I still think the white splash is pretty important. Pull from eternity keeps you from getting butchered by Detritivore, and COP red is *some* good against gruul, espescially if they were counting on using Solifuge to be effective (and they were).
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
I agree that this deck really does need the white splash to combat not only Detritivore but Aeon Chronicler as well. Both cards only seem to be increasing in popularity and both if left unchecked can cause some major headaches for this deck.
I just realized. Mycoloth perfectly demonstrates the devour mechanic.
Mycoloth: NOMNOMNOM on Dragon Fodder.
One turn later, 1/1 turds come out.
Quote from kalkris »
btw i did it because i could. i was bored and decided to let my little med-free spree go ahead. I am bipolar, explaining all the drama that ensued after. I have problems.
Quote from ShadowWaveInc. »
Jon Finkel can simply walk into Mordor.
"When an artist dies the world loses two lives, that of the artist and that of his unfinished work."
I personally love the white splash. Not only dose it make it easier to run utillity lands but tolaria west is used to tutor for the white source if you need 1.
The white splash is very important. I didn't think about the COP red though. How many do you play in the SB? This would have helped me out a ton at regionals.
Pull is the best weapon this deck has against detretivore. As for Chronicler I think that we have other ways to deal and usually I have one as well and it is usually bigger than theirs. Just my opinion.
Ah, new thread. Since I just started testing and playing this deck a week before regionals I'll take this as a prime opportunity to join the discussion. Jiaozy and a couple of others may remember me from the old Firemane Control thread last summer (college really cuts into having time to play).
On to the relevant stuff....
About two days into testing we ditched the white splash and some of the slower non-basics (the ones that mean you have a hard time pacing gruul if you're stuck playing them early a.k.a. Dimir Aquaducts) in favor of 12 basic lands.
They rocked.
Obvious amusement came from watching a Gruul player at Regionals stare at a board of basics while holding a pair of Blood Moons from his sideboard in game 2. The real reason we ditched the white splash came from studying why it worked so well in block constructed. They ran 4 Prismatic Lense and 4 Terramorphic Expanse. A third turn Terramorphic is much easier to accomplish than a third turn transmute of Tolaria West. While I love Tolaria West it seems to be to slow of a method to use for white mana that you're rellying on.
Consider how these two different configurations for white mana playout:
In block constructed the only changes made were for the Plains and Calciform Pools since they were already running the mana fixers (That's somethings like an easy 12 ways to get white mana). In T2 however we don't have the luxury of running most of the block constructed fixers since the concensus seems to be that they're so slow. To bad Tolaria is slower and with such a setup you have somewhere around 8 white sources (maybe 10 if you use Hallowed Fountains in place of basics and then you open yourself up even further to Blood Moon effects).
I see no point in weakening the manabase against nonbasic hate in order to strengthen the deck against it. It seems counter productive but if you're determined to do this [:o] I'd be inclined to try Terramorphic Expanse over Tolaria West [/:o] simply so you could still play one of your two mana spells on turn three instead of doing nothing while digging for COP: Red mana. However if you're just playing white for Pull From Eternity against control Tolaria seems more feasible. I just don't like the sorcery speed of it and tapping three for it during a mainphase. It seems like to good of an opportunity for a control opponent to pass up in the midgame. In which case Terramophic Expanse still seems to have the tempo edge.
As far as Aeon Chronicler goes a better combat strategy against him would seem to be putting yourself on equal footing with the decks running multiples and running multiples of your own. Granted I haven't tested such a theory yet but it seems solid enough as a starting point assuming you don't get overpowered with mana from something like Korlash's discard ability. Even then I'm unsure whether the scales would be tipped that dramatically off of just multiple Korlash activations.
Feel free to rip my post apart guys. I've been severely out of practice for quite a while now.
Standart :
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Five Color Control :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:symu::symb: Shadowmage Prowler :symu::symb:
:symg::symb: Elves :symg::symb:
Extended :
:symw::symu:Control Freak:symw::symu:
:symu::symg:Isao's Cloak:symu::symg:
The white splash is important because one card will be relevant in the future meta. Seth Tiger.
Elaborate please?
Do you mean we should run Seht's Tiger (Running the Tiger to combat Dragonstorm seems like overkill against an already decent matchup and would completely warp our mana base.) or do you mean it will warp the format to the point where Pull From Eternity and COP: Red will be neccasary to combat it?
Anyways, I've been testing the Gruul/Rakdos matchups (both are quite hard as they both run tons of burn, quick creatures, and the infamous Blood Moon) alot more over the past couple weeks, and like Jiaozy have realized that Karstens manabase is awesome for fighting said decks.
As for the White Splash, I don't find it's needed, between 11+ MD basics, and the fact that the Gruul/Rakdos matchups aren't as hard as they are made out to be, we don't need to screw up the manabase just for COP: red or Pull from Eternity.
peace
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Quote from sumweeaboo »
Attach a drill to your crotch and pierce the heavens!
Oh, I remember you from the Firemane thread (I loved that deck)! And I know the benefits of the Aquaducts. I like them actually and they went back in after regionals. We ran 25 lands there with an unholy number of basics and, in my opinion it was the right call for the metagame we went into. There was sooooo much Gruul (almost all I played against other than one Pickles deck, one MonoB Rack deck, and some Zoo) and the bouncelands just aren't all that under Bloodmoon so they got cut in anticipation of that. FNM's must F3@|2 them still.
EDIT: They got the cut for basic swamps not more Islands.
This is my current deck. My meta is mostly control with some agro. I would like to add another win con., but I'm not sure what to take out.
Any thoughts?
I was thinking either Aeon Chronicler or Draining Whelk. I'm not sure what's better though.
ATM I'm trying to squeeze Tormod's Crypt out of the SB for more anti-aggro/control cards. Thoughts?
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Most people have stopped running the one Commandeer to search for, as it doesn't help as much as previously thought, most have instead opted to run Willbenders out of the side (with Teferi in play you can search for them and they cost 5 instead of 7...and yes I know about the alternate cost on Commandeer, but the card just isn't needed anymore since Angelfire/UR Tron isn't as prominent).
Other than that, your list is almost a carbon copy of the one I'll be playing tonight...finally picked up an Extirpate from some kid for 6 bucks.
peace
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Quote from sumweeaboo »
Attach a drill to your crotch and pierce the heavens!
I have one Commandeer in my board should I make that a willbender?
PS: Why do people only run thee teachings?
If you run Willbender in your SB (which you probably should), run at least 2, if not 3...in fact, just run 3.
And people only run three teachings because although the card is good, you don't want more than one in your hand usually, and if you have enough mana to where you do need more than one, you can just search for another teachings with your first teachings.
peace
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Quote from sumweeaboo »
Attach a drill to your crotch and pierce the heavens!
I'd take out the Venser for an Aeon Chronicler, not only is it uncounterable drawing (which you can suspend eot with Teferi in play), but it also is another beater that can get potentially huge!
peace
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Quote from sumweeaboo »
Attach a drill to your crotch and pierce the heavens!
Aeon Chronicler has been great for me. Don't forget that you can suspend in response to split second stuff if you have Teferi on the board (i.e. Sudden Death on Teferi).
Just to spark some more discussion... who's running Dralnu himself? I haven't seen a real use for him. Normally, at least to me, he seems to be a win more and I cut him for a maindeck Last Gasp.
And what do you think is the right number of Teferi's and why?
The white splash is very important. I didn't think about the COP red though. How many do you play in the SB? This would have helped me out a ton at regionals.
I've got 3 (in the slot typically occupied by Bottle Gnomes). They also come in against dragonstorm and random red decks.
I've found Teferi just isn't as important now that the mirror is less common. Yeah, it means I've got a disadvantage against other dralnu players... but I'm really good at the mirror. Besides... typically Teferi just gets countered then Extirpated in the mirror anyways.
Dralnu is nice... but with an aggro-heavy metagame I just don't see him as anything except for win-more. Even in a control heavy meta (where he's best) I don't really think he's that much better than Draining Whelk. Really the only time I like him is the mirror... and even there it's iffy.
@ FTW: I'd go -1 Dralnu, -1 Venser. +1 Tombstalker, +1 Draining Whelk. Also, you've got ZERO graveyard hate. Dredge might cause you a few problems with that list.
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
Against Combo decks and pickles it does really well, at least from what I have played, but sometimes it cuts it close against aggro decks. The SB Seht's Tiger is just something I would like to try out against a dragonstorm deck, or even aggro, but have yet to get the chance to experiment with it. I am thinking of adding Dismal Failure to the deck, just because of it's awesomeness (or at the very least sideboarding it) and have found that the 1x Pact of Negation can be useful in some cases :]
Avid EDH player GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas
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This is a sample decklist.
5 Island
2 Swamp
2 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Dreadship Reef
1 Urza's Factory
2 Watery Grave
2 Tolaria West
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Underground River
1 Ghost Quarter
Creatures
1 Aeon Chronicler
1 Dralnu, Lich Lord
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Draining Whelk
1 Skeletal Vampire
1 Seize the Soul
1 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Pact of Negation
2 Think Twice
2 Spell Snare
3 Mystical Teachings
3 Damnation
2 Cancel
4 Rewind
2 Repeal
4 Remand
4 Rune Snag
1 Sudden Death
1 Haunting Hymn
1 Damnation
1 Grim Harvest
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trickbind
1 Helldozer
1 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Shadow of Doubt
1 Commandeer
2 Bottle Gnomes
Mafia Stats
Pull is the best weapon this deck has against detretivore. As for Chronicler I think that we have other ways to deal and usually I have one as well and it is usually bigger than theirs. Just my opinion.
On to the relevant stuff....
About two days into testing we ditched the white splash and some of the slower non-basics (the ones that mean you have a hard time pacing gruul if you're stuck playing them early a.k.a. Dimir Aquaducts) in favor of 12 basic lands.
They rocked.
Obvious amusement came from watching a Gruul player at Regionals stare at a board of basics while holding a pair of Blood Moons from his sideboard in game 2. The real reason we ditched the white splash came from studying why it worked so well in block constructed. They ran 4 Prismatic Lense and 4 Terramorphic Expanse. A third turn Terramorphic is much easier to accomplish than a third turn transmute of Tolaria West. While I love Tolaria West it seems to be to slow of a method to use for white mana that you're rellying on.
Consider how these two different configurations for white mana playout:
Block Constructed Style:
4 Prismatic Lense
4 Terramorphic Expanse
1-2 Plains
2 Calciform Pools
T2 Style:
2-3 Tolaria West
1-2 Plains
2 Calciform Pools
In block constructed the only changes made were for the Plains and Calciform Pools since they were already running the mana fixers (That's somethings like an easy 12 ways to get white mana). In T2 however we don't have the luxury of running most of the block constructed fixers since the concensus seems to be that they're so slow. To bad Tolaria is slower and with such a setup you have somewhere around 8 white sources (maybe 10 if you use Hallowed Fountains in place of basics and then you open yourself up even further to Blood Moon effects).
I see no point in weakening the manabase against nonbasic hate in order to strengthen the deck against it. It seems counter productive but if you're determined to do this [:o] I'd be inclined to try Terramorphic Expanse over Tolaria West [/:o] simply so you could still play one of your two mana spells on turn three instead of doing nothing while digging for COP: Red mana. However if you're just playing white for Pull From Eternity against control Tolaria seems more feasible. I just don't like the sorcery speed of it and tapping three for it during a mainphase. It seems like to good of an opportunity for a control opponent to pass up in the midgame. In which case Terramophic Expanse still seems to have the tempo edge.
As far as Aeon Chronicler goes a better combat strategy against him would seem to be putting yourself on equal footing with the decks running multiples and running multiples of your own. Granted I haven't tested such a theory yet but it seems solid enough as a starting point assuming you don't get overpowered with mana from something like Korlash's discard ability. Even then I'm unsure whether the scales would be tipped that dramatically off of just multiple Korlash activations.
Feel free to rip my post apart guys. I've been severely out of practice for quite a while now.
Grow-A-TogKeeper4 Remand
4 Rune Snag
4 Rewind
3 Spell Snare
1 Cancel
Or 2 Cancel 2 Spell Snare ?
Standart :
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Five Color Control :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:symu::symb: Shadowmage Prowler :symu::symb:
:symg::symb: Elves :symg::symb:
Extended :
:symw::symu:Control Freak:symw::symu:
:symu::symg:Isao's Cloak:symu::symg:
Elaborate please?
Do you mean we should run Seht's Tiger (Running the Tiger to combat Dragonstorm seems like overkill against an already decent matchup and would completely warp our mana base.) or do you mean it will warp the format to the point where Pull From Eternity and COP: Red will be neccasary to combat it?
Grow-A-TogKeeperAnyways, I've been testing the Gruul/Rakdos matchups (both are quite hard as they both run tons of burn, quick creatures, and the infamous Blood Moon) alot more over the past couple weeks, and like Jiaozy have realized that Karstens manabase is awesome for fighting said decks.
As for the White Splash, I don't find it's needed, between 11+ MD basics, and the fact that the Gruul/Rakdos matchups aren't as hard as they are made out to be, we don't need to screw up the manabase just for COP: red or Pull from Eternity.
peace
^-- And this is exactly why these forums are for whiny little babies who can't deal with the fact that they are wrong. So they go cry to a mod. Lawl.
EDIT: They got the cut for basic swamps not more Islands.
Grow-A-TogKeeper6 Snow-Covered Island
5 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Tolaria West
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Watery Grave
4 Dreadship Reef
1 Urza's Factory
1 Mouth of Ronom
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalifr
1 Skeletal Vampire
1 Dralnu, Lich Lord
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Temand
4 Rune Sang
4 Rewind
4 Mystical Teachings
4 Think Twice
3 Damnation
1 Sudden Death
1 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Slaught Pact
1 Damnation
1 Seize the Soul
2 Tendrils of Corruption
3 Bottle Gnomes
1 Commandeer
1 Grim Harvest
1 Trickbind
1 Extirpate
2 Persecute
2 Ghost Quarter
This is my current deck. My meta is mostly control with some agro. I would like to add another win con., but I'm not sure what to take out.
Any thoughts?
I was thinking either Aeon Chronicler or Draining Whelk. I'm not sure what's better though.
2 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
3 Dimir Aqueduct
2 Tolaria West
1 Urza's Factory
3 Dreadship Reef
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dralnu, Lich Lord
1 Skeletal Vampire
3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
4 Remand
4 Rune Snag
3 Spell Snare
2 Repeal
3 Damnation
2 Think Twice
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Extirpate
1 Commandeer
1 Sudden Death
1 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Extirpate
1 Trickbind
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Persecute
1 Spell Snare
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Bottle Gnomes
1 Slaughter Pact
ATM I'm trying to squeeze Tormod's Crypt out of the SB for more anti-aggro/control cards. Thoughts?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Most people have stopped running the one Commandeer to search for, as it doesn't help as much as previously thought, most have instead opted to run Willbenders out of the side (with Teferi in play you can search for them and they cost 5 instead of 7...and yes I know about the alternate cost on Commandeer, but the card just isn't needed anymore since Angelfire/UR Tron isn't as prominent).
Other than that, your list is almost a carbon copy of the one I'll be playing tonight...finally picked up an Extirpate from some kid for 6 bucks.
peace
^-- And this is exactly why these forums are for whiny little babies who can't deal with the fact that they are wrong. So they go cry to a mod. Lawl.
Also, I think you could take one Extirpate out of the side board, two is enough.
I have one Commandeer in my board should I make that a willbender?
PS: Why do people only run thee teachings?
If you run Willbender in your SB (which you probably should), run at least 2, if not 3...in fact, just run 3.
And people only run three teachings because although the card is good, you don't want more than one in your hand usually, and if you have enough mana to where you do need more than one, you can just search for another teachings with your first teachings.
peace
^-- And this is exactly why these forums are for whiny little babies who can't deal with the fact that they are wrong. So they go cry to a mod. Lawl.
It looks like this:
6 Snow-Covered Island
5 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Tolaria West
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Watery Grave
4 Dreadship Reef
1 Urza's Factory
1 Mouth of Ronom
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalifr
1 Skeletal Vampire
1 Dralnu, Lich Lord
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Remand
4 Rune Sang
4 Rewind
3 Mystical Teachings
3 Think Twice
1 Repeal
3 Damnation
1 Sudden Death
1 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Slaught Pact
1 Extirpate
1 Damnation
1 Seize the Soul
1 Tendrils of Corruption
3 Bottle Gnomes
3 Willbender
1 Trickbind
1 Extirpate
2 Persecute
2 Ghost Quarter
Any thoughts?
How about Venser/repeal?
Grow-A-TogKeeperI'd take out the Venser for an Aeon Chronicler, not only is it uncounterable drawing (which you can suspend eot with Teferi in play), but it also is another beater that can get potentially huge!
peace
^-- And this is exactly why these forums are for whiny little babies who can't deal with the fact that they are wrong. So they go cry to a mod. Lawl.
Just to spark some more discussion... who's running Dralnu himself? I haven't seen a real use for him. Normally, at least to me, he seems to be a win more and I cut him for a maindeck Last Gasp.
And what do you think is the right number of Teferi's and why?
Grow-A-TogKeeperI've got 3 (in the slot typically occupied by Bottle Gnomes). They also come in against dragonstorm and random red decks.
Right now my SB is
2 Trickbind
3 Tormods Crypt (will probably go to only 2)
3 COP red
2 Persecute
1 Extirpate - (1 maindeck)
2 Pull from Eternity - (1 maindeck)
1 Tendrils of Corruption
Also, I'm playing 2 Teferi and 0 Dralnu maindeck.
I've found Teferi just isn't as important now that the mirror is less common. Yeah, it means I've got a disadvantage against other dralnu players... but I'm really good at the mirror. Besides... typically Teferi just gets countered then Extirpated in the mirror anyways.
Dralnu is nice... but with an aggro-heavy metagame I just don't see him as anything except for win-more. Even in a control heavy meta (where he's best) I don't really think he's that much better than Draining Whelk. Really the only time I like him is the mirror... and even there it's iffy.
@ FTW: I'd go -1 Dralnu, -1 Venser. +1 Tombstalker, +1 Draining Whelk. Also, you've got ZERO graveyard hate. Dredge might cause you a few problems with that list.
Mafia Stats
Grow-A-TogKeeperIf the biggest problem he's having is DS Trickbinding his COP: Red, then yes, he has success against DS with COP: Red.
In other words, Gigadrowse is the main reason COP: Red sucks ass in the matchup.
peace
^-- And this is exactly why these forums are for whiny little babies who can't deal with the fact that they are wrong. So they go cry to a mod. Lawl.
1 Aeon Chronicler
2 Draining Whelk
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
//Spells
4 Cancel
3 Careful Consideration
4 Damnation
1 Disenchant
2 Extirpate
1 Haunting Hymn
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Pact of Negation
2 Sudden Death
2 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Teferi's Moat
1 Temporal Isolation
//Artifacts
4 Prismatic Lens
//Lands
2 Calciform Pools
4 Dreadship Reef
8 Island
1 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Urza's Factory
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Seht's Tiger
3 Willbender
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Sudden Death
2 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Teferi's Moat
2 Plains
Against Combo decks and pickles it does really well, at least from what I have played, but sometimes it cuts it close against aggro decks. The SB Seht's Tiger is just something I would like to try out against a dragonstorm deck, or even aggro, but have yet to get the chance to experiment with it. I am thinking of adding Dismal Failure to the deck, just because of it's awesomeness (or at the very least sideboarding it) and have found that the 1x Pact of Negation can be useful in some cases :]
GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth
WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother
BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator
BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas