cannot put cards at the bottom. It requires essentially 2 mana to work.
For me, casting serum visions and peer through depths had never been a problem for me. At least, i managed to cast them 14 times out of 15 games without much mana problems.
i do not know how you tested serum visions or peer through depths to be subpar, but for me it has been working amazingly.
The chances of you casting serum visions and peer through depths are the same as the chances of you casting tainted pact or plunge into darkness.
Just look at my lands and you will see why.
There is an equal chance in both of the cards.
And also, if you ran false dawn, mana requirement is hardly even a problem.
my point is, it is a personal preference. I have no problems casting them due to mana requirements at all.
A primer would be fruitless if you're still playing incredibly subpar cards like Serum Visions and Peer through Depths. Don't take this as an insult, but the deck's resilency is not the best. It's something you'll just have to accept. That said, instead of adding speed, start inputting cards that help the problem matchups. False Dawn serves as a pseudo-Bound // Determined (testing has shown it is a must counter card), while also speeding up the critical turn and being extremely useful in terms of mana fixing and cantripping. Sensei's Divining Top is also a card that raises resiliency, especially against discard. Instead of speed and the "cool factor," start adding respectable cards that have other uses than just to aid the combo--it's strong enough as it is.
Yes it raises resiliency. But considering the metagame now is predominantly aggro, there is not much of resilience going about. Hand disruption decks are seldom winning. So why do you need resilience? Since there are so many aggro decks, we need more speed to be able to win before they do.
Sephiroth Owa: your decklist is more like a combination of mind's desire and dragonstorm? imo that is entirely overkill, when you resolve a mind's desire with an ok storm count, you already win, there's no need to flip a dragonstorm into kokushos, although that is a cool win. I mean, adding dragonstorm and kokushos simply adds dead cards to the deck and takes up more win condition slots that could be dedicated to mana fixing or tutoring.
Lubabah: Top is sub-par in this deck too, it is too slow in a deck that wins turn 3 or 4 and relies on CIP-tapped lands to win, that have been tested, also, why is False Dawn a must counter? I fail to see that.
False Dawn is a must counter becuase it is a precursor to going off, if your opponent knows what you are playing.
False Dawn is a must counter becuase it is a precursor to going off, if your opponent knows what you are playing.
It is indeed a precursor, but According to my play experience against U/B tog and Scepter chant, the main goal when playing against counter decks is to get enough mana to cast mind's desire, most of the time, that means resolving enough rituals, or after one ritual being countered, resolve other rituals to fill the gap, so I think if we cast False Dawn before going off, counter decks is not going to counter that (and during my testing no one countered false dawn, my opponents all know how this deck works) because it wastes 2 mana for an effect that do not gain us any mana advantage except fixing colors, which sometimes isn't even needed. So if they let us resolve False Dawn, we will be 2 mana down and our rituals will be much easier to counter.
Also, when playing combo decks, counter decks tend to counter the spell before going off, not the first spell when going off. For example, if they counter the last ritual before desire is casted, all previous spells will lead to nothing, if they counter false dawn, we could still try to go off next turn with the rituals and other cards in hand.
So still why is False Dawn so valuable to be a must counter?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't play magic cuz Ima little sheep.
[Team littlesheep]
It is indeed a precursor, but According to my play experience against U/B tog and Scepter chant, the main goal when playing against counter decks is to get enough mana to cast mind's desire, most of the time, that means resolving enough rituals, or after one ritual being countered, resolve other rituals to fill the gap, so I think if we cast False Dawn before going off, counter decks is not going to counter that (and during my testing no one countered false dawn, my opponents all know how this deck works) because it wastes 2 mana for an effect that do not gain us any mana advantage except fixing colors, which sometimes isn't even needed. So if they let us resolve False Dawn, we will be 2 mana down and our rituals will be much easier to counter.
Also, when playing combo decks, counter decks tend to counter the spell before going off, not the first spell when going off. For example, if they counter the last ritual before desire is casted, all previous spells will lead to nothing, if they counter false dawn, we could still try to go off next turn with the rituals and other cards in hand.
So still why is False Dawn so valuable to be a must counter?
i suppose so...
Even if false dawn is not countered, it still nets you a card, which is in no way any bad or worse.
It is also very good for mana fixing.
Sometimes when you dont manage to draw your prisms, you can still use false dawn as the mana fixer.
There is no bad points in the card.
I am not that sure abut whether false dawn will be countered or not.
But i definitely know that pentad prism, burning wish, infernal tutor are must counters. (after sideboarding.)
Yeah, my point is as simple as false dawn do not equal to bound/determined.
It is indeed a very good mana fixing, but imo against disruption it is no better than darkwater egg, because it's effect is temporary, and must be cast before every other spell, and darkwater egg could be cast turn 1. They both net you a card, but the egg is more resilient imo.
In my experience, counter decks tend to counter seething song alot, because if countered, it costs us 3 mana. Channel the Suns and Cabal Ritual are also frequent targets.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't play magic cuz Ima little sheep.
[Team littlesheep]
you mean how to deal with it, or whether we should play it? and... im not quite sure how we deal with it...but im pretty sure we shouldnt run it, like why give space to something not necessary to go off.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
and phonixx...why do you say it sucks without even testing it, werent you the advocate of "test it then tell me what you thinK"...if you already tested it and found that its bad sorry for this minor rant. Anyway in my testing as i already said so far 2 md and 1 sb is good...
and btw reshape does work that way im 100% sure....i mean no mana cost = 0 or less
and on crystall quarry, why not run 1?.....itll actually help you if you play tainted pact
-----------------
edit: speaking of search engines .....how bout runnning one of the familiars and a xantid swarm to MD...to be abel to run diabolic intent as tutor......just an idea.....im just trying to find a good search engine and im just searching for ideas....
on a more serious note....do you think krosan grip (the new card with split second) spells the end of scepter chant? and if it doeas do we need to stop worrying about controll? just a question
on the reshape combo, even if it does work, i see no meaning in using two cards to trade for 1 additional mana, that is much less efficency than the rituals we run.
on the diabolic intent, i thought about running a creature build but gave up due to inconsistency and lack of pace of creature based mana acceleraion, if only running familiars and xantid swarm, diabolic intent would be very situational, i think only a deck with 20 or so creatures could diabolic intent be used to its maxium efficency.
on Krosan grip, i think it will be at least sb'd by lots of decks but i doubt it will spell the end of any deck. It don't ruin the control basis of scepter chant, just making the chant lock more breakable. I think that will result in less scepter based control elements and more traditional control elements employed by no-stick, which i think makes the matchup worse for us. We really don't care about helixes imprinted, but cares if the helixes and scepters are changed for counterspells and mana leaks (just an example). However, if a powerful solution or threat will be printed with split second, only that would damage the basis of control alot.
[Team littlesheep]
1) how much mana fixing is absolutly required In your oppinions to keep the deck running smoothly.....4-8?....
2) i remember some people ran meddling mage ...how did that turn out?
3) do any of you win enough at turn 2 that its worth mentioning ...like 10-20%.....? how bout turn 3 ...i remember an old percentage of 45% on turn 3...but that hasnt been true......what about your builds?
1, my current build run 4 chromatic sphere 3 darkwater egg and 3 pentad prism, also i run 3 md 1 sb channel the suns, it runs smoothly enough. However maybe it's too much, only extensive testing will show the answer.
2, as my suspicious and cautionous attitude to all those odd additions, i don't think meddling mage will be frequently casted enough to make a difference...
3, my build averages a no more than 5% percent of t2 wins. t3 wins are like 25-30%. My build have a about 15% chance to fizzle (failed desire flippes counts toward fizzling), however. A encouraging thing is that yesterday night i suceeded in pulling off a t1 kill (with triple rite of flame, darkwater egg, chromatic sphere, archaelogical dig and mind's desire in hand), I stormed for 7 and made the kill. I do believe our deck is the only tier 2 or above deck in extended that could do a t1 kill.
[Team littlesheep]
k thanks...wow 13 mana fixing md......wow
lol i came up with a causal extended build with a 5% chance to win turn 1 playing first and a 10% chance on the draw :)...if it didnt win turn 1 you tried to win turn 2.....if not you lost
hmm...ill probably uses 8 mana fixing..hmmmi think 13 md is just too much...
I found myself gradually putting more and more mana fixers after more and more testing... my first build, which run 4 moxen 3 chromatic sphere, 3 pentad prism and 3 channel the suns fizzle like 30%, most of the time it's due to mana problems.
[Team littlesheep]
Currently my build ran the following:
15 rituals (including channel the suns)
10 mana fixers
4 moxen
4 wish
6 tutor
6 sins/desire
15 lands
and it's pretty solid. I'm wondering what you added in place of my mana fixing and stuff.
[Team littlesheep]
15 Rituals
17 lands
8 Combo (desire, grapeshot, tendrils)
7 Distruption
4 wish
3 tutor
6 mana fixing
thats my version so far.....its still in the works (this is the moxless version im currently testing)
i geuss ill follow your example and put in more mana fixing and tutoring...hmm..
but enough about that...
lotus bloom: I don't think it's for this combo deck. This deck is using each turn to really sculpt it's hand, play draw spells, play prisms to setup later turns, and it's mana in setting up is usually very tied up while trying to go off very quickly. Lotus bloom is for a more control oriented combo that will wait patiently for turn 4 or 5 before going off after having disrupted the opponent, or stabilized a measure of protecting the combo.
Basically, lotus bloom is for when you want your hands free for a few turns. Think about, you put it out turn 1, play a land, pass the turn. Respond with permission, eot draw, or hand/board disruption if necessary. Repeat until 4th turn, go off with excess mana to respond to any counterspells, stifles, etc.
No. This deck is supposed to be a balls to walls combo deck that rages like the neighbors dog ripping apart your fence to get into your yard to catch that rodent he saw from first turn to last. Lotus bloom is too slow, faster aggro is going to kill you before you ever get to use it unless you have some way of cheating the suspend mechanic that doesn't use yet another card which is only suitable for that purpose and has no synergy with the rest of the deck. That's the reason i don't like twiddesire either, because if you had one piece without the other the best it can do is either mana fix and lose 2 mana in the process, or untap a brass city to add to the storm count...
Take that as you will, I just wanted to voice why this card doesn't fit this deck, instead of just saying that it doesn't.
I agree that lotus bloom is very slow for the deck but I don't believe that Rule of Law is one of the cards people in extended play would consder using even in the sideboard... This is because the most prolific decks out there now are Boros, Psychatog/Ichorid/Dredge, and Scepter-Chant, all of which doesn't require more than 2 spells to play.:( Though Rule of Law messes up Scepter-Chant a lot because it will have to consider when to use Fire // Ice. :3 But I still doubt anyone would try to board it in either when facing against a Heartbeat Storm Deck. T_T' (I'd rather use Stifle for its flexibility.)
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
As far as i know, arcane laboratory and rule of law were never played in current extended to even the odds against aggro decks.( How the hell does it do that? It limits the control decks from playing end of turn spells as long as the aggro deck plays at least 1 spell per turn. Not to mention the aggro deck will most likely have more threats down, in which case, they(lab/law) will cause you to lose.)
As the Fluke32 mentioned, there are better cards than that.
Yes, i agree with what you mentioned.
But until the card officially comes out and we know officially how it works and what ways to optimally use it, there is no point in guessing how it will perform or work in this deck.
And i don't need lessons on how to play the deck when i already know the concept of this deck and what to do to win even without thinking.
My most updated decklist--
3 Mind's Desire
3 Sins of the Past
3 Channel the Suns
4 Seething Song
2 False Dawn
2 Peer Through Depths
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Pentad Prism
4 Serum Visions
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Ancient Spring
4 Sulfur Vent
1 Firebolt
1 Pyroclasm
4 Mana Short
1 Channel the Suns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Temporal Fissure
1 Sins of the Past
1 Mind's Desire
P.S. Notice there is only 1 Tendrils of Agony in my entire decklist.
I may put 2 in SB or 1 MB and 1 SB, taking out 1 pyroclasm/firebolt if need be.)
Say they play cranial extraction on game 2 and name burning wish. You still have 1 MD.
They name Tendrils? You play Wish.
( That is, the deck does not play MD cranial extraction, and it manages to stall you to be unable to go off turn 4.)
Preboard goldfishing
( Minimium storm count for me to go off is storm 5 or storm 4 if in desperate times, and have no draw any of the 3 Desire/Sins on my deck)
( Average storm count for me to go off on turn 4 is 7.)
( Average storm count for me to go off turn 3 is 6.)
I have turn 5, 95% combo off
I have turn 4, 90% combo off
turn 3, 20% combo off
and only one turn 2 combo off and three turn 6 combo off out of approximately 100 goldfishing games with myself.
I have also handscrewed before for 3 times out of approximately 100 games.( meaning mulliganing to 4 cards or less and not being able to go off fast enough due to too little cards.)
I have also fizzled off 4 times out of the approximately 100 games i goldfished.
2 at storm 5
1 at storm 6
1 at storm 9
I am now playing 2 peer through depths, i find them quite useful and is still in the process of testing them out. i dont see them to be any better than infernal tutor in terms of usefulness.
About the situation regarding having a land in hand and being unable to effectively cast infernal tutor for a potential winning card. I must say, it has happened before. But now, at least for me, it no longer happens as i can cope with it. ( It has a lot to do with mulliganing effectively and analysing if your hand is worth keeping or not.)( I do not know how to tell you but if you present me with a situation, i can tell you the way.)
I am testing out serum powder and seeing if it has a slot in this deck.
At best, it allows you to mulligan effectively.
At worse it helps by giving 1 mana in any way possible to cast it.
It is an idea to prevent bad hand draws. Still in the process of testing.
Stamford
P.S. Would anyone care to write an article/primer with me about this deck? At around mid of October?
:symu::symr::symb::symg::symw:The Extended Perfect Storm:symu::symr::symb::symg::symw:
TEPS thread:
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=295030&sid=10b2b4e12275e7be97b928fb7f766943
Also, I think Serum visions is no better than mana fixing like darkwater egg because they both draw you one card but the egg is more useful as our biggest enemy is mana requirements.
On serum powder I believe it will be too situational, as drawing it mid game (which is like 50%) will mean dead card, that's the exact situation with lotus bloom.
About the article/primer thing, maybe I could help you on weekends, if my help is needed. The new semester is going to start soon, so I can't spend loads of time on this, but on weekends will be ok.
[Team littlesheep]
My other banners not in use
Goodbye Cruel World, It's Over, Walk On By
Follow
Lubabah: Top is sub-par in this deck too, it is too slow in a deck that wins turn 3 or 4 and relies on CIP-tapped lands to win, that have been tested, also, why is False Dawn a must counter? I fail to see that.
[Team littlesheep]
Statements like these prove you've only tested the deck 4 or 5 times.
Really, I tested the top like 20 games, with false dawn like 30 games. the entire deck like 100 games or so. Please explain your choices rather than saying such words.
[Team littlesheep]
Lubabah, since this is a fast deck, please refrain to using the # of tests with the deck.:P If you want to keep downing people like that, please remind yourself that this deck is pretty fast thus the # of games to be played increase rapidly each and everyday, thus making # of testing an invalid choice of argument when discounting another persons findings. (I don't have any grudges against you so please don't flame me... *runs to a corner, hiding behind a chair*)
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
Suit yourself. Its a personal preference.
I prefer not losing life and not having random cards that can screw up anywhere just about any time.
Why i insist on running serum visions---
If you look at the current deck.
It runs 16 lands, 4 moxes.
16 LANDS, 4 MOXES
Even with 16 lands, i can sometimes get hands without a single land at all.
Chances of me getting 1 land is also very high.
Chances of me getting 2 lands is the highest.
Chances of me getting 1 land and a mox is also very high.
When i run serum visions, i particularly like the idea of being able to setup your next draw or put 2 useless cards at the bottom of the library.
It allows 1 to essentially dig 3(+1 unknown card) cards deeper. At a price of 1 mana.
I often get hands that have only 1 land. And if i did not draw a second land, i would pretty much be slowed down.
Since 16/60 is 25% chance of having a land, it would mean theorotically, 1 land per 4 cards. But Magic does not work that way. I can still get 1 land hands and not draw a single land for the next 3 turns.
Serum visions allows me to skip at least 3 turns' worth of draws to get what i want, at the price of U mana.
Not to mention if i already had 3 lands in my hand, i can choose not to draw lands as well.
You might argue that SDT can do the same thing, sure. but it cannot put cards at the bottom. It requires essentially 2 mana to work.
For me, casting serum visions and peer through depths had never been a problem for me. At least, i managed to cast them 14 times out of 15 games without much mana problems.
i do not know how you tested serum visions or peer through depths to be subpar, but for me it has been working amazingly.
The chances of you casting serum visions and peer through depths are the same as the chances of you casting tainted pact or plunge into darkness.
Just look at my lands and you will see why.
There is an equal chance in both of the cards.
And also, if you ran false dawn, mana requirement is hardly even a problem.
my point is, it is a personal preference. I have no problems casting them due to mana requirements at all.
It has been suggested and rejected as subpar long time ago...
Yes it raises resiliency. But considering the metagame now is predominantly aggro, there is not much of resilience going about. Hand disruption decks are seldom winning. So why do you need resilience? Since there are so many aggro decks, we need more speed to be able to win before they do.
False Dawn is a must counter becuase it is a precursor to going off, if your opponent knows what you are playing.
:symu::symr::symb::symg::symw:The Extended Perfect Storm:symu::symr::symb::symg::symw:
TEPS thread:
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=295030&sid=10b2b4e12275e7be97b928fb7f766943
It is indeed a precursor, but According to my play experience against U/B tog and Scepter chant, the main goal when playing against counter decks is to get enough mana to cast mind's desire, most of the time, that means resolving enough rituals, or after one ritual being countered, resolve other rituals to fill the gap, so I think if we cast False Dawn before going off, counter decks is not going to counter that (and during my testing no one countered false dawn, my opponents all know how this deck works) because it wastes 2 mana for an effect that do not gain us any mana advantage except fixing colors, which sometimes isn't even needed. So if they let us resolve False Dawn, we will be 2 mana down and our rituals will be much easier to counter.
Also, when playing combo decks, counter decks tend to counter the spell before going off, not the first spell when going off. For example, if they counter the last ritual before desire is casted, all previous spells will lead to nothing, if they counter false dawn, we could still try to go off next turn with the rituals and other cards in hand.
So still why is False Dawn so valuable to be a must counter?
[Team littlesheep]
i suppose so...
Even if false dawn is not countered, it still nets you a card, which is in no way any bad or worse.
It is also very good for mana fixing.
Sometimes when you dont manage to draw your prisms, you can still use false dawn as the mana fixer.
There is no bad points in the card.
I am not that sure abut whether false dawn will be countered or not.
But i definitely know that pentad prism, burning wish, infernal tutor are must counters. (after sideboarding.)
:symu::symr::symb::symg::symw:The Extended Perfect Storm:symu::symr::symb::symg::symw:
TEPS thread:
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=295030&sid=10b2b4e12275e7be97b928fb7f766943
It is indeed a very good mana fixing, but imo against disruption it is no better than darkwater egg, because it's effect is temporary, and must be cast before every other spell, and darkwater egg could be cast turn 1. They both net you a card, but the egg is more resilient imo.
In my experience, counter decks tend to counter seething song alot, because if countered, it costs us 3 mana. Channel the Suns and Cabal Ritual are also frequent targets.
[Team littlesheep]
you mean how to deal with it, or whether we should play it? and... im not quite sure how we deal with it...but im pretty sure we shouldnt run it, like why give space to something not necessary to go off.
My other banners not in use
Goodbye Cruel World, It's Over, Walk On By
Follow