Drown in filth is definitely a dope card and fits the concept perfectly, but I just don't see if how this deck can move fast enough to keep you alive for the engine to get working?
Seems like it can get overwhelmed and has a tough time stabilizing the board -- is this right?
Drown in filth is definitely a dope card and fits the concept perfectly, but I just don't see if how this deck can move fast enough to keep you alive for the engine to get working?
Seems like it can get overwhelmed and has a tough time stabilizing the board -- is this right?
Drown in filth is definitely a dope card and fits the concept perfectly, but I just don't see if how this deck can move fast enough to keep you alive for the engine to get working?
Seems like it can get overwhelmed and has a tough time stabilizing the board -- is this right?
It's true. I end up trying to recycle Quicksands as much as possible, while staying alive with Syphon Life, making it difficult to find the right play between the two. It works beautifully against burn, MBC isn't much of an issue, and most other rogue decks are just grind to win.
It's true. I end up trying to recycle Quicksands as much as possible, while staying alive with Syphon Life, making it difficult to find the right play between the two. It works beautifully against burn, MBC isn't much of an issue, and most other rogue decks are just grind to win.
You know what? This is pauper which means we can make this deck viable with minor modifications.
First of all -- we need to remove everything that doesn't either 1) win us the game with our plan, 2) keep us alive to do so, 3) fill in the blanks with the best possible cards. So let's do this (Sorry, bored in Paris right now its like 4am). I am not giving exact card amounts for the additions because I'm too tired to think about that so I'll just ramble.
Remove
Syphon Life is a 1-of in this deck. It just has no force, but I can see it being perfect at the desired board-state. (-2)
Crippling Fatigue is good in theory, but I think you will find that paying 3 life is not something you want to be doing with a deck like this. Remove them all I think. (-2)
Frightcrawler should be removed. It's too slow and cannot help keep us alive or win at any appreciable pace. (-4)
Raven's Crime is actually quite good in this deck, but 3 is too many, 2 should be fine. (-1)
Grim Discovery and Cartographer and just not good. I could see an argument for 2 of each, but there has to be something better out there for these spots.
Add
First things first. Evolving Wilds seems like a card you want to play. When the engine begins to run, it can help thin your deck out quickly. Maybe not a 4 of, but certainly needs to be there for this utility.
Tortured Existence seems like a good way to keep the deck fresh. Ditch the dredgers and pull the utility guys back to your hand. I'm going to say 2 is enough because once you bank too much on this card, the deck concept changes. However, I could see an argument for 3.
Lastly, we can't forget that we actually have to win. What happens if they a 4/4? Doesn't this deck just lose?? Cards like Mongrel and Werebear can help you get there, but that comes much later in the game. Innocent Blood maindeck and Evincar's Justice sideboard (echoing decay is good too) should be considered.
I know I added a lot more cards than took out, but I want you to consider all of them and maybe test out different variations. Test against aggressive decks, because we know this deck can fair against a slow deck.
Thanks for the input. The deck actually started out with a TortEx shell, but was relying too much on Tortured Existence, rather than the original goal, which was to abuse retrace and lands.
As for the card suggestions: I must have missed Gnaw to the Bone when I was building. The deck doesn't run a large amount of creatures, so it's going to rely on resolving Gnaw to the Bone as late as possible, or resolving multiple.
Pit Keeper looks interesting. I'll definitely test him out.
Harvest Wurm is actually worse for this deck than Cartographer, due to needing to grab a basic land. If it could return any land, it would be in the deck within a heartbeat.
Similar deal with Rogue Elephant. He needs a Forest specifically, which the deck has 4 of.
As for Mulch, as much as I would love to add it in, I really don't like having too many cards that throw my spells in the grave. This is pauper and we don't have Snapcaster. I can get back creatures, no problem, but any spell in the grave not Raven's Crime, Syphon Life, or Gnaw to the Bone is completely lost.
Edit: Also testing Last Rites. Delirium Skeins seems less useful than Raven's Crime until you have less than 3 cards in hand, and the opponent has 3 or more.
Thanks for the input. The deck actually started out with a TortEx shell, but was relying too much on Tortured Existence, rather than the original goal, which was to abuse retrace and lands.
As for the card suggestions: I must have missed Gnaw to the Bone when I was building. The deck doesn't run a large amount of creatures, so it's going to rely on resolving Gnaw to the Bone as late as possible, or resolving multiple.
Pit Keeper looks interesting. I'll definitely test him out.
Harvest Wurm is actually worse for this deck than Cartographer, due to needing to grab a basic land. If it could return any land, it would be in the deck within a heartbeat.
Similar deal with Rogue Elephant. He needs a Forest specifically, which the deck has 4 of.
As for Mulch, as much as I would love to add it in, I really don't like having too many cards that throw my spells in the grave. This is pauper and we don't have Snapcaster. I can get back creatures, no problem, but any spell in the grave not Raven's Crime, Syphon Life, or Gnaw to the Bone is completely lost.
Edit: Also testing Last Rites. Delirium Skeins seems less useful than Raven's Crime until you have less than 3 cards in hand, and the opponent has 3 or more.
Awesome!! Maybe add more basics to accomodate Harvest Wurm? If it compromises "the plan" too much, then youre probably right.
Also, mulch ditching your spells shouldnt be a problem, seeing as everything in the deck recurs, right? In fact, it seems like a perfect spell, it can ditch retrace cards, get you lands to cast them and effectively ditch creatures and gnaws which can all be rebought with pit keeper. I think its quite a fair card for the deck.
Awesome!! Maybe add more basics to accomodate Harvest Wurm? If it compromises "the plan" too much, then youre probably right.
Also, mulch ditching your spells shouldnt be a problem, seeing as everything in the deck recurs, right? In fact, it seems like a perfect spell, it can ditch retrace cards, get you lands to cast them and effectively ditch creatures and gnaws which can all be rebought with pit keeper. I think its quite a fair card for the deck.
Adding more basics might compromise the plan too much as basics are the ones I want to keep in play. The deck usually operates with around 6 lands in play, depending on how many Quicksands I'm keeping.
The truth is, I'm always extremely saddened when I mill away a Drown in Filth, as it's usually a very reliable kill card after turn 2. Also, since the deck doesn't have any explosive plays, against a control deck, I run the risk of decking out. With Mulch, Drown in Filth, Dredgers, and the Cycle lands, I'm going through a large amount of my deck every game. Mulch, Drown in Filth, Innocent Blood, and Last Rites also have no way of recursion, outside of something like Reclaim, which isn't good in this deck. Crippling Fatigue was a way of having some kind of creature killing that works even if I mill it, even though it was rather lackluster.
Ah, if only Smallpox was common, kill creature, land, discard, all in one...
I haven't looked at a multitude of DE results, but my own DE matches indicate that Temporal Storm is still the most played deck, and this deck is going to lose practically every match against it.
this is a very underrated comment.. if I have to think about Loaming in pauper, I think about moldervine cloack! Actually I'm giving this a shot, I also think yavimaya elder has something to say about this concept, right?
If this a casual fun deck then brew away, but I think some of these suggestions are making things worse rather than better. Many decks play bounce spells and Doom Blades. If you think this deck has any shot in competitive pauper, I would read the article by Shaffawaffa5, explaining why you need to stop brewing with Dredge and Madness or focus your efforts on getting Temporal Fissure banned. Otherwise, keep enjoying your Tier 5 casual deck and feel free to add Moldervine Cloaks and Scythe Tigers, but remember Tier 6 is a lonely place.
If this a casual fun deck then brew away, but I think some of these suggestions are making things worse rather than better. Many decks play bounce spells and Doom Blades. If you think this deck has any shot in competitive pauper, I would read the article by Shaffawaffa5, explaining why you need to stop brewing with Dredge and Madness or focus your efforts on getting Temporal Fissure banned. Otherwise, keep enjoying your Tier 5 casual deck and feel free to add Moldervine Cloaks and Scythe Tigers, but remember Tier 6 is a lonely place.
Yeah, I'll get right on getting that card banned, I forgot I had my magic ban machine turned off.
As for the actual deck: It does seem to be evolving in the wrong direction, but the right direction seems to be suffering from a lack of playable cards.
I don't think control or combo are especially weak points for this deck; these are the opponents against whom Raven's Crime and Duress are at their best. Grind their hand away to nothing ASAP, keep them there while sniping blockers and pounding in with value dorks. Basically, Rats them.
What's going to make this deck choke is stabilizing against aggro. Werebear is your all-star here; with Threshold active, he's about as good as a removal spell while still being able to close out the game efficiently, and until Threshold is on, he taps for mana. You just won't find another dude that works as hard as he does, especially for two mana.
You'll probably need to go heavily into the removal spells, which are going to be useless against the creature-light decks, thus clogging up your deck and sideboard with blanks. It's a bad situation.
You could try combining your plan with the Gnaw to the Bone strategy; that is, running a bunch of :0mana:/:1mana: cycling dorks and some number of Gnaw to the Bone to aggressively invalidate non-infect aggro while drawing you into your business spells ASAP, both pre- and post-board.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
I read somewhere that E. Hustle wouldn't be posting anymore. Or was it a dream? The power play had to move somewhere after the Pauper Gauntlet submissions were over, I suppose. Way to go, bad cop.
LordSaturn, your aggressiveness with editing decktags and order is now being rivaled; watch out.
Don't misunderstand me; I don't think that everyone should get a pat on the back for their brew. What I don't hope for, though, is for the Pauper community to be like TheManaDrain vintage community that makes every effort to (sometimes with practiced brevity, sometimes very elaborately) slam newcomers.
I don't think much of his results, brews, or even articles, but Jason Moore does have a respectable attitude.
I know that some of this is contradictory with the response I had to the Pauper Players Challenge, but even after reading Dan's better explanation of giving Pauper Dailies more EV, I think that player run events would be a better use of donated packs than giving more packs to the winner of lots of packs. Then again, I may be wrong; you guys have been a part of the format for a long time and may be on to something for the good of it. I
I read somewhere that E. Hustle wouldn't be posting anymore. Or was it a dream? The power play had to move somewhere after the Pauper Gauntlet submissions were over, I suppose. Way to go, bad cop.
So is this a good dream or a bad dream? I'd prefer to only post on MTGOstrat, but lets just say its been a little slow over there.
Don't misunderstand me; I don't think that everyone should get a pat on the back for their brew. What I don't hope for, though, is for the Pauper community to be like TheManaDrain vintage community that makes every effort to (sometimes with practiced brevity, sometimes very elaborately) slam newcomers.
I'm sure there is a good balance, that at least others are capable of.
I know that some of this is contradictory with the response I had to the Pauper Players Challenge, but even after reading Dan's better explanation of giving Pauper Dailies more EV, I think that player run events would be a better use of donated packs than giving more packs to the winner of lots of packs. Then again, I may be wrong; you guys have been a part of the format for a long time and may be on to something for the good of it. I
The goal was to get players away from the casual room and PREs and motivate them to play more DEs. The PPC has successfully brought some veterans out of retirement. Its also shined a light on how horrible Fissure is for the format. I can't see running the sequel until the card is banned. Eros, Manu and Mezzel are excellent non Fissure players but even they are struggling to compete with Fissure players of various quality. There is always something to be learned when you track results of real events. People who consistently do well (especially not playing Temporal Fissure decks) over a long period of time deserve secognition. Winning a PRE does not.
I can't argue for the sake of good or bad but there is Exhume. It certainly works to cheat out fatties but it nullifies any removal you've cast so far in the game.
The Exhume plan really wants some heavy yard hate in the maindeck, which is then mostly useful for making Exhume safe to cast.
Drama aside, I still think it'd be a good idea to take the time to address some of my concerns about fast decks. Are you considering working with Gnaw to the Bone?
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
It's a cool deck; there are obviously a lot of powerful things it can do. Can it do them consistently, though? You're going for the super late game, when you're able to dance your creatures and lands around the graveyard and back again, but can you get to that stage of the game? I think picking either recurring creatures or recurring lands would be a good start to ensuring consistency, perhaps (personally, I think Crypt Rats and Gnaw to the Bone together in the same deck goes a long way provided you have enough creatures). Try to play against Delver, Fiend, Goblins, Elves, Affinity, and Stompy. If your win percentages get good there, we really have something.
I would look at what kind of style MBC plays and what cards they use to answer certain decks. One of the things that sticks out to me is the ammount of LD they bring in against Post decks usually being 8-10. I do not see 4 doing much against these decks. Also ravens crime with nothing else is not going to stall decks that play one spell and draw multiple cards.
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4 Tilling Treefolk
4 Werebear
4 Cartographer
4 Frightcrawler
2 Stinkweed Imp
3 Syphon Life
3 Raven's Crime
4 Grim Discovery
4 Drown in Filth
2 Crippling Fatigue
4 Forest
4 Golgari Guildgate
3 Quicksand
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Barren Moor
4 Tranquil Thicket
1 Haunted Fengraf
Any thoughts on good cards I missed?
Seems like it can get overwhelmed and has a tough time stabilizing the board -- is this right?
Yes.
It's true. I end up trying to recycle Quicksands as much as possible, while staying alive with Syphon Life, making it difficult to find the right play between the two. It works beautifully against burn, MBC isn't much of an issue, and most other rogue decks are just grind to win.
You know what? This is pauper which means we can make this deck viable with minor modifications.
First of all -- we need to remove everything that doesn't either 1) win us the game with our plan, 2) keep us alive to do so, 3) fill in the blanks with the best possible cards. So let's do this (Sorry, bored in Paris right now its like 4am). I am not giving exact card amounts for the additions because I'm too tired to think about that so I'll just ramble.
Remove
Syphon Life is a 1-of in this deck. It just has no force, but I can see it being perfect at the desired board-state. (-2)
Crippling Fatigue is good in theory, but I think you will find that paying 3 life is not something you want to be doing with a deck like this. Remove them all I think. (-2)
Frightcrawler should be removed. It's too slow and cannot help keep us alive or win at any appreciable pace. (-4)
Raven's Crime is actually quite good in this deck, but 3 is too many, 2 should be fine. (-1)
Grim Discovery and Cartographer and just not good. I could see an argument for 2 of each, but there has to be something better out there for these spots.
Add
First things first. Evolving Wilds seems like a card you want to play. When the engine begins to run, it can help thin your deck out quickly. Maybe not a 4 of, but certainly needs to be there for this utility.
Tortured Existence seems like a good way to keep the deck fresh. Ditch the dredgers and pull the utility guys back to your hand. I'm going to say 2 is enough because once you bank too much on this card, the deck concept changes. However, I could see an argument for 3.
Gnaw to the Bone is necessary. Look. You need to stay alive somehow. (barring delving into some life combo with Golgari Brownscale and Tortured Existence)
Mulch just seems positively essential to the deck's plan. Find a way to fit it in there.
Last Rites and Delirium Skeins seem viable as spells, too.
Wild Mongrel and Pit Keeper should also be considered.
I don't play MTGO but if you have access to Harvest Wurm then it is just 100x better than Cartographer, it seems vital.
Elves of the Deep Shadow could help with the engine, help speed it up.
Lastly, we can't forget that we actually have to win. What happens if they a 4/4? Doesn't this deck just lose?? Cards like Mongrel and Werebear can help you get there, but that comes much later in the game. Innocent Blood maindeck and Evincar's Justice sideboard (echoing decay is good too) should be considered.
I know I added a lot more cards than took out, but I want you to consider all of them and maybe test out different variations. Test against aggressive decks, because we know this deck can fair against a slow deck.
As for the card suggestions: I must have missed Gnaw to the Bone when I was building. The deck doesn't run a large amount of creatures, so it's going to rely on resolving Gnaw to the Bone as late as possible, or resolving multiple.
Pit Keeper looks interesting. I'll definitely test him out.
Harvest Wurm is actually worse for this deck than Cartographer, due to needing to grab a basic land. If it could return any land, it would be in the deck within a heartbeat.
Similar deal with Rogue Elephant. He needs a Forest specifically, which the deck has 4 of.
As for Mulch, as much as I would love to add it in, I really don't like having too many cards that throw my spells in the grave. This is pauper and we don't have Snapcaster. I can get back creatures, no problem, but any spell in the grave not Raven's Crime, Syphon Life, or Gnaw to the Bone is completely lost.
I'm currently trying out Innocent Blood, Wild Mongrel, Pit Keeper, Moldervine Cloak, and Gnaw to the Bone.
Edit: Also testing Last Rites. Delirium Skeins seems less useful than Raven's Crime until you have less than 3 cards in hand, and the opponent has 3 or more.
Awesome!! Maybe add more basics to accomodate Harvest Wurm? If it compromises "the plan" too much, then youre probably right.
Also, mulch ditching your spells shouldnt be a problem, seeing as everything in the deck recurs, right? In fact, it seems like a perfect spell, it can ditch retrace cards, get you lands to cast them and effectively ditch creatures and gnaws which can all be rebought with pit keeper. I think its quite a fair card for the deck.
Adding more basics might compromise the plan too much as basics are the ones I want to keep in play. The deck usually operates with around 6 lands in play, depending on how many Quicksands I'm keeping.
The truth is, I'm always extremely saddened when I mill away a Drown in Filth, as it's usually a very reliable kill card after turn 2. Also, since the deck doesn't have any explosive plays, against a control deck, I run the risk of decking out. With Mulch, Drown in Filth, Dredgers, and the Cycle lands, I'm going through a large amount of my deck every game. Mulch, Drown in Filth, Innocent Blood, and Last Rites also have no way of recursion, outside of something like Reclaim, which isn't good in this deck. Crippling Fatigue was a way of having some kind of creature killing that works even if I mill it, even though it was rather lackluster.
Ah, if only Smallpox was common, kill creature, land, discard, all in one...
You are clearly being generous with your inclusion of this word.
If this a casual fun deck then brew away, but I think some of these suggestions are making things worse rather than better. Many decks play bounce spells and Doom Blades. If you think this deck has any shot in competitive pauper, I would read the article by Shaffawaffa5, explaining why you need to stop brewing with Dredge and Madness or focus your efforts on getting Temporal Fissure banned. Otherwise, keep enjoying your Tier 5 casual deck and feel free to add Moldervine Cloaks and Scythe Tigers, but remember Tier 6 is a lonely place.
Any chance you're going to link the article?
As for the actual deck: It does seem to be evolving in the wrong direction, but the right direction seems to be suffering from a lack of playable cards.
I don't think control or combo are especially weak points for this deck; these are the opponents against whom Raven's Crime and Duress are at their best. Grind their hand away to nothing ASAP, keep them there while sniping blockers and pounding in with value dorks. Basically, Rats them.
What's going to make this deck choke is stabilizing against aggro. Werebear is your all-star here; with Threshold active, he's about as good as a removal spell while still being able to close out the game efficiently, and until Threshold is on, he taps for mana. You just won't find another dude that works as hard as he does, especially for two mana.
You'll probably need to go heavily into the removal spells, which are going to be useless against the creature-light decks, thus clogging up your deck and sideboard with blanks. It's a bad situation.
You could try combining your plan with the Gnaw to the Bone strategy; that is, running a bunch of :0mana:/:1mana: cycling dorks and some number of Gnaw to the Bone to aggressively invalidate non-infect aggro while drawing you into your business spells ASAP, both pre- and post-board.
LordSaturn, your aggressiveness with editing decktags and order is now being rivaled; watch out.
Don't misunderstand me; I don't think that everyone should get a pat on the back for their brew. What I don't hope for, though, is for the Pauper community to be like TheManaDrain vintage community that makes every effort to (sometimes with practiced brevity, sometimes very elaborately) slam newcomers.
I don't think much of his results, brews, or even articles, but Jason Moore does have a respectable attitude.
I know that some of this is contradictory with the response I had to the Pauper Players Challenge, but even after reading Dan's better explanation of giving Pauper Dailies more EV, I think that player run events would be a better use of donated packs than giving more packs to the winner of lots of packs. Then again, I may be wrong; you guys have been a part of the format for a long time and may be on to something for the good of it. I
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=496372
http://mtgostrat.com/2013/08/thoughtcast-top-five-mechanics-you-are-brewing-with-but-probably-shouldnt-be/
So is this a good dream or a bad dream? I'd prefer to only post on MTGOstrat, but lets just say its been a little slow over there.
I'm sure there is a good balance, that at least others are capable of.
Can we just slam Jason Moore's results, brew and articles instead of newcomers?
"My *****es ain't no dimes they be motha****in' dollars"
The goal was to get players away from the casual room and PREs and motivate them to play more DEs. The PPC has successfully brought some veterans out of retirement. Its also shined a light on how horrible Fissure is for the format. I can't see running the sequel until the card is banned. Eros, Manu and Mezzel are excellent non Fissure players but even they are struggling to compete with Fissure players of various quality. There is always something to be learned when you track results of real events. People who consistently do well (especially not playing Temporal Fissure decks) over a long period of time deserve secognition. Winning a PRE does not.
I'm thinking of cutting the dredge and utilize Death Denied, in addition to Street Wraith and Krosan Tusker.
I wish there was a good reanimate effect besides Unearth.
Exhume.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=496372
Drama aside, I still think it'd be a good idea to take the time to address some of my concerns about fast decks. Are you considering working with Gnaw to the Bone?
This is the current build I'm testing. Side is still in progress.
4 Werebear
3 Wild Mongrel
4 Tilling Treefolk
3 Street Wraith
3 Krosan Tusker
Spells:
3 Raven's Crime
2 Innocent Blood
4 Drown in Filth
3 Mulch
2 Edge of Autumn
3 Death Denied
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Syphon Life
3 Quicksand
4 Golgari Guildgate
2 Bojuka Bog
3 Barren Moor
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Haunted Fengraf
4 Rancid Earth
4 Moment's Peace
1 Raven's Crime
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Duress
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=496372