Summoner is quite good as the army-in-a-can can't be wrathed away in pauper. She presents a slightly different angle of attack than the singleton large creatures in the deck, and even if they deal with the rhino it's still 6 power on the board. She's also a deterrent since they don't want to let her chump block.
I suppose its main weakness would be some kind of recurring bounce spell using ghostly flicker and archaeomancer.
What makes this deck really good though is how many of the spells have alternate costs. An opening hand full of fatties can be salvaged when 3 of them have cycling, and there are a bunch of 3/4 drops with kickers and such to take advantage of them later on in the game. It's very consistent and there are very few "bad draws" with it.
Given the number of ETB triggers you've got (especially your commander), you might consider Angelic Renewal and Whitemane Lion in addition to your Cloudshift/Otherworldly Journey package.
Yeah the lion was in there for a while but wound up getting cut along the way to make space for other cards. He might make his way back in as bouncing does give me a few extra value targets (woodreaders, mold shambler), but space is getting tight!
Angelic renewal I hadn't considered, but I don't think I'd be likely to bring it in. It's advantage is that you can play it before you need it, but that makes it vulnerable to removal and also lets your opponent easily play around it if there's any way they can.
I left OWJ and cloudshift in through my cuts because they are so versatile. They can be cheap ramp, counters for removal, valuetown on the general, cloudshift can be a surprise blocker, OWJ can be 1 turn worth of removal or a way to destroy auras, etc. I don't want too many of these effects since they can be dead draws, but a few give me tricks/options to keep my opponents guessing.
Given the number of ETB triggers you've got (especially your commander), you might consider Angelic Renewal and Whitemane Lion in addition to your Cloudshift/Otherworldly Journey package.
Along with that is Narrow Escape, Steel Leaf Paladin, and Kor Skyfisher.
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Given the number of ETB triggers you've got (especially your commander), you might consider Angelic Renewal and Whitemane Lion in addition to your Cloudshift/Otherworldly Journey package.
Additionally Allay and Ray of Distortion seem a little costly. They might be based on your playgroup but some alternatives to consider include: Revoke Existence, Deglamer, and Rootgrapple. The first two are great options versus cards with indestructible and Rootgrapple is a solid option any non-creature permanents including planeswalkers if you play against non-Pauper EDH decks.
Too many of these effects starts to hurt the consistency of the deck though. Blinking the general is cheap and effective, bouncing and replaying or needing her to die takes more resources and time.
I'll have to play it more to see, but the challenge is to have a critical mass of ramp so that I'm never stuck with a crappy board. Getting to 7 mana is the top priority of the deck.
Farhaven Elf is one I missed, should probably pick one up and find a slot. I passed on quirion trailblazer and kor cartographer as they seemed like pretty marginal bodies for 4 mana, and if 1 land at 2 mana is bad, 1 land at 4 mana is probably quite bad (ondu giant notwithstanding!)
Far wanderings I cut because its 3 mana for 1 land 95% of the time, and when it isn't I probably don't really care that much about the extra lands. I cut werebear for the same reason - getting threshold isn't very easy with this deck, and by the time I have it the upside of these cards is no longer that exciting.
Reap and sow is worth another look. At first I just thought "expensive mwonvuli acid moss" and moved on. But I note it can fetch quicksand or serji steppe and still gives me the option of destroying my opponent's tempo if they play an early bounceland.
Additionally Allay and Ray of Distortion seem a little costly. They might be based on your playgroup but some alternatives to consider include: Revoke Existence, Deglamer, and Rootgrapple. The first two are great options versus cards with indestructible and Rootgrapple is a solid option any non-creature permanents including planeswalkers if you play against non-Pauper EDH decks.
With all the ramp having allay and ray cost 4-6 mana doesn't seem like it should matter. If I have to I can blow allay for 2 mana. I was more interested in keeping up the card advantage compared to something like revoke existence. I cannot imagine indestructible artifacts, nevermind enchantments, come up very often. Even the recursion of artifacts is relatively limited.
White gives me baller removal like fetters, pacifism, JTN, O-Ring. Cards like this I would see more for decks that don't have access to the grade A removal.
Fangren Marauder is in the deck. Maul splicer was cut recently - I am only running 2 flicker effects, and a pair of 3/3s just isn't as likely to put the game away the way a 6/6 or bigger will. The general already comes at the opponent on the "army of tokens" line, maul splicer is a worse version of our general.
Sylvok replica seems unnecessary. I've got mold shambler and wickerbough elder that blow those things up without dying, and pridemage as a cheaper/better version of replica.
I did see a few places where people were commenting that tangle golem is surprisingly effective in the format - that's one I'll consider for sure.
I considered stuff like vines, safe passage, apostle's blessing, and the various totem armors but its that age old issue of deck space, and when push comes to shove too many of these effects make for bad hands and dead draws. I have been considering bringing in elvish fury as a combat trick and mana dump.
The recursion cards - charm, rebirth, reclaim etc - I'm not running that many utility spells where the ability to tutor form my GY seems that valuable. And again, every one of these is one less ramp/fatty/removal spell and an increased risk of dead draws!
I'd maybe try to fit in the standard equip package of bonesplitter, vulshok morningstar, and kitesail (perhaps over cards like acid moss + a few others). The 4/4 rhino, with it's trample is a real treasure to cultivate. One application of the morningstar turns it into a legit threat, by pauper standards.
I'd maybe try to fit in the standard equip package of bonesplitter, vulshok morningstar, and kitesail (perhaps over cards like acid moss + a few others). The 4/4 rhino, with it's trample is a real treasure to cultivate. One application of the morningstar turns it into a legit threat, by pauper standards.
The more I think about this the more it makes sense. They get more value out of the knight and centaur tokens too, not to mention some of those ETB guys like wood elves. I had been thinking my guys are all monsters anyways so no need for +2+0, but there are a number of small dudes (including the general) that would benefit from these.
The only reason to leave them out might be to try and blank the maindeck artifact hate of other players - to the extent that's common?
The only reason to leave them out might be to try and blank the maindeck artifact hate of other players - to the extent that's common?
Tutoring is so inconsistent in PDH, outside of degenerate 5 color decks, that I think deck size itself frequently blanks its own land/artifact/enchantment hate. Green also allows you to get back plenty of cards from the graveyard, so I wouldn't live in fear of artifact hate, preventing your including proactive threats of your own.
Bauble is good outside of green. In green you have a bunch of spells that just straight up cost 2 and do the same thing (rampant growth, into the north, farseek), or do 3 and do more (cultivate, kodama's, far wanderings).
Moment's peace is good, I actually just made space for safe passage to give it a try - I'm not sure how often I'm going to need to fog with this deck, I originally had lull in but cut it.
I agree (although I think your arrow is the wrong way) that Trostanis is probably better than iona's judgement here since the general itself will always turn on the populate, and a few other cards do as well. The only reason trostanis wasnt already in was that I apparently didnt have a copy in my collection (threw them out or gave them away :S) so I just moved on and forgot about it!
Elephant ambush is a card like ambush viper, deadly recluce, and utopia vow - something I'd consider for monogreen or green/blue. There are better tricks/removal in red white and black.
Rootborn and druids deliverance were two cards I had in the first version of the deck. I think there's a limited number of slots that can be used for combat tricks or marginal situations, and there are a number of contenders for those slots:
Each has a different upside - safe passage is a fog that can also be a combat blowout and occasionally counter a burn spell to the dome. Bold defenses let's me alpha strike / blowout after a summoner resolves. Rootborn counters removal spells, can be a combat blowout, and can give me a token. Elvish fury is a mana sink and combat trick as well as card advantage...
But yeah, I don't want 10 variants of these marginal spells in my deck, no matter how versatile they might be. A critical mass of the deck needs to be ramp, removal, and fatties.
You may be leaning too heavily on the ramp aspect of this deck. 40 land plus I count an additional 26 additional cards that can fetch lands/ramp mana. Seems that this deck runs the risk of flooding out more than I'd be comfortable with. If you are squeezed for cards as you've mentioned earlier, I'd look at clearing out some mana fixing/ramp.
You may be leaning too heavily on the ramp aspect of this deck. 40 land plus I count an additional 26 additional cards that can fetch lands/ramp mana. Seems that this deck runs the risk of flooding out more than I'd be comfortable with. If you are squeezed for cards as you've mentioned earlier, I'd look at clearing out some mana fixing/ramp.
Yep that's actually where I've been cutting for some of the suggestions. I dropped farseek, nature's lore and growth spasm so far (possibly another 1 or 2 - can't remember).
In testing there was a problem with flooding and not being able to get the general killed to replay it. Was another nod towards increasing the bounce effects to include maybe the steel leaf paladin and narrow escape. I was also thinking serrated arrows might be worth a slot if there are generally lots of x/1s around anyways. It doubles as a way to kill the summoner in a pinch and could take out other x/1 generals multiple times (say, mistmeadow witch)
Ashnod's Altar seems like a good addition in place of one of the ramp spells. Provides a way to get rid of the general while also providing some extra mana to re-cast her.
1 Trostani's Summoner
Creatures (27)
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wall of Roots
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Dawnglare Invoker
3 Fierce Empath
3 Wood Elves
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Citanul Woodreaders
4 Seraph of Dawn
4 Thrashing Mossdog
4 Wickerbough Elder
4 Kavu Primarch
4 wildheart invoker
4 Kozilek's Predator
4 Ondu Giant
5 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
5 Silverglade Elemental
5 Barkhide Mauler
6 Fangren Marauder
6 Mold Shambler
6 Pale Recluse
7 Jungle Weaver
7 Wirewood Guardian
7 krosan tusker
8 walker of the grove
8 Guardian of Vitu-Ghazi
8 ulamogs crusher
1 cloudshift
1 rancor
1 prey upon
2 journey to nowhere
2 pacifism
2 otherworldly journey
2 Farseek
2 Into the North
2 Rampant Growth
2 natures lore
2 explore
2 selesnya signet
2 mind stone
3 arrest
3 oblivion ring
3 radiant's judgement
3 Cultivate
3 Growth Spasm
3 Kodama's Reach
3 search for tomorrow
3 armadillo cloak
3 whispersilk cloak
4 faith's fetters
4 ray of distortion
4 Skyshroud Claim
4 Ranger's Path
4 Mwonvuli Acid Moss
5 Allay
5 Angelic Edict
5 Iona's Judgment
5 Sprout Swarm
7 Bold defense
12 Snow-Covered Plains
15 snow-covered forest
1 Sejeri Steppe
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Kabira Crossroads
1 Drifting Meadow
1 Slippery Karst
1 Turntimber Grove
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Khalni Garden
1 Selesnya Guildgate
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Desert
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Quicksand
Summoner is quite good as the army-in-a-can can't be wrathed away in pauper. She presents a slightly different angle of attack than the singleton large creatures in the deck, and even if they deal with the rhino it's still 6 power on the board. She's also a deterrent since they don't want to let her chump block.
I suppose its main weakness would be some kind of recurring bounce spell using ghostly flicker and archaeomancer.
What makes this deck really good though is how many of the spells have alternate costs. An opening hand full of fatties can be salvaged when 3 of them have cycling, and there are a bunch of 3/4 drops with kickers and such to take advantage of them later on in the game. It's very consistent and there are very few "bad draws" with it.
Angelic renewal I hadn't considered, but I don't think I'd be likely to bring it in. It's advantage is that you can play it before you need it, but that makes it vulnerable to removal and also lets your opponent easily play around it if there's any way they can.
I left OWJ and cloudshift in through my cuts because they are so versatile. They can be cheap ramp, counters for removal, valuetown on the general, cloudshift can be a surprise blocker, OWJ can be 1 turn worth of removal or a way to destroy auras, etc. I don't want too many of these effects since they can be dead draws, but a few give me tricks/options to keep my opponents guessing.
Thanks for the ideas!
Along with that is Narrow Escape, Steel Leaf Paladin, and Kor Skyfisher.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
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StaffI agree. Definitely worth maximizing.
It looks like a good start. I'm not a fan of the ramp spells that only fetch a single basic land (Farseek, Into the North, Rampant Growth, Search for Tomorrow, and Growth Spasm). Alternatives to consider include:
Additionally Allay and Ray of Distortion seem a little costly. They might be based on your playgroup but some alternatives to consider include: Revoke Existence, Deglamer, and Rootgrapple. The first two are great options versus cards with indestructible and Rootgrapple is a solid option any non-creature permanents including planeswalkers if you play against non-Pauper EDH decks.
Other cards to consider:
My thoughts on the suggestions below:
Too many of these effects starts to hurt the consistency of the deck though. Blinking the general is cheap and effective, bouncing and replaying or needing her to die takes more resources and time.
I'll have to play it more to see, but the challenge is to have a critical mass of ramp so that I'm never stuck with a crappy board. Getting to 7 mana is the top priority of the deck.
Farhaven Elf is one I missed, should probably pick one up and find a slot. I passed on quirion trailblazer and kor cartographer as they seemed like pretty marginal bodies for 4 mana, and if 1 land at 2 mana is bad, 1 land at 4 mana is probably quite bad (ondu giant notwithstanding!)
Far wanderings I cut because its 3 mana for 1 land 95% of the time, and when it isn't I probably don't really care that much about the extra lands. I cut werebear for the same reason - getting threshold isn't very easy with this deck, and by the time I have it the upside of these cards is no longer that exciting.
Reap and sow is worth another look. At first I just thought "expensive mwonvuli acid moss" and moved on. But I note it can fetch quicksand or serji steppe and still gives me the option of destroying my opponent's tempo if they play an early bounceland.
With all the ramp having allay and ray cost 4-6 mana doesn't seem like it should matter. If I have to I can blow allay for 2 mana. I was more interested in keeping up the card advantage compared to something like revoke existence. I cannot imagine indestructible artifacts, nevermind enchantments, come up very often. Even the recursion of artifacts is relatively limited.
White gives me baller removal like fetters, pacifism, JTN, O-Ring. Cards like this I would see more for decks that don't have access to the grade A removal.
Fangren Marauder is in the deck. Maul splicer was cut recently - I am only running 2 flicker effects, and a pair of 3/3s just isn't as likely to put the game away the way a 6/6 or bigger will. The general already comes at the opponent on the "army of tokens" line, maul splicer is a worse version of our general.
Sylvok replica seems unnecessary. I've got mold shambler and wickerbough elder that blow those things up without dying, and pridemage as a cheaper/better version of replica.
I did see a few places where people were commenting that tangle golem is surprisingly effective in the format - that's one I'll consider for sure.
I considered stuff like vines, safe passage, apostle's blessing, and the various totem armors but its that age old issue of deck space, and when push comes to shove too many of these effects make for bad hands and dead draws. I have been considering bringing in elvish fury as a combat trick and mana dump.
The recursion cards - charm, rebirth, reclaim etc - I'm not running that many utility spells where the ability to tutor form my GY seems that valuable. And again, every one of these is one less ramp/fatty/removal spell and an increased risk of dead draws!
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
The more I think about this the more it makes sense. They get more value out of the knight and centaur tokens too, not to mention some of those ETB guys like wood elves. I had been thinking my guys are all monsters anyways so no need for +2+0, but there are a number of small dudes (including the general) that would benefit from these.
The only reason to leave them out might be to try and blank the maindeck artifact hate of other players - to the extent that's common?
Tutoring is so inconsistent in PDH, outside of degenerate 5 color decks, that I think deck size itself frequently blanks its own land/artifact/enchantment hate. Green also allows you to get back plenty of cards from the graveyard, so I wouldn't live in fear of artifact hate, preventing your including proactive threats of your own.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Moment's Peace can buy you time too.
I also think Iona-> Trostani's Judgement.
And from Cube: Elephant Ambush is acceptable too
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Bauble is good outside of green. In green you have a bunch of spells that just straight up cost 2 and do the same thing (rampant growth, into the north, farseek), or do 3 and do more (cultivate, kodama's, far wanderings).
Moment's peace is good, I actually just made space for safe passage to give it a try - I'm not sure how often I'm going to need to fog with this deck, I originally had lull in but cut it.
I agree (although I think your arrow is the wrong way) that Trostanis is probably better than iona's judgement here since the general itself will always turn on the populate, and a few other cards do as well. The only reason trostanis wasnt already in was that I apparently didnt have a copy in my collection (threw them out or gave them away :S) so I just moved on and forgot about it!
Elephant ambush is a card like ambush viper, deadly recluce, and utopia vow - something I'd consider for monogreen or green/blue. There are better tricks/removal in red white and black.
Rootborn defenses is worth running even if you don't have the token support. It can be such a blowout.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
Currently Playing- EDH
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RWTajic, Master of the Reverse BladeRW
RRRZirilan, How to Train Your DragonRRR
PDH Decks
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I probably only want 2 of these at most:
safe passage
bold defenses
rootborn defense
elvish fury
druid's deliverance
lull
moment's peace
dawn charm
Each has a different upside - safe passage is a fog that can also be a combat blowout and occasionally counter a burn spell to the dome. Bold defenses let's me alpha strike / blowout after a summoner resolves. Rootborn counters removal spells, can be a combat blowout, and can give me a token. Elvish fury is a mana sink and combat trick as well as card advantage...
But yeah, I don't want 10 variants of these marginal spells in my deck, no matter how versatile they might be. A critical mass of the deck needs to be ramp, removal, and fatties.
I think you're a little too worried about one of these being a dead card in hand. Safe Passage and Rootborn Defenses are hardly ever bad cards.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
Currently Playing- EDH
GGGOmnath, Locus of the LifestreamGGG
BBBShirei, Lord of PoniesBBB
UWRasputin Dreamweaver, Russia's Greatest Love MachineUW
UBWZur, Killer of FunUBW
UGWTreva, Princess of CanterlotUGW
RWTajic, Master of the Reverse BladeRW
RRRZirilan, How to Train Your DragonRRR
PDH Decks
Gelectrode
Ascended Lawmage
Blaze Commando
Yep that's actually where I've been cutting for some of the suggestions. I dropped farseek, nature's lore and growth spasm so far (possibly another 1 or 2 - can't remember).
In testing there was a problem with flooding and not being able to get the general killed to replay it. Was another nod towards increasing the bounce effects to include maybe the steel leaf paladin and narrow escape. I was also thinking serrated arrows might be worth a slot if there are generally lots of x/1s around anyways. It doubles as a way to kill the summoner in a pinch and could take out other x/1 generals multiple times (say, mistmeadow witch)
Ashnod's Altar seems like a good addition in place of one of the ramp spells. Provides a way to get rid of the general while also providing some extra mana to re-cast her.