Hello everybody and welcome to The Rock standard primer! First of all, I apologize if this is in the wrong subforum. I made the thread here because this deck shares Junk's colors and also plays with the graveyard, but if this is not the correct subforum, report the thread to some mod so he/she can move it to the proper one, please. Also, note this primer is not about Frites, but The Rock.
So, with the arrival of Dragon's Maze, some interesting cards in our colors got released. Obzedat's Aid comes to mind as a one-shot Unburial Rites that can bring back some other permanents and maybe will replace them in September. Putrefy and Gaze of Granite are more good cards that we can play. Varolz, the Scar-Striped is a nice recursive creature and a sac outlet. And finally, the backbone of the deck: Deadbridge Chant. This enchant virtually transforms our graveyard into an extension of our hand, and with our "Selective engines" (As I like to call them), the "random" clause in Deadbridge Chant will no longer be so random.
1º: Q + A
Q: What is The Rock? A: Traditionally, The Rock is a B/G (with sometimes a W splash) recursion deck that plays by exhausting your opponent's resources while you can net some card advantage yourself (via extra drawing or recurring the graveyard) and strike with beefy, aggresive creatures at the same time. Eventually, your strong beaters and your card advantage will overwhelm your opponent, granting you the victory.
Q: Why play The Rock over Frites? A: While they play with the graveyard, these two are entirely different decks. Frites tries to ramp into Unburial Rites and brings back something big like Angel of Serenity or Craterhoof Behemot that wins then the game, while as I said above, our gameplan consists on exhausting the enemy's resources. Additionally, we can play as the beatdown or the control depending on what we're facing, so we're more versatile. On a side note, both are weak to graveyard hate, but we are slightly less weaker because we can always win with our beefy creatures and our controlling tools like removal and discard.
Q: What hates The Rock? A: This variant is badly screwed by graveyard hate. Rest in Peace, Tormod's Crypt, opposing Deathrite Shaman, Ash Zealot and Dryad Militant are all graveyard hate that everyone packs on their side. Fortunately enough to us, we have answers to deal with them in our colors.
This is the inamovible core of the deck. As I said before, Deadbridge Chant is our backbone, as it grants us all of the recursion we crave for. Deathrite Shaman and Varolz, the Scar-Striped are both "selective engines" and very solid creatures on their own. By "selective engines" I mean that with Varolz, we can scavenge our low-cost creatures, and with Deathrite Shaman, we can get rid of lands, creatures and noncreature spells while ramping / pinging for 2 to the dome / gaining 2 life. On their own, Varolz can perfectly be our beater of choice alongside Lotleth Troll: it's cheap, and can regenerate itself, so it's a great creature to buff with scavenge.
3º Building the Deck 1 CMC Creatures:
[Staple] - Deathrite Shaman: As I said above, it's part of the core of the deck, so it's a staple. Can burn to the dome for damage, and helping us stabilize against aggro by gaining some life. It's one of the main "selective engines" from the deck to minimize Deadbridge Chant's random effect. Doubles as mainboard hate vs. Flashback and Rites.
- Duress: Spot discard is always nice for exhausting opponents, specially control. Pitches Tormod's Crypt and Rest in Peace too, while also nabbing Sphinx's Revelation and other obscene things against control.
[Staple] - Lotleth Troll: This is our beater of choice. Cheap, regenerates cheaply too, dodges practically all of the removal bar Oblivion Ring, Putrefy and morbid Tragic Slip by just paying B, and can buff itself while also being a sac outlet. We can play the aggro role thanks to this guy, and finish up with him as a beater. It's also the best scavenge target, thanks to trample, regen, and buffing himself.
- Blood Scrivener: This can be our Dark Confidant of sorts. At the cost of 1 life, which is easily regained with Deathrite Shaman, we get 2 cards. And it's also a body. However, with Deadbridge Chant activating before this, we will have to ditch the card we've retrieved if it's not a creature to Loltroll. Nice synergy with Grim Backwoods.
Utility:
- Farseek: A staple in Jund, it's not that needed here, since we can discard our cards to power up Loltroll while ramping with Shaman. However, it's also an option if you plan to go bigger. Can fetch shocks, so it's nice.
[Staple] - Abrupt Decay: Remember all the graveyard hate I talked about in the Q+A section? Guess what they all have in common: they all fall to this. It's a removal at instant speed that can take out Boros Reckoner without triggering it's ability, Champion of the Parish of any size, tokens, Loxodon Smiter, and all kinds of aggro creatures and troublesome permanents that get in our way. Also, it can't be countered.
Staple - Orzhov Charm: Another catch-all removal. This hurts us a little, but it's also at instant speed and eats pretty much everything. We can regain the life lost with Deathrite Shaman. This also doubles as "selective engine" with the retrieving mode, since we can reanimate a Deathrite Shaman if we don't have one or to simply have more "selective engines" while being selective ourselves. Can also save a creature.
- Grisly Salvage: This card is practically raw card advantage for us. Digs deep for answers, gives us a creature, and ditches card to the graveyard for 2 mana at instant speed, fueling Varolz, Shaman, and Deadbridge Chant.
- Devour Flesh: One of the edicts avaible, lets us control the board after a sweep. It's cheap and the lifegain is no problem for us, we have all the time in the world (unlike aggro).
- Renounce the Guilds: The other edict, this is more narrow, but will more often than not take relevant things that the opponent wouldn't sac to a Devour Flesh.
[Staple] - Varolz, the Scar-Striped: Another cheap body to continue the aggro, this one is a sac outlet. We can sac our EtB creatures like Centaur Healer, Acidic Slime, Thragtusk, Restoration Angel or Angel of Serenity to this just to abuse them again with Deadbridge Chant or Obzedat's Aid. Can beef itself while being selective about the graveyard, regenerates without mana open, so this makes him another good beater.
- Loxodon Smiter: Another beefy creature that can't be countered and gives a neat +4/+4 for 3 mana if we scavenge it from Varolz. If the opponent tries to strike with a Rakdos return, we just can slam him down. It's also very good at stopping blitz decks, and is out of Searing Spear's range for aggro deck. Can 1-for-1 Boros Reckoner, and, all in all, it's one of the best beaters around.
- Vampire Nighthawk: Stalling card that gains us life and can double as an evasive beater in mid-to late game. This can be the target of one scavenge boost to quickly finish the game through the air. Plus, it trades with everything.
- Wolfir Avenger: Exchanges the value that Nighthawk offers for Flash against control decks and as a surprise blockers, and is a lot more tougher against creature decks, as it can regenerate all day long, which makes it an excellent scavenge target.
- Centaur Healer: Good body with good EtB at a reasonable prize. Trades with everything that aggro throws at us, negates one Searing Spear, and probably lures another one. It's EtB can be abused through Deadbridge Chant, and being a low-cost it can be included in MB or SB pretty often, as it doubles as cheap scavenge fodder.
- Predator Ooze: This one's tough to cast, but it's a major roadblock. It's indestructible, so it's the optimal scavenge target, and grows on it's own, but outside being a silly beater, it has practically no value.
Utility:
[Staple] - Putrefy: Another catch-all removal at instant speed, this time with the "can't be regenerated" clause. It's the same CMC as murder, and doubles as Tormod's Crypt removal.
[Staple] - Lingering Souls: Pretty much a staple in every deck running WB. Gives us bodies to chump block that also can be evasive beaters late game thanks to scavenge, and can be selective itself by exiling it thanks to Flashback. Also, can be ditched to Lily to be casted cheaper or if we lack W.
[Staple] - Liliana of the Veil: Card advantage machine. We don't mind our stuff hitting the graveyard, and at the same time, she devastates the opponent's hand. She can throw an EtB creature for Chant to bring it back, and can throw Souls and eat away opponent's creatures (even Geist of Saint Traft or Aetherling).
- Oblivion Ring: Another catch-all answer, but this tiime at sorcery speed. It removes problematic permanent that can't be removed by conventional ways, and is effective against all of our hate.
- Underworld Connections: Repeated card draw engine, might be a 1-or-2 of to get the upper hand against control.
4 CMC Creatures:
- Restoration Angel: Good card to abuse EtB effects, and can come back thanks to Chant. However, it's not a 4-of like some builds, but more as a 1-or-2 of for the flex spots. Keep in mind that if it exiles something with counters on it, they vanish.
- Disciple of Bolas: This card has a great EtB effect for us. Gives card advantage, gains life, provides a body for beating, blocking or holding scavenge counters, and it's effect can be reused to generate even more CA thanks to chant. Only downside is that it's cost / power are not exactly great to make him a scavenge target if we need to. It's also a sac outlet.
Utility:
- Garruk Relentless: Gets 2/2 tokens or tokens with deathtouch to stabilize who can also be target of scavenge counters. His day side also removes troublesome creatures, whereas his flip side is a sac outlet that lets us tutor for EtB creatures to abuse. Also, his ultimate is very, very relevant in this deck, and it's easy to cast.
- Liliana of the Dark Realms: Big Lily fetches us lands so we don't dump them into the graveyard unnecessarily and can act as a removal / buffer. His ultimate is a little bit irrelevant, but ramp is ramp.
- Divine Reckoning: Wrath that lets us save our choice, scavenged beater while destroying everything else. The remaining creature can be killed with removal spell. Doubles as a recursive and selective wrath.
- Barter in Blood: This is a mini-wrath that takes out Hexproof creatures, as well as damaging aggro. Sideboard material at best.
- Sorin, Lord of Innistrad: Another 4-mana walker, the vampire buys us precious time by setting tokens (with lifelink no less) alongside Lingering Souls. His emblem is also rarely irrelevant, and multiples can be set up.
5 CMC Creatures:
- Thragtusk: If you're looking for cards to EtB abuse, look no further. This one also has a LtB effect, so it's the best one to abuse. Can be used as a beater, it's resilient to sweepers, gains us life, it's a perfect target for Disciple of Bolas, and can almost never be 2-for-1'd
- Obzedat, Ghost Council: Big beater that dodges sorcery speed removal, stabilizes against aggro, and is a nightmare to control. It's EtB effect is abusable either on his own or via Chant.
- Wolfir Silverheart: Big beefy creature with EtB effect that can be used to create a huge beater on the swing. His cost / power is not that bad for scavenge uses. Even if it's killed, it will keep coming back with Chant or Aid, so it's a great finisher to keep in mind.
- Acidic Slime: In a multicolor environment, this can hardly lock an opponent's manabase, as well as dealing with troublesome permanents otherwise untouchable for us. Being a EtB effect, it can be abused with Chant, and it also has Deathtouch to trade with everything in it's path.
Utility:
- Vraska the Unseen: Yet another planeswalker to us, this one is criminally underrated. Between her two first abilities combined and our removal, he can clear the board pretty easily, and enters at a respectably 5 loyalty.
- Garruk, Primal Hunter: Our fifth planeswalker makes the right size tokens (3/3), and his second ability is pretty synergystic with the scavenge mechanic: we will have a lot of card advantage.
- Obzedat's Aid: For the same CMC as Rites of Unburial (and no flashback), we get a selective spell that can further de-randomize Chant by taking what we need right then, and replacing it's grave with himself for further recursion. This goes over Rites because aside from creatures, it can bring us planeswalkers and a destroyed Chant.
X & 5+ CMC Creatures:
[Staple] - Angel of Serenity: The signature frites creature can have some work here too. We can constantly bring it back thanks to Chant and Aid, and it's effect is highly recursive and selective: It brings us back creatures we need right now, while at the same time lessening Chant's randomness, and also can work as a triple Oblivion Ring + Unsummon with legs. It's the main reason for splashing white.
- Griselbrand This demon is a giant flying beatstick like the angel, but it trades recursion for card advantage: At the cost of 7 life, he will draw us an entire hand for feeding Loltroll, or simply for using it.
Utility:
[Staple] - Gaze of Granite: Our sweeper of choice. For the cost of 5 can be cast on turn 4 like a Supreme Verdict against Naya Blitz to destroy everything they have. It also sweeps token armies for a low cost.
- Killing Wave: Less mana-intensive than Gaze of Granite, and drains life, but also gives the opponent choice on what to sacrifice and what not.
[Staple] - Deadbridge Chant: The backbone of the deck. It has already been explained: Drop it, turn your graveyard into an extension of your hand, then win with recursion. Can be ramped through Shaman to be casted even earlier than turn 6.
Lands:
- Grim Backwoods: Sac outlet + Card draw. Turns our doomed creatures into cards in hand, and also can be used to dig for answers, sink mana, or kill a EtB creature to reuse it's effect.
- Vault of the Archangel: Giving Deathtouch + Lifelink is no joke. We now trade for everything, and our beefy swingers gain us the life lost in the first turns.
Haven't tested with two yet, but I think it's too few. Multiples can be pitched to Loltroll, and I think that multiples on the field trigger separately (correct me if I'm wrong). 3 is a good number if we plan to last a few turns, so I don't consider it a bad topdeck. Might be proven wrong though, but that's just my opinion
Haven't tested with two yet, but I think it's too few. Multiples can be pitched to Loltroll, and I think that multiples on the field trigger separately (correct me if I'm wrong). 3 is a good number if we plan to last a few turns, so I don't consider it a bad topdeck. Might be proven wrong though, but that's just my opinion
Not sure how you can pitch them to the troll, they aren't creatures.
It seems to me like at some point you might as well just play Unburial Rites and /or Underworld Connections instead of Deadbridge Chant. The Chant seems to be your engine card as it mills 10 cards from your deck, but do you really want to be waiting that long to get Varolz going?
I think if you just took out the Chant and added in other sources of card advantage you'd have a decent variant Rites list (or Junk Midrange/Aggro even). I'm really not liking a major point of the deck being a 6 CMC enchantment that doesn't virtually win you the game when you cast it. That being said... something like Assemble the Legion saw fringe play against control and that was an expensive enchantment... but Assemble had inevitability with it's 1/1 haste creatures. Chant on the other hand essentially is just "at the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card". Sure, you get to put a creature into play if you get one of those, but with 6 lands out you can play any creature you drew off of Underworld Connections anyway.
It seems to me like at some point you might as well just play Unburial Rites and /or Underworld Connections instead of Deadbridge Chant. The Chant seems to be your engine card as it mills 10 cards from your deck, but do you really want to be waiting that long to get Varolz going?
I think if you just took out the Chant and added in other sources of card advantage you'd have a decent variant Rites list (or Junk Midrange/Aggro even). I'm really not liking a major point of the deck being a 6 CMC enchantment that doesn't virtually win you the game when you cast it. That being said... something like Assemble the Legion saw fringe play against control and that was an expensive enchantment... but Assemble had inevitability with it's 1/1 haste creatures. Chant on the other hand essentially is just "at the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card". Sure, you get to put a creature into play if you get one of those, but with 6 lands out you can play any creature you drew off of Underworld Connections anyway.
I see your point there, but Chant is not a draw engine like Underworld Connections is. It's more like a recursion engine, that let's you reuse removal, recur to creatures with EtB effects, and lets you establish a lock when it drops. Underworld Connections play completely different to Chant in the sense that both are different kinds of Card Advantage. You can play the beatdown first with Smiter, Loltroll or Varolz, and then lategame dominate with Deadbridge's recycling engine; while the opponent runs out of resources you keep recycling the ones you want via the selective engines. It's the thing that lets the deck go flexible: you can be the beatdown vs control where you won't want to resolve the enchantment but finish quickly, or you can slow down aggro while taking away their resources till Chant hits the board.
I see your point there, but Chant is not a draw engine like Underworld Connections is. It's more like a recursion engine, that let's you reuse removal, recur to creatures with EtB effects, and lets you establish a lock when it drops. Underworld Connections play completely different to Chant in the sense that both are different kinds of Card Advantage. You can play the beatdown first with Smiter, Loltroll or Varolz, and then lategame dominate with Deadbridge's recycling engine; while the opponent runs out of resources you keep recycling the ones you want via the selective engines. It's the thing that lets the deck go flexible: you can be the beatdown vs control where you won't want to resolve the enchantment but finish quickly, or you can slow down aggro while taking away their resources till Chant hits the board.
But... because you are getting back a random card, it's not the most effective recursion engine. Say you play Deadbridge Chant and you have 3 cards in your grave. Putrefy and two other cards (Farseek and DRS we'll say for the sake of argument). Chant puts another 10 cards in your graveyard. We're looking at like a 1/13 chance that that specific Putrefy gets taken. Obviously another removal spell could've been milled in one of the 10 cards, but realize that if you end up "recurring" one of the milled 10 cards, thats effectively the same as just drawing that card from your library.
Admittedly you can up your percentage points with DRS and Varolz removing all non-putrefy cards. But it's not going to be a significant enough increase to justify the extra work. At the end of the day you are just getting 1 extra card a turn (and any creatures come into play for free), at roughly the same percentages as you would if you had drawn a card like normal.
If we're going to really go all in with this idea, you have to go crazy and do something like play/sac Elixer of Immortality or Tormod's Crypt after you chant. And then you can cast Putrefy and keep casting it every turn. Although ironically the first idea is probably more competitive.
Both ideas are highly appreciated. Elixir of Inmortality would also grant hate against milling from Nephalia Drownyard and Big Jace, and I agree about Grisly Salvage
If you want reanimation and you are running white for it, just play Junk Rites or ditch white and run Rise from the Grave as a 2 of or something.
The deck will inherently focus itself to a more Junk Rites list as you push it further into develop ment. I say this because that is where it lead for me before Junk Rites was even a thing and the lists now days are not far off from what I initially had back around October and November.
For a Rock strategy I would just stick with BG, the reanimation from Rise from the Grave will let you just outright roll over an unsuspecting Rites player while giving you extra bodies with Thragtusks and such. The white just does not really seem that necessary.
Dark ritual theres ways around what your saying, using cards with FB to exile if you don't want them again, having drs exile the fluff, having cards with scavenge so you won't get them etc etc. Chant isn't the most random thing ever if you build your deck with it in mind.
A few things, is Chant worth just 2 slots and use the other slot for AoS, having 1 angel seems really odd.
Is gyre sage actually good in this deck, it can go on the offensive plan since most of the creatures will evolve it and it accelerates fairly well for chant/tusk/varolz shennigans.
Is splitting Ozbedat's aid and unburial rites worth it? since aid is more for when the chant is already online the way i see it or as a value spell in the midgame.
Why no Hoof as a 1 of, i guess im seeing a lot of late game potential and just throwing in 1 hoof doesn't even seem like the worst idea ever and having the deck have the lategame of reanimator while having a nicer blend of ways it can win the game seems nice.
Last one, Is Debt to the Deathless worth it as a 1 of, a double fireball to the dome with lifegain is probably pretty good at randomly finishing the game and it works decently well with chant.
But yeah the deck does look a lot like reanimator at this point idk if there is a way around that or if that is actually the direction it wants to go or something completely different.
Is there a reason to run Cremate over Crypt Incursion? Is it really more important to draw a card than gain insane amounts of life against decks like Naya Blitz? You have Sign in Blood already... it also has your back against Rites decks.
Ben I feel like even though they share the same name the deck you are talking about is a completely different deck than the one the OP is trying to build. Both seem to be about controlling board presence and card advantage but they go about doing it through very different cards.
Dark ritual theres ways around what your saying, using cards with FB to exile if you don't want them again, having drs exile the fluff, having cards with scavenge so you won't get them etc etc. Chant isn't the most random thing ever if you build your deck with it in mind.
There are ways to make it less random, but if all you are doing is turning it from 20% to 30% odds (with Scavenge/DRS), we're doing too much work and not getting that much advantage over just drawing an extra card to make it not worth running over something like Underworld Connections. Elixer of Immortality will set up potential 100% odds you get the card you want. Regrow effects double your odds as well. But playing those cards means you are playing less Thragtusks and removal spells. So there is a balance.
Is there a reason to run Cremate over Crypt Incursion? Is it really more important to draw a card than gain insane amounts of life against decks like Naya Blitz? You have Sign in Blood already... it also has your back against Rites decks.
Cremate does a lot of things better than Crypt Incursion[/card]. First off, it replaces itself with a new card, which will always be at least someone useful. Lifegain is just not worth much in control matchups. On top of that, Cremate can also shut off Snapcaster Mage triggers. You just exile the card they target in response to the trigger, before they gain the ability to flash it back. And if that wasn't enough, it helps you prune unwanted cards from your graveyard once you play Deadbridge Chant, as the returns are random. This card can be excessively powerful when you have the ability to prune your graveyard down to only triggers you want.
Cremate does a lot of things better than Crypt Incursion[/card]. First off, it replaces itself with a new card, which will always be at least someone useful. Lifegain is just not worth much in control matchups. On top of that, Cremate can also shut off Snapcaster Mage triggers. You just exile the card they target in response to the trigger, before they gain the ability to flash it back. And if that wasn't enough, it helps you prune unwanted cards from your graveyard once you play Deadbridge Chant, as the returns are random. This card can be excessively powerful when you have the ability to prune your graveyard down to only triggers you want.
is cremate necessary considering we already have DRS?
Ben Delat, i remember you from your extensive testing a few standard formats back with MBC, i enjoy your list. I like it much more than the opening list even though its different. Yours is more "Rock" imo, and am interested in seeing where you go with it. Was planning on developing Dega control this standard season but will definitely dip into this G/B you have shown.
On a side note: I don't feel as if white is necessary, but I do like lotleth troll
I really want this discussion to continue, I feel that a deck of this style is rather strong right now. I was wondering if there were any other cards we may be missing and if anyone else had any good decklists that we could compare to the few we have here.
Also I think it is pretty obvious that we need green and black but is it worth splashing a color like white or even blue? and for what cards?
I think a red splash is better for access to rakdos returns slaughter games and possibly faithless looting. That's not exactly the approach I'm taking, but here is my starting list that I've brainstormed
EDIT: NVM red. its not worth the splash for jund when u can just make a jund deck with olivia and not worry about the inconsistencies.
[strikethrough]I think sire of insanity plays well with deadbridge chant, but maybe what I have is too cute. After more thought, varolz is much stronger than I thought and obvious interactions with stuff like vexing devil is there, but I want less of the cute stuff and more of the quality stuff.[/strikethrough] One thing i don't like about my list is grisly salvage with deadbridge chant, but that is why DRS is there to filter our yard. I'm also worried about salvaging and throwing away my enchantment in the graveyard. wondering if main decking something like treasured find is even worth the risk? possibly going 3/3 split between sign in blood and salvage may be better overall.
Also, I like ben's list because its very straight forward, but in testing, if i dont have early removal playing a turn 3 geralf's just isn't enough against aggro. it can't block etc. anyway. this is what i want to use for initial testing.
color wise, i feel like the best tertiary option is white followed by red and then blue.
I had actually started with the Victim of the Nights and Tragic Slips mostly in the board, but decided to switch to an anti-aggro strategy as I arrived.
Now despite my complete lack of any preparation with the deck and with me usually playing a Grixis Control variant - I managed to win the 17 man tournament 3-1-0 (1 draw).
I saw reference to this being a Jund variant - which it technically is, but it plays like MBC and I would say for the purposes of this thread it qualifies.
Anyway the stars of the show:
Deathrite Shaman - the life gain was relevant in the aggro matchups, the life loss won the match against control/midrange. It stopped undying. If I owned a 4th - this would easily be a 4-of
Olivia Voldaren - pinged dorks in the Bant matchup, stole a Boros Reckoner and won games over the top. 2-of is enough, but I could be tempted to run 4 and just discard to Lili
Rolling Temblor - the flashback was key to me winning against Naya Humans on a stabilised board and him having a Huntmaster and a couple creatures at me after I had burned most of my removal. Still a 1-of though.
Chandra, the Firebrand - Surprisingly useful to tick over the opponents life total and kill some dorks - but mostly ate an O-Ring or fogged for me. I'm happy to keep at 1, but could still be dropped.
I'm thinking of building more into the deck and refine it better.
I think Abrupt Decay definitely has a place in the deck - so I'm looking for 2 of those to bring in for Victim/Slip. I may also run 2 Duress mainboard, even if it whiffs vs. Aggro - knowing their hand is still useful.
I'm thinking of adding Bloodline Keeper, Olivia can turn my Shaman's into vampires to get me to flipping it quicker. Another consideration is Vampire Nocturnus, I would run 1 of each of these over the Desecration Demons.
Conley Woods played 4 Gloom Surgeon for the anti-aggro strategy, I think I could be tempted to get these if I wanted to go heavy anti-aggro, but I don't feel comfortable making a strong meta call.
I like Ben's list - having creatures that survive post-Mutilate (Beast token and Geralf's Messenger) just puts your opponent in such a difficult position - he has to commit creatures to block, but he can't overcommit for fear of Mutilate.
Before I go on - I just want to talk about Deadbridge Chant - I'm not convinced. Staff of Nin is almost strictly better - card advantage and damage to the head/dorks.
So I've been looking at the deck and trying to find ways of refining it.
One of the things I didn't like was Rakdos Keyrune - I didn't need the ramp (although the mana fix was always appreciated) and there are many better things I can do on turn 3 (Liliana of the Veil and Vampire Nighthawk). Also since I wanted to go more Aggro in the Aggro-control - I'm thinking of dropping the Staff of Nin.
My big issue is my 2 drop creature spot - I want a creature that impacts the board (Ravenous Rats is really looking like an option...) but has some sort of power (a 1/1 doesn't seem to cut, also Loxodon Smiter). Gloom Surgeon is great against aggro, but does it help in the race against control? Knight of Infamy also seems like a good option. Where I'm at is to run 2 of each them - with the Knights in the board. Although I'm open to suggestions from the board (key note: it must be castable with just black mana).
From a sideboard perspective, I'd want 3 Slaughter Games as a start and would think along these lines:
vs Aggro
out: 2 Rakdos's Return, 1 Chandra, the Firebrand, 1 Sign in Blood, 2 Ravenous Rats, 1 Duress
in: 1 Mutilate, 1 Blasphemous Act (would be Mutilate if I had a 3rd...), 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Tragic Slip, 1 Tribute to Hunger, 2 Dead Weight
vs Esper
out: 2 Tragic Slip, 2 Victim of Night, 1 Mutilate, 1 Rolling Temblor, 2 Gloom Surgeon
in: 3 Duress, 3 Slaughter Games, 2 Knight of Infamy
(I could contemplate dropping a Vampire Nighthawk for a Pithing Needle here)
vs UWR Flash
out: 2 Gloom Surgeon, 1 Mutilate, 1 Rolling Temblor, 1 Chandra, the Firebrand, 2 Tragic Slip, 2 Abrupt Decay
in: 2 Knight of Infamy, 3 Slaughter Games, 3 Duress, 1 Liliana of the Veil
vs Jund
out: 2 Victim of Night, 2 Tragic Slip, 1 Rolling Temblor, 1 Chandra, the Firebrand, 2 Gloom Surgeon
in: 3 Duress, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Mutilate, 3 Slaughter Games
vs Naya Midrange
out: 2 Gloom Surgeon, 2 Ravenous Rats, 1 Chandra, the Firebrand, 2 Rakdos's Return
in: 2 Knight of Infamy, 2 Dead Weight, 1 Mutilate, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Pithing Needle
As far as I can tell, that's 13 sideboard slots. Willing to take ideas on the last 2 - perhaps 2 Curse of Death's Hold for Aristocrats and Token decks?
I don't think we need a red splash, we might as well be playing jund - Here we get to play Mutilate, a big incentive, also with a black heavy mana base, sign in blood, so unlike jund we have a bit of card draw, and aren't completely reliant on the kindness of the top of our deck..
Hence I only splash the green and red - Mutilate is pretty much our biggest draw and you have to build around it if you're going to run it.
I'm with you Ken, I've cut 1 sign in blood, to 3 - It's not so good on the draw, can be horrible against aggressive decks, and with 3, we still have a good chance of having it in our opener, or when you need it...
If you're running Cremate this makes sense, what about Altar's Reap - can be cast in response to a creature dying.
Part of what makes Deadbridge Chant deceptively more powerful than say staff of nin, isn't that it reanimates dudes for free..
It's that the cards in your GY are of higher quality than the cards in your deck - The cards in your GY are the cards you've used to far, so creatures that have died, planeswalkers that have died, removal that you used...Rarely will you find land in your GY, thus, more live draws from the chant as opposed to staff, and then you can factor in the fact that in reanimates..
Ye, I forgot the reanimate clause, my bad. To be honest, I'm still against it because its 6CMC and I think you want to be a bit more aggressive here.
I'm playing 3 Cremate in my MB - The card is deceptively strong - Relevant in a lot of matches, never dead, and helps to hit land in the early game, kind of like how thought scour works for flash - Except, we get, to get people, and if you like, filter any land that may have found it's way into the yard for Chant..
Where would you put it in my list? The minute it was spoiled I liked it, I guess my Deathrites are doing a lot of the job Cremate is doing, so probably not as necessary in my list.
I found out the same as you Ken, needed more early plays or early removal to help fend off of aggro..So I simply replaced the 3rd Putrefy for a Victim of Night, to up the amount of early removal I have available..It's essentially the same card, not much that victim doesn't kill
True, it does whiff against Zombies and Huntmaster though. And they are relevant - so I wouldn't want to go to hard into them.
One other thing..The lists online are playing only these 10 Green Sources, but I wonder if I might need one more, considering I now have more spells that require green, It shouldn't hurt hat much to play one more gate, or even a forest - The GPT winning list ran a forest, but it isn't a swamp, so sad mutilate, sad messenger..Gah, we'll see after tonight..
I think you're ok - you only really have 2 Abrupt Decay you want to cast on turn 2, Putrefy is turn 3, Rot-farm turn 4, and Thragtusk and Vraska are turn 5. All only require 1 green source - so 10 is perfectly fine.
I totally revamped my list after play testing today. Grisly salvage was cool but I couldn't risk throwing away deadbridge Chant as it is a card I want to build around. Also, varolz is much better than I originally had thought. His scavenge ability in conjunction with a tithe drinker or vamp nighthawk is very powerful and desecration demon can give a creature 6 counters for a very low scavenge cost. I also feel like 4 is the magic Cmc for this deck so I added farseek and revamped the mana base to hopefully hit it more. Also took out mutilate fornmoremcrestures in hopes of activating scavenge more. I want more powerful digging but I don't know how to get it without splashing a tertiary color nor do I know If its worth it. This list is similar to my heartless summoning list I made elsewhere just sans heartless and has more removal.
I totally revamped my list after play testing today. Grisly salvage was cool but I couldn't risk throwing away deadbridge Chant as it is a card I want to build around. Also, varolz is much better than I originally had thought. His scavenge ability in conjunction with a tithe drinker or vamp nighthawk is very powerful and desecration demon can give a creature 6 counters for a very low scavenge cost. I also feel like 4 is the magic Cmc for this deck so I added farseek and revamped the mana base to hopefully hit it more. Also took out mutilate fornmoremcrestures in hopes of activating scavenge more. I want more powerful digging but I don't know how to get it without splashing a tertiary color nor do I know If its worth it. This list is similar to my heartless summoning list I made elsewhere just sans heartless and has more removal.
Good point I really like varolz.
I did some testing and he was an all star, making full use of my mana and beating my opponents in the red zone.
However I do feel that building your deck this way could also weaken the power of deadbridge chant, because bye doing this your very much playing the aggressor and chant is a soft lock allowing you to recur removal and get free creatures into play. Playing lots of weenies like shaman and troll ( I am only calling them weenies because they are < 3 cmc) makes a free creature via chant so much less exciting.
However on the other side playing chant with varolz in play is huge, because you just created a bunch of new targets for his ability, this also may be putting all your eggs in one basket though if your opponent has removal.
Honestly everything I just said is irrelevant though until I do some playtesting soo........... we will find out eventually lmao
I have gone undefeated with my list so far but I've only played 8 or so total games. I've challenged Naya humans, some really weird Azorius humans build that was very creative, junk tokens (this was pretty difficult, i may want sever if it becomes a real thing), and junk reanimator.
I was skeptical about having nighthawk in the side. I wanted him main for the lifegain, but in hindsight, I could always just play crypt incursion or something. Life gain is only necessary against hyper aggressive decks imo, and crypt incursion also acts as graveyard removal against frites. Also, loved the itneractions between varolz, lotleth and desecration demon.
Lastly, rot farm skeleton in the games i did pull him was awesome. I"m not sure if i want more than one simply because its not like I'm getting deadbridge chant online that often, however, filling the graveyard to scavenge my threats is very powerful.
i kind of want a 24th land, but list seems ok so far. Farseek is necessary because of this for me.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the banner!
Hello everybody and welcome to The Rock standard primer! First of all, I apologize if this is in the wrong subforum. I made the thread here because this deck shares Junk's colors and also plays with the graveyard, but if this is not the correct subforum, report the thread to some mod so he/she can move it to the proper one, please. Also, note this primer is not about Frites, but The Rock.
So, with the arrival of Dragon's Maze, some interesting cards in our colors got released. Obzedat's Aid comes to mind as a one-shot Unburial Rites that can bring back some other permanents and maybe will replace them in September. Putrefy and Gaze of Granite are more good cards that we can play. Varolz, the Scar-Striped is a nice recursive creature and a sac outlet. And finally, the backbone of the deck: Deadbridge Chant. This enchant virtually transforms our graveyard into an extension of our hand, and with our "Selective engines" (As I like to call them), the "random" clause in Deadbridge Chant will no longer be so random.
1º: Q + A
A: Traditionally, The Rock is a B/G (with sometimes a W splash) recursion deck that plays by exhausting your opponent's resources while you can net some card advantage yourself (via extra drawing or recurring the graveyard) and strike with beefy, aggresive creatures at the same time. Eventually, your strong beaters and your card advantage will overwhelm your opponent, granting you the victory.
Q: Why play The Rock over Frites?
A: While they play with the graveyard, these two are entirely different decks. Frites tries to ramp into Unburial Rites and brings back something big like Angel of Serenity or Craterhoof Behemot that wins then the game, while as I said above, our gameplan consists on exhausting the enemy's resources. Additionally, we can play as the beatdown or the control depending on what we're facing, so we're more versatile. On a side note, both are weak to graveyard hate, but we are slightly less weaker because we can always win with our beefy creatures and our controlling tools like removal and discard.
Q: What hates The Rock?
A: This variant is badly screwed by graveyard hate. Rest in Peace, Tormod's Crypt, opposing Deathrite Shaman, Ash Zealot and Dryad Militant are all graveyard hate that everyone packs on their side. Fortunately enough to us, we have answers to deal with them in our colors.
2º: The Core
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
This is the inamovible core of the deck. As I said before, Deadbridge Chant is our backbone, as it grants us all of the recursion we crave for. Deathrite Shaman and Varolz, the Scar-Striped are both "selective engines" and very solid creatures on their own. By "selective engines" I mean that with Varolz, we can scavenge our low-cost creatures, and with Deathrite Shaman, we can get rid of lands, creatures and noncreature spells while ramping / pinging for 2 to the dome / gaining 2 life. On their own, Varolz can perfectly be our beater of choice alongside Lotleth Troll: it's cheap, and can regenerate itself, so it's a great creature to buff with scavenge.
3º Building the Deck
1 CMC
Creatures:
Utility:
- Duress: Spot discard is always nice for exhausting opponents, specially control. Pitches Tormod's Crypt and Rest in Peace too, while also nabbing Sphinx's Revelation and other obscene things against control.
- Appetite for Brains: Pretty much the same as Duress, but this can't take out RiP and Crypt. It compensates by pitching Obzedat, Ghost Council, Thundermaw Hellkite, Thragtusk or Restoration Angel
2 CMC
Creatures:
- Blood Scrivener: This can be our Dark Confidant of sorts. At the cost of 1 life, which is easily regained with Deathrite Shaman, we get 2 cards. And it's also a body. However, with Deadbridge Chant activating before this, we will have to ditch the card we've retrieved if it's not a creature to Loltroll. Nice synergy with Grim Backwoods.
Utility:
[Staple] - Abrupt Decay: Remember all the graveyard hate I talked about in the Q+A section? Guess what they all have in common: they all fall to this. It's a removal at instant speed that can take out Boros Reckoner without triggering it's ability, Champion of the Parish of any size, tokens, Loxodon Smiter, and all kinds of aggro creatures and troublesome permanents that get in our way. Also, it can't be countered.
Staple - Orzhov Charm: Another catch-all removal. This hurts us a little, but it's also at instant speed and eats pretty much everything. We can regain the life lost with Deathrite Shaman. This also doubles as "selective engine" with the retrieving mode, since we can reanimate a Deathrite Shaman if we don't have one or to simply have more "selective engines" while being selective ourselves. Can also save a creature.
- Ultimate Price: This card can answer a lot of common problems: Champion of the Parish, Thragtusk, Restoration Angel, Flinthoof Boar and Snapcaster Mage all fold to this card.
- Grisly Salvage: This card is practically raw card advantage for us. Digs deep for answers, gives us a creature, and ditches card to the graveyard for 2 mana at instant speed, fueling Varolz, Shaman, and Deadbridge Chant.
- Devour Flesh: One of the edicts avaible, lets us control the board after a sweep. It's cheap and the lifegain is no problem for us, we have all the time in the world (unlike aggro).
- Renounce the Guilds: The other edict, this is more narrow, but will more often than not take relevant things that the opponent wouldn't sac to a Devour Flesh.
[Sideboard] - Ray of Revelation: This sideboard card can nail Rest in Peace, Deadbridge Chant in the mirror, Legion's Initiative, and the troublesome Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere. Having Flashback, we can selectively exile it without using Deathrite Shaman.
3 CMC
Creatures:
- Loxodon Smiter: Another beefy creature that can't be countered and gives a neat +4/+4 for 3 mana if we scavenge it from Varolz. If the opponent tries to strike with a Rakdos return, we just can slam him down. It's also very good at stopping blitz decks, and is out of Searing Spear's range for aggro deck. Can 1-for-1 Boros Reckoner, and, all in all, it's one of the best beaters around.
- Vampire Nighthawk: Stalling card that gains us life and can double as an evasive beater in mid-to late game. This can be the target of one scavenge boost to quickly finish the game through the air. Plus, it trades with everything.
- Wolfir Avenger: Exchanges the value that Nighthawk offers for Flash against control decks and as a surprise blockers, and is a lot more tougher against creature decks, as it can regenerate all day long, which makes it an excellent scavenge target.
- Centaur Healer: Good body with good EtB at a reasonable prize. Trades with everything that aggro throws at us, negates one Searing Spear, and probably lures another one. It's EtB can be abused through Deadbridge Chant, and being a low-cost it can be included in MB or SB pretty often, as it doubles as cheap scavenge fodder.
- Predator Ooze: This one's tough to cast, but it's a major roadblock. It's indestructible, so it's the optimal scavenge target, and grows on it's own, but outside being a silly beater, it has practically no value.
Utility:
[Staple] - Lingering Souls: Pretty much a staple in every deck running WB. Gives us bodies to chump block that also can be evasive beaters late game thanks to scavenge, and can be selective itself by exiling it thanks to Flashback. Also, can be ditched to Lily to be casted cheaper or if we lack W.
[Staple] - Liliana of the Veil: Card advantage machine. We don't mind our stuff hitting the graveyard, and at the same time, she devastates the opponent's hand. She can throw an EtB creature for Chant to bring it back, and can throw Souls and eat away opponent's creatures (even Geist of Saint Traft or Aetherling).
- Oblivion Ring: Another catch-all answer, but this tiime at sorcery speed. It removes problematic permanent that can't be removed by conventional ways, and is effective against all of our hate.
- Underworld Connections: Repeated card draw engine, might be a 1-or-2 of to get the upper hand against control.
4 CMC
Creatures:
- Disciple of Bolas: This card has a great EtB effect for us. Gives card advantage, gains life, provides a body for beating, blocking or holding scavenge counters, and it's effect can be reused to generate even more CA thanks to chant. Only downside is that it's cost / power are not exactly great to make him a scavenge target if we need to. It's also a sac outlet.
Utility:
- Liliana of the Dark Realms: Big Lily fetches us lands so we don't dump them into the graveyard unnecessarily and can act as a removal / buffer. His ultimate is a little bit irrelevant, but ramp is ramp.
- Divine Reckoning: Wrath that lets us save our choice, scavenged beater while destroying everything else. The remaining creature can be killed with removal spell. Doubles as a recursive and selective wrath.
- Barter in Blood: This is a mini-wrath that takes out Hexproof creatures, as well as damaging aggro. Sideboard material at best.
- Sorin, Lord of Innistrad: Another 4-mana walker, the vampire buys us precious time by setting tokens (with lifelink no less) alongside Lingering Souls. His emblem is also rarely irrelevant, and multiples can be set up.
5 CMC
Creatures:
- Obzedat, Ghost Council: Big beater that dodges sorcery speed removal, stabilizes against aggro, and is a nightmare to control. It's EtB effect is abusable either on his own or via Chant.
- Wolfir Silverheart: Big beefy creature with EtB effect that can be used to create a huge beater on the swing. His cost / power is not that bad for scavenge uses. Even if it's killed, it will keep coming back with Chant or Aid, so it's a great finisher to keep in mind.
- Acidic Slime: In a multicolor environment, this can hardly lock an opponent's manabase, as well as dealing with troublesome permanents otherwise untouchable for us. Being a EtB effect, it can be abused with Chant, and it also has Deathtouch to trade with everything in it's path.
Utility:
- Garruk, Primal Hunter: Our fifth planeswalker makes the right size tokens (3/3), and his second ability is pretty synergystic with the scavenge mechanic: we will have a lot of card advantage.
- Obzedat's Aid: For the same CMC as Rites of Unburial (and no flashback), we get a selective spell that can further de-randomize Chant by taking what we need right then, and replacing it's grave with himself for further recursion. This goes over Rites because aside from creatures, it can bring us planeswalkers and a destroyed Chant.
X & 5+ CMC
Creatures:
- Griselbrand This demon is a giant flying beatstick like the angel, but it trades recursion for card advantage: At the cost of 7 life, he will draw us an entire hand for feeding Loltroll, or simply for using it.
Utility:
- Killing Wave: Less mana-intensive than Gaze of Granite, and drains life, but also gives the opponent choice on what to sacrifice and what not.
[Staple] - Deadbridge Chant: The backbone of the deck. It has already been explained: Drop it, turn your graveyard into an extension of your hand, then win with recursion. Can be ramped through Shaman to be casted even earlier than turn 6.
Lands:
- Vault of the Archangel: Giving Deathtouch + Lifelink is no joke. We now trade for everything, and our beefy swingers gain us the life lost in the first turns.
4º Decklists
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Loxodon Smiter
3 Thragtusk
2 Disciple of Bolas
1 Angel of Serenity
Instants (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Orzhov Charm
2 Putrefy
Enchantments (3)
3 Deadbridge Chant
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
2 Gaze of Granite
2 Obzedat's Aid
Lands (23)
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Temple Garden
2 Sunpetal Grove
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Grim Backwoods
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Angel of Serenity
2 Centaur Healer
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Divine Reckoning
3 Duress
1 Gaze of Granite
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Disciple of Bolas
1 Angel of Serenity
Planeswalkers (6)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Vraska the Unseen
Enchantments (3)
3 Deadbridge Chant
Sorceries (5)
3 Lingering Souls
2 Obzedat's Aid
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Orzhov Charm
2 Putrefy
Lands (23)
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
2 Temple Garden
2 Sunpetal Grove
1 Grim Backwoods
3 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Centaur Healer
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Gaze of Granite
3 Duress
2 Oblivion Ring
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
URWTwin
XAffinity
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Not sure how you can pitch them to the troll, they aren't creatures.
That was my bad. Still, I think 2 are too few
Updated the OP with the rest of the curve + two decklists
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Other than that, I'm definitely interested in seeing where this goes.
I think if you just took out the Chant and added in other sources of card advantage you'd have a decent variant Rites list (or Junk Midrange/Aggro even). I'm really not liking a major point of the deck being a 6 CMC enchantment that doesn't virtually win you the game when you cast it. That being said... something like Assemble the Legion saw fringe play against control and that was an expensive enchantment... but Assemble had inevitability with it's 1/1 haste creatures. Chant on the other hand essentially is just "at the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card". Sure, you get to put a creature into play if you get one of those, but with 6 lands out you can play any creature you drew off of Underworld Connections anyway.
I see your point there, but Chant is not a draw engine like Underworld Connections is. It's more like a recursion engine, that let's you reuse removal, recur to creatures with EtB effects, and lets you establish a lock when it drops. Underworld Connections play completely different to Chant in the sense that both are different kinds of Card Advantage. You can play the beatdown first with Smiter, Loltroll or Varolz, and then lategame dominate with Deadbridge's recycling engine; while the opponent runs out of resources you keep recycling the ones you want via the selective engines. It's the thing that lets the deck go flexible: you can be the beatdown vs control where you won't want to resolve the enchantment but finish quickly, or you can slow down aggro while taking away their resources till Chant hits the board.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
But... because you are getting back a random card, it's not the most effective recursion engine. Say you play Deadbridge Chant and you have 3 cards in your grave. Putrefy and two other cards (Farseek and DRS we'll say for the sake of argument). Chant puts another 10 cards in your graveyard. We're looking at like a 1/13 chance that that specific Putrefy gets taken. Obviously another removal spell could've been milled in one of the 10 cards, but realize that if you end up "recurring" one of the milled 10 cards, thats effectively the same as just drawing that card from your library.
Admittedly you can up your percentage points with DRS and Varolz removing all non-putrefy cards. But it's not going to be a significant enough increase to justify the extra work. At the end of the day you are just getting 1 extra card a turn (and any creatures come into play for free), at roughly the same percentages as you would if you had drawn a card like normal.
If we're going to really go all in with this idea, you have to go crazy and do something like play/sac Elixer of Immortality or Tormod's Crypt after you chant. And then you can cast Putrefy and keep casting it every turn. Although ironically the first idea is probably more competitive.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
The deck will inherently focus itself to a more Junk Rites list as you push it further into develop ment. I say this because that is where it lead for me before Junk Rites was even a thing and the lists now days are not far off from what I initially had back around October and November.
For a Rock strategy I would just stick with BG, the reanimation from Rise from the Grave will let you just outright roll over an unsuspecting Rites player while giving you extra bodies with Thragtusks and such. The white just does not really seem that necessary.
A few things, is Chant worth just 2 slots and use the other slot for AoS, having 1 angel seems really odd.
Is gyre sage actually good in this deck, it can go on the offensive plan since most of the creatures will evolve it and it accelerates fairly well for chant/tusk/varolz shennigans.
Is splitting Ozbedat's aid and unburial rites worth it? since aid is more for when the chant is already online the way i see it or as a value spell in the midgame.
Why no Hoof as a 1 of, i guess im seeing a lot of late game potential and just throwing in 1 hoof doesn't even seem like the worst idea ever and having the deck have the lategame of reanimator while having a nicer blend of ways it can win the game seems nice.
Last one, Is Debt to the Deathless worth it as a 1 of, a double fireball to the dome with lifegain is probably pretty good at randomly finishing the game and it works decently well with chant.
But yeah the deck does look a lot like reanimator at this point idk if there is a way around that or if that is actually the direction it wants to go or something completely different.
There are ways to make it less random, but if all you are doing is turning it from 20% to 30% odds (with Scavenge/DRS), we're doing too much work and not getting that much advantage over just drawing an extra card to make it not worth running over something like Underworld Connections. Elixer of Immortality will set up potential 100% odds you get the card you want. Regrow effects double your odds as well. But playing those cards means you are playing less Thragtusks and removal spells. So there is a balance.
Cremate does a lot of things better than Crypt Incursion[/card]. First off, it replaces itself with a new card, which will always be at least someone useful. Lifegain is just not worth much in control matchups. On top of that, Cremate can also shut off Snapcaster Mage triggers. You just exile the card they target in response to the trigger, before they gain the ability to flash it back. And if that wasn't enough, it helps you prune unwanted cards from your graveyard once you play Deadbridge Chant, as the returns are random. This card can be excessively powerful when you have the ability to prune your graveyard down to only triggers you want.
is cremate necessary considering we already have DRS?
Ben Delat, i remember you from your extensive testing a few standard formats back with MBC, i enjoy your list. I like it much more than the opening list even though its different. Yours is more "Rock" imo, and am interested in seeing where you go with it. Was planning on developing Dega control this standard season but will definitely dip into this G/B you have shown.
On a side note: I don't feel as if white is necessary, but I do like lotleth troll
Also I think it is pretty obvious that we need green and black but is it worth splashing a color like white or even blue? and for what cards?
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 Desecration Demon
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
2 Thragtusk
Spells:18
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Grisly Salvage
3 Sign in Blood
2 Putrefy
3 Mutilate
2 Deadbridge Chant
2 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
11 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Devour Flesh
3 Gloom Surgeon
2 Golgari Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Underworld Connections
2 Thragtusk
EDIT: NVM red. its not worth the splash for jund when u can just make a jund deck with olivia and not worry about the inconsistencies.
[strikethrough]I think sire of insanity plays well with deadbridge chant, but maybe what I have is too cute. After more thought, varolz is much stronger than I thought and obvious interactions with stuff like vexing devil is there, but I want less of the cute stuff and more of the quality stuff.[/strikethrough] One thing i don't like about my list is grisly salvage with deadbridge chant, but that is why DRS is there to filter our yard. I'm also worried about salvaging and throwing away my enchantment in the graveyard. wondering if main decking something like treasured find is even worth the risk? possibly going 3/3 split between sign in blood and salvage may be better overall.
Also, I like ben's list because its very straight forward, but in testing, if i dont have early removal playing a turn 3 geralf's just isn't enough against aggro. it can't block etc. anyway. this is what i want to use for initial testing.
color wise, i feel like the best tertiary option is white followed by red and then blue.
Anyway for a bit of a backstory - I posted on the Mostly Black Control thread not so long ago:
The latest pre-Gatecrash deck I came up with was:
1 Staff of Nin
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Olivia Voldaren
1 Bloodline Keeper
1 Desecration Demon
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dreadbore
2 Victim of Night
2 Tragic Slip
1 Mutilate
1 Rolling Temblor
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Sign in Blood
1 Dragonskull Summit
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Mountain
4 Overgrown Tomb
11 Swamp
1 Pithing Needle
2 Dead Weight
1 Underworld Connections
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Mutilate
1 Victim of Night
4 Duress
3 Slaughter Games
I like Ben's list - having creatures that survive post-Mutilate (Beast token and Geralf's Messenger) just puts your opponent in such a difficult position - he has to commit creatures to block, but he can't overcommit for fear of Mutilate.
Before I go on - I just want to talk about Deadbridge Chant - I'm not convinced. Staff of Nin is almost strictly better - card advantage and damage to the head/dorks.
So I've been looking at the deck and trying to find ways of refining it.
One of the things I didn't like was Rakdos Keyrune - I didn't need the ramp (although the mana fix was always appreciated) and there are many better things I can do on turn 3 (Liliana of the Veil and Vampire Nighthawk). Also since I wanted to go more Aggro in the Aggro-control - I'm thinking of dropping the Staff of Nin.
My big issue is my 2 drop creature spot - I want a creature that impacts the board (Ravenous Rats is really looking like an option...) but has some sort of power (a 1/1 doesn't seem to cut, also Loxodon Smiter). Gloom Surgeon is great against aggro, but does it help in the race against control? Knight of Infamy also seems like a good option. Where I'm at is to run 2 of each them - with the Knights in the board. Although I'm open to suggestions from the board (key note: it must be castable with just black mana).
Here's where I'm at at the moment:
2 Gloom Surgeon
2 Ravenous Rats
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Desecration Demon
2 Olivia Voldaren
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dreadbore
4 Sign in Blood
2 Victim of Night
1 Rolling Temblor
1 Mutliate
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Forest
1 Mountain
9 Swamp
From a sideboard perspective, I'd want 3 Slaughter Games as a start and would think along these lines:
vs Aggro
out: 2 Rakdos's Return, 1 Chandra, the Firebrand, 1 Sign in Blood, 2 Ravenous Rats, 1 Duress
in: 1 Mutilate, 1 Blasphemous Act (would be Mutilate if I had a 3rd...), 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Tragic Slip, 1 Tribute to Hunger, 2 Dead Weight
vs Esper
out: 2 Tragic Slip, 2 Victim of Night, 1 Mutilate, 1 Rolling Temblor, 2 Gloom Surgeon
in: 3 Duress, 3 Slaughter Games, 2 Knight of Infamy
(I could contemplate dropping a Vampire Nighthawk for a Pithing Needle here)
vs UWR Flash
out: 2 Gloom Surgeon, 1 Mutilate, 1 Rolling Temblor, 1 Chandra, the Firebrand, 2 Tragic Slip, 2 Abrupt Decay
in: 2 Knight of Infamy, 3 Slaughter Games, 3 Duress, 1 Liliana of the Veil
vs Jund
out: 2 Victim of Night, 2 Tragic Slip, 1 Rolling Temblor, 1 Chandra, the Firebrand, 2 Gloom Surgeon
in: 3 Duress, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Mutilate, 3 Slaughter Games
vs Naya Midrange
out: 2 Gloom Surgeon, 2 Ravenous Rats, 1 Chandra, the Firebrand, 2 Rakdos's Return
in: 2 Knight of Infamy, 2 Dead Weight, 1 Mutilate, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Pithing Needle
As far as I can tell, that's 13 sideboard slots. Willing to take ideas on the last 2 - perhaps 2 Curse of Death's Hold for Aristocrats and Token decks?
Hence I only splash the green and red - Mutilate is pretty much our biggest draw and you have to build around it if you're going to run it.
If you're running Cremate this makes sense, what about Altar's Reap - can be cast in response to a creature dying.
Ye, I forgot the reanimate clause, my bad. To be honest, I'm still against it because its 6CMC and I think you want to be a bit more aggressive here.
Where would you put it in my list? The minute it was spoiled I liked it, I guess my Deathrites are doing a lot of the job Cremate is doing, so probably not as necessary in my list.
True, it does whiff against Zombies and Huntmaster though. And they are relevant - so I wouldn't want to go to hard into them.
I think you're ok - you only really have 2 Abrupt Decay you want to cast on turn 2, Putrefy is turn 3, Rot-farm turn 4, and Thragtusk and Vraska are turn 5. All only require 1 green source - so 10 is perfectly fine.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 Desecration Demon
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
2 Thragtusk
Spells:17
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Farseek
3 Sign in Blood
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Putrefy
2 Deadbridge Chant
3 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
10 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Devour Flesh
3 Gloom Surgeon
2 Golgari Charm
1 Underworld Connections
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Thragtusk
Good point I really like varolz.
I did some testing and he was an all star, making full use of my mana and beating my opponents in the red zone.
However I do feel that building your deck this way could also weaken the power of deadbridge chant, because bye doing this your very much playing the aggressor and chant is a soft lock allowing you to recur removal and get free creatures into play. Playing lots of weenies like shaman and troll ( I am only calling them weenies because they are < 3 cmc) makes a free creature via chant so much less exciting.
However on the other side playing chant with varolz in play is huge, because you just created a bunch of new targets for his ability, this also may be putting all your eggs in one basket though if your opponent has removal.
Honestly everything I just said is irrelevant though until I do some playtesting soo........... we will find out eventually lmao
I have gone undefeated with my list so far but I've only played 8 or so total games. I've challenged Naya humans, some really weird Azorius humans build that was very creative, junk tokens (this was pretty difficult, i may want sever if it becomes a real thing), and junk reanimator.
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 Desecration Demon
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
2 Thragtusk
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Farseek
3 Sign in Blood
2 Putrefy
2 Deadbridge Chant
3 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
10 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
I was skeptical about having nighthawk in the side. I wanted him main for the lifegain, but in hindsight, I could always just play crypt incursion or something. Life gain is only necessary against hyper aggressive decks imo, and crypt incursion also acts as graveyard removal against frites. Also, loved the itneractions between varolz, lotleth and desecration demon.
Lastly, rot farm skeleton in the games i did pull him was awesome. I"m not sure if i want more than one simply because its not like I'm getting deadbridge chant online that often, however, filling the graveyard to scavenge my threats is very powerful.
i kind of want a 24th land, but list seems ok so far. Farseek is necessary because of this for me.