Yes, it is just an egg, no worries...Eh, wait a minute...how many counters are on that thing? One? That means that next turn you have a 10/10 trample? Oh, 13/13. Hmmm....
We tested this card when it came out as it looked hard to evaluate without testing. Does it play like a mediocre wall or as a levelling finisher?
First drafts it did ok, but not super. Mainly because we lacked faith and it was often put into the side board. But then we started noticing that when played it was never bad. A 0/3 wall is good for control against aggro decks, who are full with 2/x creature. The biggest surprise for us however was how fast this thing becomes a 13/13 trample! Control often has some excess mana at the end of the opponents turn if they didn't have to counter. If there is one counter on the Egg, then your opponent becomes worried about what a huge trample will do with his face.
13/13 is ridiculously big:o It cannot be killed by blockers most of the time. It can race with the best. A lot of aggressive decks hurt themselves left and right (fetch lands, shocklands, zombies, Bitterblossom,...) and suddenly 13 damage feels pretty lethal.
This card was first included because it looked funny and was hard to evaluate. As blue is so tight we always hesitated to keep it in or not, but we couldn't cut a card that won so many matches. Now we are at a point were this card is actually picked quite highly. People respect it, and if they don't getting crushed once by a angry Lizard teaches them the error of their ways.
I would suggest giving this card a chance. Put it in your cube and put it in your decks. Yes, it is just a 0/3, but it has so much potential for a mere two drop that it is worth a spot in your decks.
For those who are unsure and feel it will cost to much mana and time, remember it is a two drop. It's level up ability plays way better then sorcery speed level up. It is a difference of day and night. One random level up and you are very close to having a beastly 13/13. If they kill it, they have killed your two drop, so no big loss.
I think it's one of those cards that are clearly not in cubes based on power level alone, but it's actually rather close and it's a cool card, so it's one of the perfectly acceptable pet cards.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Well for us it has passed the power test. We don't run cards for the cuteness factor and don't care about too 'boring' or too vanilla. LTS has proven to be a very good blue card, not just a cute egg pet card.
I think it's one of those cards that are clearly not in cubes based on power level alone, but it's actually rather close and it's a cool card, so it's one of the perfectly acceptable pet cards.
This is the general concensus, and it's dead wrong. This card is the real deal. It's a permanent part of our 450 purely based on merits.
I was very excited about this card when it was released, as it could be a nice sleeper pick for Cubes. Then I played it.
And it stunk.
All of the scenarios I envisioned basically never happened, and I don't think it was transformed once in the 4-6 months it was in my Cube. About the average play was blocking a 2-power guy and eating part of a burn spell or just straight up eating a removal spell. That's not exactly the kind of power I'm looking for out of a blue card, which is certainly the best color and therefore tightest competition for spots in the Cube.
I was very excited about this card when it was released, as it could be a nice sleeper pick for Cubes. Then I played it.
And it stunk.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. It was pretty darn bad when we tested it, and I really wanted it to be good because it's such a cool and fun card. But it was just a 2cc Wall of Wood most of the time, unless you pay the extra 10 mana to have it get Doom Bladed.
DrawGo style decks almost never get built in my cube, so it just seems a big mana sink that eats removal. If it were just one more toughness then red would have a much harder time keeping tempo (burn blocker out, swing) if you drop it early. Then at ten mana to transform, you'll always be giving the opponent a window to kill it since you'll probably never have the mana to get it flipped in one turn. It is modal, which is good, but neither mode is superior IMO, so I dont run it.
I think it's fine for what it is. I wish the counters were +1/+1 counters instead, just to put it out of the range of burn a bit more.
If your intention is to put up a wall early and then play counters, and the mana you're investing in the creature wouldn't be used for other spells, it's fine. At worst it demands a removal spell, and at best you have a late-game creature.
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EDH BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores WGB RUG Riku of Two Reflections GUR WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion BW
I just gotta say, this is a card you can theorycraft about all day long, but it just performs in real life. I've been running it in my own cube for the last couple of weeks, and it just wins games you have no business winning.
It sure does perform...horribly. This card theorycrafted MUCH better than it actually played out for us; it literally NEVER transformed in all the time it was in my Cube, and was quite bad every time it was played (especially in the context of how the other blue Cube cards played).
Getting there is tricky too, as you have to protect it along the way. It's true, they can just Doom Blade it, but you can counter the Doom Blade. Do you tap out on their end step to load up counters? Do they leave mana up to represent a kill spell and keep you from tapping out? How are the next turns going to play out?
Or, as we found out, you had to block a 3-power guy. Or they bolted/incinerated/etc it. Or you blocked a 2-power guy and then they Arc Trailed/Lightninged it + more. Or you got to 3 counters or so and then they pre-emptively killed it so they took the decision out of your hands.
Literally none of the ways it actually played out made it worth the mana/spot in the Cube.
I played an Esper control deck this weekend, and it surprised me how often the correct move was to max this guy out and swing for 13. One game I was getting pounded by Bitterblossom tokens and all sorts of things, and was able to dance around and transform this guy. The test subject hit him from 15 to 2, got Doom Bladed, then the opponent died to his Bitterblossom. It was awesome.
Did he have the Doom Blade in hand? What was he doing with his mana if he was tapped out? Did he realize you could transform it and attack? Why didn't he block with the untapped Bitterblossom token or other things? Was he planning on killing you on the swingback as to not die to the extra point from the 13/13?
It sure does perform...horribly. This card theorycrafted MUCH better than it actually played out for us; it literally NEVER transformed in all the time it was in my Cube, and was quite bad every time it was played (especially in the context of how the other blue Cube cards played).
Or, as we found out, you had to block a 3-power guy. Or they bolted/incinerated/etc it. Or you blocked a 2-power guy and then they Arc Trailed/Lightninged it + more. Or you got to 3 counters or so and then they pre-emptively killed it so they took the decision out of your hands.
Literally none of the ways it actually played out made it worth the mana/spot in the Cube.
Did he have the Doom Blade in hand? What was he doing with his mana if he was tapped out? Did he realize you could transform it and attack? Why didn't he block with the untapped Bitterblossom token or other things? Was he planning on killing you on the swingback as to not die to the extra point from the 13/13?
-AA
This is one of my pet cube cards, too, so I'll rise to its defense. My cube doesn't play many of blue's best cards due to budget constraints, so I have more room in the section than most. This card also has no place in small, highly constrained lists.
That said, this card has easily earned its keep in my cube. I think it's all about expectations. It's a wall, a speedbump against aggro decks or midrange small creatures, and you should never play it presuming it's going to transform. If I can play LTS, block once with it and draw a burn spell or a Doom Blade, then I count that as a victory.
It works very well with draw-go-ish decks, and reactive blue decks that want to hold mana up for instants--if you didn't need to play that counterspell, sink the otherwise-wasted mana into LTS counters. Midgame or lategame, the card can get close to transforming very easily at little extra cost, and then it's similar to the Greater Gargadon subgame--your opponent has to warp his game around the looming threat.
Psychologically, it can be frustrating to have your new 13/13 easily removed, but as long as you didn't use otherwise needed mana on it, you should just be glad they "wasted" a removal spell on your wall.
I just gotta say, this is a card you can theorycraft about all day long, but it just performs in real life. I've been running it in my own cube for the last couple of weeks, and it just wins games you have no business winning.
Getting there is tricky too, as you have to protect it along the way. It's true, they can just Doom Blade it, but you can counter the Doom Blade. Do you tap out on their end step to load up counters? Do they leave mana up to represent a kill spell and keep you from tapping out? How are the next turns going to play out?
I played an Esper control deck this weekend, and it surprised me how often the correct move was to max this guy out and swing for 13. One game I was getting pounded by Bitterblossom tokens and all sorts of things, and was able to dance around and transform this guy. The test subject hit him from 15 to 2, got Doom Bladed, then the opponent died to his Bitterblossom. It was awesome.
This is exactly how he has been performing here. Last draft this card was a huge problem every time it was cast in a red- blue control deck (controllish counterburn). Did it get removed sometimes? Sure. But the deck playing it didn't care when its opponent throw damage at a mere two drop wall.
On the other hand it did what Trunkers described, winning games out of nowhere, even against aggressive decks.
Why didn't he block with the untapped Bitterblossom token or other things?
You would need a serious army to block a 13/13 trample.
It is strange how different cards can play in different groups. This card has been highly efficient over here. Maybe some expect too much from it and are dissapointed when it is not a game winner right away? It only costs 1U and the mana you pump into it either doesn't matter or gets you a 13/13 right away. There is not that much instant removal that can deal with this (burn doesn't help most of the time)in our cube: Swords, Path, Go for the Throat, Beast Within, Into the Roil, Cyclonic Rift).
I am sure that not everybody will see the light and play this 'silly' card. But I hope some give it a shot in their lists and main deck it when drafted. If it plays like it has for us, it will prove its worth very fast.
This card also has no place in small, highly constrained lists.
Our list is a tight 450 list and it is pretty strong here. We don't keep cards because how cute or cool they are (if we did we would be too spikey during deck construction sadly). If we went down to 360 I am sure this card would have to fight hard to earn its place, but it would be a contented for those precious spots.
I really hate using the term "seeing the light" when advocating for a card.
Ok, sorry for using the wrong expression:rolleyes:.
I thought the meaning was clear. I don't think this card is a 360 staple and I don't look down on those with different experiences. I just wanted to share our positive experience with those who are open to it. Maybe for some it will play like it has here (it did for Trunkers), and maybe for some it will play like for you and Antknee.
Ok, sorry for using the wrong expression:rolleyes:.
I thought the meaning was clear. I don't think this card is a 360 staple and I don't look down on those with different experiences. I just wanted to share our positive experience with those who are open to it. Maybe for some it will play like it has here (it did for Trunkers), and maybe for some it will play like for you and Antknee.
I understand the goal of advocating for a card. I know you probably didn't mean anything slighting by it. I just don't happen to like the particular phrasing you used. No big deal.
I agree that real world experience can be better than theory craft, but unless every possible card is tested for months at a time in every configuration of cube its what most of us rely on with new additions. I have already made my arguments against the card so I won't rehash them, but I would like to contest the 'win out of nowhere' idea. It takes 12 mana to cast and transform the card, and even then it doesn't have haste, so it doesn't 'win out of nowhere'. Its on the board in all but the latest top decks for at least one turn in egg form which is quite vulnerable to most of the removal in typical cubes. Your opponent can also see that you start spending mana into him and have a chance to prep to stop him or kill you before the beast emerges.
The way it plays out here is that it gets played right away and it gets a counter somewhere the next turn or two.
Then 'suddenly' in their end of turn you charge it for two and in your turn you have a 13/13. Sure this is not impossible to predict or take into account, but an Egg with one counter looks harmless to most players. If you got flattened a few times, it actually start looking dangerous.
The window to deal with it is generally pretty small, unless you get rid of it when it has zero or just one counter and then the owner doesn't really card as it just a 1U wall.
I am certainly going to consider adding this guy. Finishers that don't sit in your hand and do nothing for the first fiver to seven turns are a rarity, and three toughness blocks a lotta guys.
Psychologically, it can be frustrating to have your new 13/13 easily removed, but as long as you didn't use otherwise needed mana on it, you should just be glad they "wasted" a removal spell on your wall.
Except that it wasn't wasted. If you drop this turn two, and they bolt it so they can continue to to hit you with their one drop, you continue to eat damage on curve, a win for the aggro deck. Compare to Perimeter Captain, who with 4 toughness makes most red removal lackluster, forcing a block and burn which loses the aggro deck a turn of damage and gives the defender two extra life, which might mean another whole turn on the clock. If you get LTS late, its a 12 mana finisher. Compare that to Inkwell Leviathan. Yes, its both cards at the same time, which I realize has value, but I don't see the modality overcoming its weaknesses.
Blocking with a token = 1 less damage taken, which means one extra turn of not dying to Bitterblossom, which can mean an additional chunk of damage to hang on your opponent depending on the number of tokens you have. He didn't need to kill it; he needed to live long enough to kill you since he had an answer for the 13/13. He was likely thinking that blocking only was worth 1 damage, when in fact it was worth an entire additional turn to kill you with tokens (which, with Blossom [whoa], can be quite a bit with an additional turn).
Killing out of nowhere: It's like your opponent having an on-board trick (like an active Grim Lavamancer), and trying to Giant Growth your 2/2. People should be seeing this card coming a mile away. The only tension or 'trickiness' it has is when you have enough mana to activate it twice that trigger the transform and your opponent has a removal spell based on P/T. Otherwise, they just respond to the activation that flips it.
What players want: You obviously know this better than anyone, so if your group likes it then run it, obviously. But Augur of Bolas seems much more reasonable to me than what my experiences with the Subject have taught me. At least Augur can eat one toughness creatures.
Small Window: So if you want an early-turn card that does something, that means you are playing it on t2-3. That means, on turn 2, they can deal with it on t2, t3 (one counter), t4 (three counters total), and possibly t5 (last two counters). This also means that you can't do anything else with your mana...if you do, it exposes it longer!
Except that it wasn't wasted. If you drop this turn two, and they bolt it so they can continue to to hit you with their one drop, you continue to eat damage on curve, a win for the aggro deck. Compare to Perimeter Captain, who with 4 toughness makes most red removal lackluster, forcing a block and burn which loses the aggro deck a turn of damage and gives the defender two extra life, which might mean another whole turn on the clock. If you get LTS late, its a 12 mana finisher. Compare that to Inkwell Leviathan. Yes, its both cards at the same time, which I realize has value, but I don't see the modality overcoming its weaknesses.
It's a bit unfair to compare a modal blue wall/finisher against the single best white answer to red aggro decks. (I think most cubes don't run cards like Perimeter Captain and Timely Reinforcements because it's hard enough to support aggro successfully in most cubes, in fact.) Blue doesn't have a lot of two-drop anti-aggro permanents--in most cubes, there are none.
I've nothing to add here (except that I randomly found one when looking through stuff and found that I have nowhere near the room for it, but that may be more of a testament to how stupidly tight blue gets, especially when fitting in tempo things) ... well, I guess that was something!
Anyway, to what I was thinking - is Ludevic pronounced with a hard C or a slavic C where the C is pronounced like a Ch (like Milosevic being pronounced as such where the c at the end sounds like ch?)
Yes, it is just an egg, no worries...Eh, wait a minute...how many counters are on that thing? One? That means that next turn you have a 10/10 trample? Oh, 13/13. Hmmm....
We tested this card when it came out as it looked hard to evaluate without testing. Does it play like a mediocre wall or as a levelling finisher?
First drafts it did ok, but not super. Mainly because we lacked faith and it was often put into the side board. But then we started noticing that when played it was never bad. A 0/3 wall is good for control against aggro decks, who are full with 2/x creature. The biggest surprise for us however was how fast this thing becomes a 13/13 trample! Control often has some excess mana at the end of the opponents turn if they didn't have to counter. If there is one counter on the Egg, then your opponent becomes worried about what a huge trample will do with his face.
13/13 is ridiculously big:o It cannot be killed by blockers most of the time. It can race with the best. A lot of aggressive decks hurt themselves left and right (fetch lands, shocklands, zombies, Bitterblossom,...) and suddenly 13 damage feels pretty lethal.
This card was first included because it looked funny and was hard to evaluate. As blue is so tight we always hesitated to keep it in or not, but we couldn't cut a card that won so many matches. Now we are at a point were this card is actually picked quite highly. People respect it, and if they don't getting crushed once by a angry Lizard teaches them the error of their ways.
I would suggest giving this card a chance. Put it in your cube and put it in your decks. Yes, it is just a 0/3, but it has so much potential for a mere two drop that it is worth a spot in your decks.
For those who are unsure and feel it will cost to much mana and time, remember it is a two drop. It's level up ability plays way better then sorcery speed level up. It is a difference of day and night. One random level up and you are very close to having a beastly 13/13. If they kill it, they have killed your two drop, so no big loss.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
And it stunk.
All of the scenarios I envisioned basically never happened, and I don't think it was transformed once in the 4-6 months it was in my Cube. About the average play was blocking a 2-power guy and eating part of a burn spell or just straight up eating a removal spell. That's not exactly the kind of power I'm looking for out of a blue card, which is certainly the best color and therefore tightest competition for spots in the Cube.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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I'm glad I'm not the only one. It was pretty darn bad when we tested it, and I really wanted it to be good because it's such a cool and fun card. But it was just a 2cc Wall of Wood most of the time, unless you pay the extra 10 mana to have it get Doom Bladed.
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If your intention is to put up a wall early and then play counters, and the mana you're investing in the creature wouldn't be used for other spells, it's fine. At worst it demands a removal spell, and at best you have a late-game creature.
EDH
BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores WGB
RUG Riku of Two Reflections GUR
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Looking forward to Shu Yun and Alesha.
It sure does perform...horribly. This card theorycrafted MUCH better than it actually played out for us; it literally NEVER transformed in all the time it was in my Cube, and was quite bad every time it was played (especially in the context of how the other blue Cube cards played).
Or, as we found out, you had to block a 3-power guy. Or they bolted/incinerated/etc it. Or you blocked a 2-power guy and then they Arc Trailed/Lightninged it + more. Or you got to 3 counters or so and then they pre-emptively killed it so they took the decision out of your hands.
Literally none of the ways it actually played out made it worth the mana/spot in the Cube.
Did he have the Doom Blade in hand? What was he doing with his mana if he was tapped out? Did he realize you could transform it and attack? Why didn't he block with the untapped Bitterblossom token or other things? Was he planning on killing you on the swingback as to not die to the extra point from the 13/13?
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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This is one of my pet cube cards, too, so I'll rise to its defense. My cube doesn't play many of blue's best cards due to budget constraints, so I have more room in the section than most. This card also has no place in small, highly constrained lists.
That said, this card has easily earned its keep in my cube. I think it's all about expectations. It's a wall, a speedbump against aggro decks or midrange small creatures, and you should never play it presuming it's going to transform. If I can play LTS, block once with it and draw a burn spell or a Doom Blade, then I count that as a victory.
It works very well with draw-go-ish decks, and reactive blue decks that want to hold mana up for instants--if you didn't need to play that counterspell, sink the otherwise-wasted mana into LTS counters. Midgame or lategame, the card can get close to transforming very easily at little extra cost, and then it's similar to the Greater Gargadon subgame--your opponent has to warp his game around the looming threat.
Psychologically, it can be frustrating to have your new 13/13 easily removed, but as long as you didn't use otherwise needed mana on it, you should just be glad they "wasted" a removal spell on your wall.
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This is exactly how he has been performing here. Last draft this card was a huge problem every time it was cast in a red- blue control deck (controllish counterburn). Did it get removed sometimes? Sure. But the deck playing it didn't care when its opponent throw damage at a mere two drop wall.
On the other hand it did what Trunkers described, winning games out of nowhere, even against aggressive decks.
You would need a serious army to block a 13/13 trample.
It is strange how different cards can play in different groups. This card has been highly efficient over here. Maybe some expect too much from it and are dissapointed when it is not a game winner right away? It only costs 1U and the mana you pump into it either doesn't matter or gets you a 13/13 right away. There is not that much instant removal that can deal with this (burn doesn't help most of the time)in our cube: Swords, Path, Go for the Throat, Beast Within, Into the Roil, Cyclonic Rift).
I am sure that not everybody will see the light and play this 'silly' card. But I hope some give it a shot in their lists and main deck it when drafted. If it plays like it has for us, it will prove its worth very fast.
Our list is a tight 450 list and it is pretty strong here. We don't keep cards because how cute or cool they are (if we did we would be too spikey during deck construction sadly). If we went down to 360 I am sure this card would have to fight hard to earn its place, but it would be a contented for those precious spots.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I really hate using the term "seeing the light" when advocating for a card.
I "saw the light" and cut this from my cube a long time ago.
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Ok, sorry for using the wrong expression:rolleyes:.
I thought the meaning was clear. I don't think this card is a 360 staple and I don't look down on those with different experiences. I just wanted to share our positive experience with those who are open to it. Maybe for some it will play like it has here (it did for Trunkers), and maybe for some it will play like for you and Antknee.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I understand the goal of advocating for a card. I know you probably didn't mean anything slighting by it. I just don't happen to like the particular phrasing you used. No big deal.
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http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690
Then 'suddenly' in their end of turn you charge it for two and in your turn you have a 13/13. Sure this is not impossible to predict or take into account, but an Egg with one counter looks harmless to most players. If you got flattened a few times, it actually start looking dangerous.
The window to deal with it is generally pretty small, unless you get rid of it when it has zero or just one counter and then the owner doesn't really card as it just a 1U wall.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Except that it wasn't wasted. If you drop this turn two, and they bolt it so they can continue to to hit you with their one drop, you continue to eat damage on curve, a win for the aggro deck. Compare to Perimeter Captain, who with 4 toughness makes most red removal lackluster, forcing a block and burn which loses the aggro deck a turn of damage and gives the defender two extra life, which might mean another whole turn on the clock. If you get LTS late, its a 12 mana finisher. Compare that to Inkwell Leviathan. Yes, its both cards at the same time, which I realize has value, but I don't see the modality overcoming its weaknesses.
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Blocking with a token = 1 less damage taken, which means one extra turn of not dying to Bitterblossom, which can mean an additional chunk of damage to hang on your opponent depending on the number of tokens you have. He didn't need to kill it; he needed to live long enough to kill you since he had an answer for the 13/13. He was likely thinking that blocking only was worth 1 damage, when in fact it was worth an entire additional turn to kill you with tokens (which, with Blossom [whoa], can be quite a bit with an additional turn).
Killing out of nowhere: It's like your opponent having an on-board trick (like an active Grim Lavamancer), and trying to Giant Growth your 2/2. People should be seeing this card coming a mile away. The only tension or 'trickiness' it has is when you have enough mana to activate it twice that trigger the transform and your opponent has a removal spell based on P/T. Otherwise, they just respond to the activation that flips it.
What players want: You obviously know this better than anyone, so if your group likes it then run it, obviously. But Augur of Bolas seems much more reasonable to me than what my experiences with the Subject have taught me. At least Augur can eat one toughness creatures.
Small Window: So if you want an early-turn card that does something, that means you are playing it on t2-3. That means, on turn 2, they can deal with it on t2, t3 (one counter), t4 (three counters total), and possibly t5 (last two counters). This also means that you can't do anything else with your mana...if you do, it exposes it longer!
-AA
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It's a bit unfair to compare a modal blue wall/finisher against the single best white answer to red aggro decks. (I think most cubes don't run cards like Perimeter Captain and Timely Reinforcements because it's hard enough to support aggro successfully in most cubes, in fact.) Blue doesn't have a lot of two-drop anti-aggro permanents--in most cubes, there are none.
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Anyway, to what I was thinking - is Ludevic pronounced with a hard C or a slavic C where the C is pronounced like a Ch (like Milosevic being pronounced as such where the c at the end sounds like ch?)
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I have nothing much to add about this card. It doesn't appeal to me and I think blue is too tight for it.
Cheers,
rant
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