I was looking for a deck much different than anything else I was running. After looking around a bit, someone pointed out that I should look at bobthefunny's Tibor and Lumia thread. After about 3 days to digest exactly how a deck with so few creatures worked, I started work putting together a list. I decided to go with an aggro/voltron plan using my spells to allow me to deal more damage
There is no substitute for Guttersnipe. 2 damage per spell is very capable of table-killing, and you can't beat the mana cost. I suggest buying one at the nearest LGS or ordering one with your next online order.
Since I see you're running Reiterate + Turnabout, I'd just like to point out that Nivix Guildmage also goes infinite with Turnabout, and his abilities are otherwise pretty relevant.
Since you're using River Kelpie, I assume you're banking on being able to play spells from your graveyard pretty frequently. To that end, I think you should consider Secrets of the Dead (even if you consider its counterpart, Burning Vengeance, to be too cute). I can see why you'd run the creature without the enchantment, as you want to play voltron and another body is nice. But if you expect to get mileage out of the Kelpie, I think Secrets is good enough to run.
I would play Flame Jab with a straight face. It has the potential to wreck some groundlings with T&L, and I see you're already playing Oona's Grace so I assume you value Retrace over the fact that the effect is admittedly mediocre. Just from my experience playing the deck, I have very rarely retraced a Grace (unless I had multiple from-graveyard benefits online) but I have always valued having Flame Jab in my GY. The greatest appeal of it, I feel, is the ability to turn on Spellweaver's Volute if you have lands and no sorcery in hand.
Especially if you happen to include a second retrace spell, I've found that Gush is a fantastic draw spell. It could possibly replace Opportunity if you find a CMC of 6 to be too high. Sometimes, though, you just gotta refill your hand, but that's what wheels are for.
I assume playing Walk the Aeons over Time Warp is an availability issue, which I totally sympathize with.
Some card choices I'm a little iffy on if you're looking for cuts: Screaming Fury - Comes down to how much you value haste, I guess, but paying an extra three for T&L is probably an advertisement that you're doing something, and outside of the ability to randomly tack on some general damage, it just doesn't seem all that useful to me. It's no Rafiq + Might of Oaks, is all I'm saying. Concentrate - Without any real interactions with the rest of the deck, it seems mediocre to me. If you need the hand-refilling power, though, that's fine. I've always been partial to Thoughtflare, myself, or Compulsive Research. Ignite Memories - This is a really inconsistent finisher, IMO. Sometimes your opponent has bombs, sometimes he has lands. And your curve seems to go up a bit more than the typical storm version, so I don't know how viable an alternate win-con this will be in the aggro version.
I would also be interested in hearing how Helm of Awakening performs for you. I found that with other cost-reducers, I hit the minimum color requirement to play spells even without it, and then it was only beneficial for my opponents. But then again, I play quite a few more CMC 1-2 spells for storm, so it could just be an archetype difference.
Same goes for any of the cuts I suggested, please don't just take my word. I'd be fascinated to hear if you tested them and they turned out to be amazing.
There is no substitute for Guttersnipe. 2 damage per spell is very capable of table-killing, and you can't beat the mana cost. I suggest buying one at the nearest LGS or ordering one with your next online order.
None of the 3 shops I frequent have one. I'll definitely get one 1st chance I have. Without the build around me cards, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind has been basically sub-par.
Since I see you're running Reiterate + Turnabout, I'd just like to point out that Nivix Guildmage also goes infinite with Turnabout, and his abilities are otherwise pretty relevant.
I'll have to grab the guildmage to try out. Question though: how in practice do you stack the triggers to make Reiterate + Turnabout go infinite? I get big mana, but at some point you'd need turnabout to resolve to start the loop over, at which point it would be in the yard. I'm not a rules/stack guy (yet), lol.
Since you're using River Kelpie, I assume you're banking on being able to play spells from your graveyard pretty frequently. To that end, I think you should consider Secrets of the Dead (even if you consider its counterpart, Burning Vengeance, to be too cute). I can see why you'd run the creature without the enchantment, as you want to play voltron and another body is nice. But if you expect to get mileage out of the Kelpie, I think Secrets is good enough to run.
In my initial 4 games I was doing about 1/3 of my work from the yard. I expected to work from there late game, but I did a fair bit with flashback. I may even want to work more flashback into the list. I picked up a secrets of the dead, but wasn't sure if I needed it. As you say, the body is nice to hold one of the equipment. The jury is still out as I learn how to play it, but it will probably get a test in the future if I (and I probably will) make the spells more gravecentric and see I need the draw.
I would play Flame Jab with a straight face. It has the potential to wreck some groundlings with T&L, and I see you're already playing Oona's Grace so I assume you value Retrace over the fact that the effect is admittedly mediocre. Just from my experience playing the deck, I have very rarely retraced a Grace (unless I had multiple from-graveyard benefits online) but I have always valued having Flame Jab in my GY. The greatest appeal of it, I feel, is the ability to turn on Spellweaver's Volute if you have lands and no sorcery in hand.
Flame jab was like the 101st card on my list when I originally put it together. After play testing, I think it will make an entrance for something, especially after I got Spellweaver's Volute online one game and saw just how bonkers it is in practice. [c]Retrace is exactly the kind of ability this deck wants.
Especially if you happen to include a second retrace spell, I've found that Gush is a fantastic draw spell. It could possibly replace Opportunity if you find a CMC of 6 to be too high. Sometimes, though, you just gotta refill your hand, but that's what wheels are for.
I didn't get a chance to draw into Opportunity yet, but it is definitely quite expensive. It does have the redeeming value of being instant speed though to let me fake counterspells and can get down cheap with reducers. Gush definitely has a synergy worth looking at, especially if I get crucible of worlds. With reducers, after so much mana, it becomes superfluous anyways (for the most part)
I assume playing Walk the Aeons over Time Warp is an availability issue, which I totally sympathize with.
Actually no, I picked up Walk the Aeons on the odd chance that I'd actually want to buy it back. and use it again. When you have a talrand army out, those extra turns make a difference. Is the 1 mana worth the loss of Buyback?
Some card choices I'm a little iffy on if you're looking for cuts: Screaming Fury - Comes down to how much you value haste, I guess, but paying an extra three for T&L is probably an advertisement that you're doing something, and outside of the ability to randomly tack on some general damage, it just doesn't seem all that useful to me. It's no Rafiq + Might of Oaks, is all I'm saying. Concentrate - Without any real interactions with the rest of the deck, it seems mediocre to me. If you need the hand-refilling power, though, that's fine. I've always been partial to Thoughtflare, myself, or Compulsive Research. Ignite Memories - This is a really inconsistent finisher, IMO. Sometimes your opponent has bombs, sometimes he has lands. And your curve seems to go up a bit more than the typical storm version, so I don't know how viable an alternate win-con this will be in the aggro version.
On paper, the haste from Screaming Fury can be a game winner. I haven't seen the card yet, but almost every time I cast T&L I wish they had haste. I'll need a few games with it to develop an opinion, but I'll see how it performs.
Concentrate is...just a draw spell. If you'd asked me last week, I'd have said it was better than Thoughtflare, but in this deck discarding is also beneficial. After doing like 18 damage in one shot to a guy with Runechanter's pike added to the 3 he got previously from T&L, you find spells in the yard are definitely useful, especially if you find flashback/retrace spells to dump. I'll definitely give Thoughtflare a whirl.
Ignite Memories is basically terrible in this version. I had it in hand two separate games and could never really use it. Without past in flames, turnabout, a ton of land, etc. I just don't see it getting a storm count above 2-4 most turns. The highest storm count I got was 6 when I was trying to get lethal commander damage off of a Leering Emblem and played everything I had. At that point, storm would have been win-more anyways. The only storm card I think I'm interested in is Haze of Rage. I can't wait to cast that about 10 times for R with a few creatures out. I'll honestly probably make a swap of Flame jab for Ignite Memories.
I would also be interested in hearing how Helm of Awakening performs for you. I found that with other cost-reducers, I hit the minimum color requirement to play spells even without it, and then it was only beneficial for my opponents. But then again, I play quite a few more CMC 1-2 spells for storm, so it could just be an archetype difference.
I have a higher CMC in general and haven't had issues hitting the cap yet. The other reducers, I play almost immediately when safe. Helm of Awakening needs to be played at the right time to maximize your value while minimizing your opponents. I won one game directly thanks to it. If I'm playing 2 or more spells that turn, it basically comes down free, and If I have a way to untap lands, it gets even better. I'm like 80% I like it so far if that helps.
Same goes for any of the cuts I suggested, please don't just take my word. I'd be fascinated to hear if you tested them and they turned out to be amazing.
A few quick questions...How few dual lands can I get away running? I was thinking of something like 5 with Command Tower, City of Brass, Steam Vents, Sulfur Falls, and Shivan reef. I want to keep enough snow-covereds to allowskred to remain viable, but I need to work on the early fixing just a bit as well.
You'll definitely need those duals with the cards you are running. You may want even more than 5 to ensure consistency. Skred should still be fine, if not there are other options.
I'll have to grab the guildmage to try out. Question though: how in practice do you stack the triggers to make Reiterate + Turnabout go infinite? I get big mana, but at some point you'd need turnabout to resolve to start the loop over, at which point it would be in the yard. I'm not a rules/stack guy (yet), lol.
I believe it goes:
1. Have at least 10 mana
2. Cast Turnabout
3. With Turnabout on the stack, cast Reiterate with buyback copying Turnabout.
4. Allow the copy of Turnabout to resolve, untapping all your lands.
5. Tap all of your lands to float mana.
6. Repeat steps 3-5 an arbitrarily large number of times for arbitrarily large amounts of mana.
Reiterate resolves first in step 4 doesn't it? Then before turnabout resolves you recast? I never bothered looking close, my group doesn't abide infinite.
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Gitrog Lands
Merieke Ri Berit Flicker
Ramos, Dragon Engine Storm
Reiterate resolves first in step 4 doesn't it? Then before turnabout resolves you recast? I never bothered looking close, my group doesn't abide infinite.
Between steps 3 and 4. He's allowing the copy to resolve on step 4, but technically there's a missing step where reiterate resolves, creates a copy, and returns to your hand, in between 3 and 4.
Anything on the stack resolves 1 at a time. You allow the Copy of turnabout to resolve, but you keep responding to the original, leaving it on the stack.
Another good part about Turnabout is that it isn't modal. The choice is made on resolution. So once you have "infinite" mana, you can tap down everyone else's everything, and then untap all your creatures and artifacts too, if you wanted.
Below is my 1st draft of the list. I couldn't find a Guttersnipe, so I decided to swap in Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
4 Tibor and Lumia
Creatures:
2 Goblin Electromancer
2 Walking Atlas
4 Anger
4 Talrand, Sky Summoner
5 Psychosis Crawler
5 River Kelpie
6 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Artifacts:
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Leering Emblem
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Sapphire Medallion
3 Chromatic Lantern
3 Diviner's Wand
4 Paradise Plume
5 Stone Calendar
Enchantments:
5 Arcane Melee
5 Spellweaver Volute
Instants:
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pongify
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Skred
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Impulse
2 Increasing Vengeance
2 Snap
2 Twincast
3 Capsize
3 Chaos Warp
3 Dream Fracture
3 Frantic Search
3 Long-Term Plans
3 Oona's Grace
3 Reiterate
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Overblaze
4 Plagiarize
4 Rewind
4 Turnabout
5 Savage Beating
6 Opportunity
1 Artful Dodge
1 Faithless Looting
1 Gamble
1 Haze of Rage
1 Reckless Charge
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Fabricate
3 Molten Psyche
3 Screaming Fury
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Windfall
4 Concentrate
4 Deep Analysis
4 Mystic Retrieval
4 Past in Flames
4 Seize the Day
5 Ignite Memories
5 Reforge the Soul
6 Time Spiral
6 Walk the Aeons
Planeswalker:
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
Lands
0 Cephalid Colosseum
0 Darksteel Citidel
0 Great Furnace
0 Inkmoth's Nexus
0 Mishra's Factory
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Riptide Library
0 Seat of the Synod
0 Snow-Covered Island - 13x
0 Snow-Covered Mountain - 13x
0 Temple of the False God
0 Terrain Generator
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Since I see you're running Reiterate + Turnabout, I'd just like to point out that Nivix Guildmage also goes infinite with Turnabout, and his abilities are otherwise pretty relevant.
Since you're using River Kelpie, I assume you're banking on being able to play spells from your graveyard pretty frequently. To that end, I think you should consider Secrets of the Dead (even if you consider its counterpart, Burning Vengeance, to be too cute). I can see why you'd run the creature without the enchantment, as you want to play voltron and another body is nice. But if you expect to get mileage out of the Kelpie, I think Secrets is good enough to run.
I would play Flame Jab with a straight face. It has the potential to wreck some groundlings with T&L, and I see you're already playing Oona's Grace so I assume you value Retrace over the fact that the effect is admittedly mediocre. Just from my experience playing the deck, I have very rarely retraced a Grace (unless I had multiple from-graveyard benefits online) but I have always valued having Flame Jab in my GY. The greatest appeal of it, I feel, is the ability to turn on Spellweaver's Volute if you have lands and no sorcery in hand.
Especially if you happen to include a second retrace spell, I've found that Gush is a fantastic draw spell. It could possibly replace Opportunity if you find a CMC of 6 to be too high. Sometimes, though, you just gotta refill your hand, but that's what wheels are for.
I assume playing Walk the Aeons over Time Warp is an availability issue, which I totally sympathize with.
Some card choices I'm a little iffy on if you're looking for cuts:
Screaming Fury - Comes down to how much you value haste, I guess, but paying an extra three for T&L is probably an advertisement that you're doing something, and outside of the ability to randomly tack on some general damage, it just doesn't seem all that useful to me. It's no Rafiq + Might of Oaks, is all I'm saying.
Concentrate - Without any real interactions with the rest of the deck, it seems mediocre to me. If you need the hand-refilling power, though, that's fine. I've always been partial to Thoughtflare, myself, or Compulsive Research.
Ignite Memories - This is a really inconsistent finisher, IMO. Sometimes your opponent has bombs, sometimes he has lands. And your curve seems to go up a bit more than the typical storm version, so I don't know how viable an alternate win-con this will be in the aggro version.
I would also be interested in hearing how Helm of Awakening performs for you. I found that with other cost-reducers, I hit the minimum color requirement to play spells even without it, and then it was only beneficial for my opponents. But then again, I play quite a few more CMC 1-2 spells for storm, so it could just be an archetype difference.
Same goes for any of the cuts I suggested, please don't just take my word. I'd be fascinated to hear if you tested them and they turned out to be amazing.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
None of the 3 shops I frequent have one. I'll definitely get one 1st chance I have. Without the build around me cards, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind has been basically sub-par.
Thanks for pointing that out
I'll have to grab the guildmage to try out. Question though: how in practice do you stack the triggers to make Reiterate + Turnabout go infinite? I get big mana, but at some point you'd need turnabout to resolve to start the loop over, at which point it would be in the yard. I'm not a rules/stack guy (yet), lol.
In my initial 4 games I was doing about 1/3 of my work from the yard. I expected to work from there late game, but I did a fair bit with flashback. I may even want to work more flashback into the list. I picked up a secrets of the dead, but wasn't sure if I needed it. As you say, the body is nice to hold one of the equipment. The jury is still out as I learn how to play it, but it will probably get a test in the future if I (and I probably will) make the spells more gravecentric and see I need the draw.
Flame jab was like the 101st card on my list when I originally put it together. After play testing, I think it will make an entrance for something, especially after I got Spellweaver's Volute online one game and saw just how bonkers it is in practice. [c]Retrace is exactly the kind of ability this deck wants.
I didn't get a chance to draw into Opportunity yet, but it is definitely quite expensive. It does have the redeeming value of being instant speed though to let me fake counterspells and can get down cheap with reducers. Gush definitely has a synergy worth looking at, especially if I get crucible of worlds. With reducers, after so much mana, it becomes superfluous anyways (for the most part)
Actually no, I picked up Walk the Aeons on the odd chance that I'd actually want to buy it back. and use it again. When you have a talrand army out, those extra turns make a difference. Is the 1 mana worth the loss of Buyback?
On paper, the haste from Screaming Fury can be a game winner. I haven't seen the card yet, but almost every time I cast T&L I wish they had haste. I'll need a few games with it to develop an opinion, but I'll see how it performs.
Concentrate is...just a draw spell. If you'd asked me last week, I'd have said it was better than Thoughtflare, but in this deck discarding is also beneficial. After doing like 18 damage in one shot to a guy with Runechanter's pike added to the 3 he got previously from T&L, you find spells in the yard are definitely useful, especially if you find flashback/retrace spells to dump. I'll definitely give Thoughtflare a whirl.
Ignite Memories is basically terrible in this version. I had it in hand two separate games and could never really use it. Without past in flames, turnabout, a ton of land, etc. I just don't see it getting a storm count above 2-4 most turns. The highest storm count I got was 6 when I was trying to get lethal commander damage off of a Leering Emblem and played everything I had. At that point, storm would have been win-more anyways. The only storm card I think I'm interested in is Haze of Rage. I can't wait to cast that about 10 times for R with a few creatures out. I'll honestly probably make a swap of Flame jab for Ignite Memories.
I have a higher CMC in general and haven't had issues hitting the cap yet. The other reducers, I play almost immediately when safe. Helm of Awakening needs to be played at the right time to maximize your value while minimizing your opponents. I won one game directly thanks to it. If I'm playing 2 or more spells that turn, it basically comes down free, and If I have a way to untap lands, it gets even better. I'm like 80% I like it so far if that helps.
A few quick questions...How few dual lands can I get away running? I was thinking of something like 5 with Command Tower, City of Brass, Steam Vents, Sulfur Falls, and Shivan reef. I want to keep enough snow-covereds to allowskred to remain viable, but I need to work on the early fixing just a bit as well.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
RWU Nom Nom Numot: The Hungry Devastator
GUB Damia's BUG-ifact Parade: all artifacts, all the time
GWG Trostani, Selesnya's Voice of Madness
GUG Edric, weenie master of DOOM
BRB Olivia Voldaren, Your creatures = MINE!
1. Have at least 10 mana
2. Cast Turnabout
3. With Turnabout on the stack, cast Reiterate with buyback copying Turnabout.
4. Allow the copy of Turnabout to resolve, untapping all your lands.
5. Tap all of your lands to float mana.
6. Repeat steps 3-5 an arbitrarily large number of times for arbitrarily large amounts of mana.
Gitrog Lands
Merieke Ri Berit Flicker
Ramos, Dragon Engine Storm
Between steps 3 and 4. He's allowing the copy to resolve on step 4, but technically there's a missing step where reiterate resolves, creates a copy, and returns to your hand, in between 3 and 4.
Anything on the stack resolves 1 at a time. You allow the Copy of turnabout to resolve, but you keep responding to the original, leaving it on the stack.
Another good part about Turnabout is that it isn't modal. The choice is made on resolution. So once you have "infinite" mana, you can tap down everyone else's everything, and then untap all your creatures and artifacts too, if you wanted.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek