MTGS Classics: An Analysis of Legacy's Banned List

[Qwerty]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, MTGS Classics: An Analysis of Legacy's Banned List. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[Belgareth]

Sheesh , this brings me back. I remember helping lennie when he wrote this article.
It actually isn't that outdated ( if a little controversial) , however maybe after a 3rd GP wotc may shake up the format and unban some cards

Nice to see this article again , it reminded me of the good times I had with lennie on msn discussing legacy modding.

[k1ndred]

I was thinking baout land tax, and i don't know if is a good idea to unban that card, besides the scroll rack combo to draw 3 cards a turn, there are other ways to abuse it in combo decks and i don't see too much scroll rack in use, i may be wrong but that's it.

IMO unbanning land tax will rise a new era of card advantage and deck filtering. Filtering 3 lands in a deck is sure strong for combo decks, and if you can use them to pump other cards, this is sure a problem. The first interaction i see is seismic assault in a CAL like deck for legacy. Combo with zombie infestation and you got lots of tokens and filtered lands. land tax indeed opens many dangerous possibilities for combo decks.

unbanning skullclamp with land tax sure could bring some kind of second combo winter, but entomb is sure strong with avatarr and graveyard interaction, but i believe won't make much impact on legacy

[Travis of the Cosmos]

Very nice article to read. I agree that Land Tax, while very abusable, is done so over the course of a game, and it doesn't swing wins immediately. It should come off the banned list.

The only one I disagree with is Vampiric Tutor. Not so much that I have an example in mind, but if powerful combo decks got to fill 4 slots with a card that nearly guarantees them on turn 2 to have whatever they are lacking (if anything), it would be kind of scary. If someone uses a Brain Freeze to stop it, then they are burning a win condition, not a utility card, to get rid of it. This is a bad trade. Its probably too slow, but Future Sight would be really interesting with it.

[Eldariel]

-Land Tax is no Life from the Loam. Easy unban. Even forces you to play basics, which hurts as white itself isn't very good at abusing it. WW doesn't need it to work, it doesn't help the poor combo-MU and other WW-MUs are already good. On another note, Parfait is the most boring deck ever, so that's the possible downside. The good news is, modern control-decks tend to be just plain better than Parfait was.
-Entomb is a frustrating idea. It would make the 'weaker' colours (red, green) even worse by providing more things they lack sufficient answers for (Turn 1 Akromas). Sure, white, blue and black deal with the reanimated fatties, but is it really good to make the already-strong parts of those decks even stronger?
-Skullclamp in a format where Goblins are nuts? No thanks, control's already really poor against an open metagame (has always been thanks to the different threats, decks like High Tide and ATS have provided), do we want to prevent it from coming back completely? If there's ever to be hope for control, Skullclamp must remain on the list. In fact, this card would just make Goblins better, which in turn would make combo better, which in turn would make Thres better. Effectively, the only real effect it would have is to make the MUs more lopsided than they are at the present (with Clamp, Goblins would have 3 different must-answers at 1CC instead of 2)
-Hermit Druid, could potentially be bad for colours again as green tends to lack answers, but beyond that, not all that scary. Still, creatures that :t: FTW are better than creatures that have to swing FTW. 1/1s die easily enough though and Tormod's Crypt exists at 0-CC for all colours, which happens to read "Destroy target Angry Hermit." A fair alternative.
-Vampiric Tutor, the biggest problem is how it obsoletes all the other Mirage-tutors in the format. I'd much rather see Imperial Seal reprinted and legalized, as it would still give Enlightened Tutor, Mystical Tutor and Worldly Tutor some reasons to exist.

Worthy comments, although nothing wholly new to the discussion, perhaps because it isn't a new article itself. Funny how there's still a discussion on the same matters.

[Virel]

Entomb - It's pretty easy to get a turn 1/2 Akroma with four of these. For casual play I have a deck built around Entomb. Most folks don't like playing against the deck. Add 4 Vampiric Tutors, 4 Entombs, with 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Dark Rit's, plus quality discard to get that one answer they might have and it just starts to get silly.

Hermit Druid - I have no experience with the card, no comment.

Land Tax - Might be worth unbanning. I don't think Parfait/MWC/Rabid Wombat is really going to be viable in Legacy. Combo has too many outs against those sorts of decks. R/W Goblins might experiment with it as a way to get land out of the deck to improve the draws.

Skullclamp - Let's make Goblins better! I tend to play Goblins a fair amount in Legacy, I'm pretty sure unbanning this would be a major mistake. For the most part it won't bring in many if any new Aggro decks so much as make the current Aggro stronger.

Vampiric Tutor - Just what combo really needs to become faster and more consistant. Every Two Land Belcher deck will packing four of these as will Reanimator type decks. One mana, instant speed, any card you want to the top of the deck is very powerful. As mentioned above it will displace the other tutors. I've played against too many decks that run four of these in casual to0 think should come back to Legacy.

Reprinting Imperal Seal as mentioned above is an interesting idea. Likewise, Grim Tutor might be a canidate.

Any serious discussion of Banning Force of Will, indicates a complete failure to understand the format, unless the goal is to get the format to degenerate into fast combo. I tend to play Goblins or Angel Stompy most of the time for serious Legacy and I don't think FoW should be banned.

Here are two more on the Bannded List that might be worth talking about in additon.

Metalwoker - Might be worth looking at for unbanning.

Mana Drain - Should it return to the format? The card would be one of the most expensive to get if it returned to Legacy.

[Belgareth]

Originally Posted by Virel

Any serious discussion of Banning Force of Will, indicates a complete failure to understand the format,

Never for a moment think qwerty does not understand the format , I actually remember discussing this bit with him. He was really playing devils advocate and at the time this was written (almost 2 yrs ago) landstill was still rampant and threshold and iggy pop were not the dominating decks they are now.
It was meant to encourage new growth

[sclocke42]

The key thing I want to say is that the author seems to completely overlook one of the major influences behind the Legacy banned list: it's to keep Legacy balanced, but it's also to keep Legacy from becoming another Vintage or Extended environment.

A lot of the cards that are on the Legacy banned list now could be removed, if all you're concerned about are power issues. Oath of Druids does very similar things that Hermit Druid does, albiet without tapping, mana, or another spell to make you win. But Oath shows up in Vintage all the time, and Wizards didn't want that happening in Legacy as well.

More-or-less the same can be said about Hermit Druid. It was the backbone of reanimator decks in Extended when it was legal. If they made the Druid legal in Legacy he'd be the backbone of reanimator decks again. It'd be a blast from Extended's past, and Legacy doesn't want that.


I think it's funny that the article mentions, in casual passing, previous arguments to get Survival banned, yet it moves to unban a vastly more powerful tutor. Vampiric Tutor should stay where it is, for precisely the reasons given in the comments already.

Skullclamp definitely needs to stay on the list as well. It's one of those cards that, unless you have an answer for it the moment your opponent plays it, your opponent starts winning. You can't always have an answer everytime your opponent pays :1:.

Land Tax can probably be unbanned without too much fuss. Perhaps Entomb as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if Friggorid decks suddenly started dominating Top 8 lists everywhere.


Personally, I thought this article was lacking. The arguments for unbanning cards was simply "because it would create a more diverse meta." Not a bad argument, but it gets tiresome reading it four or five times throughout.

Lots of other logic seems flawed:

Originally Posted by Lennie Brookes

The argument is that the card does not fit white's place on the colour wheel because of the excessive cards that are effectively drawn. I think this comment is complete and utter trash. If that were the case, why isn’t Swords To Plowshares on the banned list?

Because a) like Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares answers a lot of threats that would otherwise go unchecked; and b) it's not card drawing or card advantage in any way. You are trading one of your cards for one of theirs. That's card parity.

Originally Posted by Lennie Brookes

This is one of the few cards that was almost universally agreed shouldn’t be on the list. For the life of me I cannot figure out how they banned Vampiric Tutor, but not Survival of the Fittest. If you rate either on a power scale, Survival of the Fittest comes out on top 80% of the time. I cannot give an argument for why this card was banned, so I will just move on.

Vampiric Tutor can get you any card. It costs only one card, one mana, and is an instant. On the other hand Survival can only get you creature cards (which as a whole are generally not as powerful and/or important as spells), costs two mana at sorcery speed just to play the enchantment, and then another mana and another card to get your first tutoring effect. B for any card, or 1GG and a creature card for another creature card? They are both powerful, but Survival is slower and more restricted in how powerful it can be.


EDIT: Regarding Mana Drain and Metalworker:
You may note that just about every card that is worth $100 or more is banned in Legacy. This opens the format up to people who have a large and expansive collection who cannot afford to spend $100 or more on a single card. Also, if Mana Drain were legal, too many Vintage decks would find their way into the format. This goes back to my argument about Wizards doing their job and keep the separate formats separate.

As for Metalworker: It generates the obscene amount of mana that Mind Over Matter can produce, only for the cost to cast and activate Scroll Rack. And Vintage decks would once again run rampage through a format Vintage decks have no business rampaging through.

[Belgareth]

I think the whole ATS deck proves discarding a card is not a bad thing and mana is never an issue and it can be done again and again.

Those people who say ATS is dead and is not that powerful either can't play the deck right or havn't visited europe.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Um, unbanning Skullclamp would be a colossal mistake, and you know it. The powerlevel of that card is INSANE.

[SnoopDoggAtog]

Agree on land tax and vamp, but still on the fence with entomb and definitely Druid and Clamp are not only degenerate, but in exactly opposite directions - Druid is a very narrow combo card that is just as difficult to stop as the widely ba-roken Clamp. I suppose you could argue that Druid's narrowness and fragility (and green color) make it reasonable to consider unbanning, and I would have to agree with that, although the combo can be pulled off on turn 2 or 3 making it just plain a pest on the meta.

Entomb is sort of iffy. Yes, graveyard effects are narrow and yard hate is higher than ever right now. No, I don't think it's okay on principle for any color to have a turn-one instant graveyarding spell. Dragon aside, there are plenty of reasons not to take Entomb lightly. I suppose you could counter that tormods crypt costs 0 and comes out swinging, but who wants to play in a meta where you have to maindeck crud like that and Stifle?

[MadMageQc]

Good article and arguments in general, but like most people who read it, there are some suggested unbannings I agree with, some I don't.

I personally know someone who would love to see Land Tax unbanned : Raphael Caron, the creator of Parfait, who lives in my town. The deck could easily be updated to become one of the best control decks of the format. It wouldn't be monowhite tough; it most probably would have a black splash for Vindicate and Duress (Raphael is playing black in all his versions of Parfait nowadays). I don't think it would be degenerate, just cool.

Imperial Seal is at the right power level for Legacy, Vampiric Tutor is not. But unbanning the Seal would make it the most rare and pricey card in the format by a mile, and it's still too good to be reprinted nowadays. Note also that if they unban Vampiric, they'd logically have to unban the Seal too. I don't know if any deck would want to play more than 4 of these, but the possibility of 8 still frightens me a bit.

Skullclamp is purely broken. It would allow Goblins and Affinity, the best aggro decks, to dominate even more than they do at the moment. It would bring back interesting dead decks like Elf-clamp and Kobolds, but the danger of overpowering the already existing aggro is too great IMO (especially for Affinity).

Entomb doesn't look like it could do much damage to the format, but I'm not sure if I wanna face decks that consistently put Simic Sky Swallower or Iridescent Angel into play turn 1-2. These two die only to Wrath of God and Diabolic Edict, two cards that are not played much in Legacy these days. Still, Entomb is the card that I'm the most uncertain about in the list, and it might be fine.

[Avatar of Kokusho]

If they unbanned Clamp, I'd burn my Forces publically.

That said, I agree with most of this article. Most of this has been debated in recent times in the Legacy forums, and while opinions differ, most people feel that the ban list is a bit too restrictive.

Entomb: Okay, one card to the yard. Probably something huge, followed by a Reanimate. In a format where there are at least fifteen good ways to kill a creature, this is basically not a problem. Akroma may be pro red and black, but Swords still takes her out quite nicely. If it's Iridescent Angel they're after, Edicts are your friends.

Hermit Druid: Well, well, well. A nonblue combo idea. It's not as much of an issue as before, because Pithing Needle puts a hamper on his plans, but there are many interesting things you can do with this guy even without Replenish.

Land Tax: It gets you...land. Plains, even. Okay. Survival of the Fittest gets you creatures, with the drawback of discarding one you probably don't want in your hand anyway. Do you see the power level disparity here, guys? So what if it combos with Scroll Rack, or gives Rabid Wombat or Rifter their land drops? Next, please.

Skullclamp: Sure. Right. Let's make Goblins even more insane. Let's give rise to KoboldClamp in Legacy. Oh, HELL no. This card is banned for a reason. Let's keep it that way. <insert sound of brokenness>

Vampiric Tutor: I don't get why this one's banned. It's good, but not insane. Not broken, as it doesn't go to the hand- one Predict and your card is history. I, personally, would send fresh baked cookies to the DCI if they unbanned this card, because it would help my pet deck immensely.

As much as I hate to see my spells countered because my opponent RFG'd a blue card and paid a life, banning Force would be utterly, utterly stupid. It's one of the defining cards of the format.

Unbanning Mana Drain could be rather interesting...

On the opposite side of the coin, let's ban Reset and Goblin Lackey. Oh, and the island.

Good article, especially because it's still mostly relevant.

[Mortal Wombat]

The first thing that I thought of with the notion of "unban Skullclamp" was Goblins. The last thing that deck needs is a way to get more cards. It's already got the Ringleader for that. That's a no-no for a reason.

[Othersider]

I know this is my first post here, so be gentle, please, if you disagree with me.

Entomb: I agree completely. I can't see this card by itself just wreaking havoc, especially as long as Worldgorger Dragon and a few other cards are still banned. What, in your graveyard, is so powerful? Yawgmoth's Will is out, and probably would be the last card removed from the banned list. Most of Recoup's targets are out. Regrowth is in, and can get you anything back from your graveyard for 1G. Does Entomb really need to be on the banned list? I don't think so, at least not right now.

Hermit Druid: I also haven't ever played with this, so I can't speak from experience on this one. But, I can see that there are some fairly powerful combos possible with this card, even though it's not blue. I'll abstain on this one.

Land Tax: The most powerful thing I can see this doing is dealing 6 damage a turn (Seismic Assault) or drawing you up to three cards a turn (Scroll Rack). Is this worth banning? I don't really think so, not right now.

Skullclamp: The possibilities for this card seem significantly worse than Land Tax. I'm inclined to say I think this one ought to stay banned in Legacy.

Vampiric Tutor: The fact that it goes to the top of your library and not immediately to your hand limits its potential for abuse. I'm not sure if I think this is too powerful for Legacy, but I'd bring this one back before Skullclamp.

On a few other cards:

Mana Drain: Unbanning this would be a bad idea. One of the things that keeps the power of blue in check is how difficult it is to generate mana quickly. At UU, this card is significantly undercosted for Legacy.

Earthcraft: I'm curious why this is on the list. I'm probably missing something, but I can't presently think of what it is.

Necropotence: I'm kinda curious what everyone else's thoughts on this card are. I know it's powerful, but imagine that it were unbanned. I don't suddenly see Legacy turning into Black Summer, where pretty much every deck was either Necro or anti-Necro. Given the power of Thresh, Solidarity, Goblins, and so on, I don't see Necro decks suddenly eclipsing all of them in one fell swoop.

Also, does anyone think Grim Monolith ought to be unbanned if we're going to continue to allow Dark Ritual? Or should we ban Ritual, unless we bring back Mana Vault?