"Pauper is, often, about playing analogues of great cards." -Haloscope
"The difference between Pauper Magic and regular Magic is the difference between learning karate and buying a gun." -redleg
PAUPER MAGIC is our focus. We enjoy playing casual and competitive Magic using only commons. Whether you're unable to afford playing Standard or Extended, you seek a change of pace, or you're interested in challenging yourself, Pauper Magic is a great choice and worth your attention.
Our clan has "open friendship" with anyone who posts relevant, intelligent, and considerate messages in our threads. We also have "open membership" in that we welcome anyone interested in Pauper Magic into our clan. Even if you're not a member, we strongly encourage you to discuss Pauper Magic with us here.
CLAN MEMBERS R (0-0) Polyjak, Founder R (0-0) akmage, MTGO Captain U (2-0) Eegag, Team Err Captain R (0-1) Haloscope, Ledgewalkers Captain R (1-1) Grozathia U (1-1) Ruinedlaw R (0-1) The Action Man B (0-0) BweeBwee B (0-0) Alfred B (0-0) Buttons the Merciless
PROBATIONARY MEMBERS U (0-0) ConFlux U (0-0) Macdeemac U (0-0) Redleg U (0-0) Retropa U (0-0) Shloukas R (0-0) MasterBeeble R (0-0) Interpol
FORMER MEMBERS Disrupt_Your_Hymn Eclipsed FoilPhob Agentanaranjado Veserius Tarbosh917 echoareone Treesrule14 Jlo
Deck weaknesses: counter magic, quake effects, discard. Deck strengths: it can really turn around a game, and it can drop 30+ tokens on turn four or five or so.
The idea of using red mana generating spells to ramp up mana and the storm count is not new. This deck uses a few extra features to help the plan:
1) Suspend. Hang a Rift Bolt the turn before you plan to go off. This gives you 1+ storm count on that turn for 0 mana investment on that turn.
2) Coal Stoker. He's actually a mana producing spell. He costs you R to cast, but that's about as cheap as you get.
3) Surging Flame. For two mana, you may get to cast an extra 1 or 2 spells for free. This deck is, in part, about chance. When you play those spells for free, they still count towards the storm count.
4) Cackling Flames/Dogpile. Both finishers. I should probably make it 3x Cackling Flames, its just that if I get a single attack in - I can win before blockers are declared.
A card I've debated about: Surge of Zeal. This card is cheap - so its good before I cast Empty the Warrens. However, its only effective after I cast EtW, so it wouldn't contribute towards the Storm count. Ultimately, I just need to test both versions.
Halo: I've heard of people wanting to use Surge with Empty the Warrens. Not bad!
Here's a different take on the WU deck I was working on in the last thread. I witnessed the power of rebels last night at SPDC 1.08 and I'm certain that white aggro or aggro-control decks will want to consider them in the main.
I have to go serve pizzas to people now but when I return I'll endeavor to post my other two Standard decklists, BR Jakdos and UR Control.
The deck was so last-minute that it even lacked a sideboard (Ronom Unicorn would have been nice). Once I saw Jack was going to play last night, I rushed to build a deck so I could join him. I wanted to use Time Spiral, but the only cards I had from the set were a few blue creatures (Fathom Seer, Drakeling, Looter) and white rebels. I thought about going U/W, but I figured I'd just stick the card advantage engine in an existing deck.
Icatian Crier was just added on a whim, but I'm glad I did. It proved to me that Crier is an average advantage engine for the mid-to-late game against the mirror or another control deck, but that it is inferior to the rebel engine. I only used two Terramorphic Expanses because that was all I had. With 25 lands, it's insane that I actually got mana screwed a couple of times last night.
The rebel engine is solid--both decks using it made the finals last night, and it gave me the advantage over both mirror matches. However, I don't think it's dominating. Once people begin to realize how important it is to stop an active Amrou Scout, the meta will balance itself out. Here are the changes I would make to the deck:
- 1 Icatian Crier, -1 Plains, -1 Swamp
+1 Amrou Seekers, +2 Terramorphic Expanse
Those are the definite changes. The sideboard needs Thoughtpicker Witch and Ronom Unicorn, among other things. I also think I have room to add two more cards maindeck if I find something worthy (-1 Grim Harvest, -1 Children of Korlis).
Halo: I've been seeing quite a bit of Subterranean Shambler around. Look out for him! I think the Storm deck may need a 2nd color to really shine. I wonder what you could do about that...
Eegag: It's a testament to your skill, as well as the raw power of Orzhov, that you piloted a last second pile (though you do always seem to have pretty good intuitions) to a 2nd place finish at SPDC 1.08.
I think you're right about the rebels, though I must make this point: I was playing a deck thick with removal spells, and the fact that a rebel searcher can fetch another rebel searcher is quite potent. Also, I got caught on the instant-speed blocker-fetching capabilities of the rebels, and Eegag used that trick on his opponent as well. They're darn good. They give RW that little extra umph from a deck that it so often lacks.
That's why I'm excited to try the new and improved UW that I've listed above.
But in the meantime, here's the BR deck I used last night. It's very similar to the one I used to take 1st place at SPDC 1.07, but the sideboard has changed. And I think the sideboard needs to change yet again.
I love the rebel plan. They cause SO much card advantage - especially when they can fetch the Looter. I like the deck you proposed. I'm definitely going to work on a UW Rebels decklist. Look for it soon...
In the meantime, yes, Polyjak, another color would compliment Red Storm Rising really well. Thus, I bring you...
All the same strengths and weaknesses of Red Storm Rising v6, but with a slightly decreased consistency and incredibly increased card draw/quality. Ultimately, the mountains are just not needed. All you need is just one red mana to ramp up into the next few mana spells... and away you go.
here is a Green blue Deck I am working on, I think it may need to be a bit more focused, but the general idea is to stall early and use simic guys to bring out huge suspended monsters or Zeppelid.
Since you guys like Casual, and that's all I ever play, I would like to take a try with this clan and become a friend. And maybe I can learn a bit more about the latent power of the commens! [sic]
Sounds good, friend. Though we are actually focusing on competitive right now, we certainly do enjoy casual gaming as well. We tend to focus on commons-only Magic, as you assessed.
I just tested Red Storm Rising v6 against a BWu Orzhov Rebel monstrosity piloted by Eegag. Hopefully he will post it. My notes on the deck.
1) Red Storm Rising v6. The weaknesses/strengths of the deck need to be adjusted. Weaknesses: Countermagic, quakes, discard. It should also include aggro decks.
Aggro: Eegag was consistently able to do 10-12 damage to me before I could get ready to combo out. This meant that I had to do 14-16 points of damage in that last turn in order to win. I absorb a LOT of damage before I usually go off. I can't always count on a great draw to give me the win.
Countermagic: To clarify a question put to me by Eegag, the deck is NOT vulnerable to coutner magic because I'm worried about a counter hitting my Empty the Warrens. The counter can only stop a single copy - the rest are put on the stack and must be countered individually. I'm more concerned about a counter hitting one of my mana spells and being left with mana in the pool and no way to utilize it.
Discard: This is just brutal - but more so in this deck than others. It hurts this deck more because I MUST hold my spells in my hand until I'm ready to combo out.
2) Red Storm Rising v7. -2 Dogpile, -2 Coal Stoker, +4 Surge of Zeal. The Surges are a great way to get damage in sooner. They also help deal with many of the deck's weaknesses. The major quake effects are Martyr of Ashes, Rain of Embers, and Subterranean Shambler and all of them are essentially sorceries - except the Martyr. Thus, this deck can stop Martyr by just killing it with a Skred, Rift Bolt, Surging Flame - and THEN comboing out. The Surge of Zeal plan was awsome. It's basically R for 10+ damage.
I won the first game (stormed out 8 Gobbies and hasted them with Surge of Zeal). It was awsome. However, it was a less than noble victory - Eegag was mana flooded.
3) Red Storm Rising v8. Eegag won games two and three quite handily. Second game I was one turn short of winning - I dropped 10 Gobbies, hasted them, swung, and died. Third game I couldn't draw a Warrens and died with a hand full of mana spells and nothing to spend it on.
The deck in its mono-R state is a slave to its own whims and consistency. Not drawing an Empty the Warrens is a huge problem. The answer is either adding U for consistency or adding more deck manipulation in red. In the interests of seeing what a mono-R Warrens deck look likes, I'm going to continue following the red path. You proud, Jak?
After the last game, I modded it again; -2 Cackling Flames, -2 Coal Stokers, +4 Orcish Cannonade. I figure I need the extra draw the Cannonades provide could help offset the deck consistency problems. There's actually a lot of draw/deck manipulation in the deck. 4x Terramorphic Expanses are deck thinning, 4x Surging Flame are secret deck thinning tech, 4x Chromatic Star are good for just moving the deck along its way (and are cheap enough to throw away for an extra Storm copy). The danger of Orchish Cannonade is that it will speed up my own clock, making aggro that much more dangerous. However, three life and three mana is a steep price to pay for a card and 2 damage.
4) Other possibilites. I think the deck could benefit from two other possible spells: Grapeshot and/or Pyromatics. The Grapeshot would help clear the board - or do about 5-6 damage if I don't draw a Warrens. Then again, Grapeshot might be a good replacement for the Surging Flames. The Pyromatics would be a great mana dump for when I don't draw a Warrens and have a hand full of mana spells.
Halo, I'm always impressed by your deck building and tweaking enthusiasm. You've provided greatly to the literature of Pauper decks. OUTSTANDING. A+
I have yet to see the deck in action but I'd like to play against it. I need to get my WU Rebels and BR Jakdos updated on MWS. I'm going to be in Chicago this weekend so I don't know if I'll be on much (though I will bring my laptop) but when I return, it's go-time.
I almost challenged Ruinedlaw to a CtF match last night, but I'm afraid he has a better deck than I do. I'm still planning on doing that, though. We've set a nutty bad precedent for the CtF game.
May I submit to you all another idea I had. We all take a common deck, one we select or something like a Pauperized precon... and we do testing of it, and make changes to it. Sort of like JMS' (the old guy) Building on a Budget approach. Take the deck, play five games (or matches, if you're crazy) with it, and THEN make changes. Each of us would be doing this process, and each of us would concoct our own changes for the deck. At the end of the week, we post our suggested changes, and then make them, and do it again. So we're all shopping the same deck, but we've got 3 people doing it. By the end of 2 or 3 weeks, there will be some pretty solid playtesting done with the deck and lots of ideas about it.
May I submit to you all another idea I had. We all take a common deck, one we select or something like a Pauperized precon... and we do testing of it, and make changes to it. Sort of like JMS' (the old guy) Building on a Budget approach. Take the deck, play five games (or matches, if you're crazy) with it, and THEN make changes. Each of us would be doing this process, and each of us would concoct our own changes for the deck. At the end of the week, we post our suggested changes, and then make them, and do it again. So we're all shopping the same deck, but we've got 3 people doing it. By the end of 2 or 3 weeks, there will be some pretty solid playtesting done with the deck and lots of ideas about it.
What do you think?
I would really enjoy doing something like this, Jack. Also, it wouldn't interfere with our other clan interests, PDC and CtF, as those games could count toward the five matches per week. My suggestion for this experiment would likely be Snow Green, as I feel it needs a major overhaul to be competitive in the new Standard.
I have yet to see the deck in action but I'd like to play against it.
As with most combo decks, its hit or miss. However, I can get some really spectacular wins even against those strategies to which my deck is susceptable. I would welcome the chance to playtest it.
I need to get my WU Rebels and BR Jakdos updated on MWS.
So, I kept thinking Looter il-Kor was a Rebel, not a Rogue. I couldn't understand why no one was putting him in their WU Rebel decks. Well, duh, he's not a rebel. I've seen WU rebels and BW rebels. Overall, I like the BW rebel strategy - the card advantage inherent in the Rebel plan fits in nicely with Shrieking Grotesques, Blind Hunters, and Pillories.
I almost challenged Ruinedlaw to a CtF match last night, but I'm afraid he has a better deck than I do. I'm still planning on doing that, though. We've set a nutty bad precedent for the CtF game.
Dude, I'm disappointed. I don't care if you're playing a pile of jank, even if you lose horribly it gives one of your other teammates (*cough*) a chance to make a run for the flag.
May I submit to you all another idea I had. We all take a common deck, one we select or something like a Pauperized precon... and we do testing of it, and make changes to it. [snip] Take the deck, play five games (or matches, if you're crazy) with it, and THEN make changes. [snip]What do you think?
I like it. Except, I don't think we should all play with the same precon. I think we'd all make certain obvious first choices (+4 Last Gasp, +4 Blind Hunter). I just don't see that we're going to see much innovation that way. I'd like to see something where we are all given what is essentially an entirely random pile of crap - much like Pauper sealed. Then, we're able to make 5 immediate card changes to it.
I would really enjoy doing something like this, Jack. Also, it wouldn't interfere with our other clan interests, PDC and CtF, as those games could count toward the five matches per week. My suggestion for this experiment would likely be Snow Green, as I feel it needs a major overhaul to be competitive in the new Standard.
Agreed, no matter which way we do it, hopefully it will encourage testing.
Almost done with my seminar paper ... but, now is time for a break :p.
Here is an update of Evu's UGAC that I've been pondering. The loss of Ninja o' the Deep Hours is a hard hit for any deck to take, but I am hoping that the new set is able to make up for it. So, without further ado, here is eegag's UGAC Update:
The first change I would consider is Snapback in for the Mana Leaks, if 7 early game counters proves to be too many to effectively utilize. I need to test it first, however!
Changes from v1 to v7:
1) An entirely different creature base. Taking out the Silhana Ledgewalker and Shambling Shell was an agonizing decision. I decided to remove them in order to push the deck more towards a controling style with sacrifice outlets.
2) I tinkered with the manabase and kicked out the Search for Tomorrow's (which I really really like, BTW).
3) I dropped the casting costs in the deck dramatically. Scatter the Seeds is essentially 2-3 mana and frequently 0. With the exception of 3x Gutless Ghouls (and the aforementioned Scatters) are 2cc or less! Having a ridiculously low mana curve lets me get my Sap plan going early and keep it strong.
Notes and changes from v6 to v7:
1) I took out the Herd Gnarr and Fists of Ironwood for reasons stated in v6 beta. I decided on Ravenous Rats and a full compliment of Scatter the Seeds.
2) Gutless Ghoul and Thoughtpicker Witch are incredible. They work great with anyone who's ready to die and especially with tokens. Both work fantastically against Orzhov since I can sac a dude out from under a Fetters or Pillory. They also both help this deck exert a LOT of control over the game. Once I've got enough dudes, I'm immortal and I can control what my opponent will draw forever.
3) Ravenous Rats were included for disruption/discard. Once they've dropped to the table, they're just sac bait. Frankly, given the huge number of creatures in the deck, I may opt for Mindstab after all.
4) Scatter the Seeds with Deathspore Thallid is basically a Serrated Arrows or Shambling Swarm. This is potentially a huge advantage for several reasons. Its great becuase you can block, stack damage, then sac for -1/-1 counters. The reason this is so powerful is that a single -1/-1 counter can make a huge difference in a single creature battle. Being able to spread those counters around makes all the difference in the world. The best part about playing with Scatter is that you get to sling Saps and -1/-1 counters with no mana open.
5) Pit Keeper is a huge part of the deck. When playing against regular (w/ rares and uncommons) T2 decks this came in very handy. They would attempt to clear the board with a Pyroclasm and I would finish off their remaining creatures by throwing Saps with a Deathspore Thallid or with a Last Gasp. Casting PK for PK for Deathspore Thallid would allow me to recover from a blank board position.
6) My all time favorite trick with this deck is to attack into an opponent with Aquastrand Spider, stack the damage, then pop out a few tokens and beef them up with the graft counters.
Most satisfingly, I've played this deck via MWS against guys running a TON of duals, rares, and other pricy cards with great effect. I love telling my opponent, as they're about to die, that my deck is all commons.
I'm having a good time here in Chicago. Fell in love with a beautiful Eastern European woman named Adriana at the top of the Hancock Tower. Ate Korean food for dinner. Got one whole day of adventure left before I head home!
I wanted to speak more about the "Deck Shop." I know Halo suggested starting with a pile of jank but that's not really the angle I was thinking. My aim was to start with an already "functional" deck and apply our individual reasoning and experience on it, after 5 games/matches apiece, and tweak the deck. We'll have three (or more) individual takes on what needs to be changed with the deck. When we post that, our matchup reports, and our card change rationale, we'll end up with some pretty substantial literature all on one deck. Our individual experiences will hopefully differ enough to give a wide panorama of the deck's performance in the metagame.
I submit that we adhere to JMS' template for Building on a Budget:
1. Take a deck.
2. Identify its major and minor themes.
3. Play 5 games with it as is to get a feel for how it plays.
4. Write a brief report of each game, citing specific cards and reasons the deck shone or failed.
5. Make tweaks not to exceed 5 cards out/in. Minor tweaks encourage real thought as opposed to "this didn't work; I'm completely revamping."
6. Play 5 more games with the new version.
7. Write game reports for those games.
8. Make more tweaks, not to exceed 5 cards out/in.
Rinse; repeat.
We can do this for 2 or 3 weeks for each deck.
Halo, I'm really stoked to see the Rock again. I wonder how it would fare against Rebels, Control, and SnowRos. If it could beat those 3, it has some of the top contenders licked.
Eegag, the UGAC Update looks pretty good. (It's actually GU, not UG... why does everyone get that wrong?) I have found that I'm very bad at ascertaining how to integrate blue into a deck's strategy if that involves adding ANY counters. U/x aggro-control may be the hardest deck archetype for me to play. Anyway, I like the build, but I have a hard time appreciating Snap Back. I'm glad it's not there.
I suggest the following deck for our debut edition of Building on a Pauper's Budget. It's an update of the Snow Green deck that I won Friday Standard PDC with last month. I just threw some new cards in to replace what was lost. The benefit of using this deck is that it has a lot of potential - there are many possible avenues of development (more red, bigger creatures, faster creatures, more utility, etc.).
I'm having a good time here in Chicago. Fell in love with a beautiful Eastern European woman named Adriana at the top of the Hancock Tower. Ate Korean food for dinner. Got one whole day of adventure left before I head home!
Way to go Jak. glad you are having a great time in chi town.
I like the deck clinic idea, I just think it would help if you place a detailed strategy guide for the deck whenever posting it, that way people do not try and take it too far away from the original idea.
I suggest the following deck for our debut edition of Building on a Pauper's Budget. It's an update of the Snow Green deck that I won Friday Standard PDC with last month. I just threw some new cards in to replace what was lost. The benefit of using this deck is that it has a lot of potential - there are many possible avenues of development (more red, bigger creatures, faster creatures, more utility, etc.).
Let's do it! I guess we have to make the stipulation then that changes to the mana-base in the form of basic lands don't count toward the 5 card restriction.
I wanted to speak more about the "Deck Shop." I know Halo suggested starting with a pile of jank but that's not really the angle I was thinking. My aim was to start with an already "functional" deck and apply our individual reasoning and experience on it...[snip]
Halo, I'm really stoked to see the Rock again. I wonder how it would fare against Rebels, Control, and SnowRos. If it could beat those 3, it has some of the top contenders licked.
I've beaten WB Rebels and SnowRos. I've not tried it against UB Control, that I recall. I think that would be a tough one since it runs many of the same control elements.
I just played Eegag with Rock Harvest v7 versus Snow Green. Saprolings rule. Direct quote from my opponent, "it abuses Grim Harvest better than any deck I've seen." I think this may be the best time for Standard pauper rock, ever. Deathspore Thallid is what makes the deck tick.
Eegag, the UGAC Update looks pretty good. (It's actually GU, not UG... why does everyone get that wrong?) I have found that I'm very bad at ascertaining how to integrate blue into a deck's strategy if that involves adding ANY counters. U/x aggro-control may be the hardest deck archetype for me to play. Anyway, I like the build, but I have a hard time appreciating Snap Back. I'm glad it's not there.
Not everyone has to designate it like that (according the order on the color wheel). My reasoning has to deal with the deck and the primary colors. I would designate a primarily blue deck with smaller green elements UG or Ug. I would designate a 50/50 blue-green deck either way.
Okay, I put the Snow Green Update (:symrg: Stompy) into MWS and MTGO (though I need Ashcoat Bear to finish it on MTGO). Here's the MWS decklist for those too lazy to input it themselves. Remember, use it exactly. Play 5 games. Then post game reports, and take 5 cards out, and put 5 cards in, then do it all over again. You can post and change every 5 games.
Apparently you can't attach MWS decklists, so I exported it as a .txt file. Hopefully you can just import the deck from this .txt file. Try it!
Can somebody write up the deck's major and minor themes / win strategy? That's an important part of the process.
Can somebody write up the deck's major and minor themes / win strategy? That's an important part of the process.
Snow Green really wants to establish a quick board position with solid x/3 creatures (ideally, 3/3 creatures) and keep pounding until the opponent reaches zero. The game plan does not include a lot of finesse - the most interactive card from the original deck, Shinen of Life's Roar, is no longer available in Standard.
It's important not to overcommit, even in Pauper. Martyr of Ashes or, as I was shown today, Scatter the Seeds + Deathspore Thallid can wreck your entire board in an instant.
Here are several subthemes that vary from the main midrange x/3 plan:
1. Snow. Obviously, the snow commons play a role in Snow Green - but only Boreal Centaur and Skred. I am not sure if it's possible to successfully expand on this theme with Pauper's limited cardpool, but the theme exists never-the-less.
2. Graft. Aquastrand Spider is the only Graft-enabler in the deck at the moment, but I could see adding Simic Initiate in order to guarantee bigger mid-game creatures (3/4s and 4/4s). Other possibilities exist as well.
3. Burn. Yeah, it's not a very big theme, but if you branch out into a more balanced Gruul deck, burn might compliment the x/3 plan nicely.
4. Dredge. Another very minor theme, but Greater Mossdog and Reclaim could be added to maximize its effectiveness.
I'm quite excited by this T2 pauper rock, mainly because I haven't seen anything like it being played thus far. If I play on Thursday I think it'll be this deck.
"Pauper is, often, about playing analogues of great cards." -Haloscope
"The difference between Pauper Magic and regular Magic is the difference between learning karate and buying a gun." -redleg
PAUPER MAGIC is our focus. We enjoy playing casual and competitive Magic using only commons. Whether you're unable to afford playing Standard or Extended, you seek a change of pace, or you're interested in challenging yourself, Pauper Magic is a great choice and worth your attention.
Our clan has "open friendship" with anyone who posts relevant, intelligent, and considerate messages in our threads. We also have "open membership" in that we welcome anyone interested in Pauper Magic into our clan. Even if you're not a member, we strongly encourage you to discuss Pauper Magic with us here.
CLAN MEMBERS
R (0-0) Polyjak, Founder
R (0-0) akmage, MTGO Captain
U (2-0) Eegag, Team Err Captain
R (0-1) Haloscope, Ledgewalkers Captain
R (1-1) Grozathia
U (1-1) Ruinedlaw
R (0-1) The Action Man
B (0-0) BweeBwee
B (0-0) Alfred
B (0-0) Buttons the Merciless
PROBATIONARY MEMBERS
U (0-0) ConFlux
U (0-0) Macdeemac
U (0-0) Redleg
U (0-0) Retropa
U (0-0) Shloukas
R (0-0) MasterBeeble
R (0-0) Interpol
FORMER MEMBERS
Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Eclipsed
FoilPhob
Agentanaranjado
Veserius
Tarbosh917
echoareone
Treesrule14
Jlo
CAPTURE THE FLAG
R = The Ledgewalkers (1-3)
U = Team Err (3-1)
Official PoP CtF Page
Halo's 1st CtF Post
PREVIOUS THREADS
#0: Still Recruiting! Join Now!
#1: Eight Ways to Pump an Elf
#2: Disciples of the Common Way
#3: So Cheap You'll Weep
#4: Your 20 Life, My 20 Cents
#5: Real Wizards Don't Need Silver and Gold
Clan birthday: December 7, 2005
PAUPER LIBRARY
Poor IntoTheAether (Jay Moldenhauer-Salazar)
An E-Mail from TheOrangeMitten regarding PDC on MTGO
Players Wanted for Pauper Deck Challenge 2006!
Euro PDC 2.5
Mini-PDC Round 2
PDC Decklists
PDC Limited: Ravnica League
Guildpact and PDC
Ravnica Block Pauper - Visual Spoiler (Polyjak)
Ravnica Block Pauper - Text Spoiler (Polyjak)
Alfred's Decklists Pt. I (Alfred)
Card Drawing (Polyjak)
Board-Sweepers (Eegag)
Artifact Mana Fixing/Acceleration (Grozathia)
Commons with Tutoring Effects (Veserius)
Land Destruction (Grozathia)
Entry for Clan Contest #2, 2006
16x Snow-Covered Mountain
4x Terramorphic Expanse
//Dudes
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Coal Stoker
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Surging Flame
4x Skred
4x Rift Bolt
4x Empty the Warrens
4x Chromatic Star
2x Cackling Flames
2x Dogpile
Deck weaknesses: counter magic, quake effects, discard.
Deck strengths: it can really turn around a game, and it can drop 30+ tokens on turn four or five or so.
The idea of using red mana generating spells to ramp up mana and the storm count is not new. This deck uses a few extra features to help the plan:
1) Suspend. Hang a Rift Bolt the turn before you plan to go off. This gives you 1+ storm count on that turn for 0 mana investment on that turn.
2) Coal Stoker. He's actually a mana producing spell. He costs you R to cast, but that's about as cheap as you get.
3) Surging Flame. For two mana, you may get to cast an extra 1 or 2 spells for free. This deck is, in part, about chance. When you play those spells for free, they still count towards the storm count.
4) Cackling Flames/Dogpile. Both finishers. I should probably make it 3x Cackling Flames, its just that if I get a single attack in - I can win before blockers are declared.
A card I've debated about: Surge of Zeal. This card is cheap - so its good before I cast Empty the Warrens. However, its only effective after I cast EtW, so it wouldn't contribute towards the Storm count. Ultimately, I just need to test both versions.
-H
PoP Website
Magic Workstation
H/W list
OLD H/W list
GB Pauper T2 Rock Harvest v9b1
BR Pauper T2 Toolbox v2d5
Watcher of SPDC 1.07
Here's a different take on the WU deck I was working on in the last thread. I witnessed the power of rebels last night at SPDC 1.08 and I'm certain that white aggro or aggro-control decks will want to consider them in the main.
I have to go serve pizzas to people now but when I return I'll endeavor to post my other two Standard decklists, BR Jakdos and UR Control.
4 Terramorphic Expanse
9 Snow-Covered Island
9 Snow-Covered Plains
//22 creatures//
4 Amrou Scout
3 Amrou Seekers
2 Children of Korlis
4 Looter il-Kor
4 Azorius First-Wing
3 Errant Ephemeron
2 Crookclaw Transmuter
4 Gelid Shackles
4 Remove Soul
4 Rune Snag
4 Think Twice
4 Repeal
4 Momentary Blink
3 Minister of Impediments
2 Crookclaw Transmuter
2 Children of Korlis
Opinions, as always, are welcome.
10 Swamp
11 Plains
2 Orzhov Basilica
2 Terramorphic Expanse
// Creatures
4 Blind Hunter
4 Skrieking Grotesque
3 Amrou Seekers
4 Guardian of the Guildpact
2 Children of Korlis
1 Icatian Crier
4 Amrou Scout
3 Grim Harvest
4 Last Gasp
2 Faith's Fetters
4 Pillory of the Sleepless
The deck was so last-minute that it even lacked a sideboard (Ronom Unicorn would have been nice). Once I saw Jack was going to play last night, I rushed to build a deck so I could join him. I wanted to use Time Spiral, but the only cards I had from the set were a few blue creatures (Fathom Seer, Drakeling, Looter) and white rebels. I thought about going U/W, but I figured I'd just stick the card advantage engine in an existing deck.
Icatian Crier was just added on a whim, but I'm glad I did. It proved to me that Crier is an average advantage engine for the mid-to-late game against the mirror or another control deck, but that it is inferior to the rebel engine. I only used two Terramorphic Expanses because that was all I had. With 25 lands, it's insane that I actually got mana screwed a couple of times last night.
The rebel engine is solid--both decks using it made the finals last night, and it gave me the advantage over both mirror matches. However, I don't think it's dominating. Once people begin to realize how important it is to stop an active Amrou Scout, the meta will balance itself out. Here are the changes I would make to the deck:
- 1 Icatian Crier, -1 Plains, -1 Swamp
+1 Amrou Seekers, +2 Terramorphic Expanse
Those are the definite changes. The sideboard needs Thoughtpicker Witch and Ronom Unicorn, among other things. I also think I have room to add two more cards maindeck if I find something worthy (-1 Grim Harvest, -1 Children of Korlis).
Prison Yard (Pauper Future Extended)
Eegag: It's a testament to your skill, as well as the raw power of Orzhov, that you piloted a last second pile (though you do always seem to have pretty good intuitions) to a 2nd place finish at SPDC 1.08.
I think you're right about the rebels, though I must make this point: I was playing a deck thick with removal spells, and the fact that a rebel searcher can fetch another rebel searcher is quite potent. Also, I got caught on the instant-speed blocker-fetching capabilities of the rebels, and Eegag used that trick on his opponent as well. They're darn good. They give RW that little extra umph from a deck that it so often lacks.
That's why I'm excited to try the new and improved UW that I've listed above.
But in the meantime, here's the BR deck I used last night. It's very similar to the one I used to take 1st place at SPDC 1.07, but the sideboard has changed. And I think the sideboard needs to change yet again.
4 Terramorphic Expanse
9 Snow-Covered Mountain
9 Snow-Covered Swamp
//22 creatures//
4 Thoughtpicker Witch
4 Karplusan Wolverine
4 Gobhobbler Rats
4 Pit Keeper
3 Trespasser il-Vec
3 Chilling Shade
4 Skred
4 Rift Bolt
4 Strangling Soot
2 Grim Harvest
2 Cackling Flames
4 Shred Memory
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Wrecking Ball
3 Zombie Musher
Last night I faced a UBR reanimating monstrosity and I should have brought in the Shred Memory but failed to do so. That was my downfall there.
The mana curve on my SB cards is too high. I need to fix that.
I'm considering going more control. Mindstab looks to be an excellent option. I'll get to tinkering.
In the meantime, yes, Polyjak, another color would compliment Red Storm Rising really well. Thus, I bring you...
14x Snow-Covered Island
2x Snow-Covered Mountain
4x Terramorphic Expanse
//Dudes
4x Looter il-Kor
4x Sage of Epityr
4x Fathom Seer
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Empty the Warrens
4x Chromatic Star
4x Skred
4x Surging Flame
2x Cackling Flames
2x Dogpile
All the same strengths and weaknesses of Red Storm Rising v6, but with a slightly decreased consistency and incredibly increased card draw/quality. Ultimately, the mountains are just not needed. All you need is just one red mana to ramp up into the next few mana spells... and away you go.
-H
PoP Website
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4 Aquastrand Spider
4 Assault Zeppelid
4 Coiling Oracle
2 Durkwood baloth
4 Errant Ephemeron
4 Simic Initiate
2 Vigean Hydropon
2 Sporeback Troll
2 Peel From Reality
2 Cancel
4 Repeal
4 Rune Snag
//Lands//
2 Terramorphic Expanse
10 Islands
10 Forests
Looking at it now I think I have too many creatures, I think i may drop the sporeback and add more peels...or Snapback....
http://magic.jwc4.com/blog/index.html
-4 Coiling Oracle
+4 Think Twice
Over the long game, better card advantage.
-4 Simic Initiate
+4 Search for Tomorrow
Mana acceleration, also a 1-drop.
-1 Errant Ephemeron
+1 Durkwood Baloth
-2 Sporeback Troll
-2 Assault Zeppelid
+4 Fists of Ironwood
Take the Hydropons to the next level. Produce chump blockers. Also make the 5/5 even scarier.
-2 Peel from Reality
+2 Cancel
It rules.
-1 Forest
-1 Island
+2 Terramorphic Expanse
(Obviously.)
I'd also recommend
+1 Train of Thought
Just because I always recommend it for Simic.
Good luck w/ the deck! Keep us updated!
http://magic.jwc4.com/blog/index.html
4 Aquastrand Spider
2 Assault Zeppelid
3 Durkwood Baloth
3 Errant Ephemeron
2 Vigean Hydropon
4 Fists of Ironwood
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Think Twice
4 Cancel
4 Repeal
4 Rune Snag
4 Terramorphic Expanse
9 Island
9 Forest
Sounds good, friend. Though we are actually focusing on competitive right now, we certainly do enjoy casual gaming as well. We tend to focus on commons-only Magic, as you assessed.
What are your favorite decks?
1) Red Storm Rising v6. The weaknesses/strengths of the deck need to be adjusted. Weaknesses: Countermagic, quakes, discard. It should also include aggro decks.
Aggro: Eegag was consistently able to do 10-12 damage to me before I could get ready to combo out. This meant that I had to do 14-16 points of damage in that last turn in order to win. I absorb a LOT of damage before I usually go off. I can't always count on a great draw to give me the win.
Countermagic: To clarify a question put to me by Eegag, the deck is NOT vulnerable to coutner magic because I'm worried about a counter hitting my Empty the Warrens. The counter can only stop a single copy - the rest are put on the stack and must be countered individually. I'm more concerned about a counter hitting one of my mana spells and being left with mana in the pool and no way to utilize it.
Discard: This is just brutal - but more so in this deck than others. It hurts this deck more because I MUST hold my spells in my hand until I'm ready to combo out.
2) Red Storm Rising v7. -2 Dogpile, -2 Coal Stoker, +4 Surge of Zeal. The Surges are a great way to get damage in sooner. They also help deal with many of the deck's weaknesses. The major quake effects are Martyr of Ashes, Rain of Embers, and Subterranean Shambler and all of them are essentially sorceries - except the Martyr. Thus, this deck can stop Martyr by just killing it with a Skred, Rift Bolt, Surging Flame - and THEN comboing out. The Surge of Zeal plan was awsome. It's basically R for 10+ damage.
I won the first game (stormed out 8 Gobbies and hasted them with Surge of Zeal). It was awsome. However, it was a less than noble victory - Eegag was mana flooded.
3) Red Storm Rising v8. Eegag won games two and three quite handily. Second game I was one turn short of winning - I dropped 10 Gobbies, hasted them, swung, and died. Third game I couldn't draw a Warrens and died with a hand full of mana spells and nothing to spend it on.
The deck in its mono-R state is a slave to its own whims and consistency. Not drawing an Empty the Warrens is a huge problem. The answer is either adding U for consistency or adding more deck manipulation in red. In the interests of seeing what a mono-R Warrens deck look likes, I'm going to continue following the red path. You proud, Jak?
After the last game, I modded it again; -2 Cackling Flames, -2 Coal Stokers, +4 Orcish Cannonade. I figure I need the extra draw the Cannonades provide could help offset the deck consistency problems. There's actually a lot of draw/deck manipulation in the deck. 4x Terramorphic Expanses are deck thinning, 4x Surging Flame are secret deck thinning tech, 4x Chromatic Star are good for just moving the deck along its way (and are cheap enough to throw away for an extra Storm copy). The danger of Orchish Cannonade is that it will speed up my own clock, making aggro that much more dangerous. However, three life and three mana is a steep price to pay for a card and 2 damage.
4) Other possibilites. I think the deck could benefit from two other possible spells: Grapeshot and/or Pyromatics. The Grapeshot would help clear the board - or do about 5-6 damage if I don't draw a Warrens. Then again, Grapeshot might be a good replacement for the Surging Flames. The Pyromatics would be a great mana dump for when I don't draw a Warrens and have a hand full of mana spells.
16x Snow-Covered Mountain
4x Terramorphic Expanse
//Dudes
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Empty the Warrens
//Spells
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Surging Flame
4x Skred
4x Rift Bolt
4x Orcish Cannonade
4x Chromatic Star
-H
PoP Website
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I have yet to see the deck in action but I'd like to play against it. I need to get my WU Rebels and BR Jakdos updated on MWS. I'm going to be in Chicago this weekend so I don't know if I'll be on much (though I will bring my laptop) but when I return, it's go-time.
I almost challenged Ruinedlaw to a CtF match last night, but I'm afraid he has a better deck than I do. I'm still planning on doing that, though. We've set a nutty bad precedent for the CtF game.
May I submit to you all another idea I had. We all take a common deck, one we select or something like a Pauperized precon... and we do testing of it, and make changes to it. Sort of like JMS' (the old guy) Building on a Budget approach. Take the deck, play five games (or matches, if you're crazy) with it, and THEN make changes. Each of us would be doing this process, and each of us would concoct our own changes for the deck. At the end of the week, we post our suggested changes, and then make them, and do it again. So we're all shopping the same deck, but we've got 3 people doing it. By the end of 2 or 3 weeks, there will be some pretty solid playtesting done with the deck and lots of ideas about it.
What do you think?
I would really enjoy doing something like this, Jack. Also, it wouldn't interfere with our other clan interests, PDC and CtF, as those games could count toward the five matches per week. My suggestion for this experiment would likely be Snow Green, as I feel it needs a major overhaul to be competitive in the new Standard.
Prison Yard (Pauper Future Extended)
As with most combo decks, its hit or miss. However, I can get some really spectacular wins even against those strategies to which my deck is susceptable. I would welcome the chance to playtest it.
So, I kept thinking Looter il-Kor was a Rebel, not a Rogue. I couldn't understand why no one was putting him in their WU Rebel decks. Well, duh, he's not a rebel. I've seen WU rebels and BW rebels. Overall, I like the BW rebel strategy - the card advantage inherent in the Rebel plan fits in nicely with Shrieking Grotesques, Blind Hunters, and Pillories.
Dude, I'm disappointed. I don't care if you're playing a pile of jank, even if you lose horribly it gives one of your other teammates (*cough*) a chance to make a run for the flag.
I like it. Except, I don't think we should all play with the same precon. I think we'd all make certain obvious first choices (+4 Last Gasp, +4 Blind Hunter). I just don't see that we're going to see much innovation that way. I'd like to see something where we are all given what is essentially an entirely random pile of crap - much like Pauper sealed. Then, we're able to make 5 immediate card changes to it.
Agreed, no matter which way we do it, hopefully it will encourage testing.
-H
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Here is an update of Evu's UGAC that I've been pondering. The loss of Ninja o' the Deep Hours is a hard hit for any deck to take, but I am hoping that the new set is able to make up for it. So, without further ado, here is eegag's UGAC Update:
10 Island
8 Forest
4 Terramorphic Expanse
// Creatures
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Aquastrand Spider
4 Looter il-Kor
4 Fathom Seer
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Rune Snag
3 Mana Leak
4 Think Twice
4 Surging Might
3 Remove Soul
1 Mana Leak
4 Frozen Solid
4 Assault Zeppelid
2 Peel from Reality
4 Shielding Plax
The first change I would consider is Snapback in for the Mana Leaks, if 7 early game counters proves to be too many to effectively utilize. I need to test it first, however!
Prison Yard (Pauper Future Extended)
*Eegag's Rock Harvest (v1).
*My guess at Eegag's successfully defending Rock Harvest variant for CTF1.
*Rock Harvest v2.
*Eegag's actual Rock Harvest v2 .
*Rock Harvest v3 is a variation I considered and discarded.
*My Rock Harvest v4.
*Rock Harvest v5.
*Rock Harvest v6.
*Rock Harvest v6 beta.
I think it would be interesting to compare where I have this deck now with what Eegag originally posted.
10 Swamp
10 Forest
4 Terramorphic Expanse
// Creatures
4 Deathspore Thallid
4 Thallid Shell-Dweller
3 Yavimaya Dryad
4 Shambling Shell
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Aquastrand Spider
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Last Gasp
4 Scatter the Seeds
2 Grim Harvest
9x Forest
8x Swamp
4x Terramorphic Expanse
2x Golgari Rot Farm
//Dudes
4x Deathspore Thallid
4x Thallid Shell-Dweller
4x Aquastrand Spider
4x Pit Keeper
3x Gutless Ghoul
3x Thoughtpicker Witch
4x Ravenous Rats
4x Last Gasp
4x Scatter the Seeds
3x Grim Harvest
4x Disembowel
4x Shred Memory
4x Fists of Ironwood
3x Thallid Germinator
Changes from v1 to v7:
1) An entirely different creature base. Taking out the Silhana Ledgewalker and Shambling Shell was an agonizing decision. I decided to remove them in order to push the deck more towards a controling style with sacrifice outlets.
2) I tinkered with the manabase and kicked out the Search for Tomorrow's (which I really really like, BTW).
3) I dropped the casting costs in the deck dramatically. Scatter the Seeds is essentially 2-3 mana and frequently 0. With the exception of 3x Gutless Ghouls (and the aforementioned Scatters) are 2cc or less! Having a ridiculously low mana curve lets me get my Sap plan going early and keep it strong.
Notes and changes from v6 to v7:
1) I took out the Herd Gnarr and Fists of Ironwood for reasons stated in v6 beta. I decided on Ravenous Rats and a full compliment of Scatter the Seeds.
2) Gutless Ghoul and Thoughtpicker Witch are incredible. They work great with anyone who's ready to die and especially with tokens. Both work fantastically against Orzhov since I can sac a dude out from under a Fetters or Pillory. They also both help this deck exert a LOT of control over the game. Once I've got enough dudes, I'm immortal and I can control what my opponent will draw forever.
3) Ravenous Rats were included for disruption/discard. Once they've dropped to the table, they're just sac bait. Frankly, given the huge number of creatures in the deck, I may opt for Mindstab after all.
4) Scatter the Seeds with Deathspore Thallid is basically a Serrated Arrows or Shambling Swarm. This is potentially a huge advantage for several reasons. Its great becuase you can block, stack damage, then sac for -1/-1 counters. The reason this is so powerful is that a single -1/-1 counter can make a huge difference in a single creature battle. Being able to spread those counters around makes all the difference in the world. The best part about playing with Scatter is that you get to sling Saps and -1/-1 counters with no mana open.
5) Pit Keeper is a huge part of the deck. When playing against regular (w/ rares and uncommons) T2 decks this came in very handy. They would attempt to clear the board with a Pyroclasm and I would finish off their remaining creatures by throwing Saps with a Deathspore Thallid or with a Last Gasp. Casting PK for PK for Deathspore Thallid would allow me to recover from a blank board position.
6) My all time favorite trick with this deck is to attack into an opponent with Aquastrand Spider, stack the damage, then pop out a few tokens and beef them up with the graft counters.
Most satisfingly, I've played this deck via MWS against guys running a TON of duals, rares, and other pricy cards with great effect. I love telling my opponent, as they're about to die, that my deck is all commons.
-H
PoP Website
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I'm having a good time here in Chicago. Fell in love with a beautiful Eastern European woman named Adriana at the top of the Hancock Tower. Ate Korean food for dinner. Got one whole day of adventure left before I head home!
I wanted to speak more about the "Deck Shop." I know Halo suggested starting with a pile of jank but that's not really the angle I was thinking. My aim was to start with an already "functional" deck and apply our individual reasoning and experience on it, after 5 games/matches apiece, and tweak the deck. We'll have three (or more) individual takes on what needs to be changed with the deck. When we post that, our matchup reports, and our card change rationale, we'll end up with some pretty substantial literature all on one deck. Our individual experiences will hopefully differ enough to give a wide panorama of the deck's performance in the metagame.
I submit that we adhere to JMS' template for Building on a Budget:
1. Take a deck.
2. Identify its major and minor themes.
3. Play 5 games with it as is to get a feel for how it plays.
4. Write a brief report of each game, citing specific cards and reasons the deck shone or failed.
5. Make tweaks not to exceed 5 cards out/in. Minor tweaks encourage real thought as opposed to "this didn't work; I'm completely revamping."
6. Play 5 more games with the new version.
7. Write game reports for those games.
8. Make more tweaks, not to exceed 5 cards out/in.
Rinse; repeat.
We can do this for 2 or 3 weeks for each deck.
Halo, I'm really stoked to see the Rock again. I wonder how it would fare against Rebels, Control, and SnowRos. If it could beat those 3, it has some of the top contenders licked.
Eegag, the UGAC Update looks pretty good. (It's actually GU, not UG... why does everyone get that wrong?) I have found that I'm very bad at ascertaining how to integrate blue into a deck's strategy if that involves adding ANY counters. U/x aggro-control may be the hardest deck archetype for me to play. Anyway, I like the build, but I have a hard time appreciating Snap Back. I'm glad it's not there.
13 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Terramorphic Expanse
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
// Creatures
4 Golgari Brownscale
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Ashcoat Bear
4 Trained Armodon
4 Boreal Centaur
3 Aquastrand Spider
4 Elvish Warrior
4 Giant Growth
4 Wildsize
4 Skred
4 Centaur Safeguard
1 Aquastrand Spider
4 Sundering Vitae
3 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Scab-Clan Mauler
Prison Yard (Pauper Future Extended)
Way to go Jak. glad you are having a great time in chi town.
I like the deck clinic idea, I just think it would help if you place a detailed strategy guide for the deck whenever posting it, that way people do not try and take it too far away from the original idea.
http://magic.jwc4.com/blog/index.html
Let's do it! I guess we have to make the stipulation then that changes to the mana-base in the form of basic lands don't count toward the 5 card restriction.
13 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Terramorphic Expanse
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
// Creatures
4 Golgari Brownscale
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Ashcoat Bear
4 Trained Armodon
4 Boreal Centaur
3 Aquastrand Spider
4 Elvish Warrior
4 Giant Growth
4 Wildsize
4 Skred
4 Centaur Safeguard
1 Aquastrand Spider
4 Sundering Vitae
3 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Scab-Clan Mauler
Sounds good to me!
I've beaten WB Rebels and SnowRos. I've not tried it against UB Control, that I recall. I think that would be a tough one since it runs many of the same control elements.
I just played Eegag with Rock Harvest v7 versus Snow Green. Saprolings rule. Direct quote from my opponent, "it abuses Grim Harvest better than any deck I've seen." I think this may be the best time for Standard pauper rock, ever. Deathspore Thallid is what makes the deck tick.
Not everyone has to designate it like that (according the order on the color wheel). My reasoning has to deal with the deck and the primary colors. I would designate a primarily blue deck with smaller green elements UG or Ug. I would designate a 50/50 blue-green deck either way.
-H
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Apparently you can't attach MWS decklists, so I exported it as a .txt file. Hopefully you can just import the deck from this .txt file. Try it!
Can somebody write up the deck's major and minor themes / win strategy? That's an important part of the process.
Snow Green really wants to establish a quick board position with solid x/3 creatures (ideally, 3/3 creatures) and keep pounding until the opponent reaches zero. The game plan does not include a lot of finesse - the most interactive card from the original deck, Shinen of Life's Roar, is no longer available in Standard.
It's important not to overcommit, even in Pauper. Martyr of Ashes or, as I was shown today, Scatter the Seeds + Deathspore Thallid can wreck your entire board in an instant.
Here are several subthemes that vary from the main midrange x/3 plan:
1. Snow. Obviously, the snow commons play a role in Snow Green - but only Boreal Centaur and Skred. I am not sure if it's possible to successfully expand on this theme with Pauper's limited cardpool, but the theme exists never-the-less.
2. Graft. Aquastrand Spider is the only Graft-enabler in the deck at the moment, but I could see adding Simic Initiate in order to guarantee bigger mid-game creatures (3/4s and 4/4s). Other possibilities exist as well.
3. Burn. Yeah, it's not a very big theme, but if you branch out into a more balanced Gruul deck, burn might compliment the x/3 plan nicely.
4. Dredge. Another very minor theme, but Greater Mossdog and Reclaim could be added to maximize its effectiveness.
Prison Yard (Pauper Future Extended)
[join the princes of pauper]
+1