as Doug Beyer stated, Xenagos can planeswalk to other planes, but what happen with his Godhood still unknown.
so now i ask, what you guys think will be happen?
as for me, i think, at first, he will be just an ordinary creature, but then if he can get enough devotion on this other planes, he will become the Gods of the said planes.
Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
The gods in Theros are so closely tied to Nyx that I doubt they can retain their godhood in a plane without Nyx.
Of course, creative can have him become the god of some random plane if they want to, but they'd have some explaining to do about how that works. Becoming a god in a plane with 14 other gods is something, but becoming a god in a plane that never had any gods is really something else.
The Gods are infused with Nyx, which is seemingly required to obtain Godhood on Theros. It is known that one does not simply planeswalk into Nyx - they can't - so you could pretty easily assume the same holds true for leaving it, as well. Other planes do not have the strange realm attached to them and at this point Xenagos is now attached to Nyx. So, it would be pretty hard to become a God on another plane, let alone Planeswalk there.
I doubt he would have or could gain god status on other planes, it's just part of the unique metaphysics of Theros, like how Zendikar has the roil and demons reincarnate on Innistrad.
I agree with the people saying he would lose his God status on other planes, but I wonder if he would be able to regain it planeswalking into Theros again.
Since a normal PW can maintain mana bonds to a land while on a different plane, I don't see why Xenagos couldn't maintain his bond to Nyx (and thus his godly powers) while elsewhere.
Since a normal PW can maintain mana bonds to a land while on a different plane, I don't see why Xenagos couldn't maintain his bond to Nyx (and thus his godly powers) while elsewhere.
Well, godhood isn't exactly a mana bond, is it?
Plus bonding to lands for mana works at least in part because that mana can exist in all other planes of existence. Godhood in a non-God plane isn't so simple.
Since a normal PW can maintain mana bonds to a land while on a different plane, I don't see why Xenagos couldn't maintain his bond to Nyx (and thus his godly powers) while elsewhere.
Nyx is really more akin to an enchantment than it is to a land. Xenagos didn't become a god by establishing a link to Nyx, all his rituals were done on Theros itself.
Since a normal PW can maintain mana bonds to a land while on a different plane, I don't see why Xenagos couldn't maintain his bond to Nyx (and thus his godly powers) while elsewhere.
If one can't Planeswalk into Nyx there's no reason to think it functions as a land, or has mana itself.
Nyx is really more akin to an enchantment than it is to a land. Xenagos didn't become a god by establishing a link to Nyx, all his rituals were done on Theros itself.
I get that. My point is that Xenagos may be able to use his experience with otherworldly mana bonds to be able to maintain his link to Nyx even when he's elsewhere.
Besides, while his rituals were done on Theros, he learned how to do them elsewhere. It would be quite reasonable for him to have learned other god-related things as well.
I get that. My point is that Xenagos may be able to use his experience with otherworldly mana bonds to be able to maintain his link to Nyx even when he's elsewhere.
That seems really unlikely since other planes don't have the right environment for him to tap into and that sort of connection tends to be a closed bubble.
Even if he could access Nyx, the followers powering him are elsewhere, cut off from him as surely as anything else on Theros.
Besides, while his rituals were done on Theros, he learned how to do them elsewhere. It would be quite reasonable for him to have learned other god-related things as well.
We actually have no clue where he learned to do them. It seems unlikely to have come from off Theros.
That seems really unlikely since other planes don't have the right environment for him to tap into and that sort of connection tends to be a closed bubble.
Even if he could access Nyx, the followers powering him are elsewhere, cut off from him as surely as anything else on Theros.
I don't see why some other planes couldn't have the right environment. The multiverse is a big place.
As for the followers problem, there're two possible solutions. Either he can access that type of energy source through some kind of bond similar to mana bonds, or he can power up from the locals. Revelry isn't limited to Theros.
We actually have no clue where he learned to do them. It seems unlikely to have come from off Theros.
It's seems unlikely to have come from Theros. If that knowledge were already on Theros, I'm sure someone would have done it before. (I doubt he's the only one to want to become a god.) Or even that he would have done it before his interplanar travels.
Mortals not being able to become gods is one of the rules of Theros. To break it, you need something not of Theros.
I don't see why some other planes couldn't have the right environment. The multiverse is a big place.
No other world has Nyx. Trying to find one that has something like Nyx still won't be Nyx. Nyx runs on its own metaphysics and in the NIGH Infinite planes, trying to find something close enough to Nyx is... a waste of time.
It's seems unlikely to have come from Theros. If that knowledge were already on Theros, I'm sure someone would have done it before. (I doubt he's the only one to want to become a god.) Or even that he would have done it before his interplanar travels.
Nobody would have the perspective needed likely. It is just an inviolate rule that the gods were as they were and the mortals were as they were. When Xenagos discovered the other planes didn't have the same rules, it shook EVERYTHING he thought about, which is why he probably put together the needed understanding to perform the rituals.
Mortals not being able to become gods is one of the rules of Theros. To break it, you need something not of Theros.
It really isn't or Xenagos wouldn't have been able to do what he had, no matter what kind of thing he had learned elsewhere. The problem here is the gods suddenly realizing that they didn't create Theros, but were a product of it. They've been living so long that they believed their own hype, in part because belief reinforces their personalities and own beliefs. If enough people believed, for one reason or another, that one of the gods shifted color, they probably would.
It's seems unlikely to have come from Theros. If that knowledge were already on Theros, I'm sure someone would have done it before. (I doubt he's the only one to want to become a god.) Or even that he would have done it before his interplanar travels.
Mortals not being able to become gods is one of the rules of Theros. To break it, you need something not of Theros.
I can see where you're coming from. I myself thought and still think that he got the information elsewhere. I mean, I highly doubt that the satyrs on Theros had libraries of information from which he could glean what he needed. I also doubt that he could have accessed some ancient possible information in other human cities without anyone being like, hey, check out what this guy found in this place we've always known about but didn't look at.
And even so, to look for the information would have meant he knew the gods were not always gods. From what I understand, all he knew was that other planes didn't have gods. Anyone else in that position would wonder why Theros had gods and other planes did not. I don't see how that translates to knowing that the gods were once mortal without him finding that information somewhere. There's a few leaps to make between "There are only gods on Theros" to "Great Scott, the gods were once mortals like me who then became gods, and maybe I can become one too." I think it makes more sense that he sought out the information elsewhere, on other planes, maybe. Maybe oldwalkers had been to Theros, knew about the gods and their mortality, and knew how it was done, saving the info on some plane that Xenagos went to. Or maybe some other entity in the Multiverse informed him of it because they had personal knowledge.
Either way, it doesn't make much sense that he all of a sudden knew how to make a ritual to become a god when all he knew to start was that gods weren't on every plane.
Either way, it doesn't make much sense that he all of a sudden knew how to make a ritual to become a god when all he knew to start was that gods weren't on every plane.
The thing here is the idea that there was one source from which he got the information. It's likely that it is a combination of a lot of smaller bits of information, which when put in the right context, allowed him to create the ritual.
So, it might not have been one thing, but a string of things... which seems to be corroborated with the fact that he had to do more than ONE ritual for it to work.
It's also important to note that just because Xenagos became a god, does not mean the other gods were mortal once. It means, as I said earlier, that THEY weren't always part of Nyx.
No other world has Nyx. Trying to find one that has something like Nyx still won't be Nyx. Nyx runs on its own metaphysics and in the NIGH Infinite planes, trying to find something close enough to Nyx is... a waste of time.
It doesn't have to be Nyx. It just has to be compatible with Xenagos's god ID card (metaphorically speaking, of course).
Nobody would have the perspective needed likely. It is just an inviolate rule that the gods were as they were and the mortals were as they were.
Not everyone thinks things through this deeply. The fact that it was considered impossible won't stop some people from trying.
When Xenagos discovered the other planes didn't have the same rules, it shook EVERYTHING he thought about, which is why he probably put together the needed understanding to perform the rituals.
I'm not sure he could have done this by himself. It would be a different story if he were blue, but he isn't. He's a reveler, not a scholar. It seems more likely that he found some critical information/magic on some other world. There are surely plenty of worlds with gods of some kind, after all.
It seems more likely that he found some critical information/magic on some other world. There are surely plenty of worlds with gods of some kind, after all.
See, that's the problem, is that there really AREN'T.
Gods, on Theros have a very narrow band of meaning, as enchantment beings bound as part of Nyx.
The closest thing to it would be the Utsushiyo of Kamigawa, but even then, they are not gods, but spirits.
There are many many god like beings, but there are very few beings out there that would fit the model of god Xenagos has by which to define and they, in turn, have their own rules which you couldn't apply to things like Progenitus, for example.
This is the problem with assuming all metaphysics are comparable, because part of what defines the worldbuilding ARE the differences while the similarities are taken as granted, such as gravity or world shape. Sometimes those similarities aren't present, but what is defined as a world's identity will very likely always be unique.
I agree with Barinellos on the fact that Xenagos mostly likely found a way to become a god on Theros. Yes other planes have gods but none seem to work in the same way they do. Example I don't think if people stopped believing in the Kami they would vanish, same with Progenitus. I think Nyx and the way the Theros gods work is only on Theros.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
With Nyx being associated with dreaming, especially with the new inspired mechanic, I have an idea:
The reason you can't planeswalk into Nyx is the fact that you can't planeswalk into someone's mind. Nyx is the collective consciousness of all the living beings on Theros. The fact that everything from Nyx is an enchantment is showing that they're all formed from the mass-collected thoughts of everything on Theros.
We were specifically told the reason Xenagos was angry at the gods was because he realized they didn't exist in other planes. If he had been to one or two other planes where there were Gods worked like the ones in Nyx, he probably wouldn't have been so angry. And if the Rituals for becoming a god were well known in that plane (enough that they were taught to a creature that clearly doesn't belong on the plane) wouldn't mortals there be continuously fighting to become gods?
About learning about the Rituals, while I do think it will turn out that another character taught them to Xenagos, it is not completely impossible that he figured it out by studying mana relationships (which could have led him to realize there were no R/G gods), the enchantment nature of Nyx, the effects of devotion/belief on the Gods/Nyxborn, existing Rituals oracles or priests used and perhaps a bit of ancient lore.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I agree with Barinellos on the fact that Xenagos mostly likely found a way to become a god on Theros.
While I'm not totally on board with the 'finding out how to be a god on Theros', if it were in fact a source on Theros, I could see Phenax being involved. I don't see Xenagos doing research on his own, and I don't see him making the connection that 'No Gods on Other Planes' = 'There is a way to become a god' without some outside influence. Phenax strikes me as a trickster god sort of character. I don't know which, if any, other god would fit into that role as well as Phenax, the God of Deception. While other gods may be drinking their own Kool-Aid, maybe Phenax knew all along, and would like to shake things up. If there was a god that would like to see Xenagos succeed, it may be Phenax. I'm not sure how else Xenagos would have gotten access to the information, since he doesn't strike me as the studious sort.
... I've heard the "Phenax helped him" theory a lot and you know something, as much as I can see it I really hope it's not the case. I like the fact we have a villain who is neither Black nor Blue and turning Phenax into the man behind the man here I feel takes some of that away.
Personally I'm curious about something. Do we know how long ago Xenagos' planeswalker spark ignited? How long, before the start of the Theros story line was it when he first planeswalked. If it's a relatively significant amount of time (a couple of years at least) I think I've got my own theory.
so now i ask, what you guys think will be happen?
as for me, i think, at first, he will be just an ordinary creature, but then if he can get enough devotion on this other planes, he will become the Gods of the said planes.
Of course, creative can have him become the god of some random plane if they want to, but they'd have some explaining to do about how that works. Becoming a god in a plane with 14 other gods is something, but becoming a god in a plane that never had any gods is really something else.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Well, godhood isn't exactly a mana bond, is it?
Plus bonding to lands for mana works at least in part because that mana can exist in all other planes of existence. Godhood in a non-God plane isn't so simple.
Nyx is really more akin to an enchantment than it is to a land. Xenagos didn't become a god by establishing a link to Nyx, all his rituals were done on Theros itself.
If one can't Planeswalk into Nyx there's no reason to think it functions as a land, or has mana itself.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I get that. My point is that Xenagos may be able to use his experience with otherworldly mana bonds to be able to maintain his link to Nyx even when he's elsewhere.
Besides, while his rituals were done on Theros, he learned how to do them elsewhere. It would be quite reasonable for him to have learned other god-related things as well.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Even if he could access Nyx, the followers powering him are elsewhere, cut off from him as surely as anything else on Theros.
We actually have no clue where he learned to do them. It seems unlikely to have come from off Theros.
I don't see why some other planes couldn't have the right environment. The multiverse is a big place.
As for the followers problem, there're two possible solutions. Either he can access that type of energy source through some kind of bond similar to mana bonds, or he can power up from the locals. Revelry isn't limited to Theros.
It's seems unlikely to have come from Theros. If that knowledge were already on Theros, I'm sure someone would have done it before. (I doubt he's the only one to want to become a god.) Or even that he would have done it before his interplanar travels.
Mortals not being able to become gods is one of the rules of Theros. To break it, you need something not of Theros.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Nobody would have the perspective needed likely. It is just an inviolate rule that the gods were as they were and the mortals were as they were. When Xenagos discovered the other planes didn't have the same rules, it shook EVERYTHING he thought about, which is why he probably put together the needed understanding to perform the rituals.
It really isn't or Xenagos wouldn't have been able to do what he had, no matter what kind of thing he had learned elsewhere. The problem here is the gods suddenly realizing that they didn't create Theros, but were a product of it. They've been living so long that they believed their own hype, in part because belief reinforces their personalities and own beliefs. If enough people believed, for one reason or another, that one of the gods shifted color, they probably would.
I can see where you're coming from. I myself thought and still think that he got the information elsewhere. I mean, I highly doubt that the satyrs on Theros had libraries of information from which he could glean what he needed. I also doubt that he could have accessed some ancient possible information in other human cities without anyone being like, hey, check out what this guy found in this place we've always known about but didn't look at.
And even so, to look for the information would have meant he knew the gods were not always gods. From what I understand, all he knew was that other planes didn't have gods. Anyone else in that position would wonder why Theros had gods and other planes did not. I don't see how that translates to knowing that the gods were once mortal without him finding that information somewhere. There's a few leaps to make between "There are only gods on Theros" to "Great Scott, the gods were once mortals like me who then became gods, and maybe I can become one too." I think it makes more sense that he sought out the information elsewhere, on other planes, maybe. Maybe oldwalkers had been to Theros, knew about the gods and their mortality, and knew how it was done, saving the info on some plane that Xenagos went to. Or maybe some other entity in the Multiverse informed him of it because they had personal knowledge.
Either way, it doesn't make much sense that he all of a sudden knew how to make a ritual to become a god when all he knew to start was that gods weren't on every plane.
The thing here is the idea that there was one source from which he got the information. It's likely that it is a combination of a lot of smaller bits of information, which when put in the right context, allowed him to create the ritual.
So, it might not have been one thing, but a string of things... which seems to be corroborated with the fact that he had to do more than ONE ritual for it to work.
It's also important to note that just because Xenagos became a god, does not mean the other gods were mortal once. It means, as I said earlier, that THEY weren't always part of Nyx.
It doesn't have to be Nyx. It just has to be compatible with Xenagos's god ID card (metaphorically speaking, of course).
Not everyone thinks things through this deeply. The fact that it was considered impossible won't stop some people from trying.
I'm not sure he could have done this by himself. It would be a different story if he were blue, but he isn't. He's a reveler, not a scholar. It seems more likely that he found some critical information/magic on some other world. There are surely plenty of worlds with gods of some kind, after all.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
See, that's the problem, is that there really AREN'T.
Gods, on Theros have a very narrow band of meaning, as enchantment beings bound as part of Nyx.
The closest thing to it would be the Utsushiyo of Kamigawa, but even then, they are not gods, but spirits.
There are many many god like beings, but there are very few beings out there that would fit the model of god Xenagos has by which to define and they, in turn, have their own rules which you couldn't apply to things like Progenitus, for example.
This is the problem with assuming all metaphysics are comparable, because part of what defines the worldbuilding ARE the differences while the similarities are taken as granted, such as gravity or world shape. Sometimes those similarities aren't present, but what is defined as a world's identity will very likely always be unique.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The reason you can't planeswalk into Nyx is the fact that you can't planeswalk into someone's mind. Nyx is the collective consciousness of all the living beings on Theros. The fact that everything from Nyx is an enchantment is showing that they're all formed from the mass-collected thoughts of everything on Theros.
About learning about the Rituals, while I do think it will turn out that another character taught them to Xenagos, it is not completely impossible that he figured it out by studying mana relationships (which could have led him to realize there were no R/G gods), the enchantment nature of Nyx, the effects of devotion/belief on the Gods/Nyxborn, existing Rituals oracles or priests used and perhaps a bit of ancient lore.
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/73487640842/so-xenagos-is-he-still-a-planeswalker-if-he-leaves
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
While I'm not totally on board with the 'finding out how to be a god on Theros', if it were in fact a source on Theros, I could see Phenax being involved. I don't see Xenagos doing research on his own, and I don't see him making the connection that 'No Gods on Other Planes' = 'There is a way to become a god' without some outside influence. Phenax strikes me as a trickster god sort of character. I don't know which, if any, other god would fit into that role as well as Phenax, the God of Deception. While other gods may be drinking their own Kool-Aid, maybe Phenax knew all along, and would like to shake things up. If there was a god that would like to see Xenagos succeed, it may be Phenax. I'm not sure how else Xenagos would have gotten access to the information, since he doesn't strike me as the studious sort.
Personally I'm curious about something. Do we know how long ago Xenagos' planeswalker spark ignited? How long, before the start of the Theros story line was it when he first planeswalked. If it's a relatively significant amount of time (a couple of years at least) I think I've got my own theory.
You can check out my artwork here and here