Cutoff time is noon on Monday 16th Dec my time (or 4am GMT... yeah, I'm on the other side of the planet, I know). I have been known to accept late entries if I haven't done the results yet, and I've also been known to extend deadlines.
An additional rule for this one... feel free to give me an entire cycle of lands in one slot (e.g. "20 - A/B/U/R Duals"). Alternately, feel free to break cycles up. I'll figure it out.
As always, please have a go at this - the more people join in, the better the discussion is, the more accurate the rankings are, the better our guides are, and the better your deckbuilding becomes. Thanks in advance!
We had 7 voters across the MTGS Cube forum, MTGS Multiplayer forum, WotC Multiplayer forum and my own playgroup. Thanks for your votes, guys!
Every card that received a top vote got multiples. The Revised Duals head the list with three top votes, but were almost chased down by both Tolarian Academy and Library of Alexandria (which both received two).
Those 7 people voted for 108 different cards (mostly in cycles, thankfully)! 61 of those received multiple votes.
There are no new entries to the Top 20 this year, mostly because we've split out the duals and fetches in a few cases in 2013 (where we didn't last year).
I might edit this, but I'm thinking of two lists - the first list of cards that would be useful in a variety of decks (i.e., 40% of MP decks), and the second list of cards that are broken in the right deck. Since versatility is valuable, I'll put the first list over the second list.
Library of Alexandria (I think card draw is far better than enabling 2/3 color decks)
I might edit this, but I'm thinking of two lists - the first list of cards that would be useful in a variety of decks (i.e., 40% of MP decks), and the second list of cards that are broken in the right deck. Since versatility is valuable, I'll put the first list over the second list.
I'm confused by this. Functionally, these are all the same card and should be in the second list. Any rationale behind putting Gaea's Cradle in the first list? The same could be argued for Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins as well.
I almost want to segment this category into mana producing and non-mana producing lands because evaluating both in the same pool seems unfair. My vote combines cards that are functionally the same, but target a different permanent type.
Library of Alexandria
Mishra's Workshop
Bazaar of Bagdad
Tolarian Academy
A/B/U Duals
Fetchlands
Cloudpost
Gaea's Cradle
Volrath's Stronghold
Academy Ruins
Cabal Coffers
Zendikar manlands
City of Brass
Shocklands
Ancient Tomb
Strip Mine
Maze of Ith
Alchemist's Refuge
Slayer's Stronghold
Karakas
Any rationale behind putting Gaea's Cradle in the first list?
Perhaps I'm being too liberal with my self-imposed 40% guideline, but Green would be represented in 20% of monocolor decks, 40% of 2-color decks, and 60% of 3-color decks. And I figure creatures are the most common strategy - with far greater representation than artifacts or enchantments.
Cloudpost might be on the wrong list, but every deck (that I've seen) that runs it also builds around it, which is not necessary for the Cradle.
Perhaps I'm being too liberal with my self-imposed 40% guideline, but Green would be represented in 20% of monocolor decks, 40% of 2-color decks, and 60% of 3-color decks. And I figure creatures are the most common strategy - with far greater representation than artifacts or enchantments.
Cloudpost might be on the wrong list, but every deck (that I've seen) that runs it also builds around it, which is not necessary for the Cradle.
I'm still not following your logic 100% here. Creatures may be a more common strategy for Green, but the deck still needs to be built around; if you play all ramp and a few beefy creature, it doesn't work. You need a token strategy and q land to truly exploit the Cradle.
Also, Blue decks use artifacts just as frequently as Green decks use creatures, if not more so. The White using enchantments is valid, but most BW, UW and WG use enchantments as a base for the strategy.
I like your 40% approach, I just think all three should be on the same line just like dual lands. All three allow the same advantage relevant to the mana color they produce.
Creatures may be a more common strategy for Green, but the deck still needs to be built around; if you play all ramp and a few beefy creatures, it doesn't work. You need a token strategy and q land to truly exploit the Cradle.
I disagree there. GW Maverick and a bunch of EDH decks play the Cradle without either a token strategy or untap ability. (I reference Legacy and EDH formats because those players have access to $130 cards.) GC sort of abuses itself - wait, that came out wrong.
Also, Blue decks use artifacts just as frequently as Green decks use creatures, if not more so.
More so than 99%? It's a pretty limited inventory of Green decks w/o any creatures or creature generators...
You are certainly welcome to disagree with my rankings, though! For example, I need to promote something over Bojuka Bog - while it's a reasonably useful card, it's hardly amazing in MP.
Tolarian Academy - I know I'm not the only one that groans when I see an academy deck. Even if there are no untapping shenanigans, the amount that this one land puts you ahead is gross. Library of Alexandria - I've never actually seen this played outside of cube, but whenever it is in the opening 7, there's a good chance that player is winning the game. Gaea's Cradle - Much less groanworthy than the academy, because wraths are a lot more common than shatterstorms. Still, a good cradle activation can mean the game. Volrath's Stronghold - The strongest "Fair" non-basic in my opinion. Drawing your best dead creature every turn is an incredible deal. Cabal Coffers - MBC explodes when this hits
ABU Duels Maze of Ith - Having a free option for combat is HUGE game. Vault of the Archangel - I love this card because of the RTFC blowouts. Cloudpost + Glimmerpost + Vesuva - Probably the cheapest $$$ wise mana engine - the number of decks that can just get away with this is gross. Krosan Verge + Fetches Kessig Wolf Run - Nasty card with Big Mana or in those Lurking Predators decks Emeria, The Sky Ruin - I like this card on cockatrice, because you can just run all duels and get this ability "for free." I have Cleric Kaalia of the Vast deck with Angel of Glory's Rise that is Very 3 colors and still able to run this gem. Yavimaya Hollow - Great because it so easily slips under the radar. Most wraths aren't actual Wrath of God, so this ability is great to just leave up. Serra's Sanctum - Never really seen an enchantress deck I didn't despise, but this does work there. Glacial Chasm - Fantastic card in MBC or Big Red Mishra's Workshop - I've actually never seen this played, likely because it is considered too powerful for casual. High Market + Phyrexian Tower - I love these free effects that keep your fatties in the GY instead of exile or on your opponent's board.
Thawing Glaciers(I can't decide whether to be sad that I was the only one that voted for this card, or happy that the rest of you apparently need introduction to how good this card is!)
I think the core disconnect is that I don't think those cards are all functional reprints - I don't like disregarding Bl00m's rules.
Correct, they aren't, though I can definitely see why people would want to rank them all on one line, and support those who would want to do so.
For newer players who haven't seen any of these, imagine them as playing like Nykthos does (in terms of using devotion) - their quality is entirely dependent on how quickly you reach a healthy level of devotion. In the race between artifacts, creatures and enchantments, there are so many good 0cc artifacts that Academy wins every time. But Cradle is a pretty good second. Given the distinct lack of game-breaking 0-1CC enchantments, Sanctum is a poor third. I am yet to break it open hard after 15 years of trying.
I'll add the final touches to the results when I am able, and post a summary thread shortly. Recommended 2013 Multiplayer Cube list coming when I get a chance to throw it all together.
Thanks again for your votes!
Here we see the difference between cube and multiplayer. While almost every mana producing lands are outclassed by dual/fetch/basic, it isn't the case in singleton format where there's room for the subpars lands.
I'm genuinely shocked that anyone would rate a single fetchland or dual above any of the others. It's almost as if $ value was used without any consideration for play value.
I'm genuinely shocked that anyone would rate every colors at the same power level. It's as if no consideration to each colors play value was given.
I'm going to respond as this is not a troll. All dual color combos have equal play value. Deck construction choices by the individual may skew the relative play value based on that player's personal choices, but it does not alter the viability of said card in a deck using those colors.
Of course, voting is subjective by nature, but I submit that next year (and future years) should not allow votes for single cards that are identically the same but have different color combos. All dual lands must be voted as a group, all fetch lands must be voted as a group, and all shard lands must be voted as a group. The rest are not identical copies, but function copies and should remain at the choice of the voter to group or keep single.
Of course, voting is subjective by nature, but I submit that next year (and future years) should not allow votes for single cards that are identically the same but have different color combos. All dual lands must be voted as a group, all fetch lands must be voted as a group, and all shard lands must be voted as a group. The rest are not identical copies, but function copies and should remain at the choice of the voter to group or keep single.
Yeah, good call, that one. I think we can probably get onboard with that from next year. Much as I find it kind of cute to see them all split up like that, and amuses me in that we find some Revised duals ranked lower than non-Revised duals simply because they got split up, it also frustrates me in that the average n00b coming along in six months time and reading the results is only going to skim the Top 20 and see nothing but cards they can't afford (and if we keep it to cycles, this gets avoided).
The format is slow enough to fix an early mana problem.
I think this systemic of a larger difference; some people equate the format named Casual with the play style casual.
I can tell you that in the metas I play, they are not equal and Casual format is highly competitive. In this case, dual lands should be at the top because you are going for a turn 5 (assuming B/R list) board win.
I see dual lands as hardly important in multiplayer and use the M13 ones. The format is slow enough to fix an early mana problem.
Huh?
I'm guessing your format doesn't play mostly old-school, dual lands then. Can you "get around" it with later printed cards? Perhaps, but the originals still rule and it's really not close.
I also don't understand the idea that the format is slow enough to make up for it. I would accept it as an axiom that the sooner you can defend yourself &/or get into the sweet spot of your deck, the better.
Beyond the obvious drawback, which makes it patently inferior, you can't do various other things, like search for a Plains/Swamp using, say, Marsh Flats as you can with Scrubland. This makes for color-fixing very, very easy in a multi-color deck. As a matter of fact, it's VERY easy to run a 3-color deck using the original dual lands in conjunction with Fetch Lands, something that you simply cannot do with lands like, Isolated Chapel.
And there are other advantages as well, like counting the number of Forests, Islands or Swamps in play and such.
The list goes on and on.
Yes, there are a few drawbacks to that (say, cards that destroy a particular land type, like Flashfires), but the advantages far, FAR exceed the drawbacks.
interesting to see dual lands and fetch lands top those lists. I see dual lands as hardly important in multiplayer and use the M13 ones. The format is slow enough to fix an early mana problem.
I also don't understand the idea that the format is slow enough to make up for it. I would accept it as an axiom that the sooner you can defend yourself &/or get into the sweet spot of your deck, the better.
I fancy that the truth is that Pigglebee's meta is slow enough to fix an early mana problem.
And that's an important distinction - it's not the MP format as a whole. I can tell you I spent a game colour-screwed last night, and I was dead before I could fix my early mana problem.
But good luck to Pigglebee for having a meta that is slow enough for that - now go and exploit it, right?
The rules, as per usual:
An additional rule for this one... feel free to give me an entire cycle of lands in one slot (e.g. "20 - A/B/U/R Duals"). Alternately, feel free to break cycles up. I'll figure it out.
To help us on our way with land...
Bazaar of Baghdad, TSP Storage Lands, Tolaria West, Artifact Lands, Leechridden Swamp, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Reliquary Tower, Onslaught Cycling Lands.
Alchemist's Refuge, Cavern of Souls, Desolate Lighthouse, Grove of the Guardian, Guildgates, Maze's End, Rogue's Passage, Seraph Sanctuary, Slayers' Stronghold, Thespian's Stage, Transguild Promenade.
As always, please have a go at this - the more people join in, the better the discussion is, the more accurate the rankings are, the better our guides are, and the better your deckbuilding becomes. Thanks in advance!
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WE'RE DONE!
2 Tropical Island - 15.9
3 Volcanic Island - 15.7
4 Remaining A/B/U/R Duals - 15.4
5 Gaea's Cradle - 15.4
6 Tolarian Academy - 14.6
7 Volrath's Stronghold - 13.9
8 Polluted Delta - 13.0
9 Flooded Strand - 12.9
10 Misty Rainforest - 12.7
11 Verdant Catacombs - 12.6
12 Bloodstained Mire - 11.4
13 Library of Alexandria - 11.3
14 Remaining Onslaught / Zendikar Fetches - 11.3
15 Mishra's Workshop - 10.7
16 Cloudpost - 10.1
17 Cabal Coffers - 9.9
18 Ravnica Shocklands - 7.9
19 Vesuva - 7.6
20 Academy Ruins - 6.9
TURF (Tendencies, Useless Ramblings and Facts)
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
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Right honorable mention: The Urzatron...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Second List:
Edit: I'll go with this order.
I'm confused by this. Functionally, these are all the same card and should be in the second list. Any rationale behind putting Gaea's Cradle in the first list? The same could be argued for Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins as well.
I almost want to segment this category into mana producing and non-mana producing lands because evaluating both in the same pool seems unfair. My vote combines cards that are functionally the same, but target a different permanent type.
A/B/U/R Duals
Onslaught / Zendikar Fetches
Gaea's Cradle / Tolarian Academy / Serra's Sanctum / Cloudpost
Volrath's Stronghold / Academy Ruins
Ravnica Shocklands
Maze of Ith
Vesuva
Cabal Coffers / Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Mishra's Workshop
Bazaar of Bagdad
Tolarian Academy
A/B/U Duals
Fetchlands
Cloudpost
Gaea's Cradle
Volrath's Stronghold
Academy Ruins
Cabal Coffers
Zendikar manlands
City of Brass
Shocklands
Ancient Tomb
Strip Mine
Maze of Ith
Alchemist's Refuge
Slayer's Stronghold
Karakas
My 450ish 1vs1 cube
Cloudpost might be on the wrong list, but every deck (that I've seen) that runs it also builds around it, which is not necessary for the Cradle.
I'm still not following your logic 100% here. Creatures may be a more common strategy for Green, but the deck still needs to be built around; if you play all ramp and a few beefy creature, it doesn't work. You need a token strategy and q land to truly exploit the Cradle.
Also, Blue decks use artifacts just as frequently as Green decks use creatures, if not more so. The White using enchantments is valid, but most BW, UW and WG use enchantments as a base for the strategy.
I like your 40% approach, I just think all three should be on the same line just like dual lands. All three allow the same advantage relevant to the mana color they produce.
More so than 99%? It's a pretty limited inventory of Green decks w/o any creatures or creature generators...
You are certainly welcome to disagree with my rankings, though! For example, I need to promote something over Bojuka Bog - while it's a reasonably useful card, it's hardly amazing in MP.
Library of Alexandria - I've never actually seen this played outside of cube, but whenever it is in the opening 7, there's a good chance that player is winning the game.
Gaea's Cradle - Much less groanworthy than the academy, because wraths are a lot more common than shatterstorms. Still, a good cradle activation can mean the game.
Volrath's Stronghold - The strongest "Fair" non-basic in my opinion. Drawing your best dead creature every turn is an incredible deal.
Cabal Coffers - MBC explodes when this hits
ABU Duels
Maze of Ith - Having a free option for combat is HUGE game.
Vault of the Archangel - I love this card because of the RTFC blowouts.
Cloudpost + Glimmerpost + Vesuva - Probably the cheapest $$$ wise mana engine - the number of decks that can just get away with this is gross.
Krosan Verge + Fetches
Kessig Wolf Run - Nasty card with Big Mana or in those Lurking Predators decks
Emeria, The Sky Ruin - I like this card on cockatrice, because you can just run all duels and get this ability "for free." I have Cleric Kaalia of the Vast deck with Angel of Glory's Rise that is Very 3 colors and still able to run this gem.
Yavimaya Hollow - Great because it so easily slips under the radar. Most wraths aren't actual Wrath of God, so this ability is great to just leave up.
Serra's Sanctum - Never really seen an enchantress deck I didn't despise, but this does work there.
Glacial Chasm - Fantastic card in MBC or Big Red
Mishra's Workshop - I've actually never seen this played, likely because it is considered too powerful for casual.
High Market + Phyrexian Tower - I love these free effects that keep your fatties in the GY instead of exile or on your opponent's board.
We're all done! Results in the OP! Thanks everyone!
Because I didn't get a chance to throw them up here earlier. Surprisingly close to a few others, with a couple of outliers.
On the unholy troika of Academy / Cradle / Sanctum...
Correct, they aren't, though I can definitely see why people would want to rank them all on one line, and support those who would want to do so.
For newer players who haven't seen any of these, imagine them as playing like Nykthos does (in terms of using devotion) - their quality is entirely dependent on how quickly you reach a healthy level of devotion. In the race between artifacts, creatures and enchantments, there are so many good 0cc artifacts that Academy wins every time. But Cradle is a pretty good second. Given the distinct lack of game-breaking 0-1CC enchantments, Sanctum is a poor third. I am yet to break it open hard after 15 years of trying.
I'll add the final touches to the results when I am able, and post a summary thread shortly. Recommended 2013 Multiplayer Cube list coming when I get a chance to throw it all together.
Thanks again for your votes!
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
Here we see the difference between cube and multiplayer. While almost every mana producing lands are outclassed by dual/fetch/basic, it isn't the case in singleton format where there's room for the subpars lands.
Ha! Good catch!
Top card is USea, of course. Had two UB lands on the brain as I typed it out.
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
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I'm going to respond as this is not a troll. All dual color combos have equal play value. Deck construction choices by the individual may skew the relative play value based on that player's personal choices, but it does not alter the viability of said card in a deck using those colors.
Of course, voting is subjective by nature, but I submit that next year (and future years) should not allow votes for single cards that are identically the same but have different color combos. All dual lands must be voted as a group, all fetch lands must be voted as a group, and all shard lands must be voted as a group. The rest are not identical copies, but function copies and should remain at the choice of the voter to group or keep single.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Yeah, good call, that one. I think we can probably get onboard with that from next year. Much as I find it kind of cute to see them all split up like that, and amuses me in that we find some Revised duals ranked lower than non-Revised duals simply because they got split up, it also frustrates me in that the average n00b coming along in six months time and reading the results is only going to skim the Top 20 and see nothing but cards they can't afford (and if we keep it to cycles, this gets avoided).
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
(Or the top forty if that's more easy.)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Sure (sorry, it took me a while to compile this over Xmas/New Year)!
Roughly speaking...
Full results in the link in my sig if you want the whole shebang!
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
I definitely agree with this list a lot more than the initial results.
Thanks, I,ll analyze this at my leasure.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I think this systemic of a larger difference; some people equate the format named Casual with the play style casual.
I can tell you that in the metas I play, they are not equal and Casual format is highly competitive. In this case, dual lands should be at the top because you are going for a turn 5 (assuming B/R list) board win.
Huh?
I'm guessing your format doesn't play mostly old-school, dual lands then. Can you "get around" it with later printed cards? Perhaps, but the originals still rule and it's really not close.
I also don't understand the idea that the format is slow enough to make up for it. I would accept it as an axiom that the sooner you can defend yourself &/or get into the sweet spot of your deck, the better.
No, that's a very significant difference.
Beyond the obvious drawback, which makes it patently inferior, you can't do various other things, like search for a Plains/Swamp using, say, Marsh Flats as you can with Scrubland. This makes for color-fixing very, very easy in a multi-color deck. As a matter of fact, it's VERY easy to run a 3-color deck using the original dual lands in conjunction with Fetch Lands, something that you simply cannot do with lands like, Isolated Chapel.
And there are other advantages as well, like counting the number of Forests, Islands or Swamps in play and such.
The list goes on and on.
Yes, there are a few drawbacks to that (say, cards that destroy a particular land type, like Flashfires), but the advantages far, FAR exceed the drawbacks.
.
Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
I fancy that the truth is that Pigglebee's meta is slow enough to fix an early mana problem.
And that's an important distinction - it's not the MP format as a whole. I can tell you I spent a game colour-screwed last night, and I was dead before I could fix my early mana problem.
But good luck to Pigglebee for having a meta that is slow enough for that - now go and exploit it, right?
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor