Say both of these cards are on the battlefield. The Gauntlet is naming "red". I tap a basic Mountain with its only ability. Does the Gauntlet trigger?
At this point, I'm leaning towards yes, though there's conflicting answers online.
On the one hand, there's rule 106.7:
106.7. Some abilities produce mana based on the type of mana another permanent or permanents "could produce." The type of mana a permanent could produce at any time includes any type of mana that an ability of that permanent would produce if the ability were to resolve at that time, taking into account any applicable replacement effects in any possible order. Ignore whether any costs of the ability could or could not be paid. If that permanent wouldn't produce any mana under these conditions, or no type of mana can be defined this way, there's no type of mana it could produce.
Now, I'm guessing this rule is actually irrelevant in this scenario because the Gauntlet's wording suggests it doesn't care about what's produced.
I've found judge rulings that go both ways throughout time. What's the correct answer?
This leads me to believe yes more so, because it says replacement effects aren't considered in determining whether the land was tapped for the chosen color. It would flat out answer the question, if it was still current. Is it?
To expand: This would also determine whether (in EDH) Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + a Gauntlet of Power naming "black" would allow someone without black in their commander's color identity to tap a basic land for by using the ":symtap:: Add to your mana pool." ability.
The rule you posted proves that the combination would produce an extra black mana, because Contamination is a replacement effect.
106.7. Some abilities produce mana based on the type of mana another permanent or permanents "could produce." The type of mana a permanent could produce at any time includes any type of mana that an ability of that permanent would produce if the ability were to resolve at that time, taking into account any applicable replacement effects in any possible order. Ignore whether any costs of the ability could or could not be paid. If that permanent wouldn't produce any mana under these conditions, or no type of mana can be defined this way, there's no type of mana it could produce.
Since replacement effects are taken into account, Gauntlet of Power produces an extra black mana regardless of what you tapped the land for.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
The rule you posted proves that the combination would produce an extra black mana, because Contamination is a replacement effect.
Why would it produce an extra and not a :symr:?
EDIT: I don't think that's correct because Gauntlet of Power doesn't care about what type of mana was produced. Also, Gauntlet of Power is a triggered ability and not an ability of the land, so why would it be :symb:?
Oops, missed that it's naming Red. The Gauntlet wouldn't produce mana then, because it triggers from what the land actually produces, because it takes into account the replacement effect.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Oops, missed that it's naming Red. The Gauntlet wouldn't produce mana then, because it triggers from what the land actually produces, because it takes into account the replacement effect.
Where do you get this from? The ability doesn't seem to care about what's produced. I'm still tapping the Mountain for red mana, even though it's producing black instead, aren't I?
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
This question has already been answered by higher-level judges 2-year ago if I remember correctly and yes, at that moment, they said that Gauntlet will trigger as soon as you try to add whatever color was chosen and will add one of that color whatever replacement effect happens to the original mana.
For those reasons, Urborg + Gauntlet of Power gives at least 2 colorless mana to every player for each land and 2 black for those having it in their Commander's color identity. But this was 2 years ago and I can't find the source anymore, it may have been deleted since.
Gauntlet of Might is also another issue but the wording makes it a little bit easier to actually understand as there is no chosen color.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
The conclusion on the Wizard's forums is different than your second quote.
Gauntlet of Power says that it adds an additional mana of the chosen color; how can you get BB if the chosen color is red? You should get BR (as stated on the link you provided).
Any difference with Gauntlet of Might? This is an old question and this situation happens a few times in my commander games because someone is playing Contamination. Every ruling thread (including this one) I've seen so far haven't been able to find a definitive answer for this. Can any high-level judge ask Wizards themselves? I don't know but I would like to get a final word on this with a detailed explanation and also an explanation about how (if) commander's color identity affect all of this.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
For the gauntlet of might, of course because it only cares about it being a mountain tapped for mana, it doesn't care what it is even tapped for.
For power it is slightly harder as it is not really defined well within the rules what tapped for a color means what it produces and what it was tapped for (tho I would say the later due to how the trigger seems to be triggered before the mana is put into the mana pool where replacement affects can't touch it yet).
The conclusion on the Wizard's forums is different than your second quote.
Gauntlet of Power says that it adds an additional mana of the chosen color; how can you get BB if the chosen color is red? You should get BR (as stated on the link you provided).
Any difference with Gauntlet of Might? This is an old question and this situation happens a few times in my commander games because someone is playing Contamination. Every ruling thread (including this one) I've seen so far haven't been able to find a definitive answer for this. Can any high-level judge ask Wizards themselves? I don't know but I would like to get a final word on this with a detailed explanation and also an explanation about how (if) commander's color identity affect all of this.
The example given in goth's quotes use a Gauntlet that's got "black" chosen, and in that examble you get :1mana::symb:
To me the intuitive response is that the trigger should take into account what is actually produced, but it was ruled to not take that into account.
Why? Because of a rule in the CR that talks about something completely different? I saw posts from you on this on Wizards' forum and it just seemed contradictory. I know that "tapped for mana" isn't clearly defined, but I really hesitate to see how your interpretation is intuitive.
Additionally, many other triggered abilities wait for replacement effects to do their thing before they are checked.
This is a seperate thing entirely, though. And it's clearly covered in the CR. I really don't see how that's relevant; apples to oranges.
I think what's most clear here is that Wizards needs to clarify what "tapped for mana" entails, especially in these contexts. The way I read it, I'm activating an ability that would normally produce :symr:... The rules text of the ability is ":symtap:: Add to your mana pool." That's tapping for red, even if I end up getting black. Apparently, that's the interpretation that you're supposed to take away.
It's not clear at all, though.
On Gauntlet of Might: You're tapping a Mountain for mana? You get an extra :symr:. It doesn't matter what it produces, or what you were tapping it for. You can tap a Blood Crypt for and you'll get a off the Gauntlet.
Thanks everyone for the help. I think it's safe to assume the ruling from the listserv is still current, despite being as blurry as ever.
because if I tap a Mountain for mana while Contamination is out, it produces black mana.
was the Mountain tapped for mana of the chosen colour? I feel it wasn't
and if the chosen colour was black, I would say it was
that's what feels intuitive to me, perhaps because I equate the activation and resolution as one action and to me the trigger should look at the result
I can see the rationale for it working differently, but that's what my instinct says feels right.
In light of EDH/Commander and the off-colour mana becomes colourless instead rule and the more I think on it, I can see a strong justification for having it work the other way, but I have to logic it there, it doesn't jump out at me as the natural result/ruling.
I can see where you're coming from. I see activating an ability that says ":symtap:: Add to your mana pool." is tapping for red, even if you get black. The ability still says "add :symr:", even if it doesn't end up doing that.
Regardless, Magic isn't about what's intuitive all the time. It's about what's correct, and I'm glad we've figured out the correct answer.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
well, what does "tapping a mana for X" mean? when I tap a Mountain, my intention is to produce red, whatever replacement effect happens.
That's the issue - it's not clearly defined. No answer is going to be intuitive because Wizards won't make it clear what "tap a land for red" or etc. means.
Are you saying that we won't ever get any definitive answer on this issue? And that we should apply whatever we prefer?
I don't think that Gauntlet of Power has ever seen any play in major tournament (Contamination neither I guess) but I'm really looking forward for a definetive answer.
This should be directly addressed on the Gatherer's specific ruling for Contamination.
What I've read a few months ago was that a headmaster judge or some really high-level judge (I don't really know how it works but I've read there are only 4 in the world lol) answered this in 2010 saying that Gauntlet would trigger and add the chosen color mana in addition to the mana that gets replaced to black. The fact that I can't find that source anymore is really a shame, but anyway, there must be some way to get this sorted out through the judge's forums/feeds... anyone?
Sorry for my English, it's not my native language, doing my best to improve both my skills at Magic and English, and the fact that there is no right answer is just unacceptable to me.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.
Since Contamination replaces the creation of R, the idea that the mountain would create R is non-existance and instead is it only creating B.
Edit: A little bit more of justification: Contamination creates a replacement effect whereas Gauntlet of Power is a triggered ability, not a replacement effect, so it's not a two-replacement effect issue.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Daniel Kitachewsky is one of the voices of the rules team
unless someone official (Daniel K, Nathan Long, Matt Tabak, Eli or one of a few others) pops up here with an [O] ruling reversing it, that last [O] ruling from the rules team should be considered their official word
of course, notwithstanding their official position, the head judge of any event is the final word of that event
Thanks, I didn't know it was "that" official (language barrier I guess, sorry again).
This means that the additionnal mana will be produced of the chosen color. In an EDH game, if my commander's color identity is red and Gauntlet of Power is on the battlefield with red as the chosen color, if I tap a Mountain when Contamination is also out, I will get 1R in my pool.
Caged Sun would also add another R in my mana pool if Gauntlet of Power is there (assuming both naming red), right? It triggers if a land adds a mana of the chosen color (which is different from Gauntlet), but tapping a Mountain adds 1R, which should be enough to trigger the Caged.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
The mountain doesn't create red but is still tapped for it...
Yeah, it seems like a grey area. I'm not a fan of situations that don't have specific solution. Perhaps one of the L2 or L3 judges that frequent these forums can lay their opinion on the matter.
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Gauntlet of Power
Contamination
Say both of these cards are on the battlefield. The Gauntlet is naming "red". I tap a basic Mountain with its only ability. Does the Gauntlet trigger?
At this point, I'm leaning towards yes, though there's conflicting answers online.
On the one hand, there's rule 106.7:
Now, I'm guessing this rule is actually irrelevant in this scenario because the Gauntlet's wording suggests it doesn't care about what's produced.
I've found judge rulings that go both ways throughout time. What's the correct answer?
EDIT: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind1006B&L=MTGRULES-L&P=R94&I=-3&X=558B293271205D6FDA
This leads me to believe yes more so, because it says replacement effects aren't considered in determining whether the land was tapped for the chosen color. It would flat out answer the question, if it was still current. Is it?
To expand: This would also determine whether (in EDH) Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + a Gauntlet of Power naming "black" would allow someone without black in their commander's color identity to tap a basic land for by using the ":symtap:: Add to your mana pool." ability.
106.7. Some abilities produce mana based on the type of mana another permanent or permanents "could produce." The type of mana a permanent could produce at any time includes any type of mana that an ability of that permanent would produce if the ability were to resolve at that time, taking into account any applicable replacement effects in any possible order. Ignore whether any costs of the ability could or could not be paid. If that permanent wouldn't produce any mana under these conditions, or no type of mana can be defined this way, there's no type of mana it could produce.
Since replacement effects are taken into account, Gauntlet of Power produces an extra black mana regardless of what you tapped the land for.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Why would it produce an extra and not a :symr:?
EDIT: I don't think that's correct because Gauntlet of Power doesn't care about what type of mana was produced. Also, Gauntlet of Power is a triggered ability and not an ability of the land, so why would it be :symb:?
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Where do you get this from? The ability doesn't seem to care about what's produced. I'm still tapping the Mountain for red mana, even though it's producing black instead, aren't I?
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Really, I'm curious if that's still current.
For those reasons, Urborg + Gauntlet of Power gives at least 2 colorless mana to every player for each land and 2 black for those having it in their Commander's color identity. But this was 2 years ago and I can't find the source anymore, it may have been deleted since.
Gauntlet of Might is also another issue but the wording makes it a little bit easier to actually understand as there is no chosen color.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Gauntlet of Power says that it adds an additional mana of the chosen color; how can you get BB if the chosen color is red? You should get BR (as stated on the link you provided).
Any difference with Gauntlet of Might? This is an old question and this situation happens a few times in my commander games because someone is playing Contamination. Every ruling thread (including this one) I've seen so far haven't been able to find a definitive answer for this. Can any high-level judge ask Wizards themselves? I don't know but I would like to get a final word on this with a detailed explanation and also an explanation about how (if) commander's color identity affect all of this.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
For power it is slightly harder as it is not really defined well within the rules what tapped for a color means what it produces and what it was tapped for (tho I would say the later due to how the trigger seems to be triggered before the mana is put into the mana pool where replacement affects can't touch it yet).
The example given in goth's quotes use a Gauntlet that's got "black" chosen, and in that examble you get :1mana::symb:
Why? Because of a rule in the CR that talks about something completely different? I saw posts from you on this on Wizards' forum and it just seemed contradictory. I know that "tapped for mana" isn't clearly defined, but I really hesitate to see how your interpretation is intuitive.
This is a seperate thing entirely, though. And it's clearly covered in the CR. I really don't see how that's relevant; apples to oranges.
I think what's most clear here is that Wizards needs to clarify what "tapped for mana" entails, especially in these contexts. The way I read it, I'm activating an ability that would normally produce :symr:... The rules text of the ability is ":symtap:: Add to your mana pool." That's tapping for red, even if I end up getting black. Apparently, that's the interpretation that you're supposed to take away.
It's not clear at all, though.
On Gauntlet of Might: You're tapping a Mountain for mana? You get an extra :symr:. It doesn't matter what it produces, or what you were tapping it for. You can tap a Blood Crypt for and you'll get a off the Gauntlet.
Thanks everyone for the help. I think it's safe to assume the ruling from the listserv is still current, despite being as blurry as ever.
I can see where you're coming from. I see activating an ability that says ":symtap:: Add to your mana pool." is tapping for red, even if you get black. The ability still says "add :symr:", even if it doesn't end up doing that.
Regardless, Magic isn't about what's intuitive all the time. It's about what's correct, and I'm glad we've figured out the correct answer.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
That's the issue - it's not clearly defined. No answer is going to be intuitive because Wizards won't make it clear what "tap a land for red" or etc. means.
I don't think that Gauntlet of Power has ever seen any play in major tournament (Contamination neither I guess) but I'm really looking forward for a definetive answer.
This should be directly addressed on the Gatherer's specific ruling for Contamination.
What I've read a few months ago was that a headmaster judge or some really high-level judge (I don't really know how it works but I've read there are only 4 in the world lol) answered this in 2010 saying that Gauntlet would trigger and add the chosen color mana in addition to the mana that gets replaced to black. The fact that I can't find that source anymore is really a shame, but anyway, there must be some way to get this sorted out through the judge's forums/feeds... anyone?
Sorry for my English, it's not my native language, doing my best to improve both my skills at Magic and English, and the fact that there is no right answer is just unacceptable to me.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Since Contamination replaces the creation of R, the idea that the mountain would create R is non-existance and instead is it only creating B.
Edit: A little bit more of justification: Contamination creates a replacement effect whereas Gauntlet of Power is a triggered ability, not a replacement effect, so it's not a two-replacement effect issue.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Thanks, I didn't know it was "that" official (language barrier I guess, sorry again).
This means that the additionnal mana will be produced of the chosen color. In an EDH game, if my commander's color identity is red and Gauntlet of Power is on the battlefield with red as the chosen color, if I tap a Mountain when Contamination is also out, I will get 1R in my pool.
Caged Sun would also add another R in my mana pool if Gauntlet of Power is there (assuming both naming red), right? It triggers if a land adds a mana of the chosen color (which is different from Gauntlet), but tapping a Mountain adds 1R, which should be enough to trigger the Caged.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Yeah, it seems like a grey area. I'm not a fan of situations that don't have specific solution. Perhaps one of the L2 or L3 judges that frequent these forums can lay their opinion on the matter.