"Tokens? I make that. Fire? I spit that. But I'm not a rapper."
"Guys...I think the M14 rules might have screwed Karrthus players."
"Can't they just swap him with Darigaaz? Same colors, still a dragon, blah blah blah...?"
"You're joking, right? Darigaaz is so bad, Karrthus doesn't even use him as a lackey."
"So what do we do?"
"We create a new heir to the throne."
The problem is, they created one that was too good.
Why play Prossh? "Subtle? I don't do subtle."
1. You know that look you get from your opponents when you slam an Avenger of Zendikar? Imagine getting that every game, because you have Avenger on a stick. Six mana, seven dudes, and a warning that someone’s getting blown out next turn. Raw power, at any time. You love that power.
2. Prossh is the essence of Jund. He does everything that those colors want to do. Pumpable power, huge token generator, and sac outlet all in one card that you have access to at any time. How can he not be great? And because he’s so open-ended, you can build decks based around any facet you like: green-based generating a ton of fat tokens, black-based sac outlet abuse, or good ol’ red-based Dragons (it’s much safer to play Prossh instead of Karrthus so you don’t get your field hijacked by Clones). You can even just go Jund Goodstuff. The possibilities are almost endless, and they’re all GREAT.
3. You like being the one asking the questions, not waiting for answers (or begging for mercy!). By nature of having the three most dangerous colors for creatures and the means to do aggressive, highly dangerous stuff immediately to anybody and everybody, you’re likely going to be in a position of power as soon as you hit 6 mana, even with an empty board.
4. I dare say that Prossh is actually a better Kresh, the Bloodbraided, at least for our purposes here. They have a similar goal of having a ridiculous Commander swinging at people, except 1) Prossh brings his own army with him, 2) he’s got evasion, and 3) he’s his own sac outlet. I think that Kresh ultimately is better for a more focused stax/attrition Jund build, or a pure Voltron build, as he is a little cheaper and promotes “interaction” (read: “I do stuff and you interact by picking up your cards and putting them in the graveyard”).
Why not play Prossh?
1. Well, remember how I said you can go from zero to threat in just six mana? This means that you’re going to have a target on your head pretty much 100% of the time, because even if you aren’t doing anything, you can be dominating the board in the blink of an eye. If you’re not comfortable going 3v1 every game, this is not for you.
2. Once you play it a couple of times and the table sees the kind of sickening power level this deck can generate even without casting Prossh, you will DEFINITELY be going 3v1 every game. Once you see the decklist, it’ll become clear. This deck does not make friends.
3. Outside of Purphoros going nuts, you need the combat step to win. Even our “combo” (Kiki-Conscripts) requires a swing. Cyclonic Rift, Fog effects, or various kill/tuck spells on Prossh means we’re diversely one dimensional--Many threats, one way to win. And that’s turning dudes sideways.
4. You enjoy being reactive. Or weak. We prey on the weak. Such is the law of Jund.
Deck History
[SPOILER]
Version 2.0, 1/2/2014 - A tweak here, a tweak there, and suddenly it's transformed from an explosive-but-fragile Voltron build to token blowout madness. It's evil.
Version 1.0, 11/11/2013 - A build I feel comfortable as a starting point for tweaking after developing through two weeks of brainstorming and testing. The goal: Crushing the table through Commander damage, possibly in the same turn.[/SPOILER]
The List, aka Tokens On Tokens:
By Function:
[SPOILER]
I hesitate to put a competitive tag on it, because the deck obviously isn't a 100% highly tuned machine. But there's a ton of raw power in the deck, so much so that I can't call it a casual build even if I wanted to.
The Method Behind The Madness
[SPOILER]
Ramp:
[SPOILER]Originally, I had signets and Burnished Hart here. Upon testing, just ramping for lands was a lot better as I don't get set back by Vandalblast and Bane of Progress.
Darksteel Ingot: 3 mana, all your colors. Ingot survives the inevitable wipe.
Tempt With Discovery: Real talk for one moment: If anybody ever tempts you with this cycle, you say NO. No matter what advantage you think you can get off of it, it will never, EVER trump what the original caster wants to do with it. That being said, when you cast it and someone says yes, you owe them a tasty beverage. After you destroy them, of course.[/SPOILER]
Token enablers: Chancellor of the Forge. Honestly, this is my new favorite Pod target. You can get him off of Prossh and pick up at least 14 hasted tokens. With the bonus pump this deck provides, that's a death sentence for the table.
Avenger of Zendikar: Green. Probably the poster child of EDH staples. Zero reason not to. 100% more reason to do it considering what we can do with the tokens.
Broodmate Dragon. “6 land Broodmate? I keep.” But seriously, 8 power (or 12!) on an evasive beater? I’m all in.
Dragon Broodmother. Add a doubler, and you just kinda take over the game. Two dragons per upkeep? Okay!
Of course, Prossh himself. 6, 8, 10 tokens at a time? Sure, why not?[/SPOILER]
Fecundity: Can other people draw cards? Sure. Will they draw enough cards to stop you? Nope. Considering you can draw as few or as many cards as you like, it’s like the great George Orwell once stated: “All draws are equal, but some draws are more equal than others.”
Skullclamp: If, for some reason, you’ve never gotten the chance to play with a Skullclamp, DO IT. Granted, it’s probably Public Enemy #1 for Krosan Grip, but it’s well worth the price of admission (which is dirt cheap in every sense of the word: one mana to play, one to equip, and it’s only worth a couple bucks).[/SPOILER]
Doubling enchants:
[SPOILER]Doubling Season, Primal Vigor, Parallel Lives: The deck is strong without them. With them, it feels like you should have your own over-the-top guitar solo theme song playing behind you as you proceed to do things that give other people nightmares and you the spirit of Scrooge McDuck as you dive into your pile of tokens and swim around in them greedily.[/SPOILER]
Cards not mentioned that just turn the game in your favor, if not outright win:
[SPOILER]Purphoros, God of the Forge (Casting Prossh nets you 12-14 damage on first cast [you get the Kobolds even if Prossh gets countered], Avenger nets you 16+, and if you have Krenko online or Chancellor prepped and ready to go…)
Kiki-Jiki copying pretty much anything (just tap it, copy something, and yell “THE JUICE IS LOOSE!”)
Zealous Conscripts (the versatility of stealing ANY permanent is not to be underestimated)
Deathbringer Thoctar...just try him. Everybody likes machine guns, especically machine guns that get 2-for-1 bullets with the doubling enchants.
Warp World. Most people think of it as a chaos card. I think of it as chaos control. Cast this before turn 8 and you've created an insurmountable lead as the rest of the table gets set back and you land a TON of permanents on permanents on permanents.
[/SPOILER]
Great. Now how do I win with this pile?
The deck has a ton of redundancy, be it ramp, search engines, token doublers/generators, or game-warping fatties. The most important thing to look for in the opening hand is at least one piece of ramp. Speed in mana development is key.
Meanwhile, your mindset is to think of this as a combo deck and develop your hand as such. Birthing Pod, Purphoros, or something to double and/or boost your tokens is a key element.
The deck is designed to basically be faster than everyone else and pick people off while they're still developing their boards with them mostly tapping out for engines or creatures or whatever. For the most part, we don't care what they do as long as they're either tapped out or unable to deal with GIANT DARGON or anywhere between 10 and 60 tokens.
The Kobold Plan: Land Prossh. Threatening 11 Commander damage off the bat is okay. Double strike or a second combat deletes someone, and is always a threat if you get to untap with Prossh T5 or T6. Kher Keep feeds you 1 (or 2!) Kobolds per turn to eat.
The Pod plan: Our creatures double as a great toolbox kit. And by toolbox, I mean accidental oops-I-win moments where you pod a 6-drop or 7-drop into the end of the game.
The Plant Plan: Play Avenger of Zendikar. This is EDH and we're in green. C'mon now.
The Dragon Plan: Dragon Broodmother + doubling enchant = easy game, easy life. And of course, Broodmate Dragon is a classic.
A special note about Kiki-Jiki: Yes, we have Conscripts. Yes, we have Tooth and Nail. But we don’t have to wait for the combo to do fun and busted stuff. Considering pretty much every fatty we have can take over the game by itself, making a copy of it just makes things a million times worse for our opponents. Primordials? Obvious. Broodmate? I’ve got two more dragons. Avenger/Chancellor just get silly. And you know what’s the best part about making token copies? Getting two at once. Like I keep saying, the deck is synergistic and EXPLOSIVE. Explosive vegetation, explosive impact, explosive…death.
Now, the deck is not without its problems. Public Enemy #1 is the fact that you’re running a green-based ramp deck, which sometimes means you die to drawing all of the ramp and none of the juice. It’s the price we pay for turboing out devastation for the majority of our games. As far as cards that hurt us, Vandalblast or artifact destruction in general tends to put a huge cramp in our ramp plans. Counterspells at critical moments are another (I mean, we are technically a combo deck, and we do have a few measures in place to fight them, but we can’t always live in Magical Christmasland even though we have red and green colors). Again, Fogging our big combat steps or Prossh blowouts are bad. Without haste, boardwipes hit us pretty hard as well.
[SPOILER]Goblin Sharpshooter: Looks great on paper. In practice, not so much. It NEEDS haste to be able to do its job properly. Furthermore, why would I nickel and dime someone with Sharpshooter triggers when I can just blow people out of the water?
Blood Artist: In the same vein as Sharpshooter, honestly.
I like your write-up Saxman, very entertaining. I played my newly-built Prossh deck in 2 matches last night at my FLGS and I was lucky enough to win both. It's running more combo than your current list, with things like Food Chain and Vicious Shadows, but maybe I can recommend a few cards that would fit your style.
Champion of Lambholt: This card pretty much served up my 2nd win. I played Mana Vault turn 1, Anger turn 2, Champ turn 3, then a couple turns after played Prossh (who snacked on Anger). Boom, Champ is an 8/8 and my army was nearly unblockable from then on. A few more creatures, including a 2nd casting of Prossh made her a 20/20 and the game was over.
Hornet Queen: 5 bodies for 7 mana is good, and they pull lots of extra weight with the deathtouch. I feel she's too efficient not to include in a deck that craves MOAR TOKENS.
Disciple of Bolas: Great card for any Prossh deck. Sacrifice him, gain a bunch of life, draw a new hand, and send Prossh back to the zone for another casting. Top-notch effect for only 4 mana.
Jarad's Orders: I agree with J.Doe, this tutor is quite good. I enjoy putting Anger or Genesis in the yard and a valuable creature in my hand. I lucked into Orders in my 1st game along with Phyrexian Altar and Food Chain. Went infinite and didn't even need to put Anger in my yard as I just tutored & played Ogre Wardriver for the token swarm win. Of course any tutor would've sufficed at that point but when you run creatures that "live" in your yard the double duty it pulls is sweet.
Food Chain enables infi castings of Prossh as well as having mana left over to cast other dudes.
Phyrexian Altar is almost as good as chain. Sac all the kobolds then Prossh and you only need one more mana after each sac to cast him again. This can do a lot of work if you have die triggers. Throw in Pawn of Ulamog and you have infi castings.
Fresh Meat is something I've really enjoyed having in the list, especially if I have the altar out.
Chord of Calling should be in every Prossh list hands down. At the least its an early game low mana dude. On average I cast it as soon as I land to go grab a 4 mana target. At best, well, its a 'free' tutor for anything in the deck. Very, VERY good in Prossh.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
It didn't read everything but it looks like you're using tokens as more than just sac fodder. Have you considered Beastmaster Ascension? Yesterday someone dropped that after playing Prossh and oneshot someone out the blue. It's not as situational as it seems once you realize Prossh can turn it on by himself.
@J.Doe--great points. I could add a few more disruptive lands (which would also give me reason to add Life from the Loam). I ultimately cut Tempt With Vengeance because nobody would take the offer and it was just mana for little guys, not that I blame them. Artifact Mutation would be huge for me, as there are two Sharuum decks running rampant in my meta. If you're going for a stax build, Bloodghast/Reassembling Skeleton/Nether Traitor are all sickeningly effective. There's a guy developing Shattergang Brothers that put the hurt on us pretty well last week with them. Actually, I'll probably take today and create an early Stax draft for Prossh (since he's his own sac outlet and such) and add it to the main post.
@falchionsensei--Champion of Lambholt...you're a genius. I've got to find room for this. I'll end up testing Disciple of Bolas tomorrow night. I was hesitant because I'm bad at evaluating card situations and don't like to play good Magic, lol. Same with Hornet Queen.
@blackkithkin20--I should also develop an inf-mana list since you're the second person to mention running the Food Chain build (I knew it existed, but decided to go in a different direction, at least for now). Fresh Meat looks hysterical. Chord of Calling isn't in this list simply because I don't own one. Same with Demonic Tutor. That'll probably change within the next week.
@bthepanda--I'm ordering one quite literally as we speak. Expect hilarity soon.
A note about Jarad's Orders: apparently I'm good at reading. It says "Up to two creatures". Holy crap.
So now we've got a good direction for tweaks. On the lines of adding in more disruption: I'm looking to add a Red Elemental Blast in here somehow, in addition to working in any combination of the land destruction lands, probably starting with Strip Mine. I'm thinking that scaling back on some of the extra combat phase cards is probably the best ways to start. Double strike feels fine for now.
Are there any cards in the original list that nobody is exactly excited to see?
Phyrexian Tower is a must in this deck. Being able to sacrifice Prossh is key to preventing things like tucking and the mana fixing this card provides is top-notch.
I couldn't help but notice that you're missing what is probably the single most powerful token generator you could hope for while playing with Prossh: Mycoloth! Also, Beastmaster Ascension is pretty legit in this deck. One cast of Prossh along with one swing with him and all the tokens he makes is enough to hit for 40.
Alright. I have a Prosh here, and I must modify it for my friend. I have a long history of playing Commander, but only Black and Black/White decks. What should I take out for Prossh? I have zero experience with green and red, but my card pool is very large and I've got a ton of staples. I just don't know which to put in.
Alright. I have a Prosh here, and I must modify it for my friend. I have a long history of playing Commander, but only Black and Black/White decks. What should I take out for Prossh? I have zero experience with green and red, but my card pool is very large and I've got a ton of staples. I just don't know which to put in.
This depends solely on how you want to play the deck out. More on that in a moment.
I personally can't play Insurrection in my deck because my meta is extremely creature-light, but it's an easy include for more beatdown-inclined metas.
I will put Vicious Shadows on my list of cards to test as well.
I'd cut the following: Fervor - just granting haste is not enough. Primal Vigor - also works for your opponents. Sepulchral Primordial - the card is bonkers with clones in opponents yard. But I'd say you have enough win conditions as is.
Also I would probably cut one or more of the double attack step. But that could just be me not liking to win on the attack step.
Second game involved Olivia saving us both from a Serra Avatar with a Sword of War and Peace via Sever the Bloodline. Problem is, Olivia also casted Painful Quandary, followed immediately by Sharuum Mindslavering me. He hardcast my Wrecking Ogre and Farhaven Elf (failed the search), making me discard my Fires of Yavimaya and Primal Vigor. The next turn, I cast Prossh to relieve some of the pressure Olivia was putting out (thankfully getting everyone else around ~25 life since I spent so much time shooting myself with Boseiju and shocklands). I topdecked Tooth and Nail with 10 lands and grabbed Avenger of Zendikar and Purphoros, God of the Forge and AoE'd the table.
I say all that to lead back to my original point to Cornebus' question: You can make the deck do whatever you want. Literally whatever you want. But 1) Make sure you make it do whatever you want it to do well, and 2) don't be afraid to cut strategies that don't work out as well as you thought they would. I'd be more than happy to bounce ideas back and forth with you. That being said, I have more changes to document:
Got in a lot of good testing today. The good news--there are a few cards in here that pretty much proven to be MVPs of the day. The bad news is that there are quite a few post-tuning WTFs, and I'd like to talk through them before I make some serious (yet sorely needed) changes.
1) First and foremost, my current build has pretty much no interaction with the table. That's probably because when I actually physically look at the deck, I can count the number of black cards on one hand. I'm leaning towards cutting the Goblin package (outside of Kiki-Jiki, of course) to add in 3 more interaction and possibly card draw slots. Decree of Pain is 100% coming in, as is Nature's Claim. Seize the Day and Fury of the Horde are coming out as well.
2) I might have tweaked my ramp package a bit too much on the fly today. I want to do a 1 for 1 trade with Deathrite Shaman (ended up being pretty not-good) and Viridian Emissary. Also, Rampant Growth (how'd I miss that?!) and Chromatic Lantern are coming in, as is Explosive Vegetation and Nature's Lore. I'm trying to stay away from rocks as ramp because I'll end up getting caught as an innocent bystander versus keeping Sharuum in check. Surprisingly, I've found Sylvan Scrying to be more annoying than helpful since any single land in my deck isn't all THAT important, and it doesn't actually put lands into play. Hence, cut.
3) Outside of Demonic Tutor being an auto-include once I get my hands on one, the tutor package is pretty alright. I'm still open to changes here.
4) It's remarkably hard to keep four mana up for Fresh Meat, but the blowout effect is way too great to cut.
5) I didn't get a chance to play Beastmaster Ascension, but Champion of Lambholt is once again insane.
6) I'm getting less and less enamored with Swifthoof Boots/Lightning Greaves.
General ideas for change:
-DRS
-Sylvan Scrying
-Seize the Day
-Fury of the Horde
-Siege-Gang Commander
-Goblin Matron
-Krenko, Mob Boss
+Nature's Lore
+Explosive Vegetation
+Putrefy
+Reaper of the Wild
+Sepulchral Primordial
+Insurrection (new decks showed up to my meta today. This = the nuts)
+Red Elemental Blast
Cards to test: Abrupt Decay, Golgari Charm, Underworld Connections, Staff of Nin in addition to cards mentioned earlier in the thread.
Big update to the deck. It's turned into some sort of synergistic combo token beatdown blow up the world I don't know how to describe it other than it vomits things onto the field and wins deck.
Quick notes:
Birthing Pod is the MVP and like Tooth and Nail #2.
There's a ton more removal than previous iterations. I now ask all the questions AND have all the answers.
My landbase is still pretty abysmal. I need ideas on good utility lands especially.
I'm tempted to go full suicidal and add Final Fortune. The one thing better than creating an overpowering board state is using it twice before your opponent can deploy a suitable response.
You don't need 16 ramp/rock spells so I would cut some for a land or two. Good utility lands are Phyrexian Tower and Rouge's Passage. One is a great sac engine and I love having it to do some crazy things. Rouge's Passage just let's a fat Prossh hit unabated, especially good since his pump ability requires no mana investment. Filter Lands, like Twilight Mire are good in three color decks with big mana requirements, so I like them in my list.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
"Guys...I think the M14 rules might have screwed Karrthus players."
"Can't they just swap him with Darigaaz? Same colors, still a dragon, blah blah blah...?"
"You're joking, right? Darigaaz is so bad, Karrthus doesn't even use him as a lackey."
"So what do we do?"
"We create a new heir to the throne."
The problem is, they created one that was too good.
Why play Prossh? "Subtle? I don't do subtle."
1. You know that look you get from your opponents when you slam an Avenger of Zendikar? Imagine getting that every game, because you have Avenger on a stick. Six mana, seven dudes, and a warning that someone’s getting blown out next turn. Raw power, at any time. You love that power.
2. Prossh is the essence of Jund. He does everything that those colors want to do. Pumpable power, huge token generator, and sac outlet all in one card that you have access to at any time. How can he not be great? And because he’s so open-ended, you can build decks based around any facet you like: green-based generating a ton of fat tokens, black-based sac outlet abuse, or good ol’ red-based Dragons (it’s much safer to play Prossh instead of Karrthus so you don’t get your field hijacked by Clones). You can even just go Jund Goodstuff. The possibilities are almost endless, and they’re all GREAT.
3. You like being the one asking the questions, not waiting for answers (or begging for mercy!). By nature of having the three most dangerous colors for creatures and the means to do aggressive, highly dangerous stuff immediately to anybody and everybody, you’re likely going to be in a position of power as soon as you hit 6 mana, even with an empty board.
4. I dare say that Prossh is actually a better Kresh, the Bloodbraided, at least for our purposes here. They have a similar goal of having a ridiculous Commander swinging at people, except 1) Prossh brings his own army with him, 2) he’s got evasion, and 3) he’s his own sac outlet. I think that Kresh ultimately is better for a more focused stax/attrition Jund build, or a pure Voltron build, as he is a little cheaper and promotes “interaction” (read: “I do stuff and you interact by picking up your cards and putting them in the graveyard”).
Why not play Prossh?
1. Well, remember how I said you can go from zero to threat in just six mana? This means that you’re going to have a target on your head pretty much 100% of the time, because even if you aren’t doing anything, you can be dominating the board in the blink of an eye. If you’re not comfortable going 3v1 every game, this is not for you.
2. Once you play it a couple of times and the table sees the kind of sickening power level this deck can generate even without casting Prossh, you will DEFINITELY be going 3v1 every game. Once you see the decklist, it’ll become clear. This deck does not make friends.
3. Outside of Purphoros going nuts, you need the combat step to win. Even our “combo” (Kiki-Conscripts) requires a swing. Cyclonic Rift, Fog effects, or various kill/tuck spells on Prossh means we’re diversely one dimensional--Many threats, one way to win. And that’s turning dudes sideways.
4. You enjoy being reactive. Or weak. We prey on the weak. Such is the law of Jund.
Deck History
[SPOILER]
Version 2.0, 1/2/2014 - A tweak here, a tweak there, and suddenly it's transformed from an explosive-but-fragile Voltron build to token blowout madness. It's evil.
Version 1.0, 11/11/2013 - A build I feel comfortable as a starting point for tweaking after developing through two weeks of brainstorming and testing. The goal: Crushing the table through Commander damage, possibly in the same turn.[/SPOILER]
The List, aka Tokens On Tokens:
By Function:
[SPOILER]
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
1 Armed/Dangerous
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Swifthoof Boots
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Parallel Lives
1 Primal Vigor
1 Doubling Season
1 Birthing Pod
1 Sol Ring
1 Farseek
1 Nature's Lore
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Wood Elves
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Ranger's Path
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Tempt With Discovery
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Jarad's Orders
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fecundity
1 Harmonize
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Bitterblossom
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Dragon Broodmother
1 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Sepulchral Primordial
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Vicious Shadows
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Coat of Arms
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Reaper of the Wild
1 Warp World
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Acidic Slime
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Vandalblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Terminate
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Putrefy
1 Krosan Grip
7 Mountain
5 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Temple of the False God
1 Command Tower
1 Savage Lands
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Kher Keep
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Strip Mine
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Llanowar Wastes
I hesitate to put a competitive tag on it, because the deck obviously isn't a 100% highly tuned machine. But there's a ton of raw power in the deck, so much so that I can't call it a casual build even if I wanted to.
The Method Behind The Madness
[SPOILER]
Ramp:
[SPOILER]Originally, I had signets and Burnished Hart here. Upon testing, just ramping for lands was a lot better as I don't get set back by Vandalblast and Bane of Progress.
Darksteel Ingot: 3 mana, all your colors. Ingot survives the inevitable wipe.
Rampant Growth, Farseek, Kodama’s Reach, Cultivate, Skyshroud Claim,Nature's Lore: Pretty standard ramp suite. The important thing to note for half of these is being able to dig for Stomping Ground and Overgrown Tomb.
Farhaven Elf, Wood Elves: Creature versions of the same deal (and Green Sun’s Zenith/Birthing Pod targets).
Tempt With Discovery: Real talk for one moment: If anybody ever tempts you with this cycle, you say NO. No matter what advantage you think you can get off of it, it will never, EVER trump what the original caster wants to do with it. That being said, when you cast it and someone says yes, you owe them a tasty beverage. After you destroy them, of course.[/SPOILER]
Haste enablers: I originally had a ton, but I've cut down to just Hammer of Purphoros. I found that when I went for wins, either I didn't need to swing (Purphoros, God of the Forge), my tokens already had haste (Chancellor of the Forge), or they've already been out awhile.
Swifthoof Boots, Lightning Greaves: The untargetability from your opponents is the big draw for these.
[/SPOILER]
Token enablers: Chancellor of the Forge. Honestly, this is my new favorite Pod target. You can get him off of Prossh and pick up at least 14 hasted tokens. With the bonus pump this deck provides, that's a death sentence for the table.
Avenger of Zendikar: Green. Probably the poster child of EDH staples. Zero reason not to. 100% more reason to do it considering what we can do with the tokens.
Broodmate Dragon. “6 land Broodmate? I keep.” But seriously, 8 power (or 12!) on an evasive beater? I’m all in.
Dragon Broodmother. Add a doubler, and you just kinda take over the game. Two dragons per upkeep? Okay!
Of course, Prossh himself. 6, 8, 10 tokens at a time? Sure, why not?[/SPOILER]
Card Draw: [SPOILER]Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, Harmonize. Pretty standard stuff between getting nice filters and just raw draw power.
Fecundity: Can other people draw cards? Sure. Will they draw enough cards to stop you? Nope. Considering you can draw as few or as many cards as you like, it’s like the great George Orwell once stated: “All draws are equal, but some draws are more equal than others.”
Skullclamp: If, for some reason, you’ve never gotten the chance to play with a Skullclamp, DO IT. Granted, it’s probably Public Enemy #1 for Krosan Grip, but it’s well worth the price of admission (which is dirt cheap in every sense of the word: one mana to play, one to equip, and it’s only worth a couple bucks).[/SPOILER]
Doubling enchants:
[SPOILER]Doubling Season, Primal Vigor, Parallel Lives: The deck is strong without them. With them, it feels like you should have your own over-the-top guitar solo theme song playing behind you as you proceed to do things that give other people nightmares and you the spirit of Scrooge McDuck as you dive into your pile of tokens and swim around in them greedily.[/SPOILER]
Cards not mentioned that just turn the game in your favor, if not outright win:
[SPOILER]Purphoros, God of the Forge (Casting Prossh nets you 12-14 damage on first cast [you get the Kobolds even if Prossh gets countered], Avenger nets you 16+, and if you have Krenko online or Chancellor prepped and ready to go…)
Kiki-Jiki copying pretty much anything (just tap it, copy something, and yell “THE JUICE IS LOOSE!”)
Sepulchral Primordial (everybody played big fatties, and now they’re all mine), Sylvan Primordial (it’s silly not to play him, let’s be honest)
Craterhoof Behemoth (another way to one-shot the table),
Zealous Conscripts (the versatility of stealing ANY permanent is not to be underestimated)
Deathbringer Thoctar...just try him. Everybody likes machine guns, especically machine guns that get 2-for-1 bullets with the doubling enchants.
Warp World. Most people think of it as a chaos card. I think of it as chaos control. Cast this before turn 8 and you've created an insurmountable lead as the rest of the table gets set back and you land a TON of permanents on permanents on permanents.
[/SPOILER]
Great. Now how do I win with this pile?
The deck has a ton of redundancy, be it ramp, search engines, token doublers/generators, or game-warping fatties. The most important thing to look for in the opening hand is at least one piece of ramp. Speed in mana development is key.
Meanwhile, your mindset is to think of this as a combo deck and develop your hand as such. Birthing Pod, Purphoros, or something to double and/or boost your tokens is a key element.
The deck is designed to basically be faster than everyone else and pick people off while they're still developing their boards with them mostly tapping out for engines or creatures or whatever. For the most part, we don't care what they do as long as they're either tapped out or unable to deal with GIANT DARGON or anywhere between 10 and 60 tokens.
The Kobold Plan: Land Prossh. Threatening 11 Commander damage off the bat is okay. Double strike or a second combat deletes someone, and is always a threat if you get to untap with Prossh T5 or T6. Kher Keep feeds you 1 (or 2!) Kobolds per turn to eat.
The Pod plan: Our creatures double as a great toolbox kit. And by toolbox, I mean accidental oops-I-win moments where you pod a 6-drop or 7-drop into the end of the game.
The Plant Plan: Play Avenger of Zendikar. This is EDH and we're in green. C'mon now.
The Dragon Plan: Dragon Broodmother + doubling enchant = easy game, easy life. And of course, Broodmate Dragon is a classic.
A special note about Kiki-Jiki: Yes, we have Conscripts. Yes, we have Tooth and Nail. But we don’t have to wait for the combo to do fun and busted stuff. Considering pretty much every fatty we have can take over the game by itself, making a copy of it just makes things a million times worse for our opponents. Primordials? Obvious. Broodmate? I’ve got two more dragons. Avenger/Chancellor just get silly. And you know what’s the best part about making token copies? Getting two at once. Like I keep saying, the deck is synergistic and EXPLOSIVE. Explosive vegetation, explosive impact, explosive…death.
Now, the deck is not without its problems. Public Enemy #1 is the fact that you’re running a green-based ramp deck, which sometimes means you die to drawing all of the ramp and none of the juice. It’s the price we pay for turboing out devastation for the majority of our games. As far as cards that hurt us, Vandalblast or artifact destruction in general tends to put a huge cramp in our ramp plans. Counterspells at critical moments are another (I mean, we are technically a combo deck, and we do have a few measures in place to fight them, but we can’t always live in Magical Christmasland even though we have red and green colors). Again, Fogging our big combat steps or Prossh blowouts are bad. Without haste, boardwipes hit us pretty hard as well.
Cards for Consideration:
[SPOILER]Urabask The Hidden
In The Web Of War
Various draw effects like Ambition's Cost
More tutors: Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Sylvan Tutor, Worldly Tutor
Insurrection
Vicious Shadows
Coat of Arms
[/SPOILER]
Why aren't you playing...?
[SPOILER]Goblin Sharpshooter: Looks great on paper. In practice, not so much. It NEEDS haste to be able to do its job properly. Furthermore, why would I nickel and dime someone with Sharpshooter triggers when I can just blow people out of the water?
Blood Artist: In the same vein as Sharpshooter, honestly.
Tempt With Vengeance: It's a trap. It doesn't have a large enough impact on its own to warrant a spot after testing.[/SPOILER]
Changelog: [SPOILER]
1/2/14:
+Vandalblast
+Ancient Grudge
+Chromatic Lantern (eh)
+Darksteel Ingot
+Demonic Tutor
+Bitterblossom
+Oracle of Mul Daya
+Red Elemental Blast
+Xenagos, the Reveler
+Eternal Witness
+Deathbringer Thoctar
+Putrefy
+Krosan Grip
+Warp World
+Whip of Erebos
-Siege-Gang Commander (still feel guilty about this one)
-Krenko
-Goblin Matron
-Gruul Signet
-Golgari Signet
-Read the Bones
-Disciple of Bolas
-Burnished Hart
-Viscera Seer
-Goblin Bombardment
- Seize the Day
- Wrecking Ogre
- Fury of the Horde
- Fires of Yavimaya
- Fervor
- Ogre Battledriver
11/12/13:
-World At War
-Aggravated Assault
+Disciple of Bolas
+Jarad's Orders
11/14/14:
-Mogg War Marshal
-Savage Beating
-Relentless Assault
-Deathbringer Thoctar
-Jund Panorama
+Champion of Lambholt
+Acidic Slime
+Artifact Mutation
+Beastmaster Ascension
+Strip Mine[/SPOILER]
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
Champion of Lambholt: This card pretty much served up my 2nd win. I played Mana Vault turn 1, Anger turn 2, Champ turn 3, then a couple turns after played Prossh (who snacked on Anger). Boom, Champ is an 8/8 and my army was nearly unblockable from then on. A few more creatures, including a 2nd casting of Prossh made her a 20/20 and the game was over.
Hornet Queen: 5 bodies for 7 mana is good, and they pull lots of extra weight with the deathtouch. I feel she's too efficient not to include in a deck that craves MOAR TOKENS.
Disciple of Bolas: Great card for any Prossh deck. Sacrifice him, gain a bunch of life, draw a new hand, and send Prossh back to the zone for another casting. Top-notch effect for only 4 mana.
Jarad's Orders: I agree with J.Doe, this tutor is quite good. I enjoy putting Anger or Genesis in the yard and a valuable creature in my hand. I lucked into Orders in my 1st game along with Phyrexian Altar and Food Chain. Went infinite and didn't even need to put Anger in my yard as I just tutored & played Ogre Wardriver for the token swarm win. Of course any tutor would've sufficed at that point but when you run creatures that "live" in your yard the double duty it pulls is sweet.
Phyrexian Altar is almost as good as chain. Sac all the kobolds then Prossh and you only need one more mana after each sac to cast him again. This can do a lot of work if you have die triggers. Throw in Pawn of Ulamog and you have infi castings.
Fresh Meat is something I've really enjoyed having in the list, especially if I have the altar out.
Chord of Calling should be in every Prossh list hands down. At the least its an early game low mana dude. On average I cast it as soon as I land to go grab a 4 mana target. At best, well, its a 'free' tutor for anything in the deck. Very, VERY good in Prossh.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
It didn't read everything but it looks like you're using tokens as more than just sac fodder. Have you considered Beastmaster Ascension? Yesterday someone dropped that after playing Prossh and oneshot someone out the blue. It's not as situational as it seems once you realize Prossh can turn it on by himself.
@falchionsensei--Champion of Lambholt...you're a genius. I've got to find room for this. I'll end up testing Disciple of Bolas tomorrow night. I was hesitant because I'm bad at evaluating card situations and don't like to play good Magic, lol. Same with Hornet Queen.
@blackkithkin20--I should also develop an inf-mana list since you're the second person to mention running the Food Chain build (I knew it existed, but decided to go in a different direction, at least for now). Fresh Meat looks hysterical. Chord of Calling isn't in this list simply because I don't own one. Same with Demonic Tutor. That'll probably change within the next week.
@bthepanda--I'm ordering one quite literally as we speak. Expect hilarity soon.
A note about Jarad's Orders: apparently I'm good at reading. It says "Up to two creatures". Holy crap.
So now we've got a good direction for tweaks. On the lines of adding in more disruption: I'm looking to add a Red Elemental Blast in here somehow, in addition to working in any combination of the land destruction lands, probably starting with Strip Mine. I'm thinking that scaling back on some of the extra combat phase cards is probably the best ways to start. Double strike feels fine for now.
Are there any cards in the original list that nobody is exactly excited to see?
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar are the best sac outlets you'll find. Also get a blood artist in there stat. With all these tokens around you minus well get some control elements by adding Grave Pact.
I second Champion of Lambholt, in fact, adding it to my own list after reading through this thread.
I won a game on Sunday with Skullmulcher card is AMAZING in this deck.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
Cards on the list to test include but are not limited to:
Fresh Meat, Artifact Mutation, Skullmuncher, Mycoloth, Beastmaster Ascension, Krosan Grip, Vandalblast, Terminate, Putrefy. I'll be looking hard for cards that underperform in the current list to open up spots.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
There are some cards that I'll be carrying over that could be good for you.
And yes, looks like you need more removal. Artifact Mutation?
This depends solely on how you want to play the deck out. More on that in a moment.
Tempt With Vengeance is ultimately a trap. On its own, the card just doesn't do enough. There's a slight difference between synergy and dependency. Synergistic cards, at least in my opinion, are strong on their own and bonkers when combined with others, such as Avenger of Zendikar, Krenko, Siege-Gang Commander, Broodmate Dragon. Dependent cards are strong IF their support cards are already on the field, such as Tempt With Vengeance and Mogg War Marshal (officially cut for Champion of Lambholt).
I personally can't play Insurrection in my deck because my meta is extremely creature-light, but it's an easy include for more beatdown-inclined metas.
I will put Vicious Shadows on my list of cards to test as well.
I've sort of reached your same conclusion about the extra combat step cards in general. I was able to get a couple pods in last night against Olivia Voldaren, Sharuum the Hegemon, and Progenitus. The first game involved me casting a hasted Prossh with 24 Kobolds thanks to Parallel Lives/Primal Vigor, one shotting Progenitus since he played Conflux tutoring for Mirari's Wake, Hammer of Purphoros, and Primal Surge, prepping to go off the next turn. I cast Siege-Gang/Craterhoof next turn to clean up the game.
Second game involved Olivia saving us both from a Serra Avatar with a Sword of War and Peace via Sever the Bloodline. Problem is, Olivia also casted Painful Quandary, followed immediately by Sharuum Mindslavering me. He hardcast my Wrecking Ogre and Farhaven Elf (failed the search), making me discard my Fires of Yavimaya and Primal Vigor. The next turn, I cast Prossh to relieve some of the pressure Olivia was putting out (thankfully getting everyone else around ~25 life since I spent so much time shooting myself with Boseiju and shocklands). I topdecked Tooth and Nail with 10 lands and grabbed Avenger of Zendikar and Purphoros, God of the Forge and AoE'd the table.
I say all that to lead back to my original point to Cornebus' question: You can make the deck do whatever you want. Literally whatever you want. But 1) Make sure you make it do whatever you want it to do well, and 2) don't be afraid to cut strategies that don't work out as well as you thought they would. I'd be more than happy to bounce ideas back and forth with you. That being said, I have more changes to document:
-Mogg War Marshal
-Savage Beating
-Relentless Assault
-Deathbringer Thoctar
-Jund Panorama
+Champion of Lambholt
+Acidic Slime (embarassing note: it was in my original live list, but I took it out to replace it with a FNM promo and completely forgot to do so, lol)
+Artifact Mutation
+Beastmaster Ascension
+Strip Mine
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
1) First and foremost, my current build has pretty much no interaction with the table. That's probably because when I actually physically look at the deck, I can count the number of black cards on one hand. I'm leaning towards cutting the Goblin package (outside of Kiki-Jiki, of course) to add in 3 more interaction and possibly card draw slots. Decree of Pain is 100% coming in, as is Nature's Claim. Seize the Day and Fury of the Horde are coming out as well.
2) I might have tweaked my ramp package a bit too much on the fly today. I want to do a 1 for 1 trade with Deathrite Shaman (ended up being pretty not-good) and Viridian Emissary. Also, Rampant Growth (how'd I miss that?!) and Chromatic Lantern are coming in, as is Explosive Vegetation and Nature's Lore. I'm trying to stay away from rocks as ramp because I'll end up getting caught as an innocent bystander versus keeping Sharuum in check. Surprisingly, I've found Sylvan Scrying to be more annoying than helpful since any single land in my deck isn't all THAT important, and it doesn't actually put lands into play. Hence, cut.
3) Outside of Demonic Tutor being an auto-include once I get my hands on one, the tutor package is pretty alright. I'm still open to changes here.
4) It's remarkably hard to keep four mana up for Fresh Meat, but the blowout effect is way too great to cut.
5) I didn't get a chance to play Beastmaster Ascension, but Champion of Lambholt is once again insane.
6) I'm getting less and less enamored with Swifthoof Boots/Lightning Greaves.
General ideas for change:
-DRS
-Sylvan Scrying
-Seize the Day
-Fury of the Horde
-Siege-Gang Commander
-Goblin Matron
-Krenko, Mob Boss
+Nature's Lore
+Explosive Vegetation
+Putrefy
+Reaper of the Wild
+Sepulchral Primordial
+Insurrection (new decks showed up to my meta today. This = the nuts)
+Red Elemental Blast
Cards to test: Abrupt Decay, Golgari Charm, Underworld Connections, Staff of Nin in addition to cards mentioned earlier in the thread.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
Quick notes:
Birthing Pod is the MVP and like Tooth and Nail #2.
There's a ton more removal than previous iterations. I now ask all the questions AND have all the answers.
My landbase is still pretty abysmal. I need ideas on good utility lands especially.
I'm tempted to go full suicidal and add Final Fortune. The one thing better than creating an overpowering board state is using it twice before your opponent can deploy a suitable response.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G