Making Your Have/Want List Work for You

[Yare]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Making Your Have/Want List Work for You. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[JayC]

Fantastic Article, I truly mean that.

This is something I would have written myself had I thought of it - but it hit the nail on the head so kudos!

I perticularly agreed with the fact that an organized list will yield much better results in transactions - I recently listed something in an unorganized manner and it wasn't until I made some revisions that I received some good responses.

I also liked the fact that you called people out for their ridiculous idea of posting 'you send first' rule regardless of ref's or their 'god rules apply' nonense.

Again, well done

[Shaddock]

Didn't even bother to read it. Article seemed like a waste of time. We don't need someone to hold our hand in making a have/want list, thank you very much. I think we're smart enough to figure it out ourselves.

Flame Warning. Don't knock it until you try it.

- RMS Oceanic

[Azerbaijan]

Originally Posted by Shaddock

Didn't even bother to read it.

Awesome - thanks for posting!

You'd think it'd be easy to put together a usable trade thread, but one glance at the trade forum will tell you that, apparently, it's a challenge for some. The article was a decent read, although of course I do not need any help in this regard.

I personally never got the "number your rules" trend. I also don't get the point of saying "God rules" if you then have to follow it up by explaining what "God rules" means.

Overall, it was a good read.

[Streetz]

Shaddock, he brings up quite a few valid points. If you are a trader, which I assume you aren't, you should read it. I just started trading on my site a few months ago and I have had several perfect trades. Perhaps it is because I have abided by some of the points in this article.

Of course, I had those established before reading, not everyone does.

[Vampyr]

Good article. I enjoyed it. I have one comment and two disagreements.

My comment is that someone could have the most perfectly laid out rules and Have/Want list, but this doesn't mean someone is going to read the rules. I've found that's one of the most frustrating things about trading online(right after having trade offers ignored rather than replied to). My preference for cards are non-foil, black bordered, which I state in my rules, plus in my Want list. But I still get offers that include foiled and/or white bordered cards. Or sometimes not even specified. I don't get upset over such things, but it does slow the trading process down when I have to reply back to confirm edition and such. Having rules only helps when people actually read them.

First disagreement is on hyperlinks. I started playing when The Dark was out, and took a break from Weatherlight to Invasion. There is no way I can know every rare. I don't know how many times I've been searching through lists and saw a listed card I didn't recognize. If the card is hyperlinked, hey it's an easy click to find out what it is. If I like it, that trader just got an extra offer. If the card isn't hyperlinked in that case, I don't stop searching and just move on. If the hyperlinks are set up properly, I believe they can only help a trader and far outweigh looking "cluttered."

Second disagreement is on the use of spoilers. In some cases, I can see where they're unnecessary. But in my opinion, and I know I don't have the largest collection on MTGSalvation, listing 3000+ cards in a blanket list makes the page look unprofessional. I tried to tidy up things, allow people to go to what section they know they're looking for cards from. This prompts a viewer to look at more of my list, rather than having them resort to the Ctrl+F function, search for a specific card, not see it and move on. If a trader feels clicking on a spoiler button takes too long, then that trader wasn't going to go through my whole list to begin with.

Again, good article and I enjoyed reading it.

[Noman Peopled]

I started reading with interest, but only skimmed over the last few paragraphs. Some guidelines you set up are no-brainers everybody should have figured out (but many haven't), and the rest is personal preference (like linking).

That said, the article was a tad boring to me but is (unfortunately) far from irrelevant and also (fortunately) far from bad. And neither does it apply to online trading only. I don't how many wants I overlooked while skimming through trade binders full of stuff "somebody might want".
Of course, many people (like me) want to include stuff "somebody might want", because, well, somebody might want that stuff. I also like giving solid commons that every experienced player has anyways to inexperienced players who don't. They make good filler as well. Also, I often get annoyed when players present me with a minimalist binder full of money rares I have or don't want when I'm looking for cards that aren't high in demand. (I fondly remember one time before an FNM; a guy was frantically looking for Tin-Street Hooligan. Twenty players were present, and he might as well have been looking for a playset of Chars.)
In that vein, I sort by demand (not playability) first, by color second, by type third, by mana cost fourth. In threads, it's usually better to go by alphabetic order.

What I always like to do is go over the rules again before finalizing the deal, making sure they were read an understood.

Finally, my mantra is to neither be arrogant, no matter what I say, nor get pissed, no matter what they say, in the process of building the deal. Don't be afraid to cancel a deal that seems disadvantageous or suspect, and don't be bitter when the other guy does. (This is far worse in rl. Don't pester anyone who said he doesn't want to trade. Seriously. Bad people will come to your house.) If the cards that arrive don't mach the description, consider an error first and malevolence second. Personally, if something is wrong on my end (it has happened), I give my trading partner the option of cancelling the deal (me paying for all expenses) and/or of compensating him some other way for the delay/lower-than-expected quality/wrong card version. For example, I once took about two weeks to send some cards (oversight; my fault entirely). They were UGM cards, so I put some UGM cards extra in the envelope. This kind of self-discipline also helps me to avoid such failures, and inspect the cards closely before sending them (I misjudged the quality of cards on several occasions). Not to mention the boon to your reputation/references.

I'd like to see such an article on ebay trading, though.

[RogueOliphant]

Very nice article! I think you succeeded n making the article work for people in the same way you hope to make people's h/w list work; clear, concise, easily accessible, and informative. Great job!

As far as my own two cents, I agree with Vampyr on the hyperlink issue. I think that hyperlinks are almost a necessity these days, for basically the same reasons he mentioned. I would also add, however, that the MTGS hyperlink to a card includes a link to the MOTL prices for that card, which can be a helpful tool if you're trying to figure out if a card is or is not in your price range.

On the topic of spoilers, though, I have to respectfully disagree with Vampyr. Although I have one of the largest collections listed on Salvation I have found that the use of spoilers complicates, not simplifies, the trading process. Besides the fact that people just get frustrated having to open and close various spoilers, some people just have problems actually getting them to work, which obviously hinders the trading process. Also, many people who use spoilers have a tendency to misuse the spoilers in terms of what they include as spoiler groups. I don't want to search your list by color if all you have in green is 3x City of Solitude. If said spoiler list was instead to be sorted by sets or blocks, I might be more inclined to peruse through it, skipping Visions and 3x City altogether. If you don't have a big list, don't do the spoilers, and if you have a big enough list to use them be sure to think hard about how you want to organize your spoilers before you go hiding everything in the wrong place. I don't think anyone has ever looked at my list and thought that it was hard to read and all I use are decktags, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Finally, I just wanted to let everyone know that if you want another example of what a perfectly laid out list looks like, a link is in my sig.

[Jaelan]

Speaking of decktags (as RogueOliphant mentioned), I'm curious on what the consensus is on using those, as opposed to spoiler tags (which I agree are more trouble than they are worth).

Great article You've inspired me to clean up my list (even though I'm following most of that criteria already).

[G0-DRAW]

I have seen an area where you can trade here. While not paying too close of attention to the many traders I did agree with this article's statement that people's Wants/Haves lists are lacking in good organization, which lead me to not want to use this feature on MTGSalvation. Plus I noticed a few rippers and their alternate names. Can MTGSalvation create a way to paypal cards here (kind of like cardshark) so if we find a seller we can have a safe transaction with them and make MTGSalvation some money?

[JayC]

Originally Posted by G0-DRAW

I have seen an area where you can trade here. While not paying too close of attention to the many traders I did agree with this article's statement that people's Wants/Haves lists are lacking in good organization, which lead me to not want to use this feature on MTGSalvation. Plus I noticed a few rippers and their alternate names. Can MTGSalvation create a way to paypal cards here (kind of like cardshark) so if we find a seller we can have a safe transaction with them and make MTGSalvation some money?

Are you suggesting people pay a small fee to the site in order to secure trades and transactions? I really don't think that idea will work.

You will never get ripped if you use common sense and follow the rules and suggestions of the site - it's when you don't you get burned, simple as that.

As for the comments regarding the 'obvious' points of the article - tell that to a good 20 - 40% of the traders here who obviously don't know this to be obvious information

[Yare]

I want to thank you guys for your comments and feedback; I really appreciate it! I will reply as best as I can regarding everything I've seen so far...

Originally Posted by JayC

Fantastic Article, I truly mean that.

This is something I would have written myself had I thought of it - but it hit the nail on the head so kudos!

Again, well done

Thanks again for your compliments. I am glad that you liked this article so much.

Originally Posted by Azerbaijan

Awesome - thanks for posting!

You'd think it'd be easy to put together a usable trade thread, but one glance at the trade forum will tell you that, apparently, it's a challenge for some. The article was a decent read, although of course I do not need any help in this regard.

I personally never got the "number your rules" trend. I also don't get the point of saying "God rules" if you then have to follow it up by explaining what "God rules" means.

Overall, it was a good read.

I have to admit I was tempted to remove the "number your rules" suggestion, but I felt like it would be better to leave it in than take it out (which was my general policy with this article). Ultimately, I guess the numbers accentuate line breaks, which might somehow make the rules more appealing to read than if they weren't numbered. That being said, I'm not going to crucify anyone for not numbering their rules.

I framed the "god rules" rule in the way I did so that readers would have an idea of what I'm talking about. If I had listed it as "rule specifying when the trade is final/completed" this might have been as effective, but people then might have just interpreted this as meaning just putting "god rules apply" is acceptable, when in fact it really isn't. I suppose it was a roundabout way of killing two birds with one stone.

Thank you for your compliment.

Originally Posted by Streetz

Of course, I had those established before reading, not everyone does.

I want to emphasize that the article wasn't necessarily meant to imply that everybody should completely overhaul their entire lists. Instead, those who had existing lists could take a tip here and a tip there and significantly improve the quality of their lists (especially if they added sorting).

Thank you for your comment.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Good article. I enjoyed it. I have one comment and two disagreements.

My comment is that someone could have the most perfectly laid out rules and Have/Want list, but this doesn't mean someone is going to read the rules. I've found that's one of the most frustrating things about trading online(right after having trade offers ignored rather than replied to). My preference for cards are non-foil, black bordered, which I state in my rules, plus in my Want list. But I still get offers that include foiled and/or white bordered cards. Or sometimes not even specified. I don't get upset over such things, but it does slow the trading process down when I have to reply back to confirm edition and such. Having rules only helps when people actually read them.

First disagreement is on hyperlinks. I started playing when The Dark was out, and took a break from Weatherlight to Invasion. There is no way I can know every rare. I don't know how many times I've been searching through lists and saw a listed card I didn't recognize. If the card is hyperlinked, hey it's an easy click to find out what it is. If I like it, that trader just got an extra offer. If the card isn't hyperlinked in that case, I don't stop searching and just move on. If the hyperlinks are set up properly, I believe they can only help a trader and far outweigh looking "cluttered."

Second disagreement is on the use of spoilers. In some cases, I can see where they're unnecessary. But in my opinion, and I know I don't have the largest collection on MTGSalvation, listing 3000+ cards in a blanket list makes the page look unprofessional. I tried to tidy up things, allow people to go to what section they know they're looking for cards from. This prompts a viewer to look at more of my list, rather than having them resort to the Ctrl+F function, search for a specific card, not see it and move on. If a trader feels clicking on a spoiler button takes too long, then that trader wasn't going to go through my whole list to begin with.

Again, good article and I enjoyed reading it.

Thank you for your detailed and well articulated post.

Regarding people reading the rules, this is definitely an issue. As I stated above, part of the reason I number rules is to try to encourage people to read them. Maybe this is just a jedi mind trick on my part and there is no actual gain to be had. Regarding preferences for particular cards, people may just offer you what they have rather than what you want. I mean, I can't offer you a BB Brainstorm if all I have is fifth edition. I guess it's kind of the "I want to help me, not you" mentality which you almost have to take into trading. That being said, I can understand your frustration.

Regarding hyperlinks, after reading your comment and what a few others have said, I may be wrong on this point. I know that when I search lists, I know exactly what I'm looking for and there is very, very little else that I am willing to go after. Consequently, I typically don't look up cards when I search; if I don't know what it is, then I don't need it. That being said, you have brought to my attention that there are people out there who either aren't sure what they want or aren't sure about what all the cards they are concerned about (namely, within their particular format) do. Consequently, the hyperlinks can be an improvement. So, I'm not going to berate anybody if they want to support hyperlinks, as I can definitely see the point. The one thing I would caution against, though, is to make sure that hyperlinks lead to the correct printing of the card (ESPECIALLY if people aren't labeling their expansions as I suggest). If people don't do this, there could be issues regarding what version of a card a person has.

Regarding spoilers, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree concerning their use. For one, the buttons can get in the way and make CTRL+F much less appealing (I actually meant to mention "you can use CTRL+F to search quickly" as a "rule" but forgot), especially if there are numerous spoiler buttons to press (which is likely if a list is very, very long). Additionally, as RogueOliphant brought up (and I didn't think of this), spoilers can malfunction. Just yesterday I was on a list and was greeted by blank spoilers, the list being completely devoid of any information. While I can see the point regarding "find, not here, move on," I think the advantages of no spoilers outweigh the advantages of spoilers.

As I said before, thank you very much for your thoughts.

Originally Posted by Noman Peopled

I started reading with interest, but only skimmed over the last few paragraphs. Some guidelines you set up are no-brainers everybody should have figured out (but many haven't), and the rest is personal preference (like linking).

That said, the article was a tad boring to me but is (unfortunately) far from irrelevant and also (fortunately) far from bad. And neither does it apply to online trading only.

I'd like to see such an article on ebay trading, though.

I feel the point of the article was to point out things that "should be obvious, but apparently are not." There are so, SO many lists that are unsorted that it is absurd.

Regarding the article being boring, I'll concede that it was definitely more on the "guide/informative" side and less on the "entertaining" side. However, I'm not sure how else you would do this. I just felt there was a HUGE need to have a codified article spelling out everything that people need to be aware of when making their lists.

Real life binders are a little trickier because you can't really "find" short of asking the owner of the binder what he's got (with which you can have some success, to be sure). Excessively huge binders can be bad for a bunch of reasons, such as being a pain to carry around, the liability of having them stolen, and the deterrence effect it may have on smaller traders (i.e., "I've already got everything, what could you possibly give me?"). Somehow I feel the "super trader vs. small trader" thing just isn't as big online, although I'm not sure why.

What do you have in mind regarding an eBay article? I am uncertain concerning what you precisely mean.

Thank you for your comments.

Originally Posted by RogueOliphant

Very nice article! I think you succeeded n making the article work for people in the same way you hope to make people's h/w list work; clear, concise, easily accessible, and informative. Great job!

As far as my own two cents, I agree with Vampyr on the hyperlink issue...

On the topic of spoilers, though, I have to respectfully disagree with Vampyr...

Finally, I just wanted to let everyone know that if you want another example of what a perfectly laid out list looks like, a link is in my sig.

For one reason or another, I wasn't aware of the MOTL price thing with hyperlinks on MTGS. This is yet another reason to use hyperlinks. Further discussion regarding hyperlinks and spoilers can be seen above in my reply to Vampyr.

Thank you for your compliments and comments!

Originally Posted by Jaelan

Great article You've inspired me to clean up my list (even though I'm following most of that criteria already).

I'm glad that you've decided to clean your list up; that was the whole point of my article.

Originally Posted by JayC

As for the comments regarding the 'obvious' points of the article - tell that to a good 20 - 40% of the traders here who obviously don't know this to be obvious information

That was really the whole point of the article. Thank you for articulating it.

[magicmaster55]

Great article, I skimmed through some of it but it does seem like a rather good read for anyone starting out in trading online.

[Ice T]

Great article Yare!

I have to say, if every new trader one this site read this, life would be soooo much easier.

No love for my spoiler tags?

[Trainswalker09]

Good article, we were well overdue for one like this. Most traders had to use the lists of others to make rules (my friend actually copypasted my rules) and now we may see cleaner lists aroudn hurr. nice job.