MTG Salvation

Hello friends!

My playgroup has expressed interest in building/playing a cube, and since I'm the biggest Pack Rat of the group, I'll probably be the one to actually put it together. I've read a few articles on the subject, such as this one, but I'm looking for some help to make sure I get off to a good start in terms of card selection.A few notes about my cube:
- Not concerned about modern vs. traditional. My group has played long enough to remember the good ol' days.
- The size of the cube will probably stay at 450 for now. I anticipate drafting with anywhere from 6-10 people at one time.
- I don't think it will be powered, at least not initially. Most of my group doesn't have experience or desire to get into Vintage-style formats.
- By "powered", I mean I won't be adding anything over $100, unless I already own it. That means no Moat, no Mana Drain, etc.
- I'm not above proxying the really expensive stuff. I currently have proxies of P3K bombs like Ravages of War and Burning of Xinye.
- Not interested in Unglued or Unhinged. Portal seems fine. Planechase, Commander, and other box sets also seem fine.
- 55 cards per color, 55 artifacts, 6 cards per guild, 60 lands.

Thanks in advance for all your help!

Reserved for future considerations

Quote from OCPunisher

Couple of more specific questions I have:
- Should I run planeswalkers in this cube?
I think so. They are unique, powerful, and fun.
- Should I run Swords of X and Y in this cube?
I think so. They are unique, powerful, and fun
- How many lands are appropriate for a 450-card cube?
Probably about 50. I'd run four for each guild and then some utility lands.
- Do any of the land cycles need to be removed?
Not exactly sure what you are asking. The only cycles I'd include for sure are the ABU duals, the shocks, and the fetches. After that I'd run one land for each guild that fits that guild, for example, Creeping Tar Pit and Horizon Canopy.
- Any other land cycles (Shards tri-lands, Ice Age pain-lands, etc) that need to be included?
Not in my opinion. Those lands are not good enough for a 450 cube and just promote four- and five-color control decks.

Thanks in advance for all your help!

Cheers,
rant

Doh! Forgot that I put in all ten of the Innistrad utility lands. Thanks for catching that.

I haven't actually played with this cube yet (hoping to do so in the next couple of weeks). Right now, I'm just trying to get something started.

Quote from eidolon232

Why do you classify things in cycles in the first place? Just give each color/guild whatever cards fit best.

Hmm, I wasn't really thinking that way, but that's probably a better approach than what I took. I just started with the average 450 card cube, added a few things I knew I wanted, and removed a few things I knew I either didn't want (Smokestack) or couldn't afford right now (Goyf).

Thanks for the extra information!

I don't like the inclusion of the Innistrad utility lands. I don't think they are good enough, with the exception of Slayer's Stronghold (and big maybes for Wolf Run and Lighthouse).

I'm also of the opinion that lands requiring colored mana for activations should be run in those sections. So, I'd classify Academy Ruins and Shelldock Isle as blue cards. Also, this list needs Treetop Village and Faerie Conclave.

Lastly, I think each guild should get fixing lands tailored to its needs. Beyond the holy trinity of dual/shock/fetch, the land a guild gets should be the best land for that guild regardless of cycles. Dimir would Creeping Tar Pit; Selesnya Horizon Canopy; Golgari could have Llanowar Wastes or Woodland Cemetary depending on how it works in your cube; Izzet would have Izzet Boilerworks.

Given that you don't have the original duals, the Innistrad/Core Set checklands are fine for now. I'd replace the Shadowmoor/Eventide hybrid lands with the lands that are best for each guild. I'm not a fan of the hybrid lands and I don't run them for any of the guilds.

Flames of the Firebrand is a sorcery, not an instant.

Cheers,
rant

Not sure if it's legal to bump my own thread or not (if not, I apologize), but I've made a lot of updates to my list recently and I was wondering if I could get some more feedback.

NOTE: I still have not actually gotten to test this cube yet, so I'm still going with the same configuration of 50 mono-colored spells, 50 artifacts, and 10 gold/hybrids from each guild. I know all the experts say to keep them to a minimum, and eventually I'll cut some of them, but right now I'm going to keep them where they're at.

I think I would argue that my original list didn't really have any thought behind it at all...it was basically just a copy of the "average" 450-card cube. This new list is at least a little more structured in terms of the numbers of cards per color, so I don't think it's fair to compare the two.

I guess I'm missing something fundamental here in terms of what's good or bad to run, because I don't see a problem with a lot of these cards. Could you elaborate a bit more on what you disagree with, or provide a few examples?

It looks like you are still comparing my former list with the current one. The former list didn't really have any thought behind it except "the average cube has this, so I should too". After I started applying some numbers to it, I realized that it was just a pile of cards with no cohesiveness at all, so I started over.

My current list started out with me brainstorming a bunch of what I considered "good" archetypes for as many guilds as possible. For example, the Azorius guild had a bunch of small flyers, it had a bunch of mid-range ETB cards, and it had the classic UW control cards. The Golgari guild had some ramp, removal, and graveyard recursion. The Boros guild had a bunch of small creatures, and a bunch of cheap removal/combat tricks. After I went through each guild, I just started filling in holes until I got to a nice round number of 50 cards each.

So again, I don't think comparing my old list to my new one really does anything because the old one was just a pile of cards that didn't have any meaning behind them, and no matter what else happens I'm not going back to that. If certain cards aren't good for reasons other than "the old list was better", that would be great, but what was in the old list should not influence what goes in the current list.

I agree with all of eidolon's suggestions, and the previous list looks like the better composition. I know you like the new list more, but it's missing a lot of the great cards that make cube archetypes function well.

This is getting a little obnoxious. All of these responses seem to be boiling down to "here's a giant list of cards that are wrong" and "here's a giant list of cards that are right". I'm not going back to just having a stock list of average cards that everyone and their brother already has in their cube, so please don't just say that. Why is card X wrong? Why is card Y right?

For example, I cut out all of the Soltari guys because they didn't really interact with the opponent all that much (they can't block or be blocked, they just attack every turn). I added Knight of the White Orchid because it was another white two drop that I owned, and it could potentially dig up dual lands. I also added Syndic of Tithes because I'm a fan of the extort mechanic and I've seen how good it can be in recent Gatecrash drafts. I added Frontline Medic for Soltari Champion because they were both white three-drop creatures, and they both provided benefits to attacking with a larger number of creatures.

There's a reason that cards show up in cube lists. It's usually because they're among the most efficient options for their respective card type/role. Soltari's are non-interactive, but they're good. They're unblockable, which is exactly what aggressive decks want, and they have protections that make them removal resistent. KotWO is an okay card, but it's not the same type of card. So when one of white's primary roles in the cube is to be the backbone for aggro shells, cube managers want to maximize the number of beaters that can push damage through. That is why they're used in lots of cubes. That is why they're better.

The same is true for all the other changes eidolon listed, for one reason or another. They're simply more effective cards.

This is so much better, thank you for these explanations. The point about Mirror Entity is excellent. I'll put it back in for the Medic today. I can also see the point about the Knight's casting cost being a little too prohibitive.

I see your point about the Soltari guys being good, but I'm still not a fan of the interaction or lack thereof, so I think I will keep them on the sidelines for now.

How are the soltaris less interactive than creatures with shroud? You can target the soltaris so they really aren't that uninteractive. I think that players who don't run them (and their dauthi cousins) are actively hampering aggro decks. Sure, sometimes a soltari with a lightsaber runs away with the game but most of the good cube cards can win the game if left alone.

Just my $0.02.

Cheers,
rant

Quote from OCPunisher »

This is so much better, thank you for these explanations.

The point is that every single card that we suggest adding in over a card that isn't used as much has the exact same level of reasoning behind it (probably more). But we don't have time to write up a paragraph for every single card that shouldn't get cut. So the "giant list of cards that are right" all have justifications. Important ones. To you, it may look like homogenization, but to us, it looks like improvement.

Quote from wtwlf123

The point is that every single card that we suggest adding in over a card that isn't used as much has the exact same level of reasoning behind it (probably more). But we don't have time to write up a paragraph for every single card that shouldn't get cut. So the "giant list of cards that are right" all have justifications. Important ones. To you, it may look like homogenization, but to us, it looks like improvement.

I guess my point was that it's far more helpful to me to have a shorter list with more explanations than a longer list with no explanations. I wouldn't have made a giant overhaul of my cube even if every single change had a paragraph next to it, so going forward I'd just prefer to make a few smaller changes at a time.

Quote from rantipole

How are the soltaris less interactive than creatures with shroud? You can target the soltaris so they really aren't that uninteractive. I think that players who don't run them (and their dauthi cousins) are actively hampering aggro decks. Sure, sometimes a soltari with a lightsaber runs away with the game but most of the good cube cards can win the game if left alone.

Just my $0.02.

Cheers,
rant

That's a fair point, and I'll try to keep the hexproof guys to a minimum as I don't care much for that ability either.

I see your point about the Soltari guys being good, but I'm still not a fan of the interaction or lack thereof, so I think I will keep them on the sidelines for now.

After going through eidolon's list another time, I realized that a lot of the cards mentioned there were ones I simply didn't have...in fact, that was the case with more than half of these changes. I'm putting a large order together online for a bunch of smaller things to fill out the cube, so that should address a lot of the issues. Furthermore, I've listed the cards I would run if I had them in the OP, along with a list of functional replacements. I'll try to touch on some of the changes that didn't involve things I don't have yet.
- Knight of the White Orchid > Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: Not sure why I went this direction, but I'll put Thalia back in as she's probably a better card.
- Fiend Hunter: I already have Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring, and and this seemed like another quality removal spell. Plus, I was hurting for white three-drops, a lot of which I don't currently own.
- Ranger of Eos: I have a lot of quality one-drop creatures in all five colors, so this seems like a great way for the creature decks to dig up more gas.
- Balance > Blind Obedience: I cut Balance because some friends suggested that it might be a little too powerful for the rest of the cube, and that we might want to wait and see how the rest of it goes first. I do have a copy, and I'll probably put Balance in at some point, just not right away.
- Elspeth Tirel: I think the lesser Elspeth was just a casualty of the numbers restriction I put in to start out. I'm sure after a few rounds of testing, the number restrictions will change. Same goes for Catastrophe.
- Ancestral Vision > Vapor Snag: This wasn't exactly a 1-for-1 switch. I dropped Ancestral because I thought there was too much card draw in blue, and I added Vapor Snag because it seemed like a good tempo card for the Ux tempo decks, especially with Delver.
- Delver of Secrets: I added this card because it looked like a good tempo card and I wanted to see if it was a viable archetype in Limited. I haven't tested it yet, but it seemed like there were a lot of cheap blue spells to flip it. If it doesn't turn out to be as good as it is in theory, I'll cut it.
- Upheaval: I didn't exactly "cut" this card, but when I was brainstorming ideas, it just never popped into my head as something I should absolutely have. I suppose it is a rather unique effect.
- Consecrated Sphinx: I cut this because it was an expensive blue spell and I thought I had too much draw power.
- Hands of Binding: Seemed like a nice cheap tempo spell that I wanted to try out.
- Sewer Nemesis: Like Upheaval, when I was brainstorming ideas, this just never came up. I could see it going in for Cadaver Imp.
- Hymn to Tourach: This reminds me of the argument against Knight of the White Orchid...it's more mana-intensive than all the one-drop discard spells that are already there. How many discard spells does black actually need? Would Ravenous Rats be an acceptable substitute, since it has a body and it's easier to cast?
- Reckless Charge: I've never played with this card, but it just seems out of place amongst all the other burn spells.
- Searing Blaze > Incinerate: Another case where the casting cost was less prohibitive, and it's not like the mono-red players are lacking for quality gas.
- Goblin Welder: I wanted to try him out for several reasons. He's a one-drop for Ranger of Eos, and he is great with both the Tinker decks and the equipment decks.
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary > Verdant Emissary: Not sure why I didn't think of Roffles, but I'll put him back in.
- Wolfir Silverheart: Green does need some more beef. I'll put it in for Brutalizer Exarch.
- Genesis Wave: What's the problem with this card? Seems like the kind of thing that a green deck would want to ramp into.
- Lotus Cobra: I cut this because I don't yet have fetches in here, although I probably will in the future.
- Genesis, Indrik Stomphowler: I only had 50 spots available, and something had to go.

I'll get more into the gold/artifacts later.

One thing I'm beginning to notice is that I will probably need to cut back on the number of gold cards that I have, as a lot of them just aren't very good. I'll take another look at those today as well.

Thoughts and comments in bold.

Quote from OCPunisher

That's a fair point, and I'll try to keep the hexproof guys to a minimum as I don't care much for that ability either.

I see your point about the Soltari guys being good, but I'm still not a fan of the interaction or lack thereof, so I think I will keep them on the sidelines for now.
My real point is that they aren't really less interactive than a ton of other stuff that people run in cubes. They are really, really good for white aggro and fill a role that no other cards in that color really fill.

...
- Knight of the White Orchid > Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: Not sure why I went this direction, but I'll put Thalia back in as she's probably a better card.
Good change. Thalia is pretty great.
- Fiend Hunter: I already have Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring, and and this seemed like another quality removal spell. Plus, I was hurting for white three-drops, a lot of which I don't currently own.
Hunter isn't bad; some groups like it a lot. I think it's too fragile and the number of ETB guys impacts its usefulness.
- Ranger of Eos: I have a lot of quality one-drop creatures in all five colors, so this seems like a great way for the creature decks to dig up more gas.
Good card. I probably wouldn't run it at 450 but it's a perfectly reasonable choice. It's on my bench for my 500 card powered cube.
- Balance > Blind Obedience: I cut Balance because some friends suggested that it might be a little too powerful for the rest of the cube, and that we might want to wait and see how the rest of it goes first. I do have a copy, and I'll probably put Balance in at some point, just not right away.
I subscribe to the "No Card Is Too Powerful" school of cubing. I love Balance because it's too powerful. I think it is the best white card with only Armageddon giving it any competition.
- Elspeth Tirel: I think the lesser Elspeth was just a casualty of the numbers restriction I put in to start out. I'm sure after a few rounds of testing, the number restrictions will change. Same goes for Catastrophe.
I think Catastrophe is one of the 10 best white cards and the best Wrath variant. It seals your win or brings you back from being behind. It does exactly what a midrange or control deck wants. Elspeth 2.0 is pretty great but I'm not sure I'd run her at 450.
- Ancestral Vision > Vapor Snag: This wasn't exactly a 1-for-1 switch. I dropped Ancestral because I thought there was too much card draw in blue, and I added Vapor Snag because it seemed like a good tempo card for the Ux tempo decks, especially with Delver.
Not a fan of either of these, but I'd definitely run Visions if I went unpowered. It fills a nice gap. Snag looks pretty weak by cube standards.
- Delver of Secrets: I added this card because it looked like a good tempo card and I wanted to see if it was a viable archetype in Limited. I haven't tested it yet, but it seemed like there were a lot of cheap blue spells to flip it. If it doesn't turn out to be as good as it is in theory, I'll cut it.
I'm pretty sure you'll end up cutting this. It's wildly inconsistent.
- Upheaval: I didn't exactly "cut" this card, but when I was brainstorming ideas, it just never popped into my head as something I should absolutely have. I suppose it is a rather unique effect.
In an unpowered cube, I'd probably rank this as the best blue card (depending on whether you consider Mana Drain unpowered). At worst it resets the game. At best, it resets the game with you 2-3 turns ahead of your opponent. Casting this with Greater Gargadon suspended or enough mana to drop Psychatog or Wild Mongrel is pretty much good game.
- Consecrated Sphinx: I cut this because it was an expensive blue spell and I thought I had too much draw power.
It's really good, but in the end is interchangable with a number of other blue fatties.
- Hands of Binding: Seemed like a nice cheap tempo spell that I wanted to try out.
No experience with this card. Doesn't look that great to me, but it might be surprising.
- Sewer Nemesis: Like Upheaval, when I was brainstorming ideas, this just never came up. I could see it going in for Cadaver Imp.
Sewer Nemesis is a card I'm strongly considering bringing back into my cube. It is usually bigger than a 4-drop has a right to be and keeps getting bigger. I like it much, much more than the Imp.
- Hymn to Tourach: This reminds me of the argument against Knight of the White Orchid...it's more mana-intensive than all the one-drop discard spells that are already there. How many discard spells does black actually need? Would Ravenous Rats be an acceptable substitute, since it has a body and it's easier to cast?
Black--in particular, black aggro--thrives off of discard and this is the second best discard spell. Sometimes the casting cost is an issue but the power level more than makes up for it. It's way better than the Rats.
- Reckless Charge: I've never played with this card, but it just seems out of place amongst all the other burn spells.
A number of cubists like it. I've never tried it out.
- Searing Blaze > Incinerate: Another case where the casting cost was less prohibitive, and it's not like the mono-red players are lacking for quality gas.
I think Incinerate is the better card by far.
- Goblin Welder: I wanted to try him out for several reasons. He's a one-drop for Ranger of Eos, and he is great with both the Tinker decks and the equipment decks.
He probably plays better in a powered list. I found him hit or miss and so he's sitting on the bench in my cube.
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary > Verdant Emissary: Not sure why I didn't think of Roffles, but I'll put him back in.
Good move. Rofellos is pretty awesome.
- Wolfir Silverheart: Green does need some more beef. I'll put it in for Brutalizer Exarch.
Not in love this with either card. I prefer Thornling to the Silverheart.
- Genesis Wave: What's the problem with this card? Seems like the kind of thing that a green deck would want to ramp into.
Too inconsistent. Most decks have too many non-permanents. It's good but I'd only run it in a huge cube.
- Lotus Cobra: I cut this because I don't yet have fetches in here, although I probably will in the future.
It's fine without fetches.
- Genesis, Indrik Stomphowler: I only had 50 spots available, and something had to go.
I like both of these--especially Genesis--more than the Silverheart. Genesis wins grindy games and attrition matches and combos with Braids, Survival, Mongrel, Lotleth Troll, and board wipes. I wouldn't cube without it.
...

One thing I'm beginning to notice is that I will probably need to cut back on the number of gold cards that I have, as a lot of them just aren't very good. I'll take another look at those today as well.
In a 450 cube, I would only run 4-5 cards per guild.

Cheers,
rant

Thanks, rant!

@Fiend Hunter: Part of the reason I wanted to include it is that I could potentially have some fun with my own creatures, instead of just removing someone else's. It also happens to work with both Reveillark and Sun Titan.
@Catastrophe: You make a great point, and when I eventually end up cutting some gold cards, I'll be sure to put this in.
@Consecrated Sphinx: That's exactly what I was thinking...Frost Titan is another one that could've done a similar thing.
@Sewer Nemesis: Another problem is that I really like all my other black four-drops.
@Thornling: Not sure if I have one, and there's a lot of other green fives I could run. I'll probably add either Genesis, Vorapede, or Stomphowler for Genesis Wave.

Didn't realize you weren't running Vorapede. Out of the cards we've discussed, Genesis and Vorapede would be the two I'd run for sure. Stomphowler and Thornling are great but not as good as Genesis and 'pede.

Cheers,
rant

Yeah, now that I think about it, Wolfir needs someone else to be awesome, and Vorapede is fine by himself. Vorapede > Wolfir.

Thanks, eidolon, for all of the great feedback. This was very insightful, and I'll make sure to consider it the next time I am looking to make changes.

Speaking of changes, I made a large order of dollar cards online last night, and I also finally broke down and cut 4 cards from each guild. With the 40 extra slots, I added 5 to each color, 10 lands (fetches), and 5 more artifacts.

The first two live runs of my cube happened last weekend. We had an 8-man draft followed by a 6-man draft, and overall things went very well.

The two main requests from the group were as follows:
- Needed a few more fatties to ramp into. Preferably green, but it doesn't have to be. Just something to go over the top and break the mid-range stalemates.
- Needed a few more mana rocks for the non-green players. Gilded Lotus and Chromatic Lantern were suggested.

I think you have a good number of fatties. You are running just about the same amount I am and my cube is 50 cards bigger. I think the problem may be not enough ways to break board stalemates (burn, evasive guys--like maybe the Soltaris--and such). Also, good fast aggro decks help prevent stagnant board states.

Chromatic Lantern is good. I don't think You need Gilded Lotus at this size, but it's not a bad option.

Cheers,
rant

@the Soltaris: I definitely gained more of an appreciation for them this weekend, but I'm still kind of on the fence about them because they don't interact with other creatures.

Someone brought up the idea of adding more combo cards to the cube so that it doesn't get stale from everyone drafting fair decks. Right now, the closest thing to a combo that I have is Tinker. I own copies of things like Sneak Attack, Intuition, Gifts Ungiven, and Upheaval. I don't have an Entomb (yet), but I could see Buried Alive being added.

I'm also pretty biased against Storm combo decks, so it's unlikely that I'll be going in that direction anytime soon.

Most combos are hard to pull off in cube, including storm. The problem is that unless all the pieces are good enough on their own they don't get drafted or get drafted and the combo fails to come together for the drafter. Either way, you get weak decks.

Sneak Attack is really good because it doesn't need to be a combo deck. You can just pump out ETB guys as instants. I really like using it to throw a Nekrataal or Flametongu Kavu down in the middle of combat. Bonus if you have a Mimic Vat, Crystal Shard, or suspended Greater Gargadon. Sneak Attack also works really well with the reanimation spells.

Upheaval belongs in every cube. It's just one of the five best blue spells in cube.

I found Buried Alive too specific. It's only good in hardcore reanimator. Entomb is much better.

Just by adding Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker you can create some combo decks.

Cheers,
rant

I've now run several 8-man drafts with my current list, and UW control decks have won all of them. I'm still working on acquiring a couple red cards like Stromkirk Noble and Ash Zealot, but I feel like the blue cards are a little too strong. Any other things I can do to shore up the aggro part of my cube?