I've Edited my list to show tweaks and changes. My list is VERY different from what I initially put together. I am fairly certain about the cards that I am going to run at this point, and the only things that I'm looking at maybe running are cards I've listed in the sideboard. If there is something that you think I missed, feel free to let me know and please recommend what you would replace. If something comes in, what should come out?
Here are a couple of comments on my reasoning for some of the deck roles and the card choices within the roles.
Commander - Oloro imo is a perfect stalling Commander. The two life doesn't seem that big of a deal but with stuff like phyrexian arena or necro, that life gain can really be used as utility. I probably will never cast oloro, unless there is a truly locked down board state.
Lastly, I've always felt that Esper is probably the best combination of colors for control.
Card Draw - Instead of going for raw power through stuff like sphinx's revelations, I rather have that overwhelming incremental draw that just buries your opponent in card advantage. I'm hoping rhystic study, remora, and well of lost dreams are going to overperform, while phyrexian arena and necropotence will also pull in work when i need that serious dig.
Tutors - self explanatory. Mysticl for Armageddon/wraths/spot removal, demonic for whatever, rector for utility enchants. Tezz;s are there for more artifacts AND because they give me another avenue of attack as well as untapping tapped artifacts etc
Token Makers - I possibly have too many. I have a couple of sac effects and I have no equipment, so i'm thinking this is a place where I can make some cuts. ON the other hand, this will greatly improve the power of my smokestack and braids.
Mana Rocks - I can't afford Mana Crypt. On the advice of more experienced stax players i've removed gilded lotus. I don't think its that bad tbh, but I never do want to see it in my opening hand.
Prison Effects - pretty self explanatory
Graveyard Hate - just spellbomb and leyline. Leyline + helm to kill an opponent. nice little utility I guess. Rest in peace is an option, but I do want access to my graveyard more often than not
Recursion - Sun titan for cheap enchants and for mana rocks+lands after armageddon or smokestacks, or cataclysm etc. Crucible for lands etc
Sac - smokestack and braids are the ones that I want to stick around the most. Not sure what the best way is to accomplish this etc. I have no counterspells in my deck, and I'm adamant about going this route. Because i'im so artifact and enchantment heavy,I find cataclysm to be the most difficult card to use correctly.
Tap+mana disruption - I like this part of my list most. Tanglewire is great, static orb+winter orb is great etc. I like tezzeret here to help untap these permanents.
Board wipes - maybe too many wipes? I can see me cutting 1
Spot removal - terminus+ condemn and oblation as some tuck effects to hurt commanders that swing, and then a couple other choice removal spells like seal of cleansing and karmic justice -- both recurrable with replenish or sun titan
Win cons - exquisite blood + sanguine bond, helm of obedience + leyline, test of endurance+debt to deathless etc. win cons that can win games out of nowhere.
Utility - torpor orb to negate ETB effects, which are huge in the format apparently. Top for that card filter.
Man lands - I have 2 here, however I may cut them as I don't think they have synergy with my deck. I don't run equipment and I rarely need a chump blocker, NOR are either particularly easy to cast. I'd rather run inkmoth or mutavault, but even then, i'd rather have colored mana sources I think.
changed 3 drop rock to one that added color mana, changed 2 drop rock for a "better rock" and added aura of silence by cutting an albeit weak win condition.
CURRENT DEBATES Magosi, the Waterveil - I don't care about taking another turn, but using it to dodge the effects of smokestack or braids for 1 turn seems pretty good depending on board state. I have a lot of CITP lands anyway, not sure how this would REALLY hurt if i replaced one for this
Aether Barrier - Interesting option. don't know if I need it though.
Mana Vortex - just another source of land destruction. I don't know how playable it is for me considering the deck and the casting requirements. I have it though, so... its there
Supreme Verdict - is being uncounterable worth the slightly more difficult casting cost than day of judgement? Neither stops regeneration anyway.
Zur the Enchanter - considering getting my hands on this card. But is it worth it if it isn't my general? And what would I swap it with in my 99?
Yikes! Did not realize bargain was banned. I have mystic remora, and a bunch of draw cards already... U think I should replace that slot with one of your other suggestions instead of necropotence?
Thanks for the advice I'm going to make some of those changes
Can u explain why I should run some of those tuck spells ? Don't see what tunnel vision compliments with there?
Edit: I'm so boneheaded... U target them /facepalm
I definitely think that if you don't find the BBB to be too cumbersome, Necropotence is an auto-include. Your commander nicely offsets the life cost, and draw doesn't get any better than this.
Also, it might be that Propaganda is better for you than Crawlspace in this deck... especially since it doesn't help you at all against eldrazi/voltron/etc. Nice to slow down peoples turns if they choose to attack you, as this will make them think twice.
Another thing is that with the inclusion of some crucial instants/sorceries (you now have the tuck/tunnel combo), Mystical Tutor may warrant a slot.
Also, I just noticed that you run Helm of Obedience, I'd definitely run Rest in Peace alongside it. Together, activating the helm at 1 mana exiles an entire library (the cards never hit the grave so you just keep going). Also this stops grave based strategies and barely affects your game outside of when you have an active sun titan.
As I mentioned before, unless you are 1v1, I find vanilla beaters (even with hexproof evasion) to be very meh in decks like you're building. Geist of Saint Traft for instance seems out of place to me.
I'm working on my own GAAIV deck and a using the helm/RIP and tuck/tunnel vision combos as my primary win cons outside of titan beats... bolstered by a have a heavy stax/control theme. Seems we're building very overlapping decks!
Because Oloro can gain you a bunch of life, Righteous Aura seems like a great way to shut down opponents who are trying to win with Commander damage or infect. It compliments Sphere of Safety very well. The sphere keeps out the multitudes. The Aura keeps out that one, huge problem. And, it doesn't even target, so it beats Sigarda, Uril, Zur with shroud enchantments, etc.
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I'm always open to suggestions for my decks. Thanks in advance.
Because Oloro can gain you a bunch of life, Righteous Aura seems like a great way to shut down opponents who are trying to win with Commander damage or infect. It compliments Sphere of Safety very well. The sphere keeps out the multitudes. The Aura keeps out that one, huge problem. And, it doesn't even target, so it beats Sigarda, Uril, Zur with shroud enchantments, etc.
that seems like perfect tech for some things in my meta. I'm going to see if i can fit this in somewhere. I haven't bought all the cards I've listed anyway, so its possible i can make an obvious cut for this somewhere.
I definitely think that if you don't find the BBB to be too cumbersome, Necropotence is an auto-include. Your commander nicely offsets the life cost, and draw doesn't get any better than this.
Also, it might be that Propaganda is better for you than Crawlspace in this deck... especially since it doesn't help you at all against eldrazi/voltron/etc. Nice to slow down peoples turns if they choose to attack you, as this will make them think twice.
Another thing is that with the inclusion of some crucial instants/sorceries (you now have the tuck/tunnel combo), Mystical Tutor may warrant a slot.
Also, I just noticed that you run Helm of Obedience, I'd definitely run Rest in Peace alongside it. Together, activating the helm at 1 mana exiles an entire library (the cards never hit the grave so you just keep going). Also this stops grave based strategies and barely affects your game outside of when you have an active sun titan.
As I mentioned before, unless you are 1v1, I find vanilla beaters (even with hexproof evasion) to be very meh in decks like you're building. Geist of Saint Traft for instance seems out of place to me.
I'm working on my own GAAIV deck and a using the helm/RIP and tuck/tunnel vision combos as my primary win cons outside of titan beats... bolstered by a have a heavy stax/control theme. Seems we're building very overlapping decks!
Followed your advice but I still find the mana base very rough. Here's my update. Going with a more artifact and mana rock heavy build, but still. Can be rough.
I'm trying to squeeze the three cards in my sb somewhere into my 100. Not sure i even like the 100 that I have right now. Especially worried about the lands. I have 38 and I made three of them the artifact ones tutorable by my now available tezzerets.
In testing I've found condemn and oblation to be incredible.
Cryptic command on the other hand is cool, but I find it hard to cast.
I added scroll rack as a means to go deeper into my deck to find the effects I want. Access to tutors provide a way to reshuffle if I don't find what I want as well.
Not sure how important academy rector and omniscience is. Like rector helps find whatever I want pretty much and I'm assuming omniscience is probably the best I can find. However, seems so slow as I never want to see it in my first 40 cards and I want to keep low mana in the board mist of the time. Probably better as mana vortex or something.
Lastly, I have so many useful artifacts at 1 or less. I'm thinking of squeezing in meekstone and trinket Mage. What to cut tho?
Happy the deck is moving forward... and I do recognize the mana problems you're running into with stuff like Cryptic Command and Necropotence costing UUU/BBB etc. Necropotence is too good to be dropped, but Cryptic might be a worthy cut. I wonder if a lot of your mana problems are due to the amount of symmetrical stax effects you are running, without enough ways to unbalance them (grave titan/trading post/bitterblossom are a great start).
I wonder if the overall issue is really about taking the deck in a few different directions. I think if I were you I'd either go all out on the stax, removing some goodstuff in favor of adding more token producers/other things to make your stax 1-sided, and perhaps even find space for a few pox effects (you already run deathcloud). Alternatively, you could get rid of smokestack/necrogen mists/deathcloud/etc (keeping all of the best tax/naturally lopsided effects), and include more awesome draw/counter/removal spells... and put a little more juice into your lifegain/combo wincons (adding things like felidar sovereign, along with rest in peace if you're keeping helm of obedience in the deck).
Here are some more thoughts:
-If budget isn't an issue, the next step for you is to get all 9 of the onslaught and zendikar fetchlands, along with underground sea/tundra/scrubland (but I recognize this is extremely expensive). Also, getting Hallowed Fountain to complete that cycle of lands in your deck will help. Some cheaper options that can still prove a big improvement would be getting the 3 appropriate filter lands, like Mystic Gate, as they are really solid. Stuff like Adarkar Wastes in all of the appropriate colors will make a big difference too.
-Some cool rocks I'm not seeing: Mana Crypt[/CARD (if budget is not a thing), Coalition Relic (this one helps with hitting harder casting costs if you put a counter on it at your opponents EOT), Orzhov/Dimir Signets, and Talisman of Progress. Also, Darksteel Ingot is strictly better than Obelisk of Esper.
-I agree on tucks being really good in this format! If you are going to play a lot of them... Tunnel Vision will just take a player out very unexpectedly. I would consider Spell Crumple and Hinder (possibly to replace the difficult to cast Cryptic Command if you can't update landbase to include fetches/ABU duals). Spin Into Myth is also really awesome... it can just totally newter some decks by tucking their commander even if you aren't winning with the aforementioned combo (I'd only add this if you are getting rid of some stax)
-Omniscience is an awesome but situational card that I don't have much experience playing with yet (iffy inclusion in my GAAIV deck that I'm starting to test). It certainly is cumbersome in the early game, where you don't want to see it unless you are fetching with Rector. Speaking of which, you may need some more ways to kill your academy rector reliably to make this worthwhile. Let me know how it works you for you! Perhaps something to cut...
-I agree that Trinket Mage belongs in this deck... cut suggestions to follow
-How have your symmetrical stax effects been working for you? I'm thinking of Smokestack, Necrogen Mists, Winter Orb etc. I am wondering if you might need a few more token producers or things that spit permanents into play to make these effects as lopsided as possible. The one-sided tax effects are unquestionably awesome in here.
-How's Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas been for you? You do have a high artifact count, and it seems like it fits well if you hit the artifacts you need consistently!
-It may be that the best thing to do is to keep the best of the best stax cards, getting rid of subpar ones to increase overall card quality (perhaps adding more tutor/draw).
I wonder if the overall issue is really about taking the deck in a few different directions. I think if I were you I'd either go all out on the stax, removing some goodstuff in favor of adding more token producers/other things to make your stax 1-sided, and perhaps even find space for a few pox effects (you already run deathcloud). Alternatively, you could get rid of smokestack/necrogen mists/deathcloud/etc (keeping all of the best tax/naturally lopsided effects), and include more awesome draw/counter/removal spells... and put a little more juice into your lifegain/combo wincons (adding things like felidar sovereign, along with rest in peace if you're keeping helm of obedience in the deck).
I appreciate your feedback and while I didn't make all changes, it definitely does not fall on deaf ears. I do not like necrogen mists or similar discard effects. Maybe liliana of the veil, but not uncontrollable discard like bottomless pit. I've cut necrogen mists for another mana rock (darksteel ingot)
I am kind or under budget, which is why u don't see more fetches nor the filter lands and mana crypt. I only have verdant catacombs which is why I don't include hallowed fountain as I can't find it with my fetch.
-I like the tucks but I don't want to fit something situational like tunnel vision around it. I prefer to play the non threatening guy who is playing the game out and then win by killing all if my opponents at one time.
Regarding omniscience, I've never casted it once outside of using academy rector and the thing is, most of the time I want the rector to find me something else. I've cut omniscience and cryptic command and replaced them with trinket Mage and meekstone.
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How have your symmetrical stax effects been working for you? I'm thinking of Smokestack, Necrogen Mists, Winter Orb etc. I am wondering if you might need a few more token producers or things that spit permanents into play to make these effects as lopsided as possible. The one-sided tax effects are unquestionably awesome in here.
-How's Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas been for you? You do have a high artifact count, and it seems like it fits well if you hit the artifacts you need consistently!
I like copies of effects whether it is tangle wire or winter orb or rhystic study or mystic remora these things help generate consistency. I'm probably way too wrath heavy, but so far I don't mind. Also, I really like the inclusion of the tezzerets. It affects my curve, but I'm so artifact heavy that I'm really getting value out of +1 all the time. Whether it be as a tutor or just to untap 2 mana rocks which I tapped for tangle wire or static orb etc.
I'm trying to get used to not playing cards every turn. Like just being happy with one or 2 artifacts out there and purposely holding back land in my hand. It so far makes my opponents feel as if I'm not threatening and then I just blow em out with wipes and resource denial (tap effects or land destruction).
All this to just buy time when I drop some enchantment win con. Daxos and augury adept probably don't belong. Should probably be a talisman or signet as well as false prophet. But I like them as placeholders so far.
Artifacts:25
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Mana Vault
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Azorius Signet
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Scroll Rack
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Torpor Orb
1 Winter Orb
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Static Orb
1 Tangle Wire
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Smokestack
1 Trading Post
1 Well of Lost Dreams
Sorceries:9
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Death Cloud
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Damnation
1 Day of Judgment
1 Debt to the Deathless
1 Replenish
Thought about maze of ith? it's great with crawlspace and the taxing enchantments like sphere of safety
I run it. Can be rough sometimes if I have that and 2 other lands in hand at start of game. #getthere. Most people do not run targeted land destruction; however, I feel one should run at least 2 cards that can destroy a land (need to remove cabal or some other utility like another maze of ith). MoI works with Urborg. But do not count MoI as part of your land package.
Kensanity- Just saw your reply and had been planning on writing up my GAAIV list anyway. Just posted it here: GAAIV
Let me know what you think! Definitely a work in progress.
Awesome, I looked at your list and I'll make comments on your thread, but take my advice with a grain of salt as I don't feel as if my EDH meta is very competitive and I haven't played the format long enough to make any assertive claims.
I've updated the first post with my modified list and arranged it by card usage to kind of make it easier to analyze.
I do have a couple of cards I feel may have a spot in my list, but don't know what to cut or whether they are even worthy of the spots
Porphyry Nodes - I like its cost, and the fact that with my token generators, I can pretty much keep this on board for the entire game. I'm opting about taking out a board wipe to make room for this card.
Aura of Silence - Extremely taxing card, which I think can buy me a lot of time and keep things like my smokestack online. I'd remove karmic justice for this I think.
Mana Vortex That debilitating land removal that must be answered by my opponents. The UU cost and its speed makes me NOT want to play it, but its extremely powerful. Jury is out on this one.
Land Equilibrium - $20 for this and I still need other cards. Only reason why I haven't bit the bullet on this. I do like it. I'm guessing Solemn Simulacrum would be my first cut for this.
Thran Dynamo - How helpful is this? only adds colorless. I don't have a salvaging station engine etc.
Gilded Lotus - Like I mentioned earlier in my opening post, I like the mana it produces but I hate to see it in my opening hand. Addtionally, its not like I need to dump my entire hand out nor do i need to go from turn 5 to 8/9 drop. What do u guys think?
Thanks for taking a look! I'll go check out your thoughts back on my thread after I respond here. Regarding your points:
-I'm actually not so sure about Porphyry Nodes. You'll have to let me know how it actually plays in testing... I don't like that you have so little control over what gets destroyed. Looking at your deck if you have a token producer out, it will most likely just eat your token (since they are all 0-2 power) each turn. I almost like this card more in creatureless decks (or close), as it becomes completely one-sided.
-Aura of Silence is just an awesome card that would be solid for you. Perhaps get rid of the aforementioned board wipe for this to keep karmic justice in?
-I think that Mana Vortex is a really good card in the right deck. It does seem like you wouldn't want to drop it without a favorable board state. Are the rocks/oloro lifegain/token engines good enough to make this do work? I can also see this being rough against green ramp.
-Land Equilibrium seems really cool, but is a card I've never played with. It handles the aforementioned green ramp brutally, and is totally one-sided. It is a bit situational though... kind of goes back the the whole one-sided effects/prison build vs. all out stax if you compare the two cards.
-In terms of gilded lotus/thran dynamo... they (and smaller rocks) just get better as you add more stax effects that hit lands or LD sweepers to the deck. I don't have that much experience here... but I intuitively like the 1-3cc rocks better, as they don't clog up openers and seem to curve out your deck more effectively.
I've found that I never really wanted the land ramp nor the body at 4 mana. Its a pretty powerful card but I just dont' feel like it does "enough" in this format. additionally, I often am slowplaying lands so I can hit with cataclysm or armageddon so, yeah. Land equilibrium seems like a solid way to continue disruption after MLDs.
aura of silence and mana vortex
Still debating what to take out and put aura of silence and mana vortex in for. Sphere of safety never really does what I expect it to do, unless I have a propoganda or a few enchantments out - at which point it gets pretty incredible.
debt to the deathless
debt to the deathless seems a little slow. I never want it in my opening hand, but I can't deny the life swing that it causes.
supreme verdict
i'm debating substituting Supreme verdict in place of Day of judgement. The mana is slightly more difficult, but being uncounterable seems pretty relevant. There is a chance aura of silence should jsut replace the board wipe all together.
zur the enchanter
lastly, debating finding room for Zur the Enchanter. Following a smokestack or board wipe with him seems very good. Can get me the following if unchecked:
-land tax, mystic remora, bitterblossom, seal of cleansing, ghostly prison, karmic justice, necroptence, phyrexian arena, propganda and rhystic study -- that is almost all my card draw engines, some fort effects, a token creator and spot removal deterrence.
Aether Barrier
thinking about putting this in to slow down most creature based archetypes.
I am prepping this deck for a tournament next weekend. It's a 4 man FFA and I'm not sure how the pods work. I have enough combo win cons in the deck.
What I want to be prepared for is a dedicated mill deck and zur decks. I thinking of maybe splashing ulamog just to prevent deckingout although that is a nonbo with replenish. Jury still is out.
EDIT:
12/9/13 Deck changes
- pristine talisman, debt to the deathless, talisman of progress
+obelisk of esper, fellwar stone, aura of silence
changed 3 drop rock to one that added color mana, changed 2 drop rock for a "better rock" and added aura of silence by cutting an albeit weak win condition.
CURRENT DEBATES
Magosi, the Waterveil - I don't care about taking another turn, but using it to dodge the effects of smokestack or braids for 1 turn seems pretty good depending on board state. I have a lot of CITP lands anyway, not sure how this would REALLY hurt if i replaced one for this
Aether Barrier - Interesting option. don't know if I need it though.
Mana Vortex - just another source of land destruction. I don't know how playable it is for me considering the deck and the casting requirements. I have it though, so... its there
Supreme Verdict - is being uncounterable worth the slightly more difficult casting cost than day of judgement? Neither stops regeneration anyway.
Zur the Enchanter - considering getting my hands on this card. But is it worth it if it isn't my general? And what would I swap it with in my 99?
I finally got to get games in with my finalized deck list. All i can say is that stax is a really debilitating archetype.
The hardest thing to do in this deck though is end the game. There haev been games where I could easily lock people out with smokestack but against friends this seems, "too competitive".
Many times I've voluntarily sacrificed smokestack or static orb or something, just to give my opponents a chance to get into the game.
I used to not like cataclysm, but I definitely feel it has a place. As a late game answer when you are behind on board position, it can turn things around in a jiffy.
What i want to make room for, is a card that forces my opponents to lose their hands so that I can resolve my win cons with very little chance of removal/counter. Or maybe even something that gives enchantments hexproof/indestructibility?
should I put boseiju in?
REally enjoy the deck, I just wish that I had a better I win button so that my friends don't feel so dejected when I lock them out of the game LOL.
I finally got to get games in with my finalized deck list. All i can say is that stax is a really debilitating archetype.
The hardest thing to do in this deck though is end the game. There haev been games where I could easily lock people out with smokestack but against friends this seems, "too competitive".
Many times I've voluntarily sacrificed smokestack or static orb or something, just to give my opponents a chance to get into the game.
I used to not like cataclysm, but I definitely feel it has a place. As a late game answer when you are behind on board position, it can turn things around in a jiffy.
What i want to make room for, is a card that forces my opponents to lose their hands so that I can resolve my win cons with very little chance of removal/counter. Or maybe even something that gives enchantments hexproof/indestructibility?
should I put boseiju in?
REally enjoy the deck, I just wish that I had a better I win button so that my friends don't feel so dejected when I lock them out of the game LOL.
First of all, yes. Put in Boseiju.
Second of all, if you want players to lose their hands play the blue praetor:
Good advice. Myojin is easier to cast and more resilient than Jin. Just don't know what I pull out to put it in.
I would suggest either Propaganda or Ghostly Prison if you're confidant in your other stax effects. Redundancy is nice but unless your meta is creature heavy I think you only need one.
Side note: Did you really need to cut the pristine talisman for a rock that color fixes? Do you often get color screwed? Maybe it's just me but I always seem to get Talisman and Well of Lost Dreams together which turns talisman into "tap, draw a card and gain a life" essentially. Of course I think I might be developing a problematic obsession with card draw. My Oloro deck is starting to turn into one giant card draw engine.
I ran Show and Tell in my Sharuum list for a while. It worked, as early as turn 2 Future Sight and Sphinx of the Steel is back breaking against any B/R deck or decks with no way to get rid of it.
I've won the game against a Jund EDH with turn 4 Sharuum trigger into Sphinx of the Steel Wind. They had no removal, they were on a 4 clock with my board state; talk about a blowout, eh?
You said this list had combo elements right?
Turn 3 Show and Tell, Jin is GG against bad players. If you decimate the right player's hand with Mind Twist, you are safe to run out Show and Tell.
I would suggest either Propaganda or Ghostly Prison if you're confidant in your other stax effects. Redundancy is nice but unless your meta is creature heavy I think you only need one.
Side note: Did you really need to cut the pristine talisman for a rock that color fixes? Do you often get color screwed? Maybe it's just me but I always seem to get Talisman and Well of Lost Dreams together which turns talisman into "tap, draw a card and gain a life" essentially. Of course I think I might be developing a problematic obsession with card draw. My Oloro deck is starting to turn into one giant card draw engine.
My meta is pretty creature heavy, but I can see me cutting sphere of safety as it rarely impacts the board the way I'd like it to.
I opted for obelisk simply because if I was gonna spend three on a mana rock, I wanted it to make all my colors. If anything I can go back to another Tasman or signet. Pristine talisman is cool but win-more in my opinion.
You said this list had combo elements right?
Turn 3 Show and Tell, Jin is GG against bad players. If you decimate the right player's hand with Mind Twist, you are safe to run out Show and Tell.
I kind of dont want to add two cards to accomplish an effect when I could play one card to accomplish both. I'll-gotten gains is something I've been considering as well as necrogen mists but I find it very hard to use necrogen mists effectively. Is there an artifact that does something similar to myojin?
I would cut Sphere of Safety; it's too cute, and it only works in the most casual metas.
It's good your curve is very low already, if you don't want to run Jin, that's fine. It was a suggestion. Show and Tell is amazing, proxy it up. It will win you the game if you turn 0 Leyline and you cast it turn 3 with Helm of the Obedience in hand with open mana. You can Helm/Line whoever you want if you feel like being a jerk to your friends.
ill-Gotten Gains is really good at stopping players from sculpting their perfect hands with Brainstorm, Jace, Scroll Rack + Land Tax.
Necrogen Mists isn't very good unless you are all-in discard/reanimator/Stax Control EDH.
I would cut Sphere of Safety; it's too cute, and it only works in the most casual metas.
It's good your curve is very low already, if you don't want to run Jin, that's fine. It was a suggestion. Show and Tell is amazing, proxy it up. It will win you the game if you turn 0 Leyline and you cast it turn 3 with Helm of the Obedience in hand with open mana. You can Helm/Line whoever you want if you feel like being a jerk to your friends.
ill-Gotten Gains is really good at stopping players from sculpting their perfect hands with Brainstorm, Jace, Scroll Rack + Land Tax.
Necrogen Mists isn't very good unless you are all-in discard/reanimator/Stax Control EDH.
Sphere of safety is amazing if you play it right. "Now it went for costing 2 to attack me to 7... And I have a karmic justice out."
I agree about mists. It's better in grixis reanimator stax then esper pillow fort.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I would cut Sphere of Safety; it's too cute, and it only works in the most casual metas.
It's good your curve is very low already, if you don't want to run Jin, that's fine. It was a suggestion. Show and Tell is amazing, proxy it up. It will win you the game if you turn 0 Leyline and you cast it turn 3 with Helm of the Obedience in hand with open mana. You can Helm/Line whoever you want if you feel like being a jerk to your friends.
Well I own both cards so I can play em certainly. But in my limited testing with the deck I rarely find myself with 10 mana to cast it unless the game has gone like literally 2.5 hours.
I see what u are saying though and I wouldn't mind testing it for a while. I just like how myojin is a little more resilient and clears the way immediately for my enchant win con's. On the other hand a jin that does one time around the board on turn 3 pretty much is straight win.
Edh is a funny thing. My meta has some decks like bruna or room, and then there are guys running sharruum with combo or kiki+exarch kind of stuff.
I was running creaturless oath initially but people were kind of upset with turn 3/4 wins with counter back up (yet they running kiki-pestermite?)
I sense their disgust with stax this past week but I think it actually takes some planning and forethought to pilot correctly. Certainly not free wins with everyone ganging up on you.
Of all the edh decks I've played in my limited experience, I find this the most "fair" in terms of interaction and definitely the most fun.
I sense their disgust with stax this past week but I think it actually takes some planning and forethought to pilot correctly. Certainly not free wins with everyone ganging up on you.
Of all the edh decks I've played in my limited experience, I find this the most "fair" in terms of interaction and definitely the most fun.
Everyone hates the stax player. EDH for a lot of people is about actually playing those cards they don't get to use in other formats as much. Stax makes it so they have a hard time playing those cards.
I find that stax is only worth running for things like serious competition (tourney or the most cutthroat of metas) or when someone has pissed you off and you want revenge. Or if you don't actually like your play group.
Counts : 100 main / 6 sideboard
Commander
6 Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Card Draw
1 Mystic Remora
3 Augury Adept
3 Necropotence
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Rhystic Study
4 Well of Lost Dreams
7 Drogskol Reaver
Tutors
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Trinket Mage
4 Academy Rector
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
Token Generators
0 Springjack Pasture
2 Bitterblossom
4 Trading Post
6 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
6 Grave Titan
Mana Rocks
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Azorius Signet
2 Orzhov Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Fellwar Stone
3 Chromatic Lantern
3 Darksteel Ingot
3 Obelisk of Esper
Prison Effects
1 Meekstone
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Propaganda
5 Sphere of Safety
Graveyard Hate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Leyline of the Void
Recursion
0 Academy Ruins
0 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Land Tax
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Replenish
6 Sun Titan
Sac Effects
3 Death Cloud
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Smokestack
4 Cataclysm
2 Winter Orb
3 Aura of Silence
3 Static Orb
3 Tangle Wire
4 Armageddon
4 Land Equilibrium
Board Wipes
3 Toxic Deluge
4 Damnation
4 Day of Judgment
6 Terminus
Spot Removal
1 Condemn
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Oblation
3 Karmic Justice
Win Conditions
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Test of Endurance
5 Exquisite Blood
5 Sanguine Bond
Utility
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Torpor Orb
Man Lands
0 Celestial Colonnade
0 Creeping Tar Pit
Lands
0 Ancient Den
0 Seat of the Synod
0 Vault of Whispers
0 Arcane Sanctum
0 Azorius Chancery
0 City of Brass
0 Command Tower
0 Esper Panorama
0 Gemstone Mine
0 Glacial Fortress
0 Glimmervoid
0 Godless Shrine
3 Island
0 Isolated Chapel
0 Orzhov Basilica
5 Plains
0 Rupture Spire
0 Strip Mine
5 Swamp
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Watery Grave
0 Magosi, the Waterveil
3 Aether Barrier
3 Mana Vortex
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Zur the Enchanter
Here are a couple of comments on my reasoning for some of the deck roles and the card choices within the roles.
Commander - Oloro imo is a perfect stalling Commander. The two life doesn't seem that big of a deal but with stuff like phyrexian arena or necro, that life gain can really be used as utility. I probably will never cast oloro, unless there is a truly locked down board state.
Lastly, I've always felt that Esper is probably the best combination of colors for control.
Card Draw - Instead of going for raw power through stuff like sphinx's revelations, I rather have that overwhelming incremental draw that just buries your opponent in card advantage. I'm hoping rhystic study, remora, and well of lost dreams are going to overperform, while phyrexian arena and necropotence will also pull in work when i need that serious dig.
Tutors - self explanatory. Mysticl for Armageddon/wraths/spot removal, demonic for whatever, rector for utility enchants. Tezz;s are there for more artifacts AND because they give me another avenue of attack as well as untapping tapped artifacts etc
Token Makers - I possibly have too many. I have a couple of sac effects and I have no equipment, so i'm thinking this is a place where I can make some cuts. ON the other hand, this will greatly improve the power of my smokestack and braids.
Mana Rocks - I can't afford Mana Crypt. On the advice of more experienced stax players i've removed gilded lotus. I don't think its that bad tbh, but I never do want to see it in my opening hand.
Prison Effects - pretty self explanatory
Graveyard Hate - just spellbomb and leyline. Leyline + helm to kill an opponent. nice little utility I guess. Rest in peace is an option, but I do want access to my graveyard more often than not
Recursion - Sun titan for cheap enchants and for mana rocks+lands after armageddon or smokestacks, or cataclysm etc. Crucible for lands etc
Sac - smokestack and braids are the ones that I want to stick around the most. Not sure what the best way is to accomplish this etc. I have no counterspells in my deck, and I'm adamant about going this route. Because i'im so artifact and enchantment heavy,I find cataclysm to be the most difficult card to use correctly.
Tap+mana disruption - I like this part of my list most. Tanglewire is great, static orb+winter orb is great etc. I like tezzeret here to help untap these permanents.
Board wipes - maybe too many wipes? I can see me cutting 1
Spot removal - terminus+ condemn and oblation as some tuck effects to hurt commanders that swing, and then a couple other choice removal spells like seal of cleansing and karmic justice -- both recurrable with replenish or sun titan
Win cons - exquisite blood + sanguine bond, helm of obedience + leyline, test of endurance+debt to deathless etc. win cons that can win games out of nowhere.
Utility - torpor orb to negate ETB effects, which are huge in the format apparently. Top for that card filter.
Man lands - I have 2 here, however I may cut them as I don't think they have synergy with my deck. I don't run equipment and I rarely need a chump blocker, NOR are either particularly easy to cast. I'd rather run inkmoth or mutavault, but even then, i'd rather have colored mana sources I think.
EDIT:
12/9/13 Deck changes
- pristine talisman, debt to the deathless, talisman of progress
+obelisk of esper, fellwar stone, aura of silence
changed 3 drop rock to one that added color mana, changed 2 drop rock for a "better rock" and added aura of silence by cutting an albeit weak win condition.
CURRENT DEBATES
Magosi, the Waterveil - I don't care about taking another turn, but using it to dodge the effects of smokestack or braids for 1 turn seems pretty good depending on board state. I have a lot of CITP lands anyway, not sure how this would REALLY hurt if i replaced one for this
Aether Barrier - Interesting option. don't know if I need it though.
Mana Vortex - just another source of land destruction. I don't know how playable it is for me considering the deck and the casting requirements. I have it though, so... its there
Supreme Verdict - is being uncounterable worth the slightly more difficult casting cost than day of judgement? Neither stops regeneration anyway.
Zur the Enchanter - considering getting my hands on this card. But is it worth it if it isn't my general? And what would I swap it with in my 99?
-Yawgmoth's Bargain is banned, so necropotence it is!
-With Tunnel Vision in the deck it's worth running some of the better tuck spells. Some good ones include:
-Serra Ascendant is really good in this deck... but won't make you any friends
-Swords to Plowshares is too good to be missed imo... best removal ever printed, and can gain you life in a pinch
-Speaking of life... if you are going to focus on life gain, Felidar Sovereign and Test of Endurance may be worth considering
-Some possible things to cut:
Hope this helps!
Karador: Toolbox Hatebears
Edric: Flying Men and Extra Turns
Jhoira: Eldrazi and Sweepers
GAAIV: Control Goodstuff + Combo + Prison
Kiki-Jiki: ETB Goodstuff and Combo
Thrun: Gear+Removal+Draw=Trollsmash
Yikes! Did not realize bargain was banned. I have mystic remora, and a bunch of draw cards already... U think I should replace that slot with one of your other suggestions instead of necropotence?
Thanks for the advice I'm going to make some of those changes
Can u explain why I should run some of those tuck spells ? Don't see what tunnel vision compliments with there?
Edit: I'm so boneheaded... U target them /facepalm
Also, it might be that Propaganda is better for you than Crawlspace in this deck... especially since it doesn't help you at all against eldrazi/voltron/etc. Nice to slow down peoples turns if they choose to attack you, as this will make them think twice.
Another thing is that with the inclusion of some crucial instants/sorceries (you now have the tuck/tunnel combo), Mystical Tutor may warrant a slot.
Also, I just noticed that you run Helm of Obedience, I'd definitely run Rest in Peace alongside it. Together, activating the helm at 1 mana exiles an entire library (the cards never hit the grave so you just keep going). Also this stops grave based strategies and barely affects your game outside of when you have an active sun titan.
As I mentioned before, unless you are 1v1, I find vanilla beaters (even with hexproof evasion) to be very meh in decks like you're building. Geist of Saint Traft for instance seems out of place to me.
I'm working on my own GAAIV deck and a using the helm/RIP and tuck/tunnel vision combos as my primary win cons outside of titan beats... bolstered by a have a heavy stax/control theme. Seems we're building very overlapping decks!
Karador: Toolbox Hatebears
Edric: Flying Men and Extra Turns
Jhoira: Eldrazi and Sweepers
GAAIV: Control Goodstuff + Combo + Prison
Kiki-Jiki: ETB Goodstuff and Combo
Thrun: Gear+Removal+Draw=Trollsmash
Captain Sisay - Efficient Toolbox Control
Kemba, Kha Regent - Equipment & Mini-stax
that seems like perfect tech for some things in my meta. I'm going to see if i can fit this in somewhere. I haven't bought all the cards I've listed anyway, so its possible i can make an obvious cut for this somewhere.
Followed your advice but I still find the mana base very rough. Here's my update. Going with a more artifact and mana rock heavy build, but still. Can be rough.
1 Augury Adept
1 Daxos of Meletis
1 Academy Rector
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Grave Titan
1 Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
1 Sun Titan
1 Drogskol Reaver
Artifacts:24
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Mana Vault
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Azorius Signet
1 Defense Grid
1 Scroll Rack
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Torpor Orb
1 Winter Orb
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Obelisk of Esper
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Static Orb
1 Tangle Wire
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Smokestack
1 Trading Post
1 Well of Lost Dreams
1 Gilded Lotus
Sorceries:9
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Death Cloud
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Damnation
1 Day of Judgment
1 Debt to the Deathless
1 Replenish
Instants:6
1 Condemn
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Oblation
1 Cryptic Command
1 Land Tax
1 Mystic Remora
1 Bitterblossom
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Necrogen Mists
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Propaganda
1 Rhystic Study
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Test of Endurance
1 Exquisite Blood
1 Sanguine Bond
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Omniscience
Others:2
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Lands:35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Esper Panorama
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Glimmervoid
1 Godless Shrine
3 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Opal Palace
1 Orzhov Basilica
4 Plains
1 Rupture Spire
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Strip Mine
5 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Karmic Justice
1 Mana Vortex
I'm trying to squeeze the three cards in my sb somewhere into my 100. Not sure i even like the 100 that I have right now. Especially worried about the lands. I have 38 and I made three of them the artifact ones tutorable by my now available tezzerets.
In testing I've found condemn and oblation to be incredible.
Cryptic command on the other hand is cool, but I find it hard to cast.
I added scroll rack as a means to go deeper into my deck to find the effects I want. Access to tutors provide a way to reshuffle if I don't find what I want as well.
Not sure how important academy rector and omniscience is. Like rector helps find whatever I want pretty much and I'm assuming omniscience is probably the best I can find. However, seems so slow as I never want to see it in my first 40 cards and I want to keep low mana in the board mist of the time. Probably better as mana vortex or something.
Lastly, I have so many useful artifacts at 1 or less. I'm thinking of squeezing in meekstone and trinket Mage. What to cut tho?
I wonder if the overall issue is really about taking the deck in a few different directions. I think if I were you I'd either go all out on the stax, removing some goodstuff in favor of adding more token producers/other things to make your stax 1-sided, and perhaps even find space for a few pox effects (you already run deathcloud). Alternatively, you could get rid of smokestack/necrogen mists/deathcloud/etc (keeping all of the best tax/naturally lopsided effects), and include more awesome draw/counter/removal spells... and put a little more juice into your lifegain/combo wincons (adding things like felidar sovereign, along with rest in peace if you're keeping helm of obedience in the deck).
Here are some more thoughts:
-If budget isn't an issue, the next step for you is to get all 9 of the onslaught and zendikar fetchlands, along with underground sea/tundra/scrubland (but I recognize this is extremely expensive). Also, getting Hallowed Fountain to complete that cycle of lands in your deck will help. Some cheaper options that can still prove a big improvement would be getting the 3 appropriate filter lands, like Mystic Gate, as they are really solid. Stuff like Adarkar Wastes in all of the appropriate colors will make a big difference too.
-Some cool rocks I'm not seeing: Mana Crypt[/CARD (if budget is not a thing), Coalition Relic (this one helps with hitting harder casting costs if you put a counter on it at your opponents EOT), Orzhov/Dimir Signets, and Talisman of Progress. Also, Darksteel Ingot is strictly better than Obelisk of Esper.
-I agree on tucks being really good in this format! If you are going to play a lot of them... Tunnel Vision will just take a player out very unexpectedly. I would consider Spell Crumple and Hinder (possibly to replace the difficult to cast Cryptic Command if you can't update landbase to include fetches/ABU duals). Spin Into Myth is also really awesome... it can just totally newter some decks by tucking their commander even if you aren't winning with the aforementioned combo (I'd only add this if you are getting rid of some stax)
-Omniscience is an awesome but situational card that I don't have much experience playing with yet (iffy inclusion in my GAAIV deck that I'm starting to test). It certainly is cumbersome in the early game, where you don't want to see it unless you are fetching with Rector. Speaking of which, you may need some more ways to kill your academy rector reliably to make this worthwhile. Let me know how it works you for you! Perhaps something to cut...
-I agree that Trinket Mage belongs in this deck... cut suggestions to follow
-How have your symmetrical stax effects been working for you? I'm thinking of Smokestack, Necrogen Mists, Winter Orb etc. I am wondering if you might need a few more token producers or things that spit permanents into play to make these effects as lopsided as possible. The one-sided tax effects are unquestionably awesome in here.
-How's Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas been for you? You do have a high artifact count, and it seems like it fits well if you hit the artifacts you need consistently!
-It may be that the best thing to do is to keep the best of the best stax cards, getting rid of subpar ones to increase overall card quality (perhaps adding more tutor/draw).
-Some other suggestions for possible cuts:
Let me know how it goes!
Karador: Toolbox Hatebears
Edric: Flying Men and Extra Turns
Jhoira: Eldrazi and Sweepers
GAAIV: Control Goodstuff + Combo + Prison
Kiki-Jiki: ETB Goodstuff and Combo
Thrun: Gear+Removal+Draw=Trollsmash
I appreciate your feedback and while I didn't make all changes, it definitely does not fall on deaf ears. I do not like necrogen mists or similar discard effects. Maybe liliana of the veil, but not uncontrollable discard like bottomless pit. I've cut necrogen mists for another mana rock (darksteel ingot)
I am kind or under budget, which is why u don't see more fetches nor the filter lands and mana crypt. I only have verdant catacombs which is why I don't include hallowed fountain as I can't find it with my fetch.
-I like the tucks but I don't want to fit something situational like tunnel vision around it. I prefer to play the non threatening guy who is playing the game out and then win by killing all if my opponents at one time.
Regarding omniscience, I've never casted it once outside of using academy rector and the thing is, most of the time I want the rector to find me something else. I've cut omniscience and cryptic command and replaced them with trinket Mage and meekstone.
-
I like copies of effects whether it is tangle wire or winter orb or rhystic study or mystic remora these things help generate consistency. I'm probably way too wrath heavy, but so far I don't mind. Also, I really like the inclusion of the tezzerets. It affects my curve, but I'm so artifact heavy that I'm really getting value out of +1 all the time. Whether it be as a tutor or just to untap 2 mana rocks which I tapped for tangle wire or static orb etc.
I'm trying to get used to not playing cards every turn. Like just being happy with one or 2 artifacts out there and purposely holding back land in my hand. It so far makes my opponents feel as if I'm not threatening and then I just blow em out with wipes and resource denial (tap effects or land destruction).
All this to just buy time when I drop some enchantment win con. Daxos and augury adept probably don't belong. Should probably be a talisman or signet as well as false prophet. But I like them as placeholders so far.
Updated list
Counts : 100 main / 2 sideboard
Creatures:9
1 Augury Adept
1 Trinket Mage
1 Academy Rector
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Grave Titan
1 Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
1 Sun Titan
1 Drogskol Reaver
Artifacts:25
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Mana Vault
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Azorius Signet
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Scroll Rack
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Torpor Orb
1 Winter Orb
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Static Orb
1 Tangle Wire
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Smokestack
1 Trading Post
1 Well of Lost Dreams
Sorceries:9
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Death Cloud
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Damnation
1 Day of Judgment
1 Debt to the Deathless
1 Replenish
Instants:5
1 Condemn
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Oblation
Enchantments:14
1 Land Tax
1 Mystic Remora
1 Bitterblossom
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Karmic Justice
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Propaganda
1 Rhystic Study
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Test of Endurance
1 Exquisite Blood
1 Sanguine Bond
1 Sphere of Safety
Others:3
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands:35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Esper Panorama
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Glimmervoid
1 Godless Shrine
3 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Opal Palace
1 Orzhov Basilica
4 Plains
1 Rupture Spire
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Strip Mine
5 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
Sideboard:2
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Mana Vortex
I'd also love to see what u are brewing!
I run it. Can be rough sometimes if I have that and 2 other lands in hand at start of game. #getthere. Most people do not run targeted land destruction; however, I feel one should run at least 2 cards that can destroy a land (need to remove cabal or some other utility like another maze of ith). MoI works with Urborg. But do not count MoI as part of your land package.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Let me know what you think! Definitely a work in progress.
Karador: Toolbox Hatebears
Edric: Flying Men and Extra Turns
Jhoira: Eldrazi and Sweepers
GAAIV: Control Goodstuff + Combo + Prison
Kiki-Jiki: ETB Goodstuff and Combo
Thrun: Gear+Removal+Draw=Trollsmash
Awesome, I looked at your list and I'll make comments on your thread, but take my advice with a grain of salt as I don't feel as if my EDH meta is very competitive and I haven't played the format long enough to make any assertive claims.
I've updated the first post with my modified list and arranged it by card usage to kind of make it easier to analyze.
I do have a couple of cards I feel may have a spot in my list, but don't know what to cut or whether they are even worthy of the spots
Porphyry Nodes - I like its cost, and the fact that with my token generators, I can pretty much keep this on board for the entire game. I'm opting about taking out a board wipe to make room for this card.
Aura of Silence - Extremely taxing card, which I think can buy me a lot of time and keep things like my smokestack online. I'd remove karmic justice for this I think.
Mana Vortex That debilitating land removal that must be answered by my opponents. The UU cost and its speed makes me NOT want to play it, but its extremely powerful. Jury is out on this one.
Land Equilibrium - $20 for this and I still need other cards. Only reason why I haven't bit the bullet on this. I do like it. I'm guessing Solemn Simulacrum would be my first cut for this.
Thran Dynamo - How helpful is this? only adds colorless. I don't have a salvaging station engine etc.
Gilded Lotus - Like I mentioned earlier in my opening post, I like the mana it produces but I hate to see it in my opening hand. Addtionally, its not like I need to dump my entire hand out nor do i need to go from turn 5 to 8/9 drop. What do u guys think?
Thanks for taking a look! I'll go check out your thoughts back on my thread after I respond here. Regarding your points:
-I'm actually not so sure about Porphyry Nodes. You'll have to let me know how it actually plays in testing... I don't like that you have so little control over what gets destroyed. Looking at your deck if you have a token producer out, it will most likely just eat your token (since they are all 0-2 power) each turn. I almost like this card more in creatureless decks (or close), as it becomes completely one-sided.
-Aura of Silence is just an awesome card that would be solid for you. Perhaps get rid of the aforementioned board wipe for this to keep karmic justice in?
-I think that Mana Vortex is a really good card in the right deck. It does seem like you wouldn't want to drop it without a favorable board state. Are the rocks/oloro lifegain/token engines good enough to make this do work? I can also see this being rough against green ramp.
-Land Equilibrium seems really cool, but is a card I've never played with. It handles the aforementioned green ramp brutally, and is totally one-sided. It is a bit situational though... kind of goes back the the whole one-sided effects/prison build vs. all out stax if you compare the two cards.
-In terms of gilded lotus/thran dynamo... they (and smaller rocks) just get better as you add more stax effects that hit lands or LD sweepers to the deck. I don't have that much experience here... but I intuitively like the 1-3cc rocks better, as they don't clog up openers and seem to curve out your deck more effectively.
Let me know how it goes!
Karador: Toolbox Hatebears
Edric: Flying Men and Extra Turns
Jhoira: Eldrazi and Sweepers
GAAIV: Control Goodstuff + Combo + Prison
Kiki-Jiki: ETB Goodstuff and Combo
Thrun: Gear+Removal+Draw=Trollsmash
+ Land Equilibrium
I've found that I never really wanted the land ramp nor the body at 4 mana. Its a pretty powerful card but I just dont' feel like it does "enough" in this format. additionally, I often am slowplaying lands so I can hit with cataclysm or armageddon so, yeah. Land equilibrium seems like a solid way to continue disruption after MLDs.
aura of silence and mana vortex
Still debating what to take out and put aura of silence and mana vortex in for. Sphere of safety never really does what I expect it to do, unless I have a propoganda or a few enchantments out - at which point it gets pretty incredible.
debt to the deathless
debt to the deathless seems a little slow. I never want it in my opening hand, but I can't deny the life swing that it causes.
supreme verdict
i'm debating substituting Supreme verdict in place of Day of judgement. The mana is slightly more difficult, but being uncounterable seems pretty relevant. There is a chance aura of silence should jsut replace the board wipe all together.
zur the enchanter
lastly, debating finding room for Zur the Enchanter. Following a smokestack or board wipe with him seems very good. Can get me the following if unchecked:
-land tax, mystic remora, bitterblossom, seal of cleansing, ghostly prison, karmic justice, necroptence, phyrexian arena, propganda and rhystic study -- that is almost all my card draw engines, some fort effects, a token creator and spot removal deterrence.
Aether Barrier
thinking about putting this in to slow down most creature based archetypes.
What I want to be prepared for is a dedicated mill deck and zur decks. I thinking of maybe splashing ulamog just to prevent deckingout although that is a nonbo with replenish. Jury still is out.
EDIT:
12/9/13 Deck changes
- pristine talisman, debt to the deathless, talisman of progress
+obelisk of esper, fellwar stone, aura of silence
changed 3 drop rock to one that added color mana, changed 2 drop rock for a "better rock" and added aura of silence by cutting an albeit weak win condition.
CURRENT DEBATES
Magosi, the Waterveil - I don't care about taking another turn, but using it to dodge the effects of smokestack or braids for 1 turn seems pretty good depending on board state. I have a lot of CITP lands anyway, not sure how this would REALLY hurt if i replaced one for this
Aether Barrier - Interesting option. don't know if I need it though.
Mana Vortex - just another source of land destruction. I don't know how playable it is for me considering the deck and the casting requirements. I have it though, so... its there
Supreme Verdict - is being uncounterable worth the slightly more difficult casting cost than day of judgement? Neither stops regeneration anyway.
Zur the Enchanter - considering getting my hands on this card. But is it worth it if it isn't my general? And what would I swap it with in my 99?
The hardest thing to do in this deck though is end the game. There haev been games where I could easily lock people out with smokestack but against friends this seems, "too competitive".
Many times I've voluntarily sacrificed smokestack or static orb or something, just to give my opponents a chance to get into the game.
I used to not like cataclysm, but I definitely feel it has a place. As a late game answer when you are behind on board position, it can turn things around in a jiffy.
What i want to make room for, is a card that forces my opponents to lose their hands so that I can resolve my win cons with very little chance of removal/counter. Or maybe even something that gives enchantments hexproof/indestructibility?
should I put boseiju in?
REally enjoy the deck, I just wish that I had a better I win button so that my friends don't feel so dejected when I lock them out of the game LOL.
First of all, yes. Put in Boseiju.
Second of all, if you want players to lose their hands play the blue praetor:
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
or
The black Myojin
Myojin of Night's Reach
or
Notion Thief + a wheel (Time Spiral would be my pick so you get your mana back)
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Good advice. Myojin is easier to cast and more resilient than Jin. Just don't know what I pull out to put it in.
I would suggest either Propaganda or Ghostly Prison if you're confidant in your other stax effects. Redundancy is nice but unless your meta is creature heavy I think you only need one.
Side note: Did you really need to cut the pristine talisman for a rock that color fixes? Do you often get color screwed? Maybe it's just me but I always seem to get Talisman and Well of Lost Dreams together which turns talisman into "tap, draw a card and gain a life" essentially. Of course I think I might be developing a problematic obsession with card draw. My Oloro deck is starting to turn into one giant card draw engine.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I ran Show and Tell in my Sharuum list for a while. It worked, as early as turn 2 Future Sight and Sphinx of the Steel is back breaking against any B/R deck or decks with no way to get rid of it.
I've won the game against a Jund EDH with turn 4 Sharuum trigger into Sphinx of the Steel Wind. They had no removal, they were on a 4 clock with my board state; talk about a blowout, eh?
You said this list had combo elements right?
Turn 3 Show and Tell, Jin is GG against bad players. If you decimate the right player's hand with Mind Twist, you are safe to run out Show and Tell.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
My meta is pretty creature heavy, but I can see me cutting sphere of safety as it rarely impacts the board the way I'd like it to.
I opted for obelisk simply because if I was gonna spend three on a mana rock, I wanted it to make all my colors. If anything I can go back to another Tasman or signet. Pristine talisman is cool but win-more in my opinion.
I kind of dont want to add two cards to accomplish an effect when I could play one card to accomplish both. I'll-gotten gains is something I've been considering as well as necrogen mists but I find it very hard to use necrogen mists effectively. Is there an artifact that does something similar to myojin?
It's good your curve is very low already, if you don't want to run Jin, that's fine. It was a suggestion. Show and Tell is amazing, proxy it up. It will win you the game if you turn 0 Leyline and you cast it turn 3 with Helm of the Obedience in hand with open mana. You can Helm/Line whoever you want if you feel like being a jerk to your friends.
ill-Gotten Gains is really good at stopping players from sculpting their perfect hands with Brainstorm, Jace, Scroll Rack + Land Tax.
Necrogen Mists isn't very good unless you are all-in discard/reanimator/Stax Control EDH.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Sphere of safety is amazing if you play it right. "Now it went for costing 2 to attack me to 7... And I have a karmic justice out."
I agree about mists. It's better in grixis reanimator stax then esper pillow fort.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Well I own both cards so I can play em certainly. But in my limited testing with the deck I rarely find myself with 10 mana to cast it unless the game has gone like literally 2.5 hours.
I see what u are saying though and I wouldn't mind testing it for a while. I just like how myojin is a little more resilient and clears the way immediately for my enchant win con's. On the other hand a jin that does one time around the board on turn 3 pretty much is straight win.
Edh is a funny thing. My meta has some decks like bruna or room, and then there are guys running sharruum with combo or kiki+exarch kind of stuff.
I was running creaturless oath initially but people were kind of upset with turn 3/4 wins with counter back up (yet they running kiki-pestermite?)
I sense their disgust with stax this past week but I think it actually takes some planning and forethought to pilot correctly. Certainly not free wins with everyone ganging up on you.
Of all the edh decks I've played in my limited experience, I find this the most "fair" in terms of interaction and definitely the most fun.
Everyone hates the stax player. EDH for a lot of people is about actually playing those cards they don't get to use in other formats as much. Stax makes it so they have a hard time playing those cards.
I find that stax is only worth running for things like serious competition (tourney or the most cutthroat of metas) or when someone has pissed you off and you want revenge. Or if you don't actually like your play group.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB