As much as I hated eggs, I am surprisingly onboard with this plan. Probably something about using 'harmless' commons (which is what got me into Living End), but that's a different story.
All I've done is goldfish on Cockatrice, but I've had rather decent results (in terms of speed, and assuming no interruption, of course)
As for the deck name, got creative and read KCI's flavor text "All the junk, refuse, and offal of the Krark Clan is melted down and turned into more junk, refuse, and offal.", got a laugh, and since we're recurring everything over and over again, made it similar to "Ashes to Ashes, and Dust to Dust"
This list was originally taken from the "Breakfast at Urza's" thread, but it is slightly different from the other "Neo-Eggs" decks. First off is the manabase. It contains neither Tron nor the "classic" lands such as fetches or Ghost Quarter. Instead, it plays all Plains save for a set of Darksteel Citadel. The Citadel is the only artifact land legal in Modern, so I run it to feed the engine for extra mana.
As with many of the new Eggs decks, the main engine here is Krark-Clan Ironworks. While Cloud Key and others definitely help the gameplan, the Ironworks is absolutely required before trying to combo off for the win.
I have also decided to go mono-W, as the only restriction is the requirement for the Sunrise effects. By the time I'm going off and getting ready to win, the filtering coming from Chromatic Star, Chromatic Sphere and Prophetic Prism is enough to give me proper mana colors.
Speaking of winning the game, how? Well, the obvious choice for what to do with giant amounts of mana is Emrakul, so I don't think I need to go in-depth for that one. My other game-winner of choice is Exsanguinate. The big upsides to this one is that it is non-targeting (meaning it goes through Leyline of Sanctity) and life loss (meaning it goes through protection and damage prevention). It requires an investment of at most 20-25 mana (which is not hard once this deck gets going), unless we're playing the occasional mono-white life deck. And that's where the silver bullet comes in. The singleton Codex Shredder allows you to go literally infinite with Faith's Reward, provided you have three eggs that you can feed to the Ironworks without drawing cards (so as not to deck yourself out).
I have not gotten around to building a sideboard or playtesting with this build yet, but I am definitely open for suggestions.
EDIT1: After reading up some more on ideas from other threads, I've decided to give Etherium Sculptor a shot over Cloud Key in the role of the "cost-reducer" due to its ability to drop a turn-3 Ironworks, and it's worked rather well thus far. Will do a more thorough update sometime over the weekend.
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I only just found this through your sig. I think this is the most viable post-ban eggs list I've seen (but that's not from an eggs player). How consistently do you hit the Ironworks?
Including the singleton Codex Shredder is brilliant; I never would have come up with that. I fear it might be redundant though because if you have the resources to cycle through your whole library to find it, do you need the infinite loop?
Also, replace Exanguinate with the new Debt to the Deathless. It's harder on colors, but you run almost all plains anyways and a 14 mana kill is easier than a 22 kill.
Does Noxious Revival have a home here?
Why do you prefer Plains to Tron?
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I only just found this through your sig. I think this is the most viable post-ban eggs list I've seen (but that's not from an eggs player).
First of all, thank you for noticing, finding, and the compliments. Really. Good to see some of my original variations are valid, unlike my horrid from-scratch decks >_>
Addressing in order,
How consistently do you hit the Ironworks?
Unfortunately, that is the one caveat of the deck. You really need the KCI to do anything, else you just flop around and do nothing. The upside, however, is that unlike the old eggs build where you pretty much NEED to do everything in the span of a single turn, this deck runs Open the Vaults (which returns everything, not just this turn), meaning that, if I save several draw-eggs for the "big" turn with the Sunrise I am very comfortable with cracking some eggs early, allowing me to dig for the Ironworks.
As for once I hit the Ironworks, I don't think I've ever fizzled after dropping a turn4 Ironworks - granted, this was goldfishing with no disruption to check for consistency and whatnot, so it appears that getting the Ironworks in time is the limiting factor here.
Including the singleton Codex Shredder is brilliant; I never would have come up with that. I fear it might be redundant though because if you have the resources to cycle through your whole library to find it, do you need the infinite loop?
Again, thank you for the kind words. The Codex Shredder is primarily there as a fallback - if playing slower control decks, it can help get me back in the game by recovering Sunrise and KCI. The main reason is that it's there to ensure that I can get the sacred "infinite mana", without too many slots to take away from the rest of the deck. If I Faith's Reward for 4-5 artifacts the first time around and somehow don't draw into another Sunrise, the Shredder helps. Just as a fallback, in case something goes awry, or I'm not making enough mana (such as working through Thalia or other taxes of some sort).
Also, replace Exanguinate with the new Debt to the Deathless. It's harder on colors, but you run almost all plains anyways and a 14 mana kill is easier than a 22 kill.
That is definitely an option. My one preference for Exsanguinate is that if I'm trying to go off turn 4 right after resolving an Ironworks, I probably have no untapped lands, and BB is easier to fix for than WWBB. Not to mention that if I'm snowballing enough to make 14 mana, with 4 of it colorfixed on top of the white required for the Sunrises, 22 with only 2 fixed is generally not an issue. But to be perfectly honest, I think they're about equal in terms of viability. If you're already going off you're just as likely to land lethal with one as the other, and in a pinch for emergency life, Exsanguinate is only better at X<5, at which point you either should have drawn and played your Ironworks and attempted to have gone off (and been stopped apparently) or your grabbing onto the last few points of life - in both cases, you're likely to lose regardless.
Does Noxious Revival have a home here?
It can, at the cost of something like Elsewhere Flask, I suppose. My main concern with it is that KCI requires a critical mass of artifacts to start going off, unlike the old Eggs which got all of its mana from Lotus Blooms and Ghost Quarters (none of which are in here) and the Revival takes away from the artifact count. I guess I'm just afraid of it being a dead card in hand early on, and with OtV bringing back EVERYTHING I've sacrificed even before the combo turn, I'm not sure Revival is required. It also helps the opponent in any matchup that involves Red with burn.
Why do you prefer Plains to Tron?
While some people adore the Tron build and swear by it all day long, there are several properties of the Tron decks that I feel do not necessarily make it ideal in this deck.
For one, Tron decks are (generally) not "combo" decks per se. They get multiple turns to try and assemble their Tron, which is not what this deck tries to do. How do they assemble Tron? All Tron variants include Expedition Map, with RG utilizing Ancient Stirrings, and UX using Thirst for Knowledge, Condescend, Repeal, Gifts to dig for them. Of those, the only one that even warrants a second glance is Expedition Map, and that's just because it doesn't mess up the deck (with the others requiring additional mana input, using precious colored mana, not coming back with Sunrises, and potentially wasting important draw triggers off the eggs). And even Expedition Map itself only sacrifices for mana with KCI or requires mana to grab a land - without KCI and 2 Tron pieces it is pretty dead. Not to mention that it doesn't do anything other eggs can't do - everything else draws cards, or fixes mana, or has some other utility function in addition to just being able to provide 2 mana and little else.
Without support, I'm afraid Tron becomes too inconsistent to try and account for. In a deck that generally doesn't want more than 6 -7 land drops over the course of the game, having a set of lands that are worse than basics unless you assemble that specific set seem iffy to me.
Why plains? Because as mentioned before, this deck doesn't like auto-scooping if it doesn't open with KCI, and tries to fight by cracking eggs early. If, for whatever reason, I have extra land mana when I start going off (late KCI, for example, or not having critical mass of artifacts), having it already be white helps because (A) artifacts themselves don't really care, and (B) it does not force me to keep a mana-fixer to start the combo and permits going off with just Flasks and Wellsprings and Baubles or what have you.
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That is a valid option, however, the Disciple decreases the artifact count. What would you remove for them?
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Instead of Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless, why not use Banefire? Easily castable off Chromatic/Prismatic and uncounterable, plus costs 1-3 less to use. Chances are pretty slim that draw and then want to use Exsanguinate or DttD for the lifegain alone before you're ready to just win.
Mox Opal - Does this have a place in this deck? Especially with the changes to the Legendary rule?
Lotus Bloom - Does this have a place in this deck? Coming in on turn 4 and giving us the ability to tap 1 land for a KCI while still having 2-3 mana available to combo off with seems pretty strong.
Instead of Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless, why not use Banefire? Easily castable off Chromatic/Prismatic and uncounterable, plus costs 1-3 less to use. Chances are pretty slim that draw and then want to use Exsanguinate or DttD for the lifegain alone before you're ready to just win.
Mox Opal - Does this have a place in this deck? Especially with the changes to the Legendary rule?
Lotus Bloom - Does this have a place in this deck? Coming in on turn 4 and giving us the ability to tap 1 land for a KCI while still having 2-3 mana available to combo off with seems pretty strong.
Mox Opal and the Bloom were primarily not in for budget reasons, but if I were to try and come up with practical reasons as to why theyre not in and why im not even testing them is that the Opal only taps for mana (as opposed to pretty much every other artifact having two effects), and the Lotus I cant cast if I draw it, and is only really good suspending turn 1/2, as well as also only tapping for mana. While they do slightly accelerate the deck, they take away from the drwing eggs, and thus consistency in a way, and increase chances of fizzling. Im not sure I like them for those reasons. Also Opals are like $30 which is literally slightly less than what I paid for the rest of the deck
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I hadn't considered that Exsanguinate gets around Leyline - good point
Budgetary wise, I'm not too concerned about cost of deck if it means making the deck much better... though I can see why it would be a concern for some players since this deck is VERY inexpensive.
Mox Opal is probably worth testing as a 3 or 4 of (probably in place of a couple Prismatic and Terrarion imo)
Lotus Bloom I can see not running, but figured I'd ask. Might be worth testing, still.
How about replacing some of the Plains for Horizon Canopy. It will add more draw capability to the deck and they only get better when you play Faith's Reward.
Budgetary wise, I'm not too concerned about cost of deck if it means making the deck much better... though I can see why it would be a concern for some players since this deck is VERY inexpensive.
Mox Opal is probably worth testing as a 3 or 4 of (probably in place of a couple Prismatic and Terrarion imo)
Yeah, just checked the price , and the Opals are 35$ apiece. I got the deck minus the Citadels and Emrakul for about ~37. Absolutely ridiculous.
Speaking of the Opal, another reason why I'm not sure whether I like it is that each artifact (except the Sculptor) allows me to dig for Krark-Clan Ironworks if I don't have it in my opening hand. This is a rather significant feature that separates this build from the old Eggs - the old Eggs had to pretty much start from scratch if it ever fizzled or was interrupted mid-combo, while this version can crack some Eggs early on, and still get them back with Open the Vaults. Additionally, the deck's only 'free' artifacts are Darksteel Citadel - unlike Affinity/Robots which can use the Mox on the first turn, it is very possible that turn 1 will only yield a Mox and 1 Egg, only allowing the use of the Mox on the next turn. This also is not necessarily a deck that seeks to throw its hand out on the first couple of turns - yes, it accelerates into a potential turn 3 Ironworks, but I feel it would take away from the consistency if I replaced any of the drawing/fixing Eggs with Opals. The one slot that fulfills a similar role is Etherium Sculptor, and the Opal would definitely be easier on the mana for acceleration - but the Sculptor outpaces the Opal by far mid-combo, allowing us to cast around half our Eggs for free, and two of them allow casting ALL our Eggs for free.
In short, it's definitely worth testing, but I do not feel the 100-130$ tag on 3-4 copies of them is worth it, when it comes to sacrificing consistency - especially when we have a similar enabler in Etherium Sculptor. For what it's worth, with the amount of mana-fixing Eggs in the deck, 99% of the time, the reason I am unable to cast a turn 2 Sculptor is just because I am not holding one. If I go turn 1 land, Star/Sphere/Terrarion, turn 2 I generally crack the Egg for blue mana - if I have a second land but no Sculptor I can hope to draw into one, if I'm holding a Sculptor but no land I can hope draw into one and still drop Sculptor, or if neither happens, then my turn 2-3 plays are all artifacts so colored mana doesn't really matter.
How about replacing some of the Plains for Horizon Canopy. It will add more draw capability to the deck and they only get better when you play Faith's Reward.
The one thing I do not enjoy about Horizon Canopy is that hoping to sac it for effect means that I'm not going off turn 4. It also feels win-more: if I'm comboing, then I'm already drawing a ton, whereas if I'm digging for KCI, then I lose a land (which I probably need, and cannot get back by Opening the Vaults).
These are all valid and great suggestions that merit testing though. I definitely do not have the experience with the deck to say objectively how good something is, but I am only speaking out of theory and the little experience that I do have from piloting. If you test and see otherwise, please do let me know, knowing possible alternatives always helps!
Thanks again for the opinions and thoughts guys. Even though I may disagree, it still makes me think critically about the components of the deck and helps me understand and learn the deck better. Y'all are awesome
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You could combo Horizon Canopy with Ghost Quarter and if you have Etherium Sculptor in the battlefield, still be able to combo off and get the Canopy back with Rewards.
You could combo Horizon Canopy with Ghost Quarter and if you have Etherium Sculptor in the battlefield, still be able to combo off and get the Canopy back with Rewards.
Right, except again, not using it for mana pushes the combo back a turn -the inclusion of Gjost Quarter still pushes it back since one of those needs to be untapped. Not to mwntion that the Canopy and Quarter don't come back off Open the Vaults :/
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I've been goldfishing the deck and have seen it be consistent on turn 4 if you draw a KCI. If not, well - probably should mulligan better slightly kidding...
However, the deck is pretty heavily dependant on getting a KCI, to the point of mulliganing hands that don't have KCI or a Faith's Reward and 3-4 cantrip eggs.
With that in mind, and not looking at sticking to a low budget decklist, I've revamped the list to as follows
Mox Opal: Absolutely fantastic. The new legend rule makes this card bonkers. 4 might be right, but unsure of what to cut. Might be Emrakul.
Thoughtcast and Thirst for Knowledge (TfK) : Thoughtcast is really nice pre-combo on turn 3 or 4 to be able to try to draw KCI or your Faiths/Opens. TfK is fantastic both pre and post combo. You can discard 2 artifacts if you wanna, so feel free to discard any extra KCI's or Etherium Sculptors you've drawn and they'll come back off an Open the Vault. (they will not come back off Faith's Reward)
Emrakul: Sometimes you just draw a bunch of 'Eggs' and a KCI and you can go off, but you're facing down an open Relic or somesuch - well 15 mana later, you're probably not gonna care. 15 mana is also a lot easier to reach when every you draw Mox Opal makes 3 mana :-D
Glacial Fortress: Necessary for Thoughtcast and TfK. Only rarely will it be an issue coming into play tapped since unless your hand is all Glacial Fortress and Darksteel Citadels, it's a Tundra as soon as you drop a Plains.
No Terrarion: The color is not a problem thanks to Mox Opals, the 2cc and ETB tapped is less than pleasant often enough to not wanna play it.
Sideboard - very rough sketch, but basically you're going to want Silence for all the control matchups, Holy Day for all the aggro matchups, Leyline for any deck running discard or Slaughter Games + it also is fine for Scapeshift, Storm, and Burn decks. Disenchant and Echoing Truths are there to help against Twin, Pod, Tron, and about 95% of the anti artifact / anti combo hate cards (Stony Silence, Blind Obedience, Damping Matrix, Relic of Progenitus, etc. )
I encourage you guys to try this build, give it a dozen or two games and see how it feels.
I've been goldfishing the deck and have seen it be consistent on turn 4 if you draw a KCI. If not, well - probably should mulligan better slightly kidding...
However, the deck is pretty heavily dependant on getting a KCI, to the point of mulliganing hands that don't have KCI or a Faith's Reward and 3-4 cantrip eggs.
With that in mind, and not looking at sticking to a low budget decklist, I've revamped the list to as follows
Mox Opal: Absolutely fantastic. The new legend rule makes this card bonkers. 4 might be right, but unsure of what to cut. Might be Emrakul.
Thoughtcast and Thirst for Knowledge (TfK) : Thoughtcast is really nice pre-combo on turn 3 or 4 to be able to try to draw KCI or your Faiths/Opens. TfK is fantastic both pre and post combo. You can discard 2 artifacts if you wanna, so feel free to discard any extra KCI's or Etherium Sculptors you've drawn and they'll come back off an Open the Vault. (they will not come back off Faith's Reward)
Emrakul: Sometimes you just draw a bunch of 'Eggs' and a KCI and you can go off, but you're facing down an open Relic or somesuch - well 15 mana later, you're probably not gonna care. 15 mana is also a lot easier to reach when every you draw Mox Opal makes 3 mana :-D
Glacial Fortress: Necessary for Thoughtcast and TfK. Only rarely will it be an issue coming into play tapped since unless your hand is all Glacial Fortress and Darksteel Citadels, it's a Tundra as soon as you drop a Plains.
No Terrarion: The color is not a problem thanks to Mox Opals, the 2cc and ETB tapped is less than pleasant often enough to not wanna play it.
Sideboard - very rough sketch, but basically you're going to want Silence for all the control matchups, Holy Day for all the aggro matchups, Leyline for any deck running discard or Slaughter Games + it also is fine for Scapeshift, Storm, and Burn decks. Disenchant and Echoing Truths are there to help against Twin, Pod, Tron, and about 95% of the anti artifact / anti combo hate cards (Stony Silence, Blind Obedience, Damping Matrix, Relic of Progenitus, etc. )
I encourage you guys to try this build, give it a dozen or two games and see how it feels.
Thanks for the update! Glad to see someone else testing this build haha
After I'm done posting this, I will update OP with a 'budget' and 'non-budget' decklist section.
Re: your results
Mox Opal - glad to see it's been working out for you! While I doubt I'll be getting my hands on any in the near future due to its silly pricetag, it's good to see it's a good option for those who can. I'd be wary of cutting Emrakul for an Opal, though, because without him you only have the one Exsanguinate as a wincon. You're also not running Codex Shredder either, so you will not be able to get a second shot if the Exsanguinate eats a counterspell. If you do decide to cut Emrakul, I would suggest making room for a single Codex Shredder for the chance to return Exsanguinate, as well as the ability to get you out of a pinch and go (nearly) infinite with enough non-drawing Eggs, with optional Pyrite Spellbomb/Grapeshot.
Draw spells: I was actually also considering the use of Thoughtcast in the deck as early-turn card draw to dig for KCI or more eggs, while Thirst for Knowledge kinda slipped my mind. In hindsight it might be the better choice - sure, you lose an Egg, but it digs one deeper and is castable (given a blue source) on turn 3 without forcing us to keep Eggs around for affinity. I'll be trying it out when I get home from work tonight, and I'll post my slightly updated list as well.
Emrakul: Agreed. He's the finisher of choice for decks that make big mana for a reason.
Glacial Fortress: Sure, I can buy that. I'm not sure if a full set is optimal with the number of Plains we run, but that can be tweaked.
No Terrarion: That is the one thing on the list I will have to respectfully disagree with. It still costs one mana, so it can drop on the first turn or for free with a single Sculptor, and it draws a card on death and not on activation, which in a way negates the fact that it comes into play tapped. I would actually almost cut Elsewhere Flask before this one.
Now as for the Sideboard, that is definitely something this deck needs work with. I agree on the inclusion of all of these, except I'd replace Holy Day with Ethereal Haze - since we're only running so many Fog effects, the Haze covers ability damage as well. Also, another option could be Sunbeam Spellbomb - saves us in a pinch (against Burn, as well!) or, it can draw cards for us mid-combo.
EDIT: Another possible option is to replace the 'Draw' spells with Fabricate - to ensure grabbing the KCI no matter what.
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Draw spells: I was actually also considering the use of Thoughtcast in the deck as early-turn card draw to dig for KCI or more eggs, while Thirst for Knowledge kinda slipped my mind. In hindsight it might be the better choice - sure, you lose an Egg, but it digs one deeper and is castable (given a blue source) on turn 3 without forcing us to keep Eggs around for affinity. I'll be trying it out when I get home from work tonight, and I'll post my slightly updated list as well.
EDIT: Another possible option is to replace the 'Draw' spells with Fabricate - to ensure grabbing the KCI no matter what.
I found the land to be too little, wanted to include the 4th Opal, and didn't want to cut the Emrakul... so I dropped Thirst for Knowledge. Also tinkered with mana base slightly to include Ghost Quarters, since it's nice to be able to use them to fix mana as needed and to help ramp and build mana during comboing off.
Heya! So my playgroup might be running a Modern tournament sometime in the next few weeks, and I'd like to play this to surprise everyone, so I was hoping I could some help with a sideboard for this.
Here's a meta 'breakdown' as far as I know:
Guy A runs UR Twin
Guy B runs UR Fae (main) and Boros Deck Wins (side)
Guy C runs UWR Control
Guy D runs 4-color Gifts
Guy E runs Pod
Guy F runs Ur Merfolk
I can't remember if I've modified the list since my last post, but I will confirm later today or tomorrow.
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All I've done is goldfish on Cockatrice, but I've had rather decent results (in terms of speed, and assuming no interruption, of course)
As for the deck name, got creative and read KCI's flavor text "All the junk, refuse, and offal of the Krark Clan is melted down and turned into more junk, refuse, and offal.", got a laugh, and since we're recurring everything over and over again, made it similar to "Ashes to Ashes, and Dust to Dust"
4 Darksteel Citadel
13 Plains
Artifact: 34
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Prophetic Prism
3 Elsewhere Flask
3 Conjurer's Bauble
3 Terrarion
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Codex Shredder
Instant:
4 Faith's Reward
Sorcery:
3 Open the Vaults
1 Exsanguinate
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
3 Prophetic Prism
3 Elsewhere Flask
3 Mox Opal
2 Conjurer's Bauble
Instant (7)
4 Faith's Reward
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Thoughtcast
2 Open the Vaults
1 Exsanguinate
Creature (5)
4 Etherium Sculptor
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Land (15)
8 Plains
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Disenchant
3 Holy Day
3 Silence
2 Echoing Truth
This list was originally taken from the "Breakfast at Urza's" thread, but it is slightly different from the other "Neo-Eggs" decks. First off is the manabase. It contains neither Tron nor the "classic" lands such as fetches or Ghost Quarter. Instead, it plays all Plains save for a set of Darksteel Citadel. The Citadel is the only artifact land legal in Modern, so I run it to feed the engine for extra mana.
As with many of the new Eggs decks, the main engine here is Krark-Clan Ironworks. While Cloud Key and others definitely help the gameplan, the Ironworks is absolutely required before trying to combo off for the win.
I have also decided to go mono-W, as the only restriction is the requirement for the Sunrise effects. By the time I'm going off and getting ready to win, the filtering coming from Chromatic Star, Chromatic Sphere and Prophetic Prism is enough to give me proper mana colors.
Speaking of winning the game, how? Well, the obvious choice for what to do with giant amounts of mana is Emrakul, so I don't think I need to go in-depth for that one. My other game-winner of choice is Exsanguinate. The big upsides to this one is that it is non-targeting (meaning it goes through Leyline of Sanctity) and life loss (meaning it goes through protection and damage prevention). It requires an investment of at most 20-25 mana (which is not hard once this deck gets going), unless we're playing the occasional mono-white life deck. And that's where the silver bullet comes in. The singleton Codex Shredder allows you to go literally infinite with Faith's Reward, provided you have three eggs that you can feed to the Ironworks without drawing cards (so as not to deck yourself out).
I have not gotten around to building a sideboard or playtesting with this build yet, but I am definitely open for suggestions.
EDIT1: After reading up some more on ideas from other threads, I've decided to give Etherium Sculptor a shot over Cloud Key in the role of the "cost-reducer" due to its ability to drop a turn-3 Ironworks, and it's worked rather well thus far. Will do a more thorough update sometime over the weekend.
xMage: Jankmaster
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Including the singleton Codex Shredder is brilliant; I never would have come up with that. I fear it might be redundant though because if you have the resources to cycle through your whole library to find it, do you need the infinite loop?
Also, replace Exanguinate with the new Debt to the Deathless. It's harder on colors, but you run almost all plains anyways and a 14 mana kill is easier than a 22 kill.
Does Noxious Revival have a home here?
Why do you prefer Plains to Tron?
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
First of all, thank you for noticing, finding, and the compliments. Really. Good to see some of my original variations are valid, unlike my horrid from-scratch decks >_>
Addressing in order,
Unfortunately, that is the one caveat of the deck. You really need the KCI to do anything, else you just flop around and do nothing. The upside, however, is that unlike the old eggs build where you pretty much NEED to do everything in the span of a single turn, this deck runs Open the Vaults (which returns everything, not just this turn), meaning that, if I save several draw-eggs for the "big" turn with the Sunrise I am very comfortable with cracking some eggs early, allowing me to dig for the Ironworks.
As for once I hit the Ironworks, I don't think I've ever fizzled after dropping a turn4 Ironworks - granted, this was goldfishing with no disruption to check for consistency and whatnot, so it appears that getting the Ironworks in time is the limiting factor here.
Again, thank you for the kind words. The Codex Shredder is primarily there as a fallback - if playing slower control decks, it can help get me back in the game by recovering Sunrise and KCI. The main reason is that it's there to ensure that I can get the sacred "infinite mana", without too many slots to take away from the rest of the deck. If I Faith's Reward for 4-5 artifacts the first time around and somehow don't draw into another Sunrise, the Shredder helps. Just as a fallback, in case something goes awry, or I'm not making enough mana (such as working through Thalia or other taxes of some sort).
That is definitely an option. My one preference for Exsanguinate is that if I'm trying to go off turn 4 right after resolving an Ironworks, I probably have no untapped lands, and BB is easier to fix for than WWBB. Not to mention that if I'm snowballing enough to make 14 mana, with 4 of it colorfixed on top of the white required for the Sunrises, 22 with only 2 fixed is generally not an issue. But to be perfectly honest, I think they're about equal in terms of viability. If you're already going off you're just as likely to land lethal with one as the other, and in a pinch for emergency life, Exsanguinate is only better at X<5, at which point you either should have drawn and played your Ironworks and attempted to have gone off (and been stopped apparently) or your grabbing onto the last few points of life - in both cases, you're likely to lose regardless.
It can, at the cost of something like Elsewhere Flask, I suppose. My main concern with it is that KCI requires a critical mass of artifacts to start going off, unlike the old Eggs which got all of its mana from Lotus Blooms and Ghost Quarters (none of which are in here) and the Revival takes away from the artifact count. I guess I'm just afraid of it being a dead card in hand early on, and with OtV bringing back EVERYTHING I've sacrificed even before the combo turn, I'm not sure Revival is required. It also helps the opponent in any matchup that involves Red with burn.
While some people adore the Tron build and swear by it all day long, there are several properties of the Tron decks that I feel do not necessarily make it ideal in this deck.
For one, Tron decks are (generally) not "combo" decks per se. They get multiple turns to try and assemble their Tron, which is not what this deck tries to do. How do they assemble Tron? All Tron variants include Expedition Map, with RG utilizing Ancient Stirrings, and UX using Thirst for Knowledge, Condescend, Repeal, Gifts to dig for them. Of those, the only one that even warrants a second glance is Expedition Map, and that's just because it doesn't mess up the deck (with the others requiring additional mana input, using precious colored mana, not coming back with Sunrises, and potentially wasting important draw triggers off the eggs). And even Expedition Map itself only sacrifices for mana with KCI or requires mana to grab a land - without KCI and 2 Tron pieces it is pretty dead. Not to mention that it doesn't do anything other eggs can't do - everything else draws cards, or fixes mana, or has some other utility function in addition to just being able to provide 2 mana and little else.
Without support, I'm afraid Tron becomes too inconsistent to try and account for. In a deck that generally doesn't want more than 6 -7 land drops over the course of the game, having a set of lands that are worse than basics unless you assemble that specific set seem iffy to me.
Why plains? Because as mentioned before, this deck doesn't like auto-scooping if it doesn't open with KCI, and tries to fight by cracking eggs early. If, for whatever reason, I have extra land mana when I start going off (late KCI, for example, or not having critical mass of artifacts), having it already be white helps because (A) artifacts themselves don't really care, and (B) it does not force me to keep a mana-fixer to start the combo and permits going off with just Flasks and Wellsprings and Baubles or what have you.
xMage: Jankmaster
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xMage: Jankmaster
Commander - Now Playing
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Commander - Still Brewing
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Instead of Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless, why not use Banefire? Easily castable off Chromatic/Prismatic and uncounterable, plus costs 1-3 less to use. Chances are pretty slim that draw and then want to use Exsanguinate or DttD for the lifegain alone before you're ready to just win.
Mox Opal - Does this have a place in this deck? Especially with the changes to the Legendary rule?
Lotus Bloom - Does this have a place in this deck? Coming in on turn 4 and giving us the ability to tap 1 land for a KCI while still having 2-3 mana available to combo off with seems pretty strong.
In order:
Exsanguinate gets around Leyline of Sanctity, while Banefire does not.
Mox Opal and the Bloom were primarily not in for budget reasons, but if I were to try and come up with practical reasons as to why theyre not in and why im not even testing them is that the Opal only taps for mana (as opposed to pretty much every other artifact having two effects), and the Lotus I cant cast if I draw it, and is only really good suspending turn 1/2, as well as also only tapping for mana. While they do slightly accelerate the deck, they take away from the drwing eggs, and thus consistency in a way, and increase chances of fizzling. Im not sure I like them for those reasons. Also Opals are like $30 which is literally slightly less than what I paid for the rest of the deck
xMage: Jankmaster
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Budgetary wise, I'm not too concerned about cost of deck if it means making the deck much better... though I can see why it would be a concern for some players since this deck is VERY inexpensive.
Mox Opal is probably worth testing as a 3 or 4 of (probably in place of a couple Prismatic and Terrarion imo)
Lotus Bloom I can see not running, but figured I'd ask. Might be worth testing, still.
Yeah, just checked the price , and the Opals are 35$ apiece. I got the deck minus the Citadels and Emrakul for about ~37. Absolutely ridiculous.
Speaking of the Opal, another reason why I'm not sure whether I like it is that each artifact (except the Sculptor) allows me to dig for Krark-Clan Ironworks if I don't have it in my opening hand. This is a rather significant feature that separates this build from the old Eggs - the old Eggs had to pretty much start from scratch if it ever fizzled or was interrupted mid-combo, while this version can crack some Eggs early on, and still get them back with Open the Vaults. Additionally, the deck's only 'free' artifacts are Darksteel Citadel - unlike Affinity/Robots which can use the Mox on the first turn, it is very possible that turn 1 will only yield a Mox and 1 Egg, only allowing the use of the Mox on the next turn. This also is not necessarily a deck that seeks to throw its hand out on the first couple of turns - yes, it accelerates into a potential turn 3 Ironworks, but I feel it would take away from the consistency if I replaced any of the drawing/fixing Eggs with Opals. The one slot that fulfills a similar role is Etherium Sculptor, and the Opal would definitely be easier on the mana for acceleration - but the Sculptor outpaces the Opal by far mid-combo, allowing us to cast around half our Eggs for free, and two of them allow casting ALL our Eggs for free.
In short, it's definitely worth testing, but I do not feel the 100-130$ tag on 3-4 copies of them is worth it, when it comes to sacrificing consistency - especially when we have a similar enabler in Etherium Sculptor. For what it's worth, with the amount of mana-fixing Eggs in the deck, 99% of the time, the reason I am unable to cast a turn 2 Sculptor is just because I am not holding one. If I go turn 1 land, Star/Sphere/Terrarion, turn 2 I generally crack the Egg for blue mana - if I have a second land but no Sculptor I can hope to draw into one, if I'm holding a Sculptor but no land I can hope draw into one and still drop Sculptor, or if neither happens, then my turn 2-3 plays are all artifacts so colored mana doesn't really matter.
The one thing I do not enjoy about Horizon Canopy is that hoping to sac it for effect means that I'm not going off turn 4. It also feels win-more: if I'm comboing, then I'm already drawing a ton, whereas if I'm digging for KCI, then I lose a land (which I probably need, and cannot get back by Opening the Vaults).
These are all valid and great suggestions that merit testing though. I definitely do not have the experience with the deck to say objectively how good something is, but I am only speaking out of theory and the little experience that I do have from piloting. If you test and see otherwise, please do let me know, knowing possible alternatives always helps!
Thanks again for the opinions and thoughts guys. Even though I may disagree, it still makes me think critically about the components of the deck and helps me understand and learn the deck better. Y'all are awesome
xMage: Jankmaster
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Right, except again, not using it for mana pushes the combo back a turn -the inclusion of Gjost Quarter still pushes it back since one of those needs to be untapped. Not to mwntion that the Canopy and Quarter don't come back off Open the Vaults :/
xMage: Jankmaster
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However, the deck is pretty heavily dependant on getting a KCI, to the point of mulliganing hands that don't have KCI or a Faith's Reward and 3-4 cantrip eggs.
With that in mind, and not looking at sticking to a low budget decklist, I've revamped the list to as follows
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
3 Prophetic Prism
3 Elsewhere Flask
3 Mox Opal
2 Conjurer's Bauble
Instant (7)
4 Faith's Reward
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Thoughtcast
2 Open the Vaults
1 Exsanguinate
Creature (5)
4 Etherium Sculptor
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Land (15)
8 Plains
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Disenchant
3 Holy Day
3 Silence
2 Echoing Truth
Very quickly I'll hit the high points:
Mox Opal: Absolutely fantastic. The new legend rule makes this card bonkers. 4 might be right, but unsure of what to cut. Might be Emrakul.
Thoughtcast and Thirst for Knowledge (TfK) : Thoughtcast is really nice pre-combo on turn 3 or 4 to be able to try to draw KCI or your Faiths/Opens. TfK is fantastic both pre and post combo. You can discard 2 artifacts if you wanna, so feel free to discard any extra KCI's or Etherium Sculptors you've drawn and they'll come back off an Open the Vault. (they will not come back off Faith's Reward)
Emrakul: Sometimes you just draw a bunch of 'Eggs' and a KCI and you can go off, but you're facing down an open Relic or somesuch - well 15 mana later, you're probably not gonna care. 15 mana is also a lot easier to reach when every you draw Mox Opal makes 3 mana :-D
Glacial Fortress: Necessary for Thoughtcast and TfK. Only rarely will it be an issue coming into play tapped since unless your hand is all Glacial Fortress and Darksteel Citadels, it's a Tundra as soon as you drop a Plains.
No Terrarion: The color is not a problem thanks to Mox Opals, the 2cc and ETB tapped is less than pleasant often enough to not wanna play it.
Sideboard - very rough sketch, but basically you're going to want Silence for all the control matchups, Holy Day for all the aggro matchups, Leyline for any deck running discard or Slaughter Games + it also is fine for Scapeshift, Storm, and Burn decks. Disenchant and Echoing Truths are there to help against Twin, Pod, Tron, and about 95% of the anti artifact / anti combo hate cards (Stony Silence, Blind Obedience, Damping Matrix, Relic of Progenitus, etc. )
I encourage you guys to try this build, give it a dozen or two games and see how it feels.
Thanks for the update! Glad to see someone else testing this build haha
After I'm done posting this, I will update OP with a 'budget' and 'non-budget' decklist section.
Re: your results
Mox Opal - glad to see it's been working out for you! While I doubt I'll be getting my hands on any in the near future due to its silly pricetag, it's good to see it's a good option for those who can. I'd be wary of cutting Emrakul for an Opal, though, because without him you only have the one Exsanguinate as a wincon. You're also not running Codex Shredder either, so you will not be able to get a second shot if the Exsanguinate eats a counterspell. If you do decide to cut Emrakul, I would suggest making room for a single Codex Shredder for the chance to return Exsanguinate, as well as the ability to get you out of a pinch and go (nearly) infinite with enough non-drawing Eggs, with optional Pyrite Spellbomb/Grapeshot.
Draw spells: I was actually also considering the use of Thoughtcast in the deck as early-turn card draw to dig for KCI or more eggs, while Thirst for Knowledge kinda slipped my mind. In hindsight it might be the better choice - sure, you lose an Egg, but it digs one deeper and is castable (given a blue source) on turn 3 without forcing us to keep Eggs around for affinity. I'll be trying it out when I get home from work tonight, and I'll post my slightly updated list as well.
Emrakul: Agreed. He's the finisher of choice for decks that make big mana for a reason.
Glacial Fortress: Sure, I can buy that. I'm not sure if a full set is optimal with the number of Plains we run, but that can be tweaked.
No Terrarion: That is the one thing on the list I will have to respectfully disagree with. It still costs one mana, so it can drop on the first turn or for free with a single Sculptor, and it draws a card on death and not on activation, which in a way negates the fact that it comes into play tapped. I would actually almost cut Elsewhere Flask before this one.
Now as for the Sideboard, that is definitely something this deck needs work with. I agree on the inclusion of all of these, except I'd replace Holy Day with Ethereal Haze - since we're only running so many Fog effects, the Haze covers ability damage as well. Also, another option could be Sunbeam Spellbomb - saves us in a pinch (against Burn, as well!) or, it can draw cards for us mid-combo.
EDIT: Another possible option is to replace the 'Draw' spells with Fabricate - to ensure grabbing the KCI no matter what.
xMage: Jankmaster
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I found the land to be too little, wanted to include the 4th Opal, and didn't want to cut the Emrakul... so I dropped Thirst for Knowledge. Also tinkered with mana base slightly to include Ghost Quarters, since it's nice to be able to use them to fix mana as needed and to help ramp and build mana during comboing off.
Updated list:
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Mox Opal
3 Prophetic Prism
2 Elsewhere Flask
2 Conjurer's Bauble
Sorcery (7)
4 Thoughtcast
2 Open the Vaults
1 Exsanguinate
4 Etherium Sculptor
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Instant (4)
4 Faith's Reward
Land (17)
8 Plains
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Island
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Disenchant
3 Ethereal Haze
3 Silence
2 Echoing Truth
Here's a meta 'breakdown' as far as I know:
Guy A runs UR Twin
Guy B runs UR Fae (main) and Boros Deck Wins (side)
Guy C runs UWR Control
Guy D runs 4-color Gifts
Guy E runs Pod
Guy F runs Ur Merfolk
My ideas so far:
4x Aether Spellbomb vs Twin, partially vs Pod
4x Disenchant vs Pod, partially vs Twin, also preemptive vs Rest in Peace
4x Defense Grid vs control
3x Sunbeam Spellbomb vs aggro/burn
I can't remember if I've modified the list since my last post, but I will confirm later today or tomorrow.
xMage: Jankmaster
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Commander - Still Brewing
BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW