I'm working on a decklist for the new Bant commander, Derevi Empyrial Tactician, and I wanted to share in the process with everyone. I intend it to be a deck that wins on the combat step and commits to the board early, but otherwise I don't intend to pull any punches. That means Orbs and Stasis effects. Here we go:
Winter Orb - This one is much easier to work around than Static Orb for your creatures, and is usually easier to tutor for as well. Static Orb - Arguably better than Winter Orb provided that Derevi's ETB trigger can tap it on the EOT of the player to your right to allow you a full untap. Tangle Wire - This card is in this section because alongside the other pieces and some repeatable recursion or bounce, it's close to a full lock out. Hokori, Dust Drinker - A Winter Orb in creature form is hard to pass up here, more so because Derevi can be sacrificed to Birthing Pod for it.
Bounce Effects:
Bounce is very good in this deck. Returning something to hand when an opponent is shorted on mana is essentially removal. And on your side of the board as well, bounce can return your Stasis pieces so you can get a full untap, and it can even return some ETB creatures.
Tradewind Rider - Can be a bit conditional, but the mana-free activation is matchless. It helps that Derevi can be sacrificed to Birthing Pod for it. Crystal Shard - Nearly as good as the others in a Stasis environment, but it only does creatures. Capsize - The old reliable. Some hands will give you 6 mana and a Seedborn Muse or Prophet very early, and this spell can even take the game there. Dispersing Orb - It's nice when you can pay 4 for a twiddle and a permanent. And yeah, bounce is that important here. Cloudstone Curio - Only works for recurring your ETB's, but with so many that is an important enough role. Trading Post - Not exactly bounce, but it's in the same category of internal utility. Its main use is to sacrifice an unwanted Orb at the eot to your right, then recur it with a token and an on-attack twiddle. Helps fish out killed Swords as well.
Untap Effects:
Second to bounce effects for use on the Stasis pieces are things that just let you untap through them. Unfortunately not all of them work with Stasis itself, and bounce is better for what it does to opponents besides, but really all of these candidates give you a ton of internal utility on their own.
Sword of Feast and Famine - The standard, must-have equipment for Stasis. It only untaps lands, but unlike other candidates, it does so outside of the untap step itself, which Stasis skips. When you consider that the list of things that work through straight-up Stasis is really slim to begin with, this emerges as the best. Accordingly, I favor tutors and recursion for it rather than more candidates in this category. Stonehewer Giant - Fetches the above, adds a body to hold it, and has vigilance. If Stasis is out, he relies on Derevi being played to untap himself after the first fetch, but vigilance allows Derevi to safely die thereafter without losing the Stasis lock. Phophet Of Kruphix - Great for the Orbs and for the deck in general, but unfortunately doesn't work with Stasis. Seedborn Muse - Same as above, minus the Flash for creatures, but untaps artifacts instead.
Mana:
The ways of getting Mana are pretty flexible in Derevi since you can attack an open player for it. Wipes can hurt, but they should hurt a lot less if you use the right creatures, get out on the board early and play your hand.
Sakura-Tribe Scout - Every Derevi deck should have this card in my opinion. On Turn 1 it can enable a Turn 2 Derevi, who untaps it for another use. If you've got 4 land in hand, you can play all 4 just like Exploration Skyshroud Ranger - Essentially the same as above. Exploration - Nearly as good as the creature version is the real thing. Burgeoning Green Sun’s Zenith - Should probably be an exploration effect at X = 1 most of the time it's in your opener, but it makes a lot better topdeck. Bloom Tender - An excellent card with a 3-color commander this cheap and reliable. Lotus Cobra - Most any mana dork that can attack at the same time is good here. Weathered Wayfarer - Format staple. Great at getting your utility lands and Cradle. Realms Uncharted - With three Karoos and an optional Vesuva in here, you'll have a lot of use for your extra drops when you draw this. Bonus for being an Instant. Gift of Estates - Cheap, tons of value, and unconditional. Great card. Sol Ring - Format Staple. Anything tapping for multiple mana is great here. Mana Vault - Another easy choice, bonus points for being easy to untap here. Gilded Lotus
Gas:
Again when drawing cards, the focus is on things that can attack and twiddle. Most of these creatures don't care too much about wipes as long since you should be able to draw a couple cards from them first.
Vedalken Heretic - Coming down and being ready to attack before Derevi is on board is important. Looter il-Kor - Looting is almost as good as drawing really, and evasion is great. Coiling Oracle - Probably better than Sakura-Tribe in here, and he's good enough anywhere. Whirlpool Rider - Play it if you need a new hand, save it if you don't. Stoneforge Mystic - Format staple. Can find Sword of Feast and Famine for your Stasis effects. Cold-Eyed Selkie - Good Ophidian creature with workable evasion. Thada Adel, Aquisitor - Better than Ophidian, even better with a twiddle. Edric, Spymaster of Trest - The best Ophidian, auto include. Eternal Witness - Format staple. Get something back, then attack. Sword of Light and Shadow - Great in a deck with a lot of creatures, obviously. Fauna Shaman - The honest man's Survival of the Fittest. Will probably never attack. Can grab Sun Titan or Reveillark. Coastal Piracy - Who needs Sword of Fire and Ice? Free card for every attack. Bident of Thassa - Same as above, the added utility of tapping out an opposing board is useful for the Stasis effects also. Future Sight - With the amount of mana this deck can put out on certain draws, this has you playing everything in your deck extremely quickly. Sylvan Library - Format staple in the first place, and here it's especially great for the draws where you're powering land.
Internal Utility:
Cheap utility at under 4 cmc is prized here. These are just a few that occured to me.
Thalia Guardian of Thraben - Tax the table, rarely yourself. Attack on top of that. Good deal. Reveillark - The only time you don't have two great targets for this is when they're already on the field. Sun Titan - Every time I seem to build a White deck I find myself thinking that Sun Titan is better in it than all the other decks I've made. With the ability to sacrifice and recur Orbs, it's hard to argue against that here. Medomai the Ageless - If extra attacks is better than double strike, straight up extra turns are better than both. Just watch out for the scoop step.
External Utility:
Kill things that are killing you. Win.
Cyclonic Rift - The best wipe in the format, doubles as spot removal against annoying combo creatures. Counterspell - Still the cheapest and best at what it does. Arcane Denial - Just as good, often better than a regular counterspell. Muddle the Mixture - Becomes a Winter Orb or a Voidmage Prodigy if it sticks around unneeded for long enough. Voidslime - There are some things that you just want an out for somewhere in the deck. Aura Shards - Non-creature won't bother you ever again.
Counter Batteries:
Creatures and bounce are good here, so the usual culprits are great here.
Mystic Snake - The iconic counter on a stick. Don't be afraid to Birthing Pod for it at Sorcery if it lets you set up. Venser, Shaper Savant - Mystic Snake's usual partner, with some flexibility here. Glen-Elendra Archmage - Better than a counter on a creature is a counter on a creature with evasion. Voidmage Prodigy - The best for last. Derevi says you can counter anything for 1GWUUU as long as you have him out. Draining Whelk - The deck has just enough mana and bounce in one package for this to be good enough.
Tutors:
Birthing Pod - It's hard to have a Derevi deck without Birthing Pod. Any 4cc creature in my library for 2GWU? Yes please. I see it finding Hokori or Glen Elendra most often, while being the most frequent target for the tutors. Enlightened Tutor - Speaking of artifact tutors... Fabricate Tezzeret, the Seeker Mystical Tutor - I can't find anything better to fetch Fabricate. Intuition - I'm not sure what it fetches right now, I just know it's usually good.
As you can see, it's pretty rough. Any input welcome. I can see it getting slimmer with more early counterspells once it's determined how to best go about getting a Stasis effect out.
Change Log:
First change 10/10/2013:
- Walking Atlas
- Bodoka Gardner
Having the necessary 5 land of 10 cards doesn't happen often enough for these to be good on Turn 2
- Stasis
- Academy Rector
The problem is that if I've got the bounce that Stasis needs to work, I also have the bounce to make Winter Orb work just as well as Stasis. The only corner case is the Sword right now. I might add Stasis back in, but if I do, I just need more things like Nature's Will and Bear Umbra that I don't currently want.
- Rootwater Diver
- Elvish Scrapper
- Ranger of Eos
Just not worth the slots, in the end. I have more than enough artifact kill and Ranger doesn't grab anything worthwhile late other than Wayfarer, in which case I can just use a land tutor. I also have Eternal Witness for my Intuition pile and don't need Diver.
Made a few changes, and finally filled out all 99 slots. With only 9 counters I'm still a little concerned about game-breakers in the early turns, but hopefully the potential for some explosive early draws will offset some of that and give me something early enough. Finishing power is also spread a little thin.
Seems like you are going in too many different directions at once, I too am building a Derevi, and am finding the hardest part is narrowing which way to go.
I would highly advise adding stasis . On that note what are your reasons against it.
The problem with Stasis isn't really that it needs setup. It's just that too often when you have that same setup, you're still doing better with Winter Orb, Hokori or Rising Waters anyway. The same setup lets you do what these other candidates leave undone versus Stasis.
As I see it, you need some combination of the following to claim the game with it -
1) Repeatable Bounce like Tradewind Rider to give you an untap with it.
2) Repeatable sacrifice and recursion like Hanna, Ship's Navigator used in the same way as bounce.
3) Some sort of Sword of Feast and Famine or Nature's Will effect and either the general or a vigilance creature.
4) Multiple Vigilance or Double Strike creatures and the general.
#2 requires running a few ineffective things and is very mana-intensive no matter what you use. #4 is similar in that you might not want to run stuff like Mobilization. So even if I included Stasis, those two wouldn't by my first choice. But it does bear mentioning with #2 that artifact and creature recursion is just much better than enchantment/any permanent recursion, and so any deck with Stasis serves itself well to include Orbs anyway. So the question is between both and just Orbs, not Stasis by itself, regardless of how often you can get it.
So let's take #1, bounce. If you've got Bounce like that on your end of the table, you can bounce the creatures and mana artifacts that the Winter Orbs leave unresolved vis a vis Stasis anyway. You just point the bounce at the opponent's stuff. This is probably the most important reason, I just think that bounce is the best here all around. Bounce works on the opponent's side of the table against threats on top of what it does for you, it saves your pieces from the small removal like Nature's Claim that gets through Stasis, and it also loves things like Mystic Snake and Whirlpool Rider as well. And if you do use the Orbs instead of Stasis with Bounce, you're much more prepared to handle those situations where you're close but not quite there, and not have to lose your lock piece. Because face it, when you lay a lock piece down you're going to have to deal with the spells your opponents play with whatever untapped mana is left. Ideally this is zero, but you can't guarantee enough attacks to tap it all down. With Orbs in that spot, you can afford to bounce something other than the Orb with Tradewind Rider that turn, because your creatures will untap either way, it doesn't force your hand, and then the extra land-drop effects and early Ophidian creatures put you at a strong if not guaranteed favorite to draw out of any unfavorable symmetry that your opponents inflict on you, none of which you have available if your lock piece is Stasis. You just have to lose your Stasis, skip that last untap, and essentially Time Walk yourself which is going to be a loss.
On #3, there's the same sort of vulnerabilities. If you have all 3 pieces of Nature's Will, Stasis, the General, and all opposing lands happen to be tapped, you've got your lock. Done. But sometimes you won't have enough mana or time to cast your general, your vigilance creature(s) aren't there, or basically any Instant screws with something. An untapper plus any creature is much more easy to establish, and then that kind of tempo allows you to cast your general eventually, tap down or chump block anything that's attacking you, and then give you time to find the same Cyclonic Rift/Capsize/Dispersing Orb/Venser that you're using as answers in every non-lock game state.
There's also stuff that's just good with Orbs and good all-around in this deck, but doesn't work with Stasis, specifically Prophet of Kruphix and Seedborn Muse. I can't see running the deck without them just because Capsize and Dispersing Orb are so good there. When you draw them though, the piece you're looking for is an Orb, not Stasis. And if Stasis is a piece that I'm rarely if ever looking for, deck space starts to become an issue. This deck wants enough mana and draw for good starts, enough counters and answers to not be vulnerable to aggro and combo, and only on top of that is the lockout win con. Those win-cons have to compete with one another. And say the primary method of getting that lock is through something like a Birthing Pod. I want to just be able to go for Hokori right away instead of Rector for other reasons as well. I can untap my own Pod without relying on an attack so that I can get Tradewind Rider and/or Loxodon Gatekeeper with the same Pod. Any removal there has me giving up my Stasis though.
Long rambling post, but it's essentially ease of use and resistance to removal. I'd consider Stasis in a lot of situations, particularly if the Seedborn Muse effects start getting put in against me, but for public games I expect to just have to deal routinely with spot removal and not much else.
I've been playing Derevi and tuning a deck for about a week now. It's 1v1 though so a good bit different than yours. More mana dorks, way more token production, specific utility 4ccs for pod, and more counters. I've yet to lose with it online or in actual play. Stasis is extremely easy to maintain and I run no bounce. I run sac lands and Altar to sac as well.
The 4ccs I couldn't live without:
Hero of Bladehold: 3 attacks for one on top of token production? Hero of the deck.
Academy Rector: Fetches stasis, rising waters, aura shards, rip, enchanted evening, martyrs bond or Eldrazi Conscription. Whichever makes the most sense at the time.
Linvala: stops many decks dead in their tracks.
Aura Thief: pod Derevi to Rector, sac Rector for enchanted evening, recast Derevi, pod to aura thief, sac aura thief and win.
Elendra: you got this one.
Only 5ccs are Acidic Slime, stonehewer and seedborn.
Only 6ccs are DEN and Suntitan. DEN gives you infinite colored mana with gilded lotus and Derevi and has other obvious utility. The Titan gets you back pieces that may have been blown up.
Sword of FF: stasis and pod shenanigans enabler.
Sword of BM: any creature becomes a token producer.
Jitte: counters remove chump blockers.
Basic strategy: dumb mana production get the board full of small bodies before your opponent can. Depending on the deck your playing there are a bunch of small creatures with good utility. Trygon Predator, Grand Abolisher, Stoneforge, etc. If you run out to a creature advantage early just tutor for a lock right then and slap it down. Ideally you'll use the combat triggers to tap down all your opponents mana first. You don't have to worry about your mana as you'll be untapping it soon enough, though if you go the stasis route you need to leave one blue open. With stasis, unless they top deck or have a strip mine or wasteland you've won. This causes many online rage quits lol. Unfortunately that strategy is easier in 1v1 vs MP because tapping down everyone at the tables mana isn't feasible.
I still think token production aids you though. There should always going to be someone at the table that isn't going to be able to block all your attacks which will keep you untap engine running which should be letting you do more per turn than anyone else. Just don't cough your whole hand out in a turn and you'll recover from board wipes faster than anyone in most cases. Also, Derevi is a great chump blocker if something huge is coming your way. Once your established every triggering of her ability will be a near wash mana wise or net you some from Gaea's.
I also run a large tutor package. Having what you need to get the lock on at the most opportune time is key.
Don't know if any of that style is anything you could adapt but that's the direction my deck has developed in the last week or so. Ramp into advantage by playing utility stallers, pod shenanigans, once you have board advantage established slap the lock down to end it.
Thank you Justice. I really love to see how both of your decks have the same commanders but are fundamentaly different. I am really enjoying seeing what decks Derevi will inspire. And of course your argument against stasis made me see how the deck really works. Thanks again.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for the sig Gabgabdevo! Disciples of Stax UNITE!!
Yeah, Hero of Bladehold is one that slipped under the radar for me, and is clearly pure steam. Sword of Body and Mind as well. I was also thinking about Spawnwrithe or Luminarch Ascension in that same sort of spot, but Hero is better quicker. The pod combo with Academy Rector and Aura Thief is a really nice catch too.
I agree that it's probably easier to tap out opposing mana in single player. Early enough, you only need a couple creatures. Multi though, yeah, you're going to have to deal with the few spells remaining from whatever lands are still untapped, which you can pretty much just count on being removal against your stuff.
I've only been able to test this deck a few times in multi, but it helps to have had some experience playing Orbs before in Wydwen. Derevi is just so much the same and better than Wydwen for that, and in better colors for it too. So trying to retire that deck for this and such.
Spawnwrithe is just dumb. And I mean awesome dumb. Totally missed that one. I had Ascention in there originally but I just never played it. I don't mind people swinging at me. Just means more untaps for me next turn and possibly locking them down with less or no blocker with Stasis. That's actually been a fatal mistake of a lot of the people I've played. Next thing they know they're locked down and getting stomped by token with Eldrazi Conscription on it. One absolutely hilarious card that I added that was a card that I'd never thought would see serious play is Storm Herd. I've actually landed it a couple times now. Great thing about Derevi so far is you have so many outlets to the win. Of course, again this is 1v1, so your opponent generally can't attack every strategy you can employ. The ramp is almost impossible to stop so long as you don't let the opponent get a mana rock advantage over you. Stop pod? You'll still be able hardcast what you need before your opponent in almost every case. You can slow play if need be and go control when needed. It's just a very versatile general.
Another card that deserves an honorable mention is Thraben Doomsayer. Sets up that early creature advantage you want quite well. The 2W can be rough early but we have a couple mana dorks that produce white and with duels, land tutors and fetches it often ends up being a great early play if you can land him. Can be backbreaking actually.
Now I actually need to sit back and really digest your deck. I was at work earlier when I responded and kinda just blurted out my deck (I'm really loving this commander). I'm sure there's a bunch of choices you made that I haven't given any thought to that'll make my deck better.
Yeah, Doomsayer looks good too. I was looking at the similar in effect Myr Turbine, but Doomsayer is probably just better. I was also thinking about Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree for those Seedborn Muse situations, but it's probably overkill.
I also need to fit Wargate in somewhere. Can't justify not running that card in here, but you know, I was bound to forget something. What to cut...
Kira, Great Glass Spinner: Double-edged sword. You get some nice protection, but you can't untap your creatures without first breaking that barrier. Im on the fence personally.
Odric, Master Tactician: Does more than just declare "no-blocks". Gets guys through and sets up unfavorable blocks. Might work well in a token situation. Also, 4cmc, because you probably needed more of those =).
Kira, Great Glass Spinner: Double-edged sword. You get some nice protection, but you can't untap your creatures without first breaking that barrier. Im on the fence personally.
Odric, Master Tactician: Does more than just declare "no-blocks". Gets guys through and sets up unfavorable blocks. Might work well in a token situation. Also, 4cmc, because you probably needed more of those =).
Druid's Repository isn't going to be a bad card just because it's a mana card, but in the first place, I'd lean toward running fewer mana sources here and just focus on twiddling lands with a good creature curve. For whatever slots are left, I think the best idea is to snag permanents that produce multiple mana, so that they can be twiddled. I'm just not sure that one mana into a battery competes with that.
On Kira, I don't think spot removal on creatures is an effective line to take against this deck to begin with, and so countermeasures against that are pretty low priority. Wipes are a somewhat bigger threat, and pinpoint removal on artifacts/enchantments even bigger, so I'd rather run counterspells.
Likewise, Odric I feel is not effective against the things that are actually beating you. If you're at a table where you can't get in for a twiddle on Turns 4-5 because everyone is tapped out for creatures, it means that no one's in a threatening spot where they've got multiple mana rocks and counters in hand. Then, you can bounce at least one person's utility creatures or blockers to execute your game plan.
The Kismet effects are probably worth running, and I am actually finding a spot for Loxodon Gatekeeper, probably instead of Thalia. That is one that I highly recommend due to being able to tutor for it with Birthing Pod, but the deck can have pretty good access to the enchantments as well.
On token maker's like Emeria Angel and Militia's Pride, honestly, there are a ton of things on that list that a deck could run. The questions is just how much and where you want to run them. Some are more effective than others, but for those that compete with one another there is always the question of what you expect to be more resilient to opponents. Enchantments are solid in some areas, while being nearly as fragile as creatures in other groups. Currently, I am finding a spot for Hero of Bladehold, again, for reasons of Birthing Pod and also being a good straightforward clock.
Azami, Lady of Scrolls is a great card here, but due to the lowness of the curve is probably on-par with Future Sight and Magus of the Future at the same cost. More Instant-oriented builds will want Azami, while I would probably feel more comfortable with Future Sight going into a public game because it's easier to kill. Both is an option too though, and there is obvious combo potential with Azami.
Hopefully I can test this deck some more before release, but 'Trice players have been uncooperative. Until I can get more time behind the deck I won't be too confident in making any changes.
Yeah, I have used him before but have never liked doing it for some reason. I've even used Master Transmuter before while otherwise low on artifacts, just to bounce Orbs, but I probably should've just used Mastermind there. He just doesn't excite me for some reason. With both Tradewind Rider and Dispersing Orb being playable in here, really rare thing I know, I will probably not run any more non-creature bounce other than Capsize. And while Crystal Shard is a definite performer, I can see other things in the slot of the Cloudstone Curio I've got listed right now. I also like Equilibrium there. But I can't say definitively which choice is "correct" in this slot as yet, since I still need to play the deck more.
My only concern with the Mastermind is he's pretty U intensive for a 3 color deck but he can beat down if need be and is very cheap to cast and activate. The activation cost is especially important as it still leaves you plenty of mana to replay a lock piece + other spells or to replay a creature you bounce. Plus he can protect himself too which can be nice.
Never was able to get very good use out of Equilibrium when I tried it in my Bant blink deck. It seems awesome but in practice I didn't like it very much and eventually cut it.
Yeah, since casting Derevi with the activation doesn't trigger Equilibrium, then it's going to be kind of corner case card for when you already have something like Crystal Shard. I played it for a while in Wydwen, and it was good there when mana was good, but it's probably going to be inconsistent here.
Medomai the Ageless - If extra attacks is better than double strike, straight up extra turns are better than both. Just watch out for the scoop step.
Rofl. Nice deck. Do you think it's possible/good to play this deck with a more pronounced Stax strategy? You could play GAAIV, Loxodon Gatekeeper, both tutorable with Birthing Pod and Derevi, Gaddock Teeg and such cards to oppress the board. Maybe a bit too slow?
I've been looking at the lists and discussion taking place here and I like a lot of what I see. It's inherently powerful, and upon my first thoughts, I feel like Dropping a bunch of evasive weenies and locking down the board with an ord or a stasis is the most powerful form the deck can take. I'm also seeing a lot of other synergies that can take place with this general:
Aura Shards: with Birdman, you pay 4 to nuke an artifact or enchantment repeatedly Voidmage Prodigy: for 1GWUUU you have access to a recurrable counterspell. Food Chain: by eating your bird, you can drop a lot bigger creatures, and you could use your general as a recurrable Black Lotus I've always wanted to play this just as a permenant removal to creatures I steal, and this gives me a huge reason to.
This card breaks a lot of set rules and opens up a whole slew of deck construction space not previously seen before. I'm gonna enjoy building this general to take tables apart.
Rofl. Nice deck. Do you think it's possible/good to play this deck with a more pronounced Stax strategy? You could play GAAIV, Loxodon Gatekeeper, both tutorable with Birthing Pod and Derevi, Gaddock Teeg and such cards to oppress the board. Maybe a bit too slow?
I am probably going to cut Thalia for Loxodon Gatekeeper, and GAAIV is certainly a good option for tax in these colors. I think tax is generally quite hit and miss in this format though. If it comes out of the Command Zone like GAAIV in his own deck, that is one thing, but tax effects usually need to accumulate or hook up with sacrifice or discard effects to be good. And it is just very hard to string together a consistent draw.
But here, essentially the role that all these fill is to protect yourself against the Naturalize'es and Nature's Claim effects while you have a Winter Orb out. Orb down, an opponent can untap a land, play a land, then stick a 2cc removal spell on your lock pieces. With a tax effect out, the idea is that they still have to build up to 3 mana to pay the tax, and when you get the turn back you can just tap down any lands that got played with your attack triggers.
The importance of being able to do this though is lower because the preferred routes of response to removal in my mind are to bounce your stuff to save it, or to set up a counterspell engine. Still, tax is probably an important niche effect for the deck to be able to hit somewhere in the 99, but not the most important effect to have in an opener. Consequently, there are a lot of different things to use here, but I wouldn't overload on it. My opinion is that the Kismet effects are probably the best for this. GAAIV though is always worth running for his mana, and Kaalia is good too. I just wouldn't cut bounce or counterspells for any of it, and it's also important for the deck to have enough mana, draw and deck access to set up. So, I'm fairly sure they'd work out decent, but are not necessary.
On Gaddock Teeg, he is a card that I'm always on the fence about running. On the one hand, he is very good against most control decks, and a lot of ramp decks. On the other hand, he is not exceptionally good against anything else. It's just that you see so much of that kind of deck in EDH. All in all, most of the things the deck hates that he shuts down is stuff like Austere Command. You can stand to lose your creatures, but you don't want to lose your non-creatures. So there's other stuff in here to respond to pinpoint removal like Beast Within, but he is worth considering, as are cards like Privileged Position. Some of the draw density could probably be cut for some of this, if necessary.
Food Chain: by eating your bird, you can drop a lot bigger creatures, and you could use your general as a recurrable Black Lotus I've always wanted to play this just as a permenant removal to creatures I steal, and this gives me a huge reason to.
DUDE!!! You are a genius, I never thought of using Food Chain for exiling stolen creatures. THANKS!!! Its definitely going in mine.
And now a totally different question; what are the deck's weaknesses?
I don't know for sure, and probably won't for sure until I can get more testing in after the MODO release. There are a few things on my mind though.
One, I would like the counter density to be around 12 in order to really keep those "combo decks" in check. Particularly without B for tutors, if you sit down against some Doomsday or Hermit Druid deck it is hard to guarantee a usable counterspell by turn 5. It depends on how strong you want to be against that though, since a lot of people consider any game-breaker before Turn 6 to be anti-social play. Even after as well, Storm combo can be impossible to counter and doesn't need a lot of mana to set up. The usual combos like Tooth and Nail or Palinchron though should give you more than enough time to deal with them, if you stick some mana denial through their counters.
Also, the deck doesn't have any graveyard hate right now, since my experience is that mana denial is enough to shut down most forms of recursion. A lot of those things that mana denial doesn't get as well are Reanimate's onto power creatures in the bin, and you should be pulling enough mana on the board to be able to cast a Capsize against a lot of resolved threats. There just might be graveyard-based combos here and there like Worldgorger Dragon that need more direct answers.
Otherwise, just any strong deck targeting you from the outset who is on a better draw. Mind Twist for 5 on Turn 3 is pretty hard to recover from, particularly when backed up by aggro. Some setup like Grand Abolisher and Lightning Greaves out of a Rafiq of the Many deck is difficult to prevent attacking you, though you can usually stop just Greaves by tapping down the attacker with Derevi. Artifact removal stops Voltron aggro though, and Aura Shards is in the deck.
Jhoira of the Ghitu, Thada Adel, Adel Acquisitor, and some Zur, the Enchanter decks usually give prison decks a lot of trouble as well. Small removal for early utility creatures is something that it's hard to free up slots for, given that you're running so much internal utility. It relies on the other players to step up, and they might not do that when they know that you're playing a prison deck.
All of which are also in my Derevi build. I highly recommend Lux Cannon as well. It blows apart whole fields during the combat step. Next to Food Chain it's my favorite piece of Derevi tech.
How does that work? I only see it getting two tokens. Is there a way to gain more than one extra token during a combat phase?
Fast combo decks that can vomit out mana rocks and stabilize before your commander sticks. Sharuum, Oona, and Ghave have all given my Derevi list hell online.
Food Chain - I don't see this card's usefulness being much more than a sac outlet, unless the creature curve is a lot higher than in my build. With only a few 5cc and 6cc creatures in the list, maybe one will be in the opening hand, then you're not really getting any acceleration or yield out of it. If a sac outlet is wanted to go with theft effects or something like that, I'd run the lands and then Martyr's Cause.
Lux Cannon - This one is going to depend on how many token producers your build has, the other ways you have of dealing with permanents, and the other uses for your untap effects. In the abstract, the twiddle triggers used on the Cannon are roughly equal to 4 a pop. If you've got the typical board of 3'ish creatures around Turn 4, then the Cannon is eating all of your twiddle effects. Of course if you've got a board of 7'ish tokens, then you've got the budget for the Cannon. Otherwise if you're sticking a lock piece with only a couple creatures out, then a lot of your untaps are going into tapping down opposing lands, and then untapping your mana so that you can start to tutor up and pay for your engine pieces like Birthing Pod and your big answer cards like Cyclonic Rift. When you do reach your setup, your problems in dealing with permanents are basically over besides. Basically the principle is that this deck is more afraid of having its lock pieces killed than having scary permanents show up on the board, since resolving and protecting the lock pieces allows the deck to deal with everything else.
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1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Skyshroud Ranger
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Exploration
1 Burgeoning
2 Winter Orb
2 Bloom Tender
2 Lotus Cobra
2 Gift of Estates
2 Looter il-Kor
2 Vedalken Heretic
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Whirlpool Rider
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
2 Voidmage Prodigy
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Sylvan Library
2 Counterspell
2 Muddle the Mixture
3 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Static Orb
3 Tangle Wire
3 Crystal Shard
3 Fabricate
3 Intuition
3 Realms Uncharted
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Thada Adel, Aquisitor
3 Eternal Witness
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Capsize
3 Voidslime
3 Spell Crumple
3 Cloudstone Curio
3 Aura Shards
4 Hokori, Dust Drinker
4 Tradewind Rider
4 Birthing Pod
4 Coastal Piracy
4 Bident of Thassa
4 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Mystic Snake
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Trading Post
5 Prophet of Kruphix
5 Seedborn Muse
5 Stonehewer Giant
5 Tezzeret, the Seeker
5 Dispersing Orb
5 Reveillark
5 Gilded Lotus
5 Future Sight
6 Sun Titan
6 Medomai the Ageless
6 Draining Whelk
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Phyrexia’s Core
1 Seaside Haven
3x Ravnica Karoos
29 Fetches, Duals, Others
1 Exploration
1 Burgeoning
1 Skyshroud Ranger
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
2 Bloom Tender
2 Lotus Cobra
2 Gift of Estates
2 Coiling Oracle
3 Realms Uncharted
5 Gilded Lotus
2 Winter Orb
3 Static Orb
3 Tangle Wire
4 Hokori, Dust Drinker
3 Crystal Shard
3 Capsize
3 Cloudstone Curio
4 Tradewind Rider
5 Dispersing Orb
5 Prophet of Kruphix
5 Seedborn Muse
5 Stonehewer Giant
2 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Mystic Snake
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
6 Draining Whelk
4 Trading Post
5 Reveillark
6 Sun Titan
6 Medomai the Ageless
2 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Counterspell
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Arcane Denial
3 Voidslime
3 Aura Shards
2 Looter il-Kor
2 Vedalken Heretic
2 Whirlpool Rider
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Sylvan Library
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Thada Adel, Aquisitor
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3 Eternal Witness
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Coastal Piracy
4 Bident of Thassa
5 Future Sight
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Fabricate
3 Intuition
4 Birthing Pod
5 Tezzeret, the Seeker
Land: ~36?
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Phyrexia’s Core
1 Seaside Haven
3x Ravnica Karoos
29 Fetches, Duals, Others
Card Explanations:
As you can see, it's pretty rough. Any input welcome. I can see it getting slimmer with more early counterspells once it's determined how to best go about getting a Stasis effect out.
Change Log:
First change 10/10/2013:
- Walking Atlas
- Bodoka Gardner
Having the necessary 5 land of 10 cards doesn't happen often enough for these to be good on Turn 2
- Stasis
- Academy Rector
The problem is that if I've got the bounce that Stasis needs to work, I also have the bounce to make Winter Orb work just as well as Stasis. The only corner case is the Sword right now. I might add Stasis back in, but if I do, I just need more things like Nature's Will and Bear Umbra that I don't currently want.
- Rootwater Diver
- Elvish Scrapper
- Ranger of Eos
Just not worth the slots, in the end. I have more than enough artifact kill and Ranger doesn't grab anything worthwhile late other than Wayfarer, in which case I can just use a land tutor. I also have Eternal Witness for my Intuition pile and don't need Diver.
- Fact or Fiction
I have a few other high-volume draws that I want to try first.
- Grim Monolith
Great card, it's just that colorless mana isn't as useful here as it is other places.
- Tithe
It's a bit cross-purposes with the extra land drop effects.
- Caustic Wasps
- Trygon Predator
Good, but not as good as Aura Shards
In:
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Sword of Light and Shadow
Capsize
Cyclonic Rift
Gilded Lotus
Exploration
Burgeoning
Future Sight
Sylvan Library
Trading Post
Counterspell
Muddle the Mixture
Voidslime
Arcane Denial
Draining Whelk
Cloudstone Curio
Aura Shards
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
The problem with Stasis isn't really that it needs setup. It's just that too often when you have that same setup, you're still doing better with Winter Orb, Hokori or Rising Waters anyway. The same setup lets you do what these other candidates leave undone versus Stasis.
As I see it, you need some combination of the following to claim the game with it -
1) Repeatable Bounce like Tradewind Rider to give you an untap with it.
2) Repeatable sacrifice and recursion like Hanna, Ship's Navigator used in the same way as bounce.
3) Some sort of Sword of Feast and Famine or Nature's Will effect and either the general or a vigilance creature.
4) Multiple Vigilance or Double Strike creatures and the general.
#2 requires running a few ineffective things and is very mana-intensive no matter what you use. #4 is similar in that you might not want to run stuff like Mobilization. So even if I included Stasis, those two wouldn't by my first choice. But it does bear mentioning with #2 that artifact and creature recursion is just much better than enchantment/any permanent recursion, and so any deck with Stasis serves itself well to include Orbs anyway. So the question is between both and just Orbs, not Stasis by itself, regardless of how often you can get it.
So let's take #1, bounce. If you've got Bounce like that on your end of the table, you can bounce the creatures and mana artifacts that the Winter Orbs leave unresolved vis a vis Stasis anyway. You just point the bounce at the opponent's stuff. This is probably the most important reason, I just think that bounce is the best here all around. Bounce works on the opponent's side of the table against threats on top of what it does for you, it saves your pieces from the small removal like Nature's Claim that gets through Stasis, and it also loves things like Mystic Snake and Whirlpool Rider as well. And if you do use the Orbs instead of Stasis with Bounce, you're much more prepared to handle those situations where you're close but not quite there, and not have to lose your lock piece. Because face it, when you lay a lock piece down you're going to have to deal with the spells your opponents play with whatever untapped mana is left. Ideally this is zero, but you can't guarantee enough attacks to tap it all down. With Orbs in that spot, you can afford to bounce something other than the Orb with Tradewind Rider that turn, because your creatures will untap either way, it doesn't force your hand, and then the extra land-drop effects and early Ophidian creatures put you at a strong if not guaranteed favorite to draw out of any unfavorable symmetry that your opponents inflict on you, none of which you have available if your lock piece is Stasis. You just have to lose your Stasis, skip that last untap, and essentially Time Walk yourself which is going to be a loss.
On #3, there's the same sort of vulnerabilities. If you have all 3 pieces of Nature's Will, Stasis, the General, and all opposing lands happen to be tapped, you've got your lock. Done. But sometimes you won't have enough mana or time to cast your general, your vigilance creature(s) aren't there, or basically any Instant screws with something. An untapper plus any creature is much more easy to establish, and then that kind of tempo allows you to cast your general eventually, tap down or chump block anything that's attacking you, and then give you time to find the same Cyclonic Rift/Capsize/Dispersing Orb/Venser that you're using as answers in every non-lock game state.
There's also stuff that's just good with Orbs and good all-around in this deck, but doesn't work with Stasis, specifically Prophet of Kruphix and Seedborn Muse. I can't see running the deck without them just because Capsize and Dispersing Orb are so good there. When you draw them though, the piece you're looking for is an Orb, not Stasis. And if Stasis is a piece that I'm rarely if ever looking for, deck space starts to become an issue. This deck wants enough mana and draw for good starts, enough counters and answers to not be vulnerable to aggro and combo, and only on top of that is the lockout win con. Those win-cons have to compete with one another. And say the primary method of getting that lock is through something like a Birthing Pod. I want to just be able to go for Hokori right away instead of Rector for other reasons as well. I can untap my own Pod without relying on an attack so that I can get Tradewind Rider and/or Loxodon Gatekeeper with the same Pod. Any removal there has me giving up my Stasis though.
Long rambling post, but it's essentially ease of use and resistance to removal. I'd consider Stasis in a lot of situations, particularly if the Seedborn Muse effects start getting put in against me, but for public games I expect to just have to deal routinely with spot removal and not much else.
The 4ccs I couldn't live without:
Hero of Bladehold: 3 attacks for one on top of token production? Hero of the deck.
Academy Rector: Fetches stasis, rising waters, aura shards, rip, enchanted evening, martyrs bond or Eldrazi Conscription. Whichever makes the most sense at the time.
Linvala: stops many decks dead in their tracks.
Aura Thief: pod Derevi to Rector, sac Rector for enchanted evening, recast Derevi, pod to aura thief, sac aura thief and win.
Elendra: you got this one.
Only 5ccs are Acidic Slime, stonehewer and seedborn.
Only 6ccs are DEN and Suntitan. DEN gives you infinite colored mana with gilded lotus and Derevi and has other obvious utility. The Titan gets you back pieces that may have been blown up.
Sword of FF: stasis and pod shenanigans enabler.
Sword of BM: any creature becomes a token producer.
Jitte: counters remove chump blockers.
Basic strategy: dumb mana production get the board full of small bodies before your opponent can. Depending on the deck your playing there are a bunch of small creatures with good utility. Trygon Predator, Grand Abolisher, Stoneforge, etc. If you run out to a creature advantage early just tutor for a lock right then and slap it down. Ideally you'll use the combat triggers to tap down all your opponents mana first. You don't have to worry about your mana as you'll be untapping it soon enough, though if you go the stasis route you need to leave one blue open. With stasis, unless they top deck or have a strip mine or wasteland you've won. This causes many online rage quits lol. Unfortunately that strategy is easier in 1v1 vs MP because tapping down everyone at the tables mana isn't feasible.
I still think token production aids you though. There should always going to be someone at the table that isn't going to be able to block all your attacks which will keep you untap engine running which should be letting you do more per turn than anyone else. Just don't cough your whole hand out in a turn and you'll recover from board wipes faster than anyone in most cases. Also, Derevi is a great chump blocker if something huge is coming your way. Once your established every triggering of her ability will be a near wash mana wise or net you some from Gaea's.
I also run a large tutor package. Having what you need to get the lock on at the most opportune time is key.
Don't know if any of that style is anything you could adapt but that's the direction my deck has developed in the last week or so. Ramp into advantage by playing utility stallers, pod shenanigans, once you have board advantage established slap the lock down to end it.
Yeah, Hero of Bladehold is one that slipped under the radar for me, and is clearly pure steam. Sword of Body and Mind as well. I was also thinking about Spawnwrithe or Luminarch Ascension in that same sort of spot, but Hero is better quicker. The pod combo with Academy Rector and Aura Thief is a really nice catch too.
I agree that it's probably easier to tap out opposing mana in single player. Early enough, you only need a couple creatures. Multi though, yeah, you're going to have to deal with the few spells remaining from whatever lands are still untapped, which you can pretty much just count on being removal against your stuff.
I've only been able to test this deck a few times in multi, but it helps to have had some experience playing Orbs before in Wydwen. Derevi is just so much the same and better than Wydwen for that, and in better colors for it too. So trying to retire that deck for this and such.
Another card that deserves an honorable mention is Thraben Doomsayer. Sets up that early creature advantage you want quite well. The 2W can be rough early but we have a couple mana dorks that produce white and with duels, land tutors and fetches it often ends up being a great early play if you can land him. Can be backbreaking actually.
Now I actually need to sit back and really digest your deck. I was at work earlier when I responded and kinda just blurted out my deck (I'm really loving this commander). I'm sure there's a bunch of choices you made that I haven't given any thought to that'll make my deck better.
I also need to fit Wargate in somewhere. Can't justify not running that card in here, but you know, I was bound to forget something. What to cut...
I am also debating using Kismet, Frozen AEther and Blind Obedience. Ive found Stonybrook Schoolmaster coupled with Azami, Lady of the Scrolls to be a devastating combo. If you add Presence of Gond, you add another way to abuse Stonybrook. Instead of a draw though, you get two tokens for the price of one.
Druid's Repository: Attack with dudes, get mana. seems decent.
Kira, Great Glass Spinner: Double-edged sword. You get some nice protection, but you can't untap your creatures without first breaking that barrier. Im on the fence personally.
Odric, Master Tactician: Does more than just declare "no-blocks". Gets guys through and sets up unfavorable blocks. Might work well in a token situation. Also, 4cmc, because you probably needed more of those =).
Also, what do you think about Geist-Honored Monk, Scion of Vitu-Ghazi, Emeria Angel, and Requiem Angel in the deck. Good bodies making evasive dudes.
Druid's Repository isn't going to be a bad card just because it's a mana card, but in the first place, I'd lean toward running fewer mana sources here and just focus on twiddling lands with a good creature curve. For whatever slots are left, I think the best idea is to snag permanents that produce multiple mana, so that they can be twiddled. I'm just not sure that one mana into a battery competes with that.
On Kira, I don't think spot removal on creatures is an effective line to take against this deck to begin with, and so countermeasures against that are pretty low priority. Wipes are a somewhat bigger threat, and pinpoint removal on artifacts/enchantments even bigger, so I'd rather run counterspells.
Likewise, Odric I feel is not effective against the things that are actually beating you. If you're at a table where you can't get in for a twiddle on Turns 4-5 because everyone is tapped out for creatures, it means that no one's in a threatening spot where they've got multiple mana rocks and counters in hand. Then, you can bounce at least one person's utility creatures or blockers to execute your game plan.
The Kismet effects are probably worth running, and I am actually finding a spot for Loxodon Gatekeeper, probably instead of Thalia. That is one that I highly recommend due to being able to tutor for it with Birthing Pod, but the deck can have pretty good access to the enchantments as well.
On token maker's like Emeria Angel and Militia's Pride, honestly, there are a ton of things on that list that a deck could run. The questions is just how much and where you want to run them. Some are more effective than others, but for those that compete with one another there is always the question of what you expect to be more resilient to opponents. Enchantments are solid in some areas, while being nearly as fragile as creatures in other groups. Currently, I am finding a spot for Hero of Bladehold, again, for reasons of Birthing Pod and also being a good straightforward clock.
Azami, Lady of Scrolls is a great card here, but due to the lowness of the curve is probably on-par with Future Sight and Magus of the Future at the same cost. More Instant-oriented builds will want Azami, while I would probably feel more comfortable with Future Sight going into a public game because it's easier to kill. Both is an option too though, and there is obvious combo potential with Azami.
Hopefully I can test this deck some more before release, but 'Trice players have been uncooperative. Until I can get more time behind the deck I won't be too confident in making any changes.
Never was able to get very good use out of Equilibrium when I tried it in my Bant blink deck. It seems awesome but in practice I didn't like it very much and eventually cut it.
Rofl. Nice deck. Do you think it's possible/good to play this deck with a more pronounced Stax strategy? You could play GAAIV, Loxodon Gatekeeper, both tutorable with Birthing Pod and Derevi, Gaddock Teeg and such cards to oppress the board. Maybe a bit too slow?
BRGWTana and TymnaBRGW
RTeneb, the EternalR
UBRNekusar, Mind RazerUBR
Rakdos, Lord of Riots
BGWGhave, Guru of SporesBGW
Aurelia, the Warleader
BDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefB
WBROros, the AvengerWBR
Aura Shards: with Birdman, you pay 4 to nuke an artifact or enchantment repeatedly
Voidmage Prodigy: for 1GWUUU you have access to a recurrable counterspell.
Food Chain: by eating your bird, you can drop a lot bigger creatures, and you could use your general as a recurrable Black Lotus I've always wanted to play this just as a permenant removal to creatures I steal, and this gives me a huge reason to.
This card breaks a lot of set rules and opens up a whole slew of deck construction space not previously seen before. I'm gonna enjoy building this general to take tables apart.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
I am probably going to cut Thalia for Loxodon Gatekeeper, and GAAIV is certainly a good option for tax in these colors. I think tax is generally quite hit and miss in this format though. If it comes out of the Command Zone like GAAIV in his own deck, that is one thing, but tax effects usually need to accumulate or hook up with sacrifice or discard effects to be good. And it is just very hard to string together a consistent draw.
But here, essentially the role that all these fill is to protect yourself against the Naturalize'es and Nature's Claim effects while you have a Winter Orb out. Orb down, an opponent can untap a land, play a land, then stick a 2cc removal spell on your lock pieces. With a tax effect out, the idea is that they still have to build up to 3 mana to pay the tax, and when you get the turn back you can just tap down any lands that got played with your attack triggers.
The importance of being able to do this though is lower because the preferred routes of response to removal in my mind are to bounce your stuff to save it, or to set up a counterspell engine. Still, tax is probably an important niche effect for the deck to be able to hit somewhere in the 99, but not the most important effect to have in an opener. Consequently, there are a lot of different things to use here, but I wouldn't overload on it. My opinion is that the Kismet effects are probably the best for this. GAAIV though is always worth running for his mana, and Kaalia is good too. I just wouldn't cut bounce or counterspells for any of it, and it's also important for the deck to have enough mana, draw and deck access to set up. So, I'm fairly sure they'd work out decent, but are not necessary.
On Gaddock Teeg, he is a card that I'm always on the fence about running. On the one hand, he is very good against most control decks, and a lot of ramp decks. On the other hand, he is not exceptionally good against anything else. It's just that you see so much of that kind of deck in EDH. All in all, most of the things the deck hates that he shuts down is stuff like Austere Command. You can stand to lose your creatures, but you don't want to lose your non-creatures. So there's other stuff in here to respond to pinpoint removal like Beast Within, but he is worth considering, as are cards like Privileged Position. Some of the draw density could probably be cut for some of this, if necessary.
BRGWTana and TymnaBRGW
RTeneb, the EternalR
UBRNekusar, Mind RazerUBR
Rakdos, Lord of Riots
BGWGhave, Guru of SporesBGW
Aurelia, the Warleader
BDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefB
WBROros, the AvengerWBR
DUDE!!! You are a genius, I never thought of using Food Chain for exiling stolen creatures. THANKS!!! Its definitely going in mine.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I don't know for sure, and probably won't for sure until I can get more testing in after the MODO release. There are a few things on my mind though.
One, I would like the counter density to be around 12 in order to really keep those "combo decks" in check. Particularly without B for tutors, if you sit down against some Doomsday or Hermit Druid deck it is hard to guarantee a usable counterspell by turn 5. It depends on how strong you want to be against that though, since a lot of people consider any game-breaker before Turn 6 to be anti-social play. Even after as well, Storm combo can be impossible to counter and doesn't need a lot of mana to set up. The usual combos like Tooth and Nail or Palinchron though should give you more than enough time to deal with them, if you stick some mana denial through their counters.
Also, the deck doesn't have any graveyard hate right now, since my experience is that mana denial is enough to shut down most forms of recursion. A lot of those things that mana denial doesn't get as well are Reanimate's onto power creatures in the bin, and you should be pulling enough mana on the board to be able to cast a Capsize against a lot of resolved threats. There just might be graveyard-based combos here and there like Worldgorger Dragon that need more direct answers.
Otherwise, just any strong deck targeting you from the outset who is on a better draw. Mind Twist for 5 on Turn 3 is pretty hard to recover from, particularly when backed up by aggro. Some setup like Grand Abolisher and Lightning Greaves out of a Rafiq of the Many deck is difficult to prevent attacking you, though you can usually stop just Greaves by tapping down the attacker with Derevi. Artifact removal stops Voltron aggro though, and Aura Shards is in the deck.
Jhoira of the Ghitu, Thada Adel, Adel Acquisitor, and some Zur, the Enchanter decks usually give prison decks a lot of trouble as well. Small removal for early utility creatures is something that it's hard to free up slots for, given that you're running so much internal utility. It relies on the other players to step up, and they might not do that when they know that you're playing a prison deck.
How does that work? I only see it getting two tokens. Is there a way to gain more than one extra token during a combat phase?
Don't be shy, post your list!
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Lux Cannon - This one is going to depend on how many token producers your build has, the other ways you have of dealing with permanents, and the other uses for your untap effects. In the abstract, the twiddle triggers used on the Cannon are roughly equal to 4 a pop. If you've got the typical board of 3'ish creatures around Turn 4, then the Cannon is eating all of your twiddle effects. Of course if you've got a board of 7'ish tokens, then you've got the budget for the Cannon. Otherwise if you're sticking a lock piece with only a couple creatures out, then a lot of your untaps are going into tapping down opposing lands, and then untapping your mana so that you can start to tutor up and pay for your engine pieces like Birthing Pod and your big answer cards like Cyclonic Rift. When you do reach your setup, your problems in dealing with permanents are basically over besides. Basically the principle is that this deck is more afraid of having its lock pieces killed than having scary permanents show up on the board, since resolving and protecting the lock pieces allows the deck to deal with everything else.