What Next for Legacy? Cheating the Rules of Mana

[Finn]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, What Next for Legacy? Cheating the Rules of Mana. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[UrDraco]

I would have to disagree with banning vial. Legacy is a fast format and Aether Vial just isn't that fast. Goblins doesn't ocasionally beat solidarity because of vial "powering out" a mog fanatic on turn two. It wins because of Lackey powering out crazyier things even faster. Vial is a great card against the control matchup but it isn't as devistating as Lackey. The reason why control decks have trouble dealing with goblins is the speed. I am sure that a control deck could deal with goblins if it had the time to cast a wrath of god or mutilate. Aether vial doesn't really come online until it has 3+ counters, more than enough time to draw pernicious deed/wrath of god/pyroclasm. As an experienced Legacy player I would have to say that one of the best ways to neuter goblins is by cutting lackey from the format. I don't ever see vial putting a Seige Gang Commander into play, followed up by casting a piledriver, all on turn 2 (deffinitly doing a better job cheating mana rules if you ask me)! Aether Vial is a beuautiful card because it allows for non-goblins agro to actually have a chance against control. Yes Vial is good in goblins, but my vote would be that lackey be gotten rid of first, and leave vial in to give decks like Fish or stompy varients a chance.

[DVagabond]

It's too bad they can't just restrict both the Lackey and the Vial ... I think that would be an equitable solution, allowing Goblins in (mostly) its current form to still exist, but severely cutting down its chances of reliably mutilating virtually every other deck in the format by turn 4.

[Noman Peopled]

Vial is problematic because there are only narrow answers to. And the best one is a Tinkerer target. Lackey, while way faster, is more situational and more easily dealt with using cards that have good uses in other matchups.

Originally Posted by UrDraco

I am sure that a control deck could deal with goblins if it had the time to cast a wrath of god or mutilate. Aether vial doesn't really come online until it has 3+ counters, more than enough time to draw pernicious deed/wrath of god/pyroclasm.

NQG/r is already able to cast Clasm (which, incidentally, is another useless card in the Top Tier, barring Crypt in the NQG mirror). One Ringleader will easily allow Goblins to recover. Also, as long as Wasteland and Port are legal, Wrath is only a fifth-turn or even later answer.

While I don't necessarily agree with banning Vial, the article does a nice job expressing my own two concerns about Legacy - one, that the metagame is stagnant, and two, that cards that are solid against Goblins are often a huge liability against anything else.

*np goes tinker with AS, Wildfire.dec, and Stax*

[Isamaru]

Originally Posted by UrDraco

Aether Vial is a beuautiful card because it allows for non-goblins agro to actually have a chance against control. Yes Vial is good in goblins, but my vote would be that lackey be gotten rid of first, and leave vial in to give decks like Fish or stompy varients a chance.

When Finn showed me this article for the first time, though I was biased, I immediately had this opinion, and I'm glad you agree. After I voiced the downsides for other decks trying to compete with goblins that use the vial to Finn, I asked him to include a short "Devil's Advocate" paragraph at the end of the article, but it looks like he didn't end up doing so.

We may both be biased, UrDraco (because of our two variations on Horror that need 4x Vial to compete), but I believe it's the truth that Vial is what gives OTHER aggro decks a chance to try to cheat as much as Goblin Lacky allows goblins to cheat.

Why would we restrict both? Restriction isn't done in legacy because there are simply more tutors, and restriction is pointless overall (it's what I hate about Vintage - it turned it into a format of tutors), and anyway, nobody would run Vial if it was restricted, because it's an early game card, drawing it late game is pointless. Lacky is good at any time, though, and requires no time investment. Either way, restriction is stupid.

The format isn't really that stagnant, and I definitely don't think banning the Vial is the solution - In my opinion, I don't think it is really that great in Goblins besides for dropping Lacky and Piledriver... again, I'm biased, but I think my own deck abuses vial even more. I didn't say my deck was better; why? Goblins are better/more-"broken" by nature - and that's exactly my point.

Noman Peopled, if you think Vial is acceleration that cant be dealt with by common means (creature kill), then I could argue the same for Sakura-Tribe Elder, couldn't I? You can only stop it with a counterspell, Pithing Needle, or split second creature (artifact for Vial) removal.

Finn, it sort of saddens me that someone I respect so much has doubts about Legacy. Let me say this: it's not the banned list that is making the format stagnant (if it is at all) - it's printing new sets that offer NOTHING new to the format, so that there is barely any innovation. Time Spiral's purples are worthless to us, and the only good cards in the set seem to be Smallpox and Sage of Epityr, if that. Ravnica was the last set that offered us innovation - think about how many cards are used from Ravnica in Legacy, and then think about how many cards are used currently in Legacy from sets after that: Coldsnap and Timespiral are both throwback sets by definition, and therefore offer us nothing.

People mistake this stagnation on Wizard's part for a problem with the banned list... but in reality, WotC just needs to be a bit more innovative on the front lines, so that when we go to make decks using their cards, we have things to choose from. I've been waiting a year for new cards - THAT's stagnation, not whether or not Goblins has vial or not. And what's worse is that we'll have to wait until the entire TS block is said and done, (ANOTHER year!) or at least until Future Sight, before we finally get anything original...

This goes more and more into whether or not Wizards supports this format - the only Logical format, but the one that makes them the second least amount of money.

[Masked_Rider]

Goblins are good, but over rated to someone willing to build a sideboard

Anybody hear of Tividar's Crusade?

I hear that it's a great sb card, and 8 wraths guarantee drawing them after sb.

[Isamaru]

Well, goblins are good, we all know that, but it could be argued that only White or Red have answers to the little guys. Instead of printing a throwback to Tividar, how about printing some cards in different colors that allow other colors to handle goblin swarms?

All the while, Wizards is working so hard to make Type 2 so "safe" that they end up not thinking about what needs to be done in Eternal formats - who cares, anyway, it's not like they are making any money off those formats... sigh. Cards that are standard-safe can't easily trickle down to Eternal formats.

[Eldariel]

I'm just saying, there was a large (8-round) Legacy side event at the worlds; Top 8 had one Goblins and 0 Thresholds, even though seas of both were present. The Top 8 comprised of Loam/Confinement, Faerie Stompy, Burn, 43 Lands, Goblins and a mystery-deck. That hardly seems like a stagnant metagame.

Btw, there are more cards seeing playtime from post-Ravnica:
Jötun Grunt
Serra Avenger
Krosan Grip

And then cards like Counterbalance that just need time to find their homes, and general utility that shows up once the decks playing 'em will (like Rites of Flame, Saffi Eriksdotter, etc.)

[Travis of the Cosmos]

Originally Posted by Isamaru

Well, goblins are good, we all know that, but it could be argued that only White or Red have answers to the little guys. Instead of printing a throwback to Tividar, how about printing some cards in different colors that allow other colors to handle goblin swarms?

All the while, Wizards is working so hard to make Type 2 so "safe" that they end up not thinking about what needs to be done in Eternal formats - who cares, anyway, it's not like they are making any money off those formats... sigh. Cards that are standard-safe can't easily trickle down to Eternal formats.

What's killing Legacy is that its too hard to find an event. I've played since '95, and I have a full schedule now. I want to play when I can play, and that means Standard. Plus the cards are too hard for new players to get. And why would they? That means less meta and less innovation.

I have started to hate how Wizards keeps T2 'safe' since Ravnica. But its too early to judge Time Spiral for legacy. What did Kamigawa really give to Legacy anyway? Not a lot for 3 blocks. And I think its a tall order to make cards that affect Legacy in a relevant way, while not warping Standard. They had this magic touch with Vial, Chalice of the Void, Loam, Trinisphere, and Bob, but its hard to do. Also Counterbalance shouldn't be overlooked for its potential. The format, compared to standard, is full of absolutely broken cards. So not many new ones will make the cut. To give TS some credit, the creation of Split Second is a good tool for all formats.

Its the Lackey that makes goblins absurd, not the Vial. Vial is more of a win more, that other decks need to be still be playable.

[Isamaru]

Yes, no events is also contributing to the death of the format.

Well I sort of forgot about Counterbalance when writing off Coldsnap (it's an actually new card idea that they designed well, but there isn't much more of this type of thing going on post-Ravnica). Okay, so we can name about 10 cards from post-Ravnica for Legacy - I don't think whether its so much the power level as it is the main problem of not making new ideas, but doing throwbacks instead. (How about instead of throwbacks, people just play the old cards themselves in a format where they're legal!?)

And let's be honest, the best way to neuter the deck (if it even needs to be) without killing several other strategies in the process is to ban Lacky, as it is the one of the two that is most specific when contributing to the brokeness of Goblins. But is Goblins really that dominant?

[Virel]

Neither Lacky or Vial should be banned in Legacy, neither are the real power in Goblins. Ringleader is the most powerful card in the deck as it refills the Goblin players hand after getting Wrath'd, StP'd, Clasm'd or whatever.

I've slaughtered Legacy Goblins with a Type 2 RW Control deck many times it was an RW control deck very much like RW Rifter. The Legacy Goblin player whined about how it wasn't a fair match that he had to deal with Pryoclasm, WoG, Helix, Story Circle etc. Friend of mine has beat Legacy Goblins with Type 2 Gruul several times. Type 2 Snow White can give Legacy Goblins a total fit. I really don't see how Legacy Goblins can be all that over powering when three Type 2 decks can give them fits.

With the Legacy card pool Goblins can be beat. There isn't any real reason to ban any card in Legacy at the moment. Even Reset should stay in the format.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

Originally Posted by Virel

Neither Lacky or Vial should be banned in Legacy, neither are the real power in Goblins. Ringleader is the most powerful card in the deck as it refills the Goblin players hand after getting Wrath'd, StP'd, Clasm'd or whatever.

I've slaughtered Legacy Goblins with a Type 2 RW Control deck many times it was an RW control deck very much like RW Rifter. The Legacy Goblin player whined about how it wasn't a fair match that he had to deal with Pryoclasm, WoG, Helix, Story Circle etc. Friend of mine has beat Legacy Goblins with Type 2 Gruul several times. Type 2 Snow White can give Legacy Goblins a total fit. I really don't see how Legacy Goblins can be all that over powering when three Type 2 decks can give them fits.

With the Legacy card pool Goblins can be beat. There isn't any real reason to ban any card in Legacy at the moment. Even Reset should stay in the format.

Legacy Goblins is WAY more consistent than any T2 deck. The deck kills on turn 3 with a good draw, turn 4 with an average draw. And it can go late game. I could see these decks being problematic with a pefect draw, and on the play, but they really don't have the consistency of Gobos. And being all geared up to beat aggro doesn't mean you have a chance vs the control and combo in Legacy. Legacy goblins, while disruptable, wins so fast it can compete with other legacy decks. Its not a relevant comparison.

[Kernal Kudzu]

Neither Lacky or Vial should be banned in Legacy, neither are the real power in Goblins. Ringleader is the most powerful card in the deck as it refills the Goblin players hand after getting Wrath'd, StP'd, Clasm'd or whatever.

I tested with Finn for this. I don't know if he did other testing as well, but what he told me last week was that after removing 4 Lackeys and testing (with 56 cards I think), then trying the same with Piledriver, Warchief, Ringleader, Aether Vial, etc. that the card that hurt Goblins most was Aether Vial by far. The Ringleaders just sat in your hand if the Lackey got killed.

I have to assume this is his point. I wish he would have included stats cuz' ya know he has them.

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Kernal Kudzu

I tested with Finn for this. I don't know if he did other testing as well, but what he told me last week was that after removing 4 Lackeys and testing (with 56 cards I think), then trying the same with Piledriver, Warchief, Ringleader, Aether Vial, etc. that the card that hurt Goblins most was Aether Vial by far. The Ringleaders just sat in your hand if the Lackey got killed.

I have to assume this is his point. I wish he would have included stats cuz' ya know he has them.

This much is obvious, Vial is the best card in the deck (and hence the only non-Goblin to be included). It allows the manahungry deck to actually function with mere 26 slots spent on mana. It's fairly easy to destroy still though, and there are always those 4 Forces that'll stop it in 40% of the games.

[Finn]

When Finn showed me this article for the first time, though I was biased, I immediately had this opinion, and I'm glad you agree. After I voiced the downsides for other decks trying to compete with goblins that use the vial to Finn, I asked him to include a short "Devil's Advocate" paragraph at the end of the article, but it looks like he didn't end up doing so.

Yeah. Sorry about that, SJ. I juggled that idea around in my head for a good long time after reading your thoughts before finally deciding not to include any opposing view, as it would have weakened the purpose of the article too much. Thank you again for the insight.