Alright, time to decide on our power and toughness.
We're also going to take a vote on whether or not we want to add additional abilities. Since we got a number of submissions for those, we'll have a second round of voting if it turns out to be something people want.
Here's our card so far, for reference:
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Why? Because the added ability (or the lack of it) will determine the direction of power/toughness.
In the same way, the decision on power and toughness can determine the direction of additional abilities.
The reason I decided to go with P/T first is that it felt more important to the overall feel of the card. As you said, there are so many different abilities that could go on him, deciding on P/T first will help narrow down the options.
In the end though I don't think it really mattered which one we did first.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
In the same way, the decision on power and toughness can determine the direction of additional abilities.
The reason I decided to go with P/T first is that it felt more important to the overall feel of the card. As you said, there are so many different abilities that could go on him, deciding on P/T first will help narrow down the options.
In the end though I don't think it really mattered which one we did first.
I would rather put ability first. When designing a card, we need to consider the "core" parts first and then fine-tune the card with the "adjustable" parts. Looking at this cards, his core part is his ability, since that's the main reason why someone would play the card.
It'd be extremely lame for a card with this ability to be small and has higher T than P since nobody would play it.
Talk for yourself. I and I'd assume quite many other control-players would play it.
Besides, WotC really doesn't print much aggressive creatures with controllish abilities. Please, name one from the last few years: A creature with aggressive P/T and still very controllish abilities.
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Talk for yourself. I and I'd assume quite many other control-players would play it.
Besides, WotC really doesn't print much aggressive creatures with controllish abilities. Please, name one from the last few years: A creature with aggressive P/T and still very controllish abilities.
Describe how this is a controllish ability.
Their aggro non-haste attackers aren't affected. Their EoT burn spells to your face is hardly affected. Only the haste attackers are affected.
On the other hand, your Supreme Verdict is now delayed till your next turn and your blockers don't get to block their next attack. Too bad you won't live to see that turn when your cards finally work. Saving up mana for your uber-powerful x-spells? Sorry, you can only get zero for x.
Unless the additional ability we give it is ":2mana:: Switch ~'s power and toughness until end of turn."
I'm not sure why I think that fits well on the card, its just the first thing I thought of when I saw it.
People see the card and think "It delays things!" and then think of it as being controllish. They need to get a closer look of what the card actually does.
Also, the ability you mentioned sucks big time. If that's what need to be done to make him work then why waste a line and some mana when you can just give him aggressive P/T in the first place.
People see the card and think "It delays things!" and then think of it as being controllish. They need to get a closer look of what the card actually does.
Also, the ability you mentioned sucks big time. If that's what need to be done to make him work then why waste a line and some mana when you can just give him aggressive P/T in the first place.
Bro, chill. Everyone has ideas and everyone has opinions, not all of them need to align with yours. If you have ideas, why don't you share them instead of shooting down other peoples'?
Their aggro non-haste attackers aren't affected. Their EoT burn spells to your face is hardly affected. Only the haste attackers are affected.
On the other hand, your Supreme Verdict is now delayed till your next turn and your blockers don't get to block their next attack. Too bad you won't live to see that turn when your cards finally work. Saving up mana for your uber-powerful x-spells? Sorry, you can only get zero for x.
Describe how this is a controllish ability.
If it's not controlling, what is it? Delaying players is one of the most controlling things you can do, especially when you can see what everyone's casting a mile away. It might nullify counterspells, but controll isn't just countering. The point of control is to slow the other player down enough to get the upper hand and this thing does just that. And besides, this isn't even the final version. If we do end up adding the "add or remove time counters" ability, we may as well just put this thing in every control deck ever. It's pretty hard not to see how this is controlling.
Bro, chill. Everyone has ideas and everyone has opinions, not all of them need to align with yours. If you have ideas, why don't you share them instead of shooting down other peoples'?
I am sharing my ideas. And of course I am aware that not all opinions have to be in line with mine. The only reason it seems like I'm shooting everyone down is because they don't respond. They just said something they thought was right and that's it. Had they responded, we would have had a discussion.
If it's not controlling, what is it? Delaying players is one of the most controlling things you can do, especially when you can see what everyone's casting a mile away. It might nullify counterspells, but controll isn't just countering. The point of control is to slow the other player down enough to get the upper hand and this thing does just that.
You are right that this slows everyone down. But it slows down the fast decks less than it slows you down.
And besides, this isn't even the final version. If we do end up adding the "add or remove time counters" ability, we may as well just put this thing in every control deck ever. It's pretty hard not to see how this is controlling.
Another reason to support my motion to sort out the ability first and the toughness later.
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And just so you know, I'm doing this with the goal of making the best card. That means I really hope that someone can prove me wrong since that would mean that we're getting to the next level.
I am sharing my ideas. And of course I am aware that not all opinions have to be in line with mine. The only reason it seems like I'm shooting everyone down is because they don't respond. They just said something they thought was right and that's it. Had they responded, we would have had a discussion.
Perhaps try to sound a little less hostile about it then? I know you don't try to sound that way, but nobody likes the guy who says stuff like "That idea sucks!" instead of respectfully offering a different idea.
Matters of possible underlying hostility aside, I agree with ShinyMan completely. You guys seem to overlook how this card PLAYS in a deck. You'r too focused on how it FEELS as a design. It's nice when these things align on a card, but on this one, they don't. It's just bad design to overlook the play value, in my opinion.
-This card stops counter-spells completely. (anti-control hoser)
-This card does not affect offensive creatures who don't have haste.
-This card delays defensive creatures from blocking a whole turn.
-This card makes what's on the board matter more than what's in the hand.
How is this control? Other than it being an artifact creature with a flavor of delaying time, there is no real reason to make it a "fragile wizardy baubley thingy" (freeform quote from past discussions). Why would any control player play this thing?
Take two lists, one control and one aggro, from standard or even block constructed and put this guy instead of some 2-3CMC guys. Where do you think it will be a better fit? Try to imagine a game. You must do this with cards you are designing. We may be wrong, there maybe other potential in this card that we don't see, but you can't go on feel. You need to test it, even if only theoretically at first. This card is aggro in play style. It's just there, in that one ability.
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:sympu::nod::sym2g::p:symgu:;):symu::cthulhu::symg::cool2::symug::grin3::sym2u::rolleyes::sympg: The Simic: we have glow-in-the-dark milk and self replicating cookies.
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Sometimes the feel of a card is more important than how it plays. Not every card must be optimized for maximum spike factor.
Not saying that necessarily makes the defensive stats better, but it's something to think about.
A card that reads well but plays badly gets you excited but eventually gives you a huge letdown and leaves a bitter taste in your mouth. (See Sarkhan Vol)
A card that reads badly but play well may seems bad at first glance but will give you a wow factor and ultimately makes you feel much better in a long run. (See extort cards)
No need to make this card strong. Just playable. This guy is not control. No need for defensive stats.
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:sympu::nod::sym2g::p:symgu:;):symu::cthulhu::symg::cool2::symug::grin3::sym2u::rolleyes::sympg: The Simic: we have glow-in-the-dark milk and self replicating cookies.
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
We're also going to take a vote on whether or not we want to add additional abilities. Since we got a number of submissions for those, we'll have a second round of voting if it turns out to be something people want.
Here's our card so far, for reference:
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Why? Because the added ability (or the lack of it) will determine the direction of power/toughness.
If he doesn't get a new ability, then he could be a disruptive bear/Gray Ogre/Hill Giant for an aggro deck.
If he gets a mana-intensive time counter-manipulating ability, then he's touching on EDH and therefore would be better off with high P/T.
If he gets something else, well, there are so many things that can happen. So we should vote on ability first.
In the same way, the decision on power and toughness can determine the direction of additional abilities.
The reason I decided to go with P/T first is that it felt more important to the overall feel of the card. As you said, there are so many different abilities that could go on him, deciding on P/T first will help narrow down the options.
In the end though I don't think it really mattered which one we did first.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
I can't wrap my head around having a creature with an ability like this have more T than P, really. This poll is killing me.
It'd be extremely lame for a card with this ability to be small and has higher T than P since nobody would play it.
Talk for yourself. I and I'd assume quite many other control-players would play it.
Besides, WotC really doesn't print much aggressive creatures with controllish abilities. Please, name one from the last few years: A creature with aggressive P/T and still very controllish abilities.
Their aggro non-haste attackers aren't affected. Their EoT burn spells to your face is hardly affected. Only the haste attackers are affected.
On the other hand, your Supreme Verdict is now delayed till your next turn and your blockers don't get to block their next attack. Too bad you won't live to see that turn when your cards finally work. Saving up mana for your uber-powerful x-spells? Sorry, you can only get zero for x.
Describe how this is a controllish ability.
Unless the additional ability we give it is ":2mana:: Switch ~'s power and toughness until end of turn."
I'm not sure why I think that fits well on the card, its just the first thing I thought of when I saw it.
Also, the ability you mentioned sucks big time. If that's what need to be done to make him work then why waste a line and some mana when you can just give him aggressive P/T in the first place.
Bro, chill. Everyone has ideas and everyone has opinions, not all of them need to align with yours. If you have ideas, why don't you share them instead of shooting down other peoples'?
If it's not controlling, what is it? Delaying players is one of the most controlling things you can do, especially when you can see what everyone's casting a mile away. It might nullify counterspells, but controll isn't just countering. The point of control is to slow the other player down enough to get the upper hand and this thing does just that. And besides, this isn't even the final version. If we do end up adding the "add or remove time counters" ability, we may as well just put this thing in every control deck ever. It's pretty hard not to see how this is controlling.
You are right that this slows everyone down. But it slows down the fast decks less than it slows you down.
Another reason to support my motion to sort out the ability first and the toughness later.
-------------------------------------------
And just so you know, I'm doing this with the goal of making the best card. That means I really hope that someone can prove me wrong since that would mean that we're getting to the next level.
Perhaps try to sound a little less hostile about it then? I know you don't try to sound that way, but nobody likes the guy who says stuff like "That idea sucks!" instead of respectfully offering a different idea.
-This card stops counter-spells completely. (anti-control hoser)
-This card does not affect offensive creatures who don't have haste.
-This card delays defensive creatures from blocking a whole turn.
-This card makes what's on the board matter more than what's in the hand.
How is this control? Other than it being an artifact creature with a flavor of delaying time, there is no real reason to make it a "fragile wizardy baubley thingy" (freeform quote from past discussions). Why would any control player play this thing?
Take two lists, one control and one aggro, from standard or even block constructed and put this guy instead of some 2-3CMC guys. Where do you think it will be a better fit? Try to imagine a game. You must do this with cards you are designing. We may be wrong, there maybe other potential in this card that we don't see, but you can't go on feel. You need to test it, even if only theoretically at first. This card is aggro in play style. It's just there, in that one ability.
The Simic: we have glow-in-the-dark milk and self replicating cookies.
Not saying that necessarily makes the defensive stats better, but it's something to think about.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
A card that reads badly but play well may seems bad at first glance but will give you a wow factor and ultimately makes you feel much better in a long run. (See extort cards)
The Simic: we have glow-in-the-dark milk and self replicating cookies.
I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here since no one else seems to be arguing this side.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing