Planar Chaos in Legacy

CynicalSquirrel · 02-06-2007, 11:05 PM

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Planar Chaos in Legacy. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

gamermk · 02-07-2007, 12:24 AM

Informative, Interesting read. Red looks very exciting!

Tha Gunslinga · 02-07-2007, 12:31 AM

You don't think that Simian Spirit Guide could be played in Belcher? Or that a deck with heavy discard and land destruction effects, such as BW Confidant, could abuse Extirpate?

Noman Peopled · 02-07-2007, 03:43 AM

Another nice thing about Urborg is that you can use fetchlands to produce mana if you're low on life or have no reason to pop them. Same goes for Ancient Tomb, though you definitely want to be playing black. Als some situations will arise where Urborg fixes your opponent's mana more than yours.

I agree that Extirpate will be mostly used as a sideboard card for the reasons you mentioned. I do however disagree that it's as easily played around by Solidarity as, say, Trickbind or Blessing. You let High Tide resolve; this is the one thing that Solidarity can't comfortably respond to, then Extirpate it, which guarantees your opponent will get through only with some combination of untap effects, Turnabout, Remand, Cunning Wish, and Freeze (which I admit is quite a lot, but not as explosive as it might have been without Extirpate) - or remove something else depending on the situation. Not to mention that you're likely playing a deck whitch can fully support Extirpate, so counters and discard aren't out of the question at all. It's far from being a nail in Solidarity's Coffin but still the highest quality color specific anti-Solidarity card I've seen in a long time.
The combination with discard, though it still doesn't affect board position, should have been mentioned, as player will try it; and if Extirpate is maindeck playable, this is the way to go. Removing a color from a deck seems quite useful to me, though you don't want to rely on it.
Even if Extirpate becomes only a somewhat popular sb card, players will have to build around it when they're planning on resolving multiples of a specific card.

Heh. CounterSliver I also mentioned in my article (German and not out yet, so don't bother). The real question is, can CounterSliver compete with NQG as aggro-control? I think the answer is yes at least in some metagames, as being two-color or including Wastes should help out a lot. Alternatively, eight Muscle Slivers or a better splash. That's four new versions right there.

Calciderm is good, but surely GW Beats has Blastoderm already?

Sunlance should be acceptable in some metagames, but Condemn is equally solid against Goblins while also killing non-white stuff. That said, If I'm playin a deck that even remotely allows it, in a meta where I need more than four Swords, I'm gonna go with red for burn or black for Rits/Plagues probably.
I refrained from mentioning it in my article, as it's obviously a solid card, with merits just as obvious.
And yeah, a deck can have too many answers to Lackey

A few months back there was a discussion about unbanning Hermit Druid. My opinion was and is that it would suck right now because it's susceptible to almost any kind of hate, most notable splash hate aimed at guess what.
The crux, of course, is that a Druid Deck needs Druid, while Magus of the Bazaar - being equally vulnerable - is a supporting element. Still, if you don't want to get it destroyed fast, you'd better be playing better targets or solid counterbackup. Which means you have less slots to benefit from the discard.
I can't see it in a reanimator deck, though. Bazaar is only really good with Squee, dredge, and Welder; reanimator tends to lose card advantage rather fast when disrupted and Survival seems far superior to Magus of the Bazaar in all aspects but color.

Lavacore Elemental is even more situational than Mogg Flunkies, and equally easy to kill. If it was 4/4, I could imagine it being played, but it'd still be too slow against Goblins. What's more, it would get you an attacker when you need a blocker far too often in other matchups (and generelly does nothing when you happen to be in defense mode). That you need to play it before attacking doesn't help either.

Regarding Sulfur Elemental: the only creature deck with pro-red critters seems to be AS, which has SoFaI, Jitte, and Swords (okay, and Boros, which has burn). Plus, the first one only pumps most of their guys. Even if you happen to get two through, there are still 6/3 lifegaining Angels and SoFaI'd 6/2s to account for (and, in some versions, Serra's Avengers).

Blood Knight I found underwhelming at first, but it still is in the top three of red two-drops. While I can't see it nerfing white like white is nerfing red (mostly due to the fact that they have at least eight pro-reds plus Mothers plus SoFaI), unblockability against them is solid in the early stage of the game, as is blocking MM's all day long, and immunity to Swords is nothing if not nice. Add first strike and it can fend of Goblins until they have found Incinerator. Still, I have a hard time picturing the right deck for it; mono-R seems to be better off with burn.
I actually thought of porting Boros to Legacy as well as playing Blood Knight in Standard Boros, but somehow I failed to make the connection. Guess I'm not perfect after all

Reckless Wurm is good but what we need is better outlets for RG Madness. Also, 4/4s for three that need specific outlets don't seem too impressive when compared to mana-producing 4/4s for two that need some cantrips. Not to say Madness isn't competitive at all (instant-speed fat and imunity to gy removal), but GR especially lacks the outlets.

Simian Spirit Guide will be used in combo decks that have more speed than consistency and disruption. Note that while you can't play Tinder Wall off of it, you can play Rite of Flame, so cutting green in Belcher altogether becomes a real possibility (ESG and Land Grant aren't green). Oh, and surprise REBs are nice too.
A red Stompy is possible, I guess, but Lotus Petal didn't seem to spawn anything like that, and green isn't splash-hated as much as well as having more efficient creatures.

From my experience with Stompy, even reaching three mana isn't a given. I'd rather be able to play two pump spells than Gaea's Anthem, or be able to regenerate Boa. All the spot removal right now means you probably won't get more damage out of Gaea's Anthem than out of a pump spell, even if you can play it turn three (Plant Elemental doesn't help). In any case, Stompy sucks outside of combo/control metagames unprepared for it, which are nowhere to be seen.

Groundbreaker is indeed in a color that needs it more, but can it really use it more? No burn to remove blockers or go to the dome (though you can team it with pump, playing both on the same turn is problematic). Even then, Groundbreaker is hardly better than Ball Lightning is, and it's just a highly risky play right now.
Say you play Elves turn one; turn two Groundbreaker (six damage), turn three attack with Elves (seven), cast Witness; turn four Groundbreaker, attack with everything (sixteen). Possibly some pump or a creature or two more by using Chrome Mox instead of Lawnmowers. Respectable, but nothing to be really afraid of, especially with the plethora of hate spells ranging from first strikers to Daze. It's an unfavorable trade for your opponent most of the time, but quite unlikely to go smoothly.
*goes tinker with Unearth regardless*

I'm with you on Harmonize. Just trying to make the mana to play it in big mana Wildfire more consistent. Be warned, though; it sucks to have it early instead of a board-relevant spell.

Radha is one of those cards that need a highly specific deck. You really want to build around her, but you probably don't want her as a four of, not to mention it wouldn't be consistent enough even then. I guess what we're looking for is a creature deck that works without the mana boost but benefits from it (in this case, plays many relevant instants and abilities for which RR can be used). This also has to be advantegous enough to warrant playing her over something that produces less mana faster or can kill 2/2s in combat.

There are some cards I think you missed, like Magus of the Tabernacle (for Stax-like decks), Mire Boa (Stompy again), Stingscourger for Goblins in some metagames, and Rough // Tumble (a Pyroclasm by another name, in case Meddling Mage asks, or you can actually afford the mana - my Wildfire wish-board, for example).

//Edit: damn, so many dumb mistakes corrected, I must've slept too little.

Kernal Kudzu · 02-07-2007, 06:59 AM

I wish you would have duiscussed Stonecloaker. You have to love reusable graveyard hate that doesn't cost a spot in the deck.

Belgareth · 02-07-2007, 10:45 AM

Nice article cs

Though timespiral actually brought empty the warrens and dread return ( 2 cards that are both seeing use in different decks with promising results).

Simian spirit guide is showing up in belcher decks and helps them get a lot more consistency.

Sapphire Tri · 02-07-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Simian spirit guide is showing up in belcher decks and helps them get a lot more consistency.

It can't be showing up yet as its not legal for play yet. testing really doesn't count till its legal and starts to actually show up in events. To speculate only goes so far...

Avatar of Kokusho · 02-07-2007, 12:39 PM

Good article, but as I have told you before, I disagree somewhat on your assessment of Extirpate. It is NOT the ultimate answer, but it can make a horrible matchup a little bit better.

As for Damnation making a splash, we'll see. Black already had access to pretty much all the kill it could ever want or need, but Wrath of God is still Wrath of God, and Damnation's a heck of a lot better against Threshold than Infest is.

On Siimian Spirit Guide: Could be useful for Belcher decks, but in my experience they are pretty random anyway. Kobold decks that use Goblin Bombardment may get a slight boost, though it doesn't eliminate the need for a single green to cast the Glimpse.

All in all, a good read.

CynicalSquirrel · 02-07-2007, 02:50 PM

The reason I didn't mention SSG being played in Belcher is that I find Belcher to be a horrible deck, and even with the proper acceleration the card itself is far too vulnerable to ever be the centerpiece of a tier one deck.

I also realize some of the cards I mention were kind of weird, mostly Sunlance and Sulfur Elemental, but I felt that naming every card that might have a chance would work.

As for Stonecloaker, I just blanked out. It probably should have been on there.

Noman Peopled · 02-07-2007, 03:19 PM

Stonecloaker might become very useful once decks using specific cards in their graveyards gain more prominence. Right now, I prefer quantity removal over quality removal except in special cases.

vroman · 02-08-2007, 11:00 AM

in playing online, so far Ive seen
-stonecloaker in monowhite aggro
-red spirit guide in belcher
-sinew sliver in counter-sliver and teamed w muscle sliver in rogue GWU threshold.
-magus of the bazaar in a very bad ichorid deck
-blood knight in mono red burn/aggro
-extirpate in WB disruption decks

damnation and tomb of yawgmoth have made zero appearances so far. massacre/infest/perish/natures ruin/virtues ruin are all cheaper and effective enough.

Noman Peopled · 02-08-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vroman

in playing online, so far Ive seen
-stonecloaker in monowhite aggro
-red spirit guide in belcher
-sinew sliver in counter-sliver and teamed w muscle sliver in rogue GWU threshold.
-magus of the bazaar in a very bad ichorid deck
-blood knight in mono red burn/aggro
-extirpate in WB disruption decks

damnation and tomb of yawgmoth have made zero appearances so far. massacre/infest/perish/natures ruin/virtues ruin are all cheaper and effective enough.

I'm predicting Stonecloaker will almost vanish, and CounterSliver hype will die down as well.
I'm not surprised you haven't encountered Damnation or Urborg so far; decks that can use Urborg aren't that popular (most prominent one being Pox), and Damnation, as you said, is out-classed in all but straight classic control and MBC, which either aren't designed yet, sub-par, or unpopular. I'd be surprised if either was patently unplayable, though.

chmoddity · 02-08-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

I'm predicting Stonecloaker will almost vanish, and CounterSliver hype will die down as well...

I can't agree with that. Countersliver is real. It has gained a lot of traction recently. I wouldn't be surprised to see it show up at some majors (well, OK, we don't really get much of those).

And Stonecloaker does a lot of things that are important to aggressive white decks right now. It disrupts card parity when it rescues a creature. It has excellent attacking capabilities. And, combined with Jotun Grunt, provides pretty good graveyard hate pinned on the tail of an otherwise useful card at no extra cost.

Noman Peopled · 02-08-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chmoddity

I can't agree with that. Countersliver is real. It has gained a lot of traction recently. I wouldn't be surprised to see it show up at some majors (well, OK, we don't really get much of those).

And Stonecloaker does a lot of things that are important to aggressive white decks right now. It disrupts card parity when it rescues a creature. It has excellent attacking capabilities. And, combined with Jotun Grunt, provides pretty good graveyard hate pinned on the tail of an otherwise useful card at no extra cost.

I'm not saying I'm not gonna built me one

Still, two drops with useful abilities, comparable power to pumped Slivers and less interdependency strike me as better.

Stonecloaker has a problem in that you can't always use it to its full potential. Saving a creature is good, having to keep three mana open to do so, not so much. Removing a card in a graveyard for three mana seems not very useful against threshold. Loaming Shaman works well by itself and is hardly played, albeit without evasion and in a worse color (its threshold hosing is much stronger, though). The synergy with Grunt is something I admittedly hadn't thought about.

But we'll see anyways, so I'm not going to argue endlessly.

02-06-2007, 11:05 PM	#1
CynicalSquirrel Rumor Mill Grouch MTGS Writer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,687 Blog Entries: 2	Planar Chaos in Legacy This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Planar Chaos in Legacy. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

02-07-2007, 12:24 AM	#2
gamermk The Devil's Advocate MTGS Writer Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,153	Informative, Interesting read. Red looks very exciting! __________________ TrulyBored.com

02-07-2007, 03:43 AM	#4
Noman Peopled Archmage Overlord Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,013	Another nice thing about Urborg is that you can use fetchlands to produce mana if you're low on life or have no reason to pop them. Same goes for Ancient Tomb, though you definitely want to be playing black. Als some situations will arise where Urborg fixes your opponent's mana more than yours. I agree that Extirpate will be mostly used as a sideboard card for the reasons you mentioned. I do however disagree that it's as easily played around by Solidarity as, say, Trickbind or Blessing. You let High Tide resolve; this is the one thing that Solidarity can't comfortably respond to, then Extirpate it, which guarantees your opponent will get through only with some combination of untap effects, Turnabout, Remand, Cunning Wish, and Freeze (which I admit is quite a lot, but not as explosive as it might have been without Extirpate) - or remove something else depending on the situation. Not to mention that you're likely playing a deck whitch can fully support Extirpate, so counters and discard aren't out of the question at all. It's far from being a nail in Solidarity's Coffin but still the highest quality color specific anti-Solidarity card I've seen in a long time. The combination with discard, though it still doesn't affect board position, should have been mentioned, as player will try it; and if Extirpate is maindeck playable, this is the way to go. Removing a color from a deck seems quite useful to me, though you don't want to rely on it. Even if Extirpate becomes only a somewhat popular sb card, players will have to build around it when they're planning on resolving multiples of a specific card. Heh. CounterSliver I also mentioned in my article (German and not out yet, so don't bother). The real question is, can CounterSliver compete with NQG as aggro-control? I think the answer is yes at least in some metagames, as being two-color or including Wastes should help out a lot. Alternatively, eight Muscle Slivers or a better splash. That's four new versions right there. Calciderm is good, but surely GW Beats has Blastoderm already? Sunlance should be acceptable in some metagames, but Condemn is equally solid against Goblins while also killing non-white stuff. That said, If I'm playin a deck that even remotely allows it, in a meta where I need more than four Swords, I'm gonna go with red for burn or black for Rits/Plagues probably. I refrained from mentioning it in my article, as it's obviously a solid card, with merits just as obvious. And yeah, a deck can have too many answers to Lackey A few months back there was a discussion about unbanning Hermit Druid. My opinion was and is that it would suck right now because it's susceptible to almost any kind of hate, most notable splash hate aimed at guess what. The crux, of course, is that a Druid Deck needs Druid, while Magus of the Bazaar - being equally vulnerable - is a supporting element. Still, if you don't want to get it destroyed fast, you'd better be playing better targets or solid counterbackup. Which means you have less slots to benefit from the discard. I can't see it in a reanimator deck, though. Bazaar is only really good with Squee, dredge, and Welder; reanimator tends to lose card advantage rather fast when disrupted and Survival seems far superior to Magus of the Bazaar in all aspects but color. Lavacore Elemental is even more situational than Mogg Flunkies, and equally easy to kill. If it was 4/4, I could imagine it being played, but it'd still be too slow against Goblins. What's more, it would get you an attacker when you need a blocker far too often in other matchups (and generelly does nothing when you happen to be in defense mode). That you need to play it before attacking doesn't help either. Regarding Sulfur Elemental: the only creature deck with pro-red critters seems to be AS, which has SoFaI, Jitte, and Swords (okay, and Boros, which has burn). Plus, the first one only pumps most of their guys. Even if you happen to get two through, there are still 6/3 lifegaining Angels and SoFaI'd 6/2s to account for (and, in some versions, Serra's Avengers). Blood Knight I found underwhelming at first, but it still is in the top three of red two-drops. While I can't see it nerfing white like white is nerfing red (mostly due to the fact that they have at least eight pro-reds plus Mothers plus SoFaI), unblockability against them is solid in the early stage of the game, as is blocking MM's all day long, and immunity to Swords is nothing if not nice. Add first strike and it can fend of Goblins until they have found Incinerator. Still, I have a hard time picturing the right deck for it; mono-R seems to be better off with burn. I actually thought of porting Boros to Legacy as well as playing Blood Knight in Standard Boros, but somehow I failed to make the connection. Guess I'm not perfect after all Reckless Wurm is good but what we need is better outlets for RG Madness. Also, 4/4s for three that need specific outlets don't seem too impressive when compared to mana-producing 4/4s for two that need some cantrips. Not to say Madness isn't competitive at all (instant-speed fat and imunity to gy removal), but GR especially lacks the outlets. Simian Spirit Guide will be used in combo decks that have more speed than consistency and disruption. Note that while you can't play Tinder Wall off of it, you can play Rite of Flame, so cutting green in Belcher altogether becomes a real possibility (ESG and Land Grant aren't green). Oh, and surprise REBs are nice too. A red Stompy is possible, I guess, but Lotus Petal didn't seem to spawn anything like that, and green isn't splash-hated as much as well as having more efficient creatures. From my experience with Stompy, even reaching three mana isn't a given. I'd rather be able to play two pump spells than Gaea's Anthem, or be able to regenerate Boa. All the spot removal right now means you probably won't get more damage out of Gaea's Anthem than out of a pump spell, even if you can play it turn three (Plant Elemental doesn't help). In any case, Stompy sucks outside of combo/control metagames unprepared for it, which are nowhere to be seen. Groundbreaker is indeed in a color that needs it more, but can it really use it more? No burn to remove blockers or go to the dome (though you can team it with pump, playing both on the same turn is problematic). Even then, Groundbreaker is hardly better than Ball Lightning is, and it's just a highly risky play right now. Say you play Elves turn one; turn two Groundbreaker (six damage), turn three attack with Elves (seven), cast Witness; turn four Groundbreaker, attack with everything (sixteen). Possibly some pump or a creature or two more by using Chrome Mox instead of Lawnmowers. Respectable, but nothing to be really afraid of, especially with the plethora of hate spells ranging from first strikers to Daze. It's an unfavorable trade for your opponent most of the time, but quite unlikely to go smoothly. goes tinker with Unearth regardless I'm with you on Harmonize. Just trying to make the mana to play it in big mana Wildfire more consistent. Be warned, though; it sucks to have it early instead of a board-relevant spell. Radha is one of those cards that need a highly specific deck. You really want to build around her, but you probably don't want her as a four of, not to mention it wouldn't be consistent enough even then. I guess what we're looking for is a creature deck that works without the mana boost but benefits from it (in this case, plays many relevant instants and abilities for which RR can be used). This also has to be advantegous enough to warrant playing her over something that produces less mana faster or can kill 2/2s in combat. There are some cards I think you missed, like Magus of the Tabernacle (for Stax-like decks), Mire Boa (Stompy again), Stingscourger for Goblins in some metagames, and Rough // Tumble (a Pyroclasm by another name, in case Meddling Mage asks, or you can actually afford the mana - my Wildfire wish-board, for example). //Edit: damn, so many dumb mistakes corrected, I must've slept too little. Last edited by Noman Peopled : 02-07-2007 at 03:54 AM.

02-08-2007, 11:00 AM	#11
vroman Experienced Mage Join Date: May 2005 Location: St. Louis Posts: 73	in playing online, so far Ive seen -stonecloaker in monowhite aggro -red spirit guide in belcher -sinew sliver in counter-sliver and teamed w muscle sliver in rogue GWU threshold. -magus of the bazaar in a very bad ichorid deck -blood knight in mono red burn/aggro -extirpate in WB disruption decks damnation and tomb of yawgmoth have made zero appearances so far. massacre/infest/perish/natures ruin/virtues ruin are all cheaper and effective enough. __________________ Vote for Ron Paul www.ronpaul.org Vroman altered art cards: http://community.webshots.com/user/rovroman

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02-07-2007, 12:31 AM	#3
Tha Gunslinga Vintage Arms Dealer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA Posts: 1,134	You don't think that Simian Spirit Guide could be played in Belcher? Or that a deck with heavy discard and land destruction effects, such as BW Confidant, could abuse Extirpate?

02-07-2007, 02:50 PM	#9
CynicalSquirrel Rumor Mill Grouch MTGS Writer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,687 Blog Entries: 2	The reason I didn't mention SSG being played in Belcher is that I find Belcher to be a horrible deck, and even with the proper acceleration the card itself is far too vulnerable to ever be the centerpiece of a tier one deck. I also realize some of the cards I mention were kind of weird, mostly Sunlance and Sulfur Elemental, but I felt that naming every card that might have a chance would work. As for Stonecloaker, I just blanked out. It probably should have been on there.

02-07-2007, 03:19 PM	#10
Noman Peopled Archmage Overlord Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,013	Stonecloaker might become very useful once decks using specific cards in their graveyards gain more prominence. Right now, I prefer quantity removal over quality removal except in special cases.