Death Cloud is a Modern deck that is often of the "Rock" or "Junk" archetype. Meaning its primary colors are Black and Green. BG Death Cloud can also be mono black or splashed with White.W Other possible color combinations come from BW The Rock Archatype most commonly used in Death Cloud is an older unloved cousin of Jund. Rock first became a serious threat in tournament play during Urza Block after being designed by Sol Malka. Rock has been played in many formats including Legacy, Modern and various times in Standard. Threw the formats its core idea is still the same. "Midrange Aggro Control" Death Cloud first became a serious threat during Mirrordin/Kamigawa (Type 2) Standard and came back into favor when the Lorwyn Planeswalkers saw print. There was a bit of early success in Extended and for the first Modern Pro Tour saw a list go 6-0 for day 1.
The best beater in the format along with other formats. Like its older underpowered older brother Mortivore and every other Lhurgoyf, Tarmogyf loves to have things in the graveyard. Death Cloud Rock is great at this running 6-8 hand control cards in addition to Death Clouds. Mix that with fetch lands and turn two you can have a 3/4 easy. Turn three you could be looking closer to a 4/5 in most cases and maxing out at a 8/9. Making this the best Attacker and best Blocker you can get for 2 mana.
Really one of the only options for a one drop creatures for this deck. This is a relatively new card in Magic but seems to have a solid place among many builds. Using him the same way Jund does as a mana ramp or to start taking cheap shots at your opponent two points of damage at a time. If left unchecked he can often deal 4-8 damage in a game. He can also help you offset the cost of using multiple fetch lands, Thoughtseize, or preparation for a nice Death Cloud by gaining life. Against Red Deck wins he becomes a serious threat that will force your opponent to deal with almost immediately. Taking resources away from cards like Grim Lavamancer, or dealing with Hellspark Elemental. He is also a 1/2 for :symgb:, I don't think it gets much sweeter than this.
Unlike Jund where he is a option, this creature should be a staple for this deck. Simply amazing against against Aggro decks. Seeing how he is a 3/2 beater or blocker for 3 is pretty nice. But when he uses his Persist ability that allows him to come back as a 2/1 is great! One of the best parts of Kitchen Finks is the life gain. Everytime he hits the field you gain 2 life. That is 4 life per copy almost guaranteed. If you look at it like this it might help show why they are 9$ each. You start the game with 20 life, Finks helps you gain 4 life. That adds up to 20% of the amount of life you started the game with. Since Finks is a reoccurring creature he can still be around after a Death Cloud clears the field.
Not very good when your on the offensive, but invaluable Mid-late game when you have a plethora of spells on the graveyard. Great card for many build, often the feels like a dead draw early game. Very nice two for one.
With so many cards like Lingering Souls and other flying creatures in the format he could be a valuable asset. Both of his affects are extremely powerful in the meta. The life gain can help offset the cost of running a lot of fetch and shock lands. Deathtouch can help take care of huge creatures like Thundermaw Hellkite.
One of the key cards of the deck. His first effect to untap lands can really help make a huge Death Cloud. His second effect gives you a win condition after Death Cloud goes off. His last effect gives your a Overrun effect can turn your Lingering Souls spirits into a swarm to be reckoned with.
One of the best Planeswalkers ever printed. Her first effect can really hit hard, and her second just as much. It's the third effect that can go off and win a game. She's really beast, especially after a Death Cloud when your opponent is most vulnerable.
This is a new card I think can put quite a but whooping on so many decks. Once it hits the field it can put a timer on the game. It can really put pressure on your opponent. It is a little cost heavy being a 5 drop but it can immediately deal with any single threat on the field. It is its own win condition.
What can I say, this is what the deck does. It makes your opponent scoop. Do a little mana ramp and don't miss land drops sets you up for a good sized Cloud and its game over. Garruk can help you with huge cloud. If you can drop a cloud and keep a manland or Garruk Windspeaker in play and you win.
One of the great cards of Modern played in just about every deck that plays black. Having at least 4 of these maindeck is very important when playing against combo decks, control decks, and can help even when playing opposing aggro decks. Determining the proper split between these can be tough, since Thoughtseize while traditionally better, is a bit suicidal vs. aggro decks when coupled with confidant, shocklands, and opposing burn spells. That being said, Seize is much stronger vs. combo decks as well as control decks these days, so it's likely the better inclusion.
It is the Wrath of Gods for back. Since Death Cloud generally isn't a true aggro deck it works very well. Field sweepers can be the diffrence between winning and loosing. I suggest that you have two field sweeps in your deck. Even with Death Cloud you will come into problems with swarms of creatures. Often from Lingering Souls and Tarmogoyfs. When your on the spot you might not be able to get to 6th land drop to deal with all of those creatures. So you will need field sweepers.
The closest thing Modern has to Vindicate. It's a very strong card that's greatest strength is it's versatility. If you hit multiples, it's just an additional bonus. I would only play 2 because the sorcery speed clause can be a bit "slow" at times, but the times where pulse shines, it really shines in the most brilliant ways.
It kills 90% of the format's permanents, is very strong against tempo decks, and is a maindeck instant speed answer to problematic permanents like Vedalken Shackles, Cranial Plating, Pyromancer Ascension, and Prismatic Omen. The only weakness is that there are still a variety of cards that cost more than 3 in the format that are must-kills. Since Naya pod combo is still a deck, it's probably not a great idea to use decay as your only spot removal spell. Also you can not kill Manlands such as Junds Raging Ravine.
In most cases, Putrefy is a Pulse that can work at instant speed & kill manlands. The down side is that you can not hit Planeswalkers. Jund can really start hurting once they get Liliana of the Veil down.
Surprisingly looks very much like a underpowered Abrupt Decay, but looks can be deceiving. This can kill animated man lands unlike Decay. It is still a decent option for removal. If your meta is manland heavy you might want this to help keep them off the field. It can also deal with other cards you might not like very much like Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant.
This is one of the break out cars of of the current meta. Almost any deck running white and black has 3 or 4 main board. Paying 2W for 2 1/1 Flyers is pretty sweet and it only gets better when you play it again for its low 1B cost. They also give your planeswalkers protection.
Rating:
As a baseline we have this list from the first Modern Pro Tour. I think newer players should try this list and expand from there to make it fit their play style. As the list is older there will be some easy card changes. The lack of Abrupt Decay is the most noticeable.
I will be adding Forum posters best builds once I get them.
Sideboard guide for a controlish build. By Chess76.
Someone asked about SBing, so here it is. For sideboarding with Death Cloud (I'm going to use my list as an example because obviously I know that best but similar principles apply for all):
-Affinity
This matchup is favourable if you know what their deck does, build your deck properly and have practised it. The more practise the better, particularly agaist different builds.
Key cards that you need: Damnation, Lingering Souls, Abrupt Decay (Kills plating), Maelstrom Pulse (Kills plating). Other useful cards are Baneslayer, Liliana (kills Champion), tragic slip/disfigure, hate out of the board.
The key to this matchup is keeping your life total as high as possible whilst killing everything they have. Their burn hits for 4 (Galvanic) or 5 (Shrapnel) so avoid taking damage wherever possible. Plating must be killed on sight, if they connect with it you die. Kitchen Finks isn't as good as you think it is in this matchup, a lot of their stuff flies
and you need to block as much as possible. Watch out for Etched Champion, particularly postboard. You will lose to this deck if you haven't practised enough to beat them. You should be able to have a 50+% preboard. I run hate too because it's a very popular deck and extra help never hurts.
Don't worry about getting outground by thoughtcast, you win the long game. This matchup is one of the main reasons to run Wildwood over Treetop. Fetch basics g2 and g3 if at all possible since they frequently play Blood Moon.
Sideboard guide: -3 Death Cloud, -1 Elspeth. +1 Damnation, +2 Stony Silence, +1 Pithing Needle (name plating or Blinkmoth Nexus).
-R/G Tron
You lose. You can't interact with turn 3 Karn/Wurmcoil. Your fantasy scenarios of Maelstrom Pulse don't work out because in the next turn or 2 Eldrazi hit the field. I gave up on this matchup, because you need around 5 stone rain effects to win this one. It isn't worth the SB space. Death Cloud (the card and the deck) is way too slow.
Cards that help: LD, Maelstrom Pulse, aggressive creatures, Liliana, Garruk and Death Cloud. There are 3 realistic ways of winning:
1. T3 Liliana (on the play) after t1/t2 discard to slow them from getting the tron until t4. Discard their hand and ulti ASAP. Hope they draw bricks.
2. T2 Ramp, T3 Garruk, T4 Death Cloud. Hope they didn't cast Karn or Wormcoil for some reason or you will lose post-cloud.
3. Aggresive creatures backed by discard.
Basically all these plans involve their draws sucking. Huge amounts of luck required to win this one. Watch out for Pyroclasm.
Sideboard: -3 Damnation, -2 Lingering Souls, -1 Geth's Verdict, -4 Abrupt Decay, -3 Tragic Slip, +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Tidehollow Sculler, +2 Stony Silence, +1 Pithing Needle (name Karn or artifacts like Map that you know they have), +2 Dark Confidant, +2 Leyline of the Void (stops Star and Wurmcoil from working properly).
-Jund
Prebanning this was about 50/50, now it is definitely favourable. Without BBE you have to worry a lot less about being outground.
Priorities: 1. Kill their Dark Confidant. 2. Prevent Liliana from ultimating (her other abilities don't matter that much) 3. Stay out of burn range. Practise this matchup.
Sideboarding: -1 Geth's Verdict, +1 Damnation
-Birthing Pod (Naya)
This is an unfavourable matchup, mainly because virtually all of their important cards are 4cc+ (Birthing Pod, Angel, Kiki-Jiki). Stop birthing pod if at all possible. If you can't kill their pod, kill all the creatures that they could sac to it (*cough*damnation*cough*). Stall until you can cloud for the win.
Postboard life gets easier because you can actually stop their persist stuff and interact with their high cmc cards. Also, learn how their combo works so you know how to stop it.
Sideboard: -4 Lingering Souls, -4 Abrupt Decay, -1 Finks, -1 Elspeth. +3 Leyline of the Void, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Damnation, +2 Stony Silence, +1 Pithing Needle (naming Pod or Kiki).
-Birthing Pod (Melira)
Abrupt Decay is much better here, this matchup is slightly in their favour preboard but you get a decent advantage after bringing in Leyline and Stony. As with Naya Pod, learn their deck so you know how to stop them.
Sideboard: As for Naya, but leave the Decays in and take out Baneslayer, Geth's and a Plains and only bring in 2 Thoughtseize. Pithing Needle can also name Qasali Pridemage.
-Infect
Good matchup, watch out for being blown out with Tragic Slip with pump spells in response. Lingering Souls is an all-star.
Sideboard: -1 Elspeth, -1 Finks, -1 Baneslayer, -3 Garruk, -1 Death Cloud. +1 Pithing (Inkmoth Nexus), +2 Dark Confidant, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Damnation.
-Bogle
Fantastic Matchup. You have Damnation, Liliana, Geth's and Death Cloud to kill their hexproof guys and Decay to kill key auras. They aren't prepared for the interaction.
Sideboard: -1 Elspeth, -1 Finks, -2 Primal Command. +1 Damnation, +3 Thoughtseize.
-Storm
Not really a deck any more thanks to the bans. If some insists on playing it, they'll probably get you game 1, but I wish them luck game 2+3.
Sideboard: -3 Tragic Slip, -3 Damnation (unless you expect Empty transformational board), -4 Lingering Souls, -1 Elspeth. +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Tidehollow, +3 Leyline, +2 Dark Confidant.
-Scapeshift
Deeply Unfavourable. Just like Tron, you have no good way of interacting with their mana. At least they are a little slower, so Death Cloud becomes an option. It has to resolve though...
Postboard, you can get there by discarding every Scapeshift they find and hope they can't find another one when they hit 7 land. Liliana is really good here. Leyline of Sanctity is okay but is
easily bounced by their 4 Cryptics. Bring it in if you have it. Clock them as much as possible, you lose the long game unless you manage to resolve a large cloud.
Sideboarding: -1 Tragic Slip (Unless they are playing Primeval Titan), -3 Damnation, -4 Abrupt Decay (unless they are playing Prismatic Omen). +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Tidehollow Sculler, +2 Dark Confidant.
-RDW
Good if you draw your lifegain, bad if you don't. Obviously Finks, Vault, Primal Command and Baneslayer are amazing here. Don't mull to aggressively for it, you need to be able to play land
to cast the lifegain cards and kill their early creature rush. Leyline is good here, as is more Finks.
Sideboarding: -3 Death Cloud. +3 Tidehollow Sculler.
-Twin
Good matchup thanks to Abrupt Decay, they really have no good way to stop the card wrecking them. Time is on your side, the longer the game stalls out the better your chances. Watch out for Blood Moon games 2 and 3.
Sideboard: -3 Damnation, -1 Kitchen Finks, -1 Elspeth, -1 Baneslayer, -2 Lingering Souls. +3 Thoughtseize, +2 Dark Confidant, +3 Tidehollow Sculler.
-Gifts/Teachings
Teachings is much less frequent than Gifts, so don't worry too much about it. Just know that Teachings is the only deck on this list that will win a long game against you. Go aggro whenever possible. Ditto for Gifts Game 1, but g2 and g3 you should outgrind gifts as they no long have 'gifts, I win' thanks to Leyline.
Gifts is very reliant on the gy, Leyline is fantastic agaist them. Both Gifts and Teachings are unfavourable g1 but improve markedly g2 (particularly Gifts). Resolve Liliana if at all possible, they have no good answers save Pulse and Decay, which are usually one ofs. Usually they have to waste a Cryptic bouncing it. Beware of Tombstalker postboard (particularly Teachings). If you have Leyline of Sanctity, bring it in against Gifts since it says "target opponent".
Sideboard: -3 Tragic Slip, -4 Decay (consider leaving a few in if they have Liliana), -3 Damnation. +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Sculler, +2 Dark Confidant, +3 Leyline of the Void.
-RUW Delver w/Geist
Favourable if you can keep Geist under control, a virtual auto-loss if you can't. Really make sure you kill that guy or gum up the board with a lot of tokens (as in more than path+bolt can clear). They run a lot of burn, and often scepter. Keep that life total high. Remember that they often board into Gifts+Iona, bring in Leyline if you can't beat this. It's a lot easier than pure gifts since they don't always cast it on time and have a lot less to protect it.
Sideboard: -1 Elspeth, +1 Damnation.
-RUG Delver
Like RUW, without the Geist and Gifts SB plan. The only card they gain that is a problem is Shackles and Tarmogoyf (and 2 Cryptic Command, which you can't do much about). Decay is good against both. Pretty Favourable. They have less burn, which makes the matchup even better.
Sideboard: Same as RUG. Elspeth is a little better against RUG, so taking out something else is defensible.
-B/W Tokens
Damnation is fantastic here. Decay their anthems so you can trade your souls for theirs. This matchup is a little rough if you can't find a way to favourably interact with the tokens. Baneslayer is very good IF it doesn't get pathed. They can have any of Sorin, Liliana or Elspeth making Cloud awkward.
This is unfavourable, but a pair of Maelstrom pulses help out a lot if you're worried about B/W tokens.
Sideboard: -1 Geth's Verdict, +1 Damnation. Add a pithing needle if they have multiple Sorins. Add Thoughtseizes if they have a lot of Planeswalkers you otherwise can't deal with. Kill their Bob on sight. You lean heavily on Damnation for this matchup.
-Martyr/Soul Sisters
Favourable. You don't care how much life they gain unless they get into the triple figures (and even then, I've still won a decent % of games. It just takes a while). Damnation is really good against them. You'll eventually outgrind them, don't worry too much about Ranger of Eos.
The except to this is if they run multiple Proclomation of Rebirth and you can't discard it for whatever reason. Then maybe bring in a few Leyline to shut that down.
Sideboard: -1 Geth's Verdict, +1 Damnation. Consider a Pithing Needle if they have Vial.
My basic SB guide for my version of Cloud. Hopefully it helped, this took a while to type :P.
More aggressive decks running tarmogoyf almost certainly play differently.
Sample Decklists:
Jonathan Sonne - Death Cloud
Grand Prix Philadelphia 2008 - Top 8
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I would just like to say that I am first to post here.
Next I would like to say that I will have my deck lists and theory's ready for you by the end of the week.
Good stuff. We have a bit more creative freedom down here so we can explore cards/builds that might have been pushed to the side in years past. Keep in mind that the old thread was from the start of Modern.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I think Garruk Relentless should be added to the list of Planeswalkers as a option. Maybe ever Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a option for Junk style decks.
We should also point out that the sample deck lists section are decks from Extended.
Yeah the op is going to change quite a bit. I did this so they could get us out of Established. Again we aren't under the same guidelines down here, so we can get a little more in depth and more lits will make the OP.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I'd like to see some Chalice of the Void discussion. I think it's very powerful with 1 charge counter on it in this deck. I think lists were starting to show up with Chalice maindeck in the previous thread but I missed all the explanation. If anyone is knowledgeable on strategy for it can you repost it in here?
IIRC Chess76 was the biggest supporter of the Chalice, though I ran 2/2 split main/sb for some time. I like the card, but I felt that running it in your main deck ultimately slows you down. You run it so you don't have many 1//2 cost spells, but that isn't the right way to play the modern format. Sure if you could guarantee to stick a Chalice for x=1 on turn 2 every game, that would be great. But Chalice maindeck means you're not using IOK, Thoughtseize, Deathrite Shaman. All of those I think are mandatory for a successful rock deck in this metagame (whether you're using Death Cloud or not).
I still think Chalice is an amazing card in the format and definitely worth sideboard slots, depending on your personal meta.
I can't remember who it was but someone sported a list with no 2-drops (besides AD which can't be countered anyway) and ran 4x Chalice in the maindeck. This sounds interesting, but also pretty bad. Unless you get a Chalice or AD, you will have ZERO plays until turn 3. You're just asking for trouble at that point. This deck needs hand disruption and early removal in order to thrive. Sweepers and Liliana aren't going to cut it.
The only issue with bob is that you will have to make sure that you lower the average Cmc of the deck to run him. Jund Cloud wouldn't be a bad direction to look for a bob build since you could use Lighting Bolts as removal to help bring down the Cmc. In the end it is all up in the air for anyone to brew.
IIRC Chess76 was the biggest supporter of the Chalice, though I ran 2/2 split main/sb for some time. I like the card, but I felt that running it in your main deck ultimately slows you down. You run it so you don't have many 1//2 cost spells, but that isn't the right way to play the modern format. Sure if you could guarantee to stick a Chalice for x=1 on turn 2 every game, that would be great. But Chalice maindeck means you're not using IOK, Thoughtseize, Deathrite Shaman. All of those I think are mandatory for a successful rock deck in this metagame (whether you're using Death Cloud or not).
I still think Chalice is an amazing card in the format and definitely worth sideboard slots, depending on your personal meta.
I can't remember who it was but someone sported a list with no 2-drops (besides AD which can't be countered anyway) and ran 4x Chalice in the maindeck. This sounds interesting, but also pretty bad. Unless you get a Chalice or AD, you will have ZERO plays until turn 3. You're just asking for trouble at that point. This deck needs hand disruption and early removal in order to thrive. Sweepers and Liliana aren't going to cut it.
It's me the guy who posted the last decklist with chalices maindeck in the previous thread
Many of you keep on saying it's "dangerous" not playing anything except Abrupt Decay or Chalice until turn 3, but I find decks that in theory could win in these early turns (pure aggro) the best pairing for my DC list. Obviously, you need to know when to mulligan... but a starting hand with chalice or decay and damnation or finks or lingering souls or liliana has always been an auto-keep for me (and this is a very common starting hand in this deck); on the other hand, it would be ridiculous keeping a hand only with 3cmc+ spells if you are not on the play but, anyways, you are not automatically dead in the first turns unless:
- the opponent has a very good starting hand and
- the opponent has removal for your early chumpblockers or
- the opponent have a way to deal with your damnations
DC (at least as we knew it before) is plenty of options to stall but if the opponent draws the perfect hand against you and you keep a suboptimal hand, there is little you can do to win...
Said this, I do think that the raise of counter-based decks (mainly UWR midrange) makes us to re-think this strategy, as many times they have the way to both remove our early chumpblockers (burning spells and counters) and deal with our damnations (counters)...
I understand that this is BG based death cloud decks but after seeing Travis Woo's deathcloud brew I thought there might be a space for an alternative build.
The deck seems interesting and with some adaptation could be semi competitive and could be made on budget if certain (although key) cards were omitted.
The deck plays green as a splash and uses Life from the Loam to trigger Burning Vengeance. It also plays a singleton Garruk Wildspeaker.
I think if green were to be more heavily invested in maybe running 3 Garruk and also adding Faithless Looting and STE for consistency and fixing.
I also think Flame Jab would be a good addition along sideSeismic Assault which could lead to alternative red heavy creature-less build.
WE are a home to anything Death Cloud based.:D
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Chalice of the Void in Death Cloud could be called a Chess special, lol. It plays out pretty differently to the lists everyone else is posting which seem to focus more on early aggression with Voice and Souls backed up with disruptive discard. Instead my list eschews 1 and 2 drops entirely and focuses on winning the long game. My plays before turn 3 are: 3 Dismember, 4 Abrupt Decay and 4 Chalice which I think is fine, 11 cards is sufficient interaction. I run 27 lands because you really really can't afford to miss a land drop before turn 3. The decklist hasn't really changed much, it'll be floating around in the old forum somewhere.
At the last PTQ I took the deck to I went 5-2, beating everything except Tron (which I faced 3 times) which is my worst match-up by a mile.
If I can be bothered I might bust the list out on MTGO and see how it fares. Don't hold your breath, I'm pretty damn lazy and not the biggest MODO fan around.
BTW- half the new lists with DRS, goyf and Bob I'd just ask why aren't you running Jund? Shoving Garruk+Death Cloud in a Jund shell doesn't seem as good to me as just playing straight Jund.
I finally played Death Cloud at FNM last night. It was my first time playing it, I am very new to Modern and I played a somewhat different selection of creatures than typical, but don't think I suffered for it. Here's my list and notes:
My favorite thing about this deck is how broken-hearted players look when their board and hand are completely empty and you still have 3 or 4 lands, a planeswalker and a couple creatures out.
As long as I play this it will always have Treetop Village in it. It did so much work for me, it's ridiculous.
Profane Command for 3 to bring back Geralf's Messenger or Kitchen Finks is very fun. Probably too expensive to bother with using in lists without both of these creatures.
Even though my list didn't have anything with flashback or any way to utilize the graveyard apart from Profane Command, I still loved the 1 copy of Life from the Loam. Guaranteeing yourself a good recovery after a Death Cloud is so good. However, the 1 copy makes it inconsistently seen when you need it and 3 or 4 copies would be wasted draws.
Damnation: if I had a 3rd copy I would have been happy running 3.
Solemn Simulacrum: Fits Death Cloud like a glove and it just does so much. One of my favorite cards but the people who say it's too slow do have a point. I didn't draw it or Disciple of Bolas enough to really get a feel for them. Disciple should be awesome played with Finks or Geralf's Messenger.
Chalice of the Void: I boarded all 3 in for game 2 in every round and it always did a ton of work. Bought my 4th copy after FNM was over and I'm gonna maindeck 4 next time I play DC.
Also, For the OP: Its Planeswalkers not Plainswalkers. One is a highly powerful card type. The other is Boggart Arsonists.
Lol. Ah I let someone else rewrite the OP in the old thread and I just cleaned that up. Please let me know if there are anymore.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Wrench Mind is no substitute for the single mana discard spells like TS or Inquisition of Kozilek. TS can be dropped on turn one which means it does not interrupt your game flow. Not only this, but you also see your opponent's entire hand and pick the card you want your opponent to discard. Having all this on turn one or even turn two gives you a big advantage by having what to expect with the other cards in mind.
L/D can be good. I would play 4 x Shadow of Doubt. Also you could play Helldozer, which is one of my favorite cards ever. Maybe even play Smallpox.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Personally I've always enjoyed playing a MBC style Death Cloud.
This is what I've got working now, though I haven't gotten to play a modern tournament in quite some time due to work hours.
I realize I'm at a disadvantage without Liliana of the Veil but she is well outside my current budget, and I don't know anyone who would trade one. I also haven't adjusted to using a planes walker yet either
If I can get to another Modern tourney soon, I'll try to post some results.
Personally I've always enjoyed playing a MBC style Death Cloud.
This is what I've got working now, though I haven't gotten to play a modern tournament in quite some time due to work hours.
I realize I'm at a disadvantage without Liliana of the Veil but she is well outside my current budget, and I don't know anyone who would trade one. I also haven't adjusted to using a planes walker yet either
If I can get to another Modern tourney soon, I'll try to post some results.
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
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Creature Options
Plainswalker Options
Spell Options
As a baseline we have this list from the first Modern Pro Tour. I think newer players should try this list and expand from there to make it fit their play style. As the list is older there will be some easy card changes. The lack of Abrupt Decay is the most noticeable.
60 cards
3 Forest
1 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Marsh Flats
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
3 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
24 lands
2 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
14 creatures
2 Death Cloud
2 Doom Blade
2 Duress
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Primal Command
2 Putrefy
4 Thoughtseize
22 other spells
1 Damnation
4 Dark Confidant
1 Doom Blade
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Rain of Tears
2 Raven's Crime
15 sideboard cards
I will be adding Forum posters best builds once I get them.
Sideboard guide for a controlish build. By Chess76.
Someone asked about SBing, so here it is. For sideboarding with Death Cloud (I'm going to use my list as an example because obviously I know that best but similar principles apply for all):
-Affinity
This matchup is favourable if you know what their deck does, build your deck properly and have practised it. The more practise the better, particularly agaist different builds.
Key cards that you need: Damnation, Lingering Souls, Abrupt Decay (Kills plating), Maelstrom Pulse (Kills plating). Other useful cards are Baneslayer, Liliana (kills Champion), tragic slip/disfigure, hate out of the board.
The key to this matchup is keeping your life total as high as possible whilst killing everything they have. Their burn hits for 4 (Galvanic) or 5 (Shrapnel) so avoid taking damage wherever possible. Plating must be killed on sight, if they connect with it you die. Kitchen Finks isn't as good as you think it is in this matchup, a lot of their stuff flies
and you need to block as much as possible. Watch out for Etched Champion, particularly postboard. You will lose to this deck if you haven't practised enough to beat them. You should be able to have a 50+% preboard. I run hate too because it's a very popular deck and extra help never hurts.
Don't worry about getting outground by thoughtcast, you win the long game. This matchup is one of the main reasons to run Wildwood over Treetop. Fetch basics g2 and g3 if at all possible since they frequently play Blood Moon.
Sideboard guide: -3 Death Cloud, -1 Elspeth. +1 Damnation, +2 Stony Silence, +1 Pithing Needle (name plating or Blinkmoth Nexus).
-R/G Tron
You lose. You can't interact with turn 3 Karn/Wurmcoil. Your fantasy scenarios of Maelstrom Pulse don't work out because in the next turn or 2 Eldrazi hit the field. I gave up on this matchup, because you need around 5 stone rain effects to win this one. It isn't worth the SB space. Death Cloud (the card and the deck) is way too slow.
Cards that help: LD, Maelstrom Pulse, aggressive creatures, Liliana, Garruk and Death Cloud. There are 3 realistic ways of winning:
1. T3 Liliana (on the play) after t1/t2 discard to slow them from getting the tron until t4. Discard their hand and ulti ASAP. Hope they draw bricks.
2. T2 Ramp, T3 Garruk, T4 Death Cloud. Hope they didn't cast Karn or Wormcoil for some reason or you will lose post-cloud.
3. Aggresive creatures backed by discard.
Basically all these plans involve their draws sucking. Huge amounts of luck required to win this one. Watch out for Pyroclasm.
Sideboard: -3 Damnation, -2 Lingering Souls, -1 Geth's Verdict, -4 Abrupt Decay, -3 Tragic Slip, +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Tidehollow Sculler, +2 Stony Silence, +1 Pithing Needle (name Karn or artifacts like Map that you know they have), +2 Dark Confidant, +2 Leyline of the Void (stops Star and Wurmcoil from working properly).
-Jund
Prebanning this was about 50/50, now it is definitely favourable. Without BBE you have to worry a lot less about being outground.
Priorities: 1. Kill their Dark Confidant. 2. Prevent Liliana from ultimating (her other abilities don't matter that much) 3. Stay out of burn range. Practise this matchup.
Sideboarding: -1 Geth's Verdict, +1 Damnation
-Birthing Pod (Naya)
This is an unfavourable matchup, mainly because virtually all of their important cards are 4cc+ (Birthing Pod, Angel, Kiki-Jiki). Stop birthing pod if at all possible. If you can't kill their pod, kill all the creatures that they could sac to it (*cough*damnation*cough*). Stall until you can cloud for the win.
Postboard life gets easier because you can actually stop their persist stuff and interact with their high cmc cards. Also, learn how their combo works so you know how to stop it.
Sideboard: -4 Lingering Souls, -4 Abrupt Decay, -1 Finks, -1 Elspeth. +3 Leyline of the Void, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Damnation, +2 Stony Silence, +1 Pithing Needle (naming Pod or Kiki).
-Birthing Pod (Melira)
Abrupt Decay is much better here, this matchup is slightly in their favour preboard but you get a decent advantage after bringing in Leyline and Stony. As with Naya Pod, learn their deck so you know how to stop them.
Sideboard: As for Naya, but leave the Decays in and take out Baneslayer, Geth's and a Plains and only bring in 2 Thoughtseize. Pithing Needle can also name Qasali Pridemage.
-Infect
Good matchup, watch out for being blown out with Tragic Slip with pump spells in response. Lingering Souls is an all-star.
Sideboard: -1 Elspeth, -1 Finks, -1 Baneslayer, -3 Garruk, -1 Death Cloud. +1 Pithing (Inkmoth Nexus), +2 Dark Confidant, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Damnation.
-Bogle
Fantastic Matchup. You have Damnation, Liliana, Geth's and Death Cloud to kill their hexproof guys and Decay to kill key auras. They aren't prepared for the interaction.
Sideboard: -1 Elspeth, -1 Finks, -2 Primal Command. +1 Damnation, +3 Thoughtseize.
-Storm
Not really a deck any more thanks to the bans. If some insists on playing it, they'll probably get you game 1, but I wish them luck game 2+3.
Sideboard: -3 Tragic Slip, -3 Damnation (unless you expect Empty transformational board), -4 Lingering Souls, -1 Elspeth. +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Tidehollow, +3 Leyline, +2 Dark Confidant.
-Scapeshift
Deeply Unfavourable. Just like Tron, you have no good way of interacting with their mana. At least they are a little slower, so Death Cloud becomes an option. It has to resolve though...
Postboard, you can get there by discarding every Scapeshift they find and hope they can't find another one when they hit 7 land. Liliana is really good here. Leyline of Sanctity is okay but is
easily bounced by their 4 Cryptics. Bring it in if you have it. Clock them as much as possible, you lose the long game unless you manage to resolve a large cloud.
Sideboarding: -1 Tragic Slip (Unless they are playing Primeval Titan), -3 Damnation, -4 Abrupt Decay (unless they are playing Prismatic Omen). +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Tidehollow Sculler, +2 Dark Confidant.
-RDW
Good if you draw your lifegain, bad if you don't. Obviously Finks, Vault, Primal Command and Baneslayer are amazing here. Don't mull to aggressively for it, you need to be able to play land
to cast the lifegain cards and kill their early creature rush. Leyline is good here, as is more Finks.
Sideboarding: -3 Death Cloud. +3 Tidehollow Sculler.
-Twin
Good matchup thanks to Abrupt Decay, they really have no good way to stop the card wrecking them. Time is on your side, the longer the game stalls out the better your chances. Watch out for Blood Moon games 2 and 3.
Sideboard: -3 Damnation, -1 Kitchen Finks, -1 Elspeth, -1 Baneslayer, -2 Lingering Souls. +3 Thoughtseize, +2 Dark Confidant, +3 Tidehollow Sculler.
-Gifts/Teachings
Teachings is much less frequent than Gifts, so don't worry too much about it. Just know that Teachings is the only deck on this list that will win a long game against you. Go aggro whenever possible. Ditto for Gifts Game 1, but g2 and g3 you should outgrind gifts as they no long have 'gifts, I win' thanks to Leyline.
Gifts is very reliant on the gy, Leyline is fantastic agaist them. Both Gifts and Teachings are unfavourable g1 but improve markedly g2 (particularly Gifts). Resolve Liliana if at all possible, they have no good answers save Pulse and Decay, which are usually one ofs. Usually they have to waste a Cryptic bouncing it. Beware of Tombstalker postboard (particularly Teachings). If you have Leyline of Sanctity, bring it in against Gifts since it says "target opponent".
Sideboard: -3 Tragic Slip, -4 Decay (consider leaving a few in if they have Liliana), -3 Damnation. +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Sculler, +2 Dark Confidant, +3 Leyline of the Void.
-RUW Delver w/Geist
Favourable if you can keep Geist under control, a virtual auto-loss if you can't. Really make sure you kill that guy or gum up the board with a lot of tokens (as in more than path+bolt can clear). They run a lot of burn, and often scepter. Keep that life total high. Remember that they often board into Gifts+Iona, bring in Leyline if you can't beat this. It's a lot easier than pure gifts since they don't always cast it on time and have a lot less to protect it.
Sideboard: -1 Elspeth, +1 Damnation.
-RUG Delver
Like RUW, without the Geist and Gifts SB plan. The only card they gain that is a problem is Shackles and Tarmogoyf (and 2 Cryptic Command, which you can't do much about). Decay is good against both. Pretty Favourable. They have less burn, which makes the matchup even better.
Sideboard: Same as RUG. Elspeth is a little better against RUG, so taking out something else is defensible.
-B/W Tokens
Damnation is fantastic here. Decay their anthems so you can trade your souls for theirs. This matchup is a little rough if you can't find a way to favourably interact with the tokens. Baneslayer is very good IF it doesn't get pathed. They can have any of Sorin, Liliana or Elspeth making Cloud awkward.
This is unfavourable, but a pair of Maelstrom pulses help out a lot if you're worried about B/W tokens.
Sideboard: -1 Geth's Verdict, +1 Damnation. Add a pithing needle if they have multiple Sorins. Add Thoughtseizes if they have a lot of Planeswalkers you otherwise can't deal with. Kill their Bob on sight. You lean heavily on Damnation for this matchup.
-Martyr/Soul Sisters
Favourable. You don't care how much life they gain unless they get into the triple figures (and even then, I've still won a decent % of games. It just takes a while). Damnation is really good against them. You'll eventually outgrind them, don't worry too much about Ranger of Eos.
The except to this is if they run multiple Proclomation of Rebirth and you can't discard it for whatever reason. Then maybe bring in a few Leyline to shut that down.
Sideboard: -1 Geth's Verdict, +1 Damnation. Consider a Pithing Needle if they have Vial.
My basic SB guide for my version of Cloud. Hopefully it helped, this took a while to type :P.
More aggressive decks running tarmogoyf almost certainly play differently.
Sample Decklists:
Jonathan Sonne - Death Cloud
Grand Prix Philadelphia 2008 - Top 8
4 Forest
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp
3 Treetop Village
3 Windswept Heath
2 Eternal Witness
4 Ravenous Baloth
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Death Cloud
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Eternal Witness
3 Extirpate
3 Indrik Stomphowler
4 Leyline of the Void
Stefano DAngella
Pro Tour-Berlin, Day 2
Main Deck
60 cards
3 Forest
3 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Mountain
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
3 Swamp
3 Treetop Village
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Eternal Witness
4 Ravenous Baloth
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Firespout
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Putrefy
3 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Extirpate
1 Firespout
4 Guttural Response
1 Smother
4 Trinisphere
Orr Bildner
Pro Tour-Berlin, Day 2
Main Deck
60 cards
4 Forest
3 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Death Cloud
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Putrefy
3 Raven's Crime
1 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
1 Utopia Sprawl
2 Choke
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Smother
3 Thorn of Amethyst
Pro Tour-Berlin, Day 2
Main Deck
60 cards
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Twilight Mire
2 Windswept Heath
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Damnation
4 Death Cloud
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Life from the Loam
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
1 Worm Harvest
3 Choke
1 Damnation
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Krosan Grip
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Sun Droplet
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Next I would like to say that I will have my deck lists and theory's ready for you by the end of the week.
Good stuff. We have a bit more creative freedom down here so we can explore cards/builds that might have been pushed to the side in years past. Keep in mind that the old thread was from the start of Modern.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
We should also point out that the sample deck lists section are decks from Extended.
But I'll get on that more later tonight when I post my latest list with some thoughts.
Thanks for the new primer, poop.
Draft My Cube!
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I still think Chalice is an amazing card in the format and definitely worth sideboard slots, depending on your personal meta.
I can't remember who it was but someone sported a list with no 2-drops (besides AD which can't be countered anyway) and ran 4x Chalice in the maindeck. This sounds interesting, but also pretty bad. Unless you get a Chalice or AD, you will have ZERO plays until turn 3. You're just asking for trouble at that point. This deck needs hand disruption and early removal in order to thrive. Sweepers and Liliana aren't going to cut it.
Draft My Cube!
It's me the guy who posted the last decklist with chalices maindeck in the previous thread
Many of you keep on saying it's "dangerous" not playing anything except Abrupt Decay or Chalice until turn 3, but I find decks that in theory could win in these early turns (pure aggro) the best pairing for my DC list. Obviously, you need to know when to mulligan... but a starting hand with chalice or decay and damnation or finks or lingering souls or liliana has always been an auto-keep for me (and this is a very common starting hand in this deck); on the other hand, it would be ridiculous keeping a hand only with 3cmc+ spells if you are not on the play but, anyways, you are not automatically dead in the first turns unless:
- the opponent has a very good starting hand and
- the opponent has removal for your early chumpblockers or
- the opponent have a way to deal with your damnations
DC (at least as we knew it before) is plenty of options to stall but if the opponent draws the perfect hand against you and you keep a suboptimal hand, there is little you can do to win...
Said this, I do think that the raise of counter-based decks (mainly UWR midrange) makes us to re-think this strategy, as many times they have the way to both remove our early chumpblockers (burning spells and counters) and deal with our damnations (counters)...
WE are a home to anything Death Cloud based.:D
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Thragtusk
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Deathrite Shaman
Planeswalkers:
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells:
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Death Cloud
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
3 Treetop Village
3 Twilight Mire
3 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Crypt Incursion
4 Rain of Tears
2 Duress
3 Sudden Death
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Obstinate Baloth
Also, For the OP: Its Planeswalkers not Plainswalkers. One is a highly powerful card type. The other is Boggart Arsonists.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
At the last PTQ I took the deck to I went 5-2, beating everything except Tron (which I faced 3 times) which is my worst match-up by a mile.
If I can be bothered I might bust the list out on MTGO and see how it fares. Don't hold your breath, I'm pretty damn lazy and not the biggest MODO fan around.
BTW- half the new lists with DRS, goyf and Bob I'd just ask why aren't you running Jund? Shoving Garruk+Death Cloud in a Jund shell doesn't seem as good to me as just playing straight Jund.
6 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Woodland Cemetery
4 Verdant Catacombs
24 lands
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Disciple of Bolas
16 creatures
4 Death Cloud
2 Damnation
1 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Profane Command
20 other spells
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Eternal Witness
2 Dismember
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Mimic Vat
1 Grafdigger's Cage
My favorite thing about this deck is how broken-hearted players look when their board and hand are completely empty and you still have 3 or 4 lands, a planeswalker and a couple creatures out.
As long as I play this it will always have Treetop Village in it. It did so much work for me, it's ridiculous.
Profane Command for 3 to bring back Geralf's Messenger or Kitchen Finks is very fun. Probably too expensive to bother with using in lists without both of these creatures.
Even though my list didn't have anything with flashback or any way to utilize the graveyard apart from Profane Command, I still loved the 1 copy of Life from the Loam. Guaranteeing yourself a good recovery after a Death Cloud is so good. However, the 1 copy makes it inconsistently seen when you need it and 3 or 4 copies would be wasted draws.
Damnation: if I had a 3rd copy I would have been happy running 3.
Solemn Simulacrum: Fits Death Cloud like a glove and it just does so much. One of my favorite cards but the people who say it's too slow do have a point. I didn't draw it or Disciple of Bolas enough to really get a feel for them. Disciple should be awesome played with Finks or Geralf's Messenger.
Chalice of the Void: I boarded all 3 in for game 2 in every round and it always did a ton of work. Bought my 4th copy after FNM was over and I'm gonna maindeck 4 next time I play DC.
Lol. Ah I let someone else rewrite the OP in the old thread and I just cleaned that up. Please let me know if there are anymore.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Also, i see alot of decks listed with some mixture of Thoughtseize/ Inquisition of Kozilek. what about Wrench Mind?
Wrench Mind is no substitute for the single mana discard spells like TS or Inquisition of Kozilek. TS can be dropped on turn one which means it does not interrupt your game flow. Not only this, but you also see your opponent's entire hand and pick the card you want your opponent to discard. Having all this on turn one or even turn two gives you a big advantage by having what to expect with the other cards in mind.
Credit to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Avatar & Miraculous Recovery for the Banner.
My 540 Card Cube (WIP)
L/D can be good. I would play 4 x Shadow of Doubt. Also you could play Helldozer, which is one of my favorite cards ever. Maybe even play Smallpox.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
This is what I've got working now, though I haven't gotten to play a modern tournament in quite some time due to work hours.
4 Wayfarer's Bauble
Creatures-
4 Chittering Rats
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Ravenous Rats
Enchantments-
4 Underworld Dreams
Instants-
2 Suffer the Past
3 Victim of Night
2 Damnation
3 Death Cloud
4 Smallpox
4 Sign in Blood
Land-
22 Swamp
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extirpate
1 Death Cloud
4 Echoing Decay
2 Syphon Life
2 Dakmor Slavage
The general idea of this deck, is to strip away everything, rather than go for the kill via a huge Death Cloud.
Underworld Dreams can sometimes be a painfully slow kill condition, but to me it feels better than The rack or Shrieking Affliction.
I admit it may be time to change out the good old hippy for a Vampire Nighthawk.
I realize I'm at a disadvantage without Liliana of the Veil but she is well outside my current budget, and I don't know anyone who would trade one. I also haven't adjusted to using a planes walker yet either
If I can get to another Modern tourney soon, I'll try to post some results.
Maybe try some artifact mana. There is Guardian Idol, Phyrexian Totem, and the Talisman from Mirrodin.
Maybe a harder hitter such as Phyrexian Obliterator?
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77