Hey guys, Zovc here. It's been a while since I've had a cube together, and it's also been a while since I've worked on a normal cube. I'm tired of not having access to one, and I'm hoping to get a weekly gathering going.
Basic Information Cube Size: ~540 (Under Construction) Breakdown: Under Construction Standard or Theme: Standard/Fun Snow Lands: Average Number of Players: TBD How Often Drafted: TBD
Card Selection Proxies: Yes. Powered: Yes. All five moxen and Time Walk. Portal: Yes. Duplicates and unique cards. "Un" Cards: Yes, if they play nicely. City of Ass has fun interactions, Blast from the Past is solid, and we're trying out Double Header. Booster Tutor is fun. Banned Cards for Power-Level: Ancestral Recall Banned Cards for Time Constraints: Banned Cards for "fun" factor:Mind Twist
Cube Design Standard or Multiplayer: Standard. Sideboards?: Yes. Color Balance: Yes. Gold Balance: Yes. Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Varies. Trying the "2 hybrid for two monoclored" trade to see if it benefits aggro. Color Triggers as Gold: Perfectly Balanced CMC: No. Whatever makes the colors and archetypes function the way we want them to takes precedence over mathematical and aesthetic pleasantness.
My cube list is hosted on CubeTutor here, and now that they have a convenient cube-to-text machine, it's also listed here!
I've been using surveys via Google Docs to question local players about their tastes and interests regarding cube, and it yielded some fairly useful data. Crapcaster³ Survey 1 Crapcaster³ Survey 2 (Nevermind the titles, I decided to start using iterated names with the second survey.)
So, I started off by including cards I thought would be fun, then I pretty much copy/pasted Wtwlf's cube list into my cubetutor page and now I'm going to start tinkering with it. I'm aiming for a 540 cube, and I'm not certain of the mono/multi/colorless breakdown I want to reach, but I do feel like I want more than 70 multicolor cards like I originally was planning to include. Only 3 nonbasic land and 4 gold cards per color combo feels a little sparce. What color breakdown do you suggest at 540?Do you feel like there are any must includes at 540 that I'm missing?
The first survey was a little vague and lacked direction, but I used the information from the first one to develop a more specific and useful quiz in the second. Including voluntary names in the survey also allowed me to discuss answers with people, which made for some really useful dialogue and got some of the players on board with my personal design philosophy. I've been meaning to design one for MTGS, but I never got around to it. I'll probably build one out of dialogue in this thread.
Most local players agree with me, but one is very adamant and stern in opposition. I am against "dedicated combo" in cube (Storm, Mill, etc...); I would prefer to include "open-ended" combo cards that are useful outside of a combo deck like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, but exciting when they are combo'd with (Restoration Angel, Zealous Conscripts, Pestermite). I would like to hear arguments for "dedicated combo," if anyone has them to offer.
Three more questions, before I turn it over to you folks: What is the most fun card you've played with in cube? What is the most fun card you've played against in cube? What is the most fun archetype you've assembled and played in cube?
And one more controversial question: How do you feel about custom cards in cube? I'm thinking of including an extra, colorless mox in the cube to increase the density of moxen in the cube. I saw a proxy that read: Mox Crystal0 Artifact T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
Any other suggestions, comments, or discussion are welcome, as well!
Having played with pretty much every Un card in existence at one point or another in my cube, I can give feedback on what cards work well and which ones don't.
Powerful or complex Un-cards that I would consider for "normal" cubes include:
What is the most fun card you've played with in cube? What is the most fun card you've played against in cube?
Letter Bomb. As soon as it's cast, your opponent's on a clock and it's just a thriller every time they draw a card. Not to mention that you get to see each of your opponent's draws for the rest of the game. Side note, we've had someone receive a Letter Bomb, personally shuffle their own library very carefully, and ending up blowing themselves up on the next draw.
What is the most fun archetype you've assembled and played in cube?
Land-focused (manlands, 5 colour, with things like crucible, KotR, every nonbasic, etc.)
Artifact (Tolarian academy, Tezzeret x2, every artifact in the cube)
And one more controversial question: How do you feel about custom cards in cube? I'm thinking of including an extra, colorless mox in the cube to increase the density of moxen in the cube. I saw a proxy that read: Mox Crystal0 Artifact T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
Any other suggestions, comments, or discussion are welcome, as well!
If you're going to run custom cards, why not just build an entire proxy cube? Why spend money on the real cards? Why not use your own imagination to build entire custom sets and cards? I think its definitely a fun endeavour, but I also feel like it goes against the nature of cube (IMO: which is to create a fun, powerful singleton draft environment limited by the existing card pool). I didn't find conventional cards to be "fun" enough for my group, which is why I added so many Un-cards. I've also scaled back a lot since my first iterations of my cube, but I'm also desperately hoping they release a third Un set with a power level comparable to modern cards.
What turns me off to Jack-in-the-Mox (and a number of other un-cards) is that you have to roll a die every time you activate it. It's not that big of a deal, but having to roll a die every turn seems like an unnecessary addition. If I can, I'd like to avoid dice and coins as game elements.
I have taken your word, though, Winter, and added Letter Bomb to my cube list. When the time comes, we'll see how my playgroup likes it.
Do you think Lands.dec and Artifacts.dec (with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas) are worthwhile things to support at 540 cards? If so, how would you support them?
The reason I wouldn't 'proxy' an entire 'custom' cube is because that would take even more investment and tweaking than a regular cube. I don't think I've got the commitment and consistent interest to make that project rewarding enough, as interesting and exciting as it sounds.
DerBK, I upgraded from 30 dual lands per color pair to 40, and I've got a few five-color lands in addition to Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds. I'll probably go up to 50 dual lands per color, but we'll see how everything looks and feels once I'm closer to 540 cards.
I've just about got the 50 artifacts and 10 "other lands", so I'll tinker around with that using 50~60 as a target number.
Most of my monocolored sections are between 60 and 70, so I'm getting close there. I'm gonna really start wracking my brain over those once I sort out what deck I'm playing at an upcoming tournament.
I plan on supporting "reanimator combo" and "graveyard plusses" along with Kiki-Jiki. I feel like Johnny should be able to sate himself when playing with my cube.
Interesting that you found Maelstrom Nexus to be so fun. I'll consider finding a spot for it. It's only one card, after all. I'll also make room for Momentary Blink.
Regarding you comments on custom cards, DerBK, I think that's a little harsh and somewhat misguided. Restrictions breed creativity, sure, but they're still restrictions. Wanting to increase the number of cards of a given type isn't necessarily against what "Cube" is in principle. I think it's simply divergent. But regardless, I think it's fair to just disagree here. All I'm trying to say is I don't think there is purpose in being condescending and saying things like "he sucks as a cube designer."
Anyways! Thanks again, everyone. I'll see to returning the favor and posting in you guys' cube threads in the near future.
I already replied to your thread, Nof, asking about a number of your "unusual" cards. I like quite a few of them on a Timmy level.
What turns me off to Jack-in-the-Mox (and a number of other un-cards) is that you have to roll a die every time you activate it. It's not that big of a deal, but having to roll a die every turn seems like an unnecessary addition. If I can, I'd like to avoid dice and coins as game elements.
I get that most people don't like rolling dice, etc., but you'd be surprised at how often you choose not to use jack-in-the-mox (which makes it better than cards like mana vault imo). this is a card that ramps you when you need it (often T1), but can sit out and still not hurt you in case you don't need it right away. the dice rolling makes for fun when you might get lucky for a splash (i've rolled just to see if i could pull a splash colour before) and of course, because the mox will occasionally kill you. I used to have a "dice rolling" theme in my cube (complete with krark's thumb) but I cut it because it was too hard to force and weak. however, the one "random" card that survived the cuts was jack-in-the-mox because 5 times out of 6, it's just a mox crystal, which is awesome. (PS. i bet you have another coin-flipping card in your cube - Ral Zarek)
I have taken your word, though, Winter, and added Letter Bomb to my cube list. When the time comes, we'll see how my playgroup likes it.
Hopefully your group is fun and likes it. it's not ridiculously powerful, but it does add a fun "psychological" element to the game since every draw becomes potentially lethal (aka people will try to not brainstorm if they don't have to).
Do you think Lands.dec and Artifacts.dec (with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas) are worthwhile things to support at 540 cards? If so, how would you support them?
Lands.dec in any way similar to 43lands.dec is definitely not viable. what I mean by a lands.dec is a deck which tries to grab many spell lands/manlands, crucible, knight of the reliquary, life from the loam, and any value/wrath cards from there. it's a deck that fixes well, dodges wraths, and wins through the grind and is 100% viable without any need to put "narrow" cards in to support it. I love to p1p1 crucible because that just makes me grab every nonbasic after that.
Artifact deck is even more viable if anything. I run Tezz, AOB because it's my most favourite planeswalker, but I'd argue he's an extremely good, albeit very narrow pw as well. although his ult might not go off as much as you'd like, the -2 is good for turning "dead" artifacts (ex. zuran orb) into a relevant beater.
I've been away from Magic, entertaining a number of other hobbies (mostly non-card/board game related, sadly) and people. Last Friday, though, I met up with some friends and we played EDH and talked Magic on the way to a Barenaked Ladies concert. I got super-jazzed about throwing a cube together when going through a collection my friend bought and is re-selling.
So, I'm trying to revive Crapcaster³. I'm buckling down and preparing to proxy cards I don't reasonably expect to acquire. Issue is, I'm still not quite at my 540 target, and a few new sets have come out since I was drafting the list (M14 and Theros, specifically--and the new Commander is spoiled).
I'd appreciate anyone taking the time to look through my cube list on cubetutor and tell me what looks obnoxious/bad, and perhaps help me get up to 540 cards. When I look at the list I get distracted by how much I like pretty much every card in it.
Are there any new all stars from M14 or Theros?
Edit: I want to add Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Do you think I can get away with cutting any of my Dimir cards for him?
you should at lest download the MTGS .txt file from Cube tutor and post it here. It takes like 2 seconds and cube tutor was nice enough to add it as a feature....
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You can also view it here at Cubetutor <---- please draft my cube!!
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you should at lest download the MTGS .txt file from Cube tutor and post it here. It takes like 2 seconds and cube tutor was nice enough to add it as a feature....
Thank you for your suggestion. I didn't know that feature had been added!
- You do not play Black Lotus, Sol Ring, Ancestral Recall, but you do play original Moxen, Time Walk, Library of Alexandria and Mana Crypt. I'd either play them all or exclude them all.
- Riftwing Cloudskate seems almost strictly better than Double Header.
- Fireslinger is listed twice. As is Fireblast.
- Since you run Ankh of Mishra, you may also want Zo-zu the Punisher.
- I have no idea what Ghostly Changeling is doing in there. Pet card?
- Same for Increasing Confusion, even though I can kind of see how that might be an okay win condition in some decks (really narrow card though).
- I think you may want an extra Tinker target (Sphinx of the Steel Wind or Inkwell Leviathan - I play both at 450, which admittedly may be one too many).
- No Crucible of Worlds, even though you have Life from the Loam and even support it with cycle-lands.
- I'd add Hero's Downfall from Theros, to help fight against the high number of PW's you included.
All in all, it seems like a very good list that's relatively close to several "established" Cubes (but with Un-cards).
-The idea behind skipping out on certain parts of power are that they are not fun to play against. Black Lotus + land into Jace, the Mind Sculptor (or any number of cube 4-drops, really) is an immediate scoop situation for the opposition. I've heard arguments like that against Upheaval and Wildfire and other cards, but the fact of the matter is that you have to invest into a deck game state to make those cards make your opponent scoop. With black lotus, you practically have the MTG version of Exodia in combination with a large number of cube cards. Rather than going on about this, I'll explain my rationale behind the cards I am playing: Time Walk is no doubt a powerful card. Potentially backbreaking and unfun, too. The reason I want to try it out is because it's a blue card that especially powers up aggressive decks as well as Superfriends (which is planeswalker control, a pet archetype of mine.)
The Moxen made the cut because they aren't nearly as explosive as Black Lotus. I haven't played with them yet, so my opinion may change, but I feel like their power level is much more subdued and has a higher chance of being interactive than the Lotus or Ancestral Recall, or whatever.
Regarding Library, I just forgot to put the card in the list! We'll try it out.
Mana Crypt is not in for the same reasons Sol Ring and Lotus aren't in.
-I'll add Riftwing Cloudskate and consider cutting Double Header.
-Thanks for catching those duplicates!
-We'll give Zo-zu the Punisher a chance!
-I think I might have been mixing up projects, I was working on a tribal cube at one point in time. Ghostly Changeling will be cut.
-Increasing Confusion was a card I wanted to try. It's prone to being cut.
-I'll consider how many tinker targets there are and add one or both of those if I feel it's necessary, thanks.
-Crucible of Worlds will be added! Thought it was already in there.
-Hero's Downfall will be added.
Do you feel like anything is particularly absent from the lists? I'm so close to my target of 540!
If you want to go up to 540 cards, I think you need to start by adding another cycle of mana-fixing lands. Your choice of filterlands (Shadowmoor/Eventide), painlands (Ice Age/Apocalypse), buddy lands (M10/Innistrad) or bounce lands (original Ravnica block). The Mirage fetchlands and the Scars fastlands are also good options, but not available for each color pair. You can of course mix and match which ones you give to which color combination.
Next you can add some packages of slightly more narrow cards to make some extra archetypes available.
At 540, I'd want each guild to have 5 lands. After the holy trinity of dual/shock/fetch, I would tailor the lands to what the guild wants to do most often. I'd run a mix of lands rather than full cycles. The allied colors probably each want their Worldwake manland and Selesnya definitely wants Horizon Canopy. RB and RW want the fastest lands possible (probably painland and Innistrad checkland). Etc.
(http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/280)
Basic Information
Cube Size: ~540 (Under Construction)
Breakdown: Under Construction
Standard or Theme: Standard/Fun
Snow Lands:
Average Number of Players: TBD
How Often Drafted: TBD
Card Selection
Proxies: Yes.
Powered: Yes. All five moxen and Time Walk.
Portal: Yes. Duplicates and unique cards.
"Un" Cards: Yes, if they play nicely. City of Ass has fun interactions, Blast from the Past is solid, and we're trying out Double Header. Booster Tutor is fun.
Banned Cards for Power-Level: Ancestral Recall
Banned Cards for Time Constraints:
Banned Cards for "fun" factor: Mind Twist
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard.
Sideboards?: Yes.
Color Balance: Yes.
Gold Balance: Yes.
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Varies. Trying the "2 hybrid for two monoclored" trade to see if it benefits aggro.
Color Triggers as Gold:
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No. Whatever makes the colors and archetypes function the way we want them to takes precedence over mathematical and aesthetic pleasantness.
My cube list is hosted on CubeTutor here, and now that they have a convenient cube-to-text machine, it's also listed here!
1x Elite Vanguard
1x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1x Mother of Runes
1x Savannah Lions
1x Soldier of the Pantheon
1x Steppe Lynx
1x Student of Warfare
1x Accorder Paladin
1x Cloistered Youth
1x Knight of Meadowgrain
1x Kor Skyfisher
1x Lone Missionary
1x Soltari Monk
1x Soltari Priest
1x Soltari Trooper
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Wall of Omens
1x Blade Splicer
1x Flickerwisp
1x Kor Sanctifiers
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Mirror Entity
1x Silverblade Paladin
1x Soltari Champion
1x Spectral Procession
1x Calciderm
1x Hero of Bladehold
1x Ranger of Eos
1x Restoration Angel
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Cloudgoat Ranger
1x Karmic Guide
1x Reveillark
1x Exalted Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
White Planeswalker
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1x Ajani Goldmane
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Gideon, Champion of Justice
1x Elspeth Tirel
1x Gideon Jura
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
White Artifact
1x Mox Pearl
1x Shrine of Loyal Legions
White Instant
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Mana Tithe
1x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Disenchant
1x Eternal Dragon
White Sorcery
1x Balance
1x Armageddon
1x Day of Judgment
1x Ravages of War
1x Wrath of God
1x Catastrophe
1x Terminus
1x Entreat the Angels
White Enchantment
1x Land Tax
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Angelic Destiny
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Moat
White Enchantment Artifact
1x Spear of Heliod
White Land
1x Kor Haven
1x Windbrisk Heights
Blue Creature
1x Enclave Cryptologist
1x Augur of Bolas
1x Invisible Stalker
1x Looter il-Kor
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Waterfront Bouncer
1x Deceiver Exarch
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Man-o'-War
1x Pestermite
1x Serendib Efreet
1x Trinket Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Dungeon Geists
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1x Mulldrifter
1x Riftwing Cloudskate
1x Aetherling
Blue Planeswalker
1x Jace Beleren
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Jace, Memory Adept
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
Blue Artifact Creature
1x Inkwell Leviathan
Blue Artifact
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Crystal Shard
1x Vedalken Shackles
Blue Instant
1x Force Spike
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Unsummon
1x Vapor Snag
1x Arcane Denial
1x Counterspell
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Daze
1x Impulse
1x Into the Roil
1x Mana Drain
1x Mana Leak
1x Memory Lapse
1x Miscalculation
1x Remand
1x Forbid
1x Frantic Search
1x Intuition
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
1x Condescend
Blue Sorcery
1x Ponder
1x Preordain
1x Time Walk
1x Show and Tell
1x Tinker
1x Deep Analysis
1x Bribery
1x Time Spiral
1x Upheaval
Blue Enchantment
1x Control Magic
1x Opposition
1x Treachery
Blue Land
1x Academy Ruins
1x Faerie Conclave
1x Lonely Sandbar
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Tolarian Academy
Black Creature
1x Carnophage
1x Diregraf Ghoul
1x Gravecrawler
1x Sarcomancy
1x Tormented Hero
1x Vampire Lacerator
1x Blood Scrivener
1x Bloodghast
1x Dark Confidant
1x Nether Traitor
1x Nezumi Graverobber
1x Oona's Prowler
1x Pack Rat
1x Reassembling Skeleton
1x Vampire Hexmage
1x Bane of the Living
1x Bone Shredder
1x Geralf's Messenger
1x Hypnotic Specter
1x Vampire Nighthawk
1x Bloodline Keeper
1x Braids, Cabal Minion
1x Nekrataal
1x Skinrender
1x Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
1x Shriekmaw
1x Grave Titan
1x Twisted Abomination
1x Griselbrand
1x Tombstalker
Black Planeswalker
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana Vess
Black Artifact
1x Mox Jet
Black Instant
1x Booster Tutor
1x Dark Ritual
1x Entomb
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Go for the Throat
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Tribute to Hunger
1x Snuff Out
1x Contagion
1x Duress
1x Imperial Seal
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Reanimate
1x Thoughtseize
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Exhume
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Sinkhole
1x Smallpox
1x Buried Alive
1x Pox
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Consuming Vapors
1x Damnation
1x Sever the Bloodline
1x Living Death
1x Profane Command
Black Enchantment
1x Animate Dead
1x Bitterblossom
1x Dance of the Dead
1x Necromancy
1x Necropotence
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Recurring Nightmare
Black Land
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Red Creature
1x Firedrinker Satyr
1x Goblin Guide
1x Goblin Patrol
1x Goblin Welder
1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Greater Gargadon
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Jackal Pup
1x Reckless Waif
1x Spikeshot Elder
1x Stromkirk Noble
1x Ash Zealot
1x Fireslinger
1x Gore-House Chainwalker
1x Hellspark Elemental
1x Kargan Dragonlord
1x Keldon Marauders
1x Lightning Mauler
1x Plated Geopede
1x Stormblood Berserker
1x Blistering Firecat
1x Chandra's Phoenix
1x Fire Imp
1x Imperial Recruiter
1x Keldon Vandals
1x Manic Vandal
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Zo-Zu the Punisher
1x Avalanche Riders
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Hellrider
1x Hero of Oxid Ridge
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
1x Zealous Conscripts
1x Inferno Titan
Red Planeswalker
1x Chandra, the Firebrand
1x Koth of the Hammer
1x Chandra Nalaar
Red Artifact
1x Mox Ruby
1x Shrine of Burning Rage
Red Instant
1x Burst Lightning
1x Firestorm
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Incinerate
1x Magma Jet
1x Searing Spear
1x Blast from the Past
1x Char
1x Staggershock
1x Fireblast
Red Sorcery
1x Chain Lightning
1x Faithless Looting
1x Firebolt
1x Arc Trail
1x Arc Lightning
1x Flames of the Firebrand
1x Molten Rain
1x Pillage
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Burning of Xinye
1x Earthquake
1x Rolling Earthquake
1x Wildfire
1x Bonfire of the Damned
Red Enchantment
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Sneak Attack
1x Sneak Attack
1x Splinter Twin
Green Creature
1x Arbor Elf
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Experiment One
1x Joraga Treespeaker
1x Jungle Lion
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Wild Dogs
1x Wolfbitten Captive
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Mayor of Avabruck
1x River Boa
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Strangleroot Geist
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Vinelasher Kudzu
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Wall of Roots
1x Wild Mongrel
1x Call of the Herd
1x Eternal Witness
1x Nantuko Vigilante
1x Troll Ascetic
1x Uktabi Orangutan
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Wolfir Avenger
1x Yavimaya Elder
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Vengevine
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Acidic Slime
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Genesis
1x Thragtusk
1x Vorapede
1x Wolfir Silverheart
1x Cloudthresher
1x Primeval Titan
1x Gaea's Revenge
1x Hornet Queen
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Woodfall Primus
Green Planeswalker
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Green Artifact
1x Mox Emerald
1x Birthing Pod
Green Instant
1x Vines of Vastwood
1x Worldly Tutor
1x Moment's Peace
1x Naturalize
Green Sorcery
1x Life from the Loam
1x Regrowth
1x Cultivate
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Eureka
1x Natural Order
1x Plow Under
1x Green Sun's Zenith
Green Enchantment
1x Rancor
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library
1x Awakening Zone
Green Land
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Treetop Village
Azorius
1x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Venser, the Sojourner
1x Azorius Charm
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Detention Sphere
1x Celestial Colonnade
1x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Mystic Gate
1x Tundra
Dimir
1x Psychatog
1x Shadowmage Infiltrator
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Baleful Strix
1x Far // Away
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
1x Rakdos Cackler
1x Falkenrath Aristocrat
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Olivia Voldaren
1x Dreadbore
1x Blightning
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Badlands
1x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
Gruul
1x Tattermunge Maniac
1x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Giant Solifuge
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Domri Rade
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
1x Copperline Gorge
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
1x Taiga
1x Wooded Foothills
Selesnya
1x Dryad Militant
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Voice of Resurgence
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Loxodon Smiter
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Savannah
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Temple Garden
1x Windswept Heath
Orzhov
1x Stillmoon Cavalier
1x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Gerrard's Verdict
1x Lingering Souls
1x Vindicate
1x Unburial Rites
1x Caves of Koilos
1x Godless Shrine
1x Isolated Chapel
1x Marsh Flats
1x Scrubland
Golgari
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Lotleth Troll
1x Vraska the Unseen
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Bayou
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Twilight Mire
1x Verdant Catacombs
Simic
1x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1x Trygon Predator
1x Progenitor Mimic
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Simic Charm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hinterland Harbor
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Simic Growth Chamber
1x Tropical Island
Izzet
1x Ral Zarek
1x Fire // Ice
1x Izzet Charm
1x Turn // Burn
1x Electrolyze
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Izzet Boilerworks
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Volcanic Island
Boros
1x Figure of Destiny
1x Boros Reckoner
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Boros Charm
1x Lightning Helix
1x Arid Mesa
1x Battlefield Forge
1x Plateau
1x Rugged Prairie
1x Sacred Foundry
Jund
1x Broodmate Dragon
Naya
1x Wild Nacatl
Bant
1x Seaside Citadel
Esper
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Grixis
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Rainbow
1x Who // What // When // Where // Why
1x Mox Diamond
1x City of Ass
1x City of Brass
1x Gemstone Mine
1x Grand Coliseum
Colourless Creature
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Colourless Planeswalker
1x Karn Liberated
Colourless Artifact Creature
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Porcelain Legionnaire
1x Etched Champion
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Masticore
1x Molten-Tail Masticore
1x Slash Panther
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Batterskull
1x Triskelion
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Sundering Titan
1x Blightsteel Colossus
Colourless Artifact
1x Chrome Mox
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Black Vise
1x Bonesplitter
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
1x Ankh of Mishra
1x Coldsteel Heart
1x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mind Stone
1x Scroll Rack
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Winter Orb
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Coalition Relic
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Grafted Wargear
1x Mimic Vat
1x Ring of Gix
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Vengeance
1x Sword of War and Peace
1x Tangle Wire
1x Worn Powerstone
1x Erratic Portal
1x Icy Manipulator
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Smokestack
1x Trading Post
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Letter Bomb
Colourless Instant
1x Noxious Revival
1x Dismember
Colourless Sorcery
1x All Is Dust
Colourless Land
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x City of Traitors
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Maze of Ith
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Mutavault
1x Rishadan Port
1x Strip Mine
Colourless Land Land
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Wasteland
Crapcaster³ Survey 1
Crapcaster³ Survey 2
(Nevermind the titles, I decided to start using iterated names with the second survey.)
So, I started off by including cards I thought would be fun, then I pretty much copy/pasted Wtwlf's cube list into my cubetutor page and now I'm going to start tinkering with it. I'm aiming for a 540 cube, and I'm not certain of the mono/multi/colorless breakdown I want to reach, but I do feel like I want more than 70 multicolor cards like I originally was planning to include. Only 3 nonbasic land and 4 gold cards per color combo feels a little sparce. What color breakdown do you suggest at 540? Do you feel like there are any must includes at 540 that I'm missing?
The first survey was a little vague and lacked direction, but I used the information from the first one to develop a more specific and useful quiz in the second. Including voluntary names in the survey also allowed me to discuss answers with people, which made for some really useful dialogue and got some of the players on board with my personal design philosophy. I've been meaning to design one for MTGS, but I never got around to it. I'll probably build one out of dialogue in this thread.
Most local players agree with me, but one is very adamant and stern in opposition. I am against "dedicated combo" in cube (Storm, Mill, etc...); I would prefer to include "open-ended" combo cards that are useful outside of a combo deck like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, but exciting when they are combo'd with (Restoration Angel, Zealous Conscripts, Pestermite). I would like to hear arguments for "dedicated combo," if anyone has them to offer.
Three more questions, before I turn it over to you folks:
What is the most fun card you've played with in cube?
What is the most fun card you've played against in cube?
What is the most fun archetype you've assembled and played in cube?
And one more controversial question:
How do you feel about custom cards in cube? I'm thinking of including an extra, colorless mox in the cube to increase the density of moxen in the cube. I saw a proxy that read:
Mox Crystal 0
Artifact
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
Any other suggestions, comments, or discussion are welcome, as well!
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
Having played with pretty much every Un card in existence at one point or another in my cube, I can give feedback on what cards work well and which ones don't.
Powerful or complex Un-cards that I would consider for "normal" cubes include:
Un cards I'd play because they're fun, but still powerful:
Letter Bomb. As soon as it's cast, your opponent's on a clock and it's just a thriller every time they draw a card. Not to mention that you get to see each of your opponent's draws for the rest of the game. Side note, we've had someone receive a Letter Bomb, personally shuffle their own library very carefully, and ending up blowing themselves up on the next draw.
Land-focused (manlands, 5 colour, with things like crucible, KotR, every nonbasic, etc.)
Artifact (Tolarian academy, Tezzeret x2, every artifact in the cube)
If you're going to run custom cards, why not just build an entire proxy cube? Why spend money on the real cards? Why not use your own imagination to build entire custom sets and cards? I think its definitely a fun endeavour, but I also feel like it goes against the nature of cube (IMO: which is to create a fun, powerful singleton draft environment limited by the existing card pool). I didn't find conventional cards to be "fun" enough for my group, which is why I added so many Un-cards. I've also scaled back a lot since my first iterations of my cube, but I'm also desperately hoping they release a third Un set with a power level comparable to modern cards.
What turns me off to Jack-in-the-Mox (and a number of other un-cards) is that you have to roll a die every time you activate it. It's not that big of a deal, but having to roll a die every turn seems like an unnecessary addition. If I can, I'd like to avoid dice and coins as game elements.
I have taken your word, though, Winter, and added Letter Bomb to my cube list. When the time comes, we'll see how my playgroup likes it.
Do you think Lands.dec and Artifacts.dec (with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas) are worthwhile things to support at 540 cards?
If so, how would you support them?
The reason I wouldn't 'proxy' an entire 'custom' cube is because that would take even more investment and tweaking than a regular cube. I don't think I've got the commitment and consistent interest to make that project rewarding enough, as interesting and exciting as it sounds.
DerBK, I upgraded from 30 dual lands per color pair to 40, and I've got a few five-color lands in addition to Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds. I'll probably go up to 50 dual lands per color, but we'll see how everything looks and feels once I'm closer to 540 cards.
I've just about got the 50 artifacts and 10 "other lands", so I'll tinker around with that using 50~60 as a target number.
Most of my monocolored sections are between 60 and 70, so I'm getting close there. I'm gonna really start wracking my brain over those once I sort out what deck I'm playing at an upcoming tournament.
I plan on supporting "reanimator combo" and "graveyard plusses" along with Kiki-Jiki. I feel like Johnny should be able to sate himself when playing with my cube.
Interesting that you found Maelstrom Nexus to be so fun. I'll consider finding a spot for it. It's only one card, after all. I'll also make room for Momentary Blink.
Regarding you comments on custom cards, DerBK, I think that's a little harsh and somewhat misguided. Restrictions breed creativity, sure, but they're still restrictions. Wanting to increase the number of cards of a given type isn't necessarily against what "Cube" is in principle. I think it's simply divergent. But regardless, I think it's fair to just disagree here. All I'm trying to say is I don't think there is purpose in being condescending and saying things like "he sucks as a cube designer."
Anyways! Thanks again, everyone. I'll see to returning the favor and posting in you guys' cube threads in the near future.
I already replied to your thread, Nof, asking about a number of your "unusual" cards. I like quite a few of them on a Timmy level.
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
I get that most people don't like rolling dice, etc., but you'd be surprised at how often you choose not to use jack-in-the-mox (which makes it better than cards like mana vault imo). this is a card that ramps you when you need it (often T1), but can sit out and still not hurt you in case you don't need it right away. the dice rolling makes for fun when you might get lucky for a splash (i've rolled just to see if i could pull a splash colour before) and of course, because the mox will occasionally kill you. I used to have a "dice rolling" theme in my cube (complete with krark's thumb) but I cut it because it was too hard to force and weak. however, the one "random" card that survived the cuts was jack-in-the-mox because 5 times out of 6, it's just a mox crystal, which is awesome. (PS. i bet you have another coin-flipping card in your cube - Ral Zarek)
Hopefully your group is fun and likes it. it's not ridiculously powerful, but it does add a fun "psychological" element to the game since every draw becomes potentially lethal (aka people will try to not brainstorm if they don't have to).
Lands.dec in any way similar to 43lands.dec is definitely not viable. what I mean by a lands.dec is a deck which tries to grab many spell lands/manlands, crucible, knight of the reliquary, life from the loam, and any value/wrath cards from there. it's a deck that fixes well, dodges wraths, and wins through the grind and is 100% viable without any need to put "narrow" cards in to support it. I love to p1p1 crucible because that just makes me grab every nonbasic after that.
Artifact deck is even more viable if anything. I run Tezz, AOB because it's my most favourite planeswalker, but I'd argue he's an extremely good, albeit very narrow pw as well. although his ult might not go off as much as you'd like, the -2 is good for turning "dead" artifacts (ex. zuran orb) into a relevant beater.
I've been away from Magic, entertaining a number of other hobbies (mostly non-card/board game related, sadly) and people. Last Friday, though, I met up with some friends and we played EDH and talked Magic on the way to a Barenaked Ladies concert. I got super-jazzed about throwing a cube together when going through a collection my friend bought and is re-selling.
So, I'm trying to revive Crapcaster³. I'm buckling down and preparing to proxy cards I don't reasonably expect to acquire. Issue is, I'm still not quite at my 540 target, and a few new sets have come out since I was drafting the list (M14 and Theros, specifically--and the new Commander is spoiled).
I'd appreciate anyone taking the time to look through my cube list on cubetutor and tell me what looks obnoxious/bad, and perhaps help me get up to 540 cards. When I look at the list I get distracted by how much I like pretty much every card in it.
Are there any new all stars from M14 or Theros?
Edit: I want to add Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Do you think I can get away with cutting any of my Dimir cards for him?
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
You can also view it here at Cubetutor <---- please draft my cube!!
and you can also see it at DeckStats
Thank you for your suggestion. I didn't know that feature had been added!
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
- You do not play Black Lotus, Sol Ring, Ancestral Recall, but you do play original Moxen, Time Walk, Library of Alexandria and Mana Crypt. I'd either play them all or exclude them all.
- Riftwing Cloudskate seems almost strictly better than Double Header.
- Fireslinger is listed twice. As is Fireblast.
- Since you run Ankh of Mishra, you may also want Zo-zu the Punisher.
- I have no idea what Ghostly Changeling is doing in there. Pet card?
- Same for Increasing Confusion, even though I can kind of see how that might be an okay win condition in some decks (really narrow card though).
- I think you may want an extra Tinker target (Sphinx of the Steel Wind or Inkwell Leviathan - I play both at 450, which admittedly may be one too many).
- No Crucible of Worlds, even though you have Life from the Loam and even support it with cycle-lands.
- I'd add Hero's Downfall from Theros, to help fight against the high number of PW's you included.
All in all, it seems like a very good list that's relatively close to several "established" Cubes (but with Un-cards).
A Comprehensive list of Cube Archetypes
-The idea behind skipping out on certain parts of power are that they are not fun to play against. Black Lotus + land into Jace, the Mind Sculptor (or any number of cube 4-drops, really) is an immediate scoop situation for the opposition. I've heard arguments like that against Upheaval and Wildfire and other cards, but the fact of the matter is that you have to invest into a deck game state to make those cards make your opponent scoop. With black lotus, you practically have the MTG version of Exodia in combination with a large number of cube cards. Rather than going on about this, I'll explain my rationale behind the cards I am playing:
Time Walk is no doubt a powerful card. Potentially backbreaking and unfun, too. The reason I want to try it out is because it's a blue card that especially powers up aggressive decks as well as Superfriends (which is planeswalker control, a pet archetype of mine.)
The Moxen made the cut because they aren't nearly as explosive as Black Lotus. I haven't played with them yet, so my opinion may change, but I feel like their power level is much more subdued and has a higher chance of being interactive than the Lotus or Ancestral Recall, or whatever.
Regarding Library, I just forgot to put the card in the list! We'll try it out.
Mana Crypt is not in for the same reasons Sol Ring and Lotus aren't in.
-I'll add Riftwing Cloudskate and consider cutting Double Header.
-Thanks for catching those duplicates!
-We'll give Zo-zu the Punisher a chance!
-I think I might have been mixing up projects, I was working on a tribal cube at one point in time. Ghostly Changeling will be cut.
-Increasing Confusion was a card I wanted to try. It's prone to being cut.
-I'll consider how many tinker targets there are and add one or both of those if I feel it's necessary, thanks.
-Crucible of Worlds will be added! Thought it was already in there.
-Hero's Downfall will be added.
Do you feel like anything is particularly absent from the lists? I'm so close to my target of 540!
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
Next you can add some packages of slightly more narrow cards to make some extra archetypes available.
For example:
- the Eldrazi package: Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Channel, Eureka, Show and Tell, Tooth and Nail, Mirari's Wake, Awakening Zone
- Red Tokens: Purphoros, God of the Forge, Mogg War Marshall, Goblin Battledriver, Sarkhan Vol, Goblin Bombardment
- "Spells matter": Guttersnipe, Talrand, Sky Summoner, Delver of Secrets, Izzet Charm, even Storm (Brain Freeze/Empty the Warrens) if you really want to go there
Most of these "packages" have their own thread here somewhere.
Then there's some more cards you're missing (some to strengthen archetypes you already support, but which will be pretty shallow at 540):
Fact or Fiction (!)
Griselbrand
Pelakka Wurm and/or Simic Sky Swallower (your Natural Order targets are pretty shallow)
A Comprehensive list of Cube Archetypes
I'm going to start assembling and proxying out the cube.
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963