What Next For Legacy?: Combo Socks and Talking Elves

[Finn]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, What Next For Legacy?: Combo Socks and Talking Elves. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[arcane7828]

Entertaining read Finn



... the elf part was fun, but ... a little confusing, the part about the addict and then the innovating past ideas thing

[The_second_try]

I'm quite confused about this socks concept. It is quite clear what the engine cards are, but it is unclear to me what the kill cards are in non-storm combo.
How do you apply the concept to a deck like aluren or survival?

Or to this, my homebrew combo-midrange hybrid:

Homebrew Concoction

4birds of paradise 3llanowar elves 2elves of deep shadow 2carrion feeder 4wall of roots 1saffi eriksdotter 3phyrexian ghoul 3nantuko husk 1body snatcher 1karmic guide 1kiki-jiki, mirror breaker 2protean hulk 1simic sky swallower - 4living wish 4natural order 4pattern of rebirth - 3gaea's cradle 1phyrexian tower 4wooded foothills 4bayou 2savannah 2overgrown tomb 4forest - 4chalice of the void 3leyline of the void 1carrion feeder 1academy rector 1gaea's cradle 1phyrexian tower 1ronom unicorn 1uktabi orangutan 1noxious ghoul 1bone shredder

[Finn]

Ahh, so both halves were confusing. That would be a prefect 10 for me if it were my intention.

To answer your question about your deck, second_try, it scores a 10/60 (2 Hulk, 4 Natural Order, 4 Pattern of Rebirth) if I am understanding it completely. That was the lowest score of the categories I saw. Your deck is not pure combo, however, as it has a lot of different things going on. In my tests, I found that sock theory begins to break down when applied to unfocused decks.

[XxTaLoNxX]

I liked your article alot, the only thing is that I am still having a hard time pulling myself into the Vintage/Legacy formats. It's just too fast when someone can come right out of the gates and win irregardless of what the opponent "can" do. It's just not fun for me to win in a game on turn 1 or 2. In that sense I still like Type 2 and Extended formats better, now if you could do an article on either of those formats about fast combo decks I would probably find more of a connection, Vintage/Legacy is a very very difficult format for any player to hop into without having vast knowledge of the game. I mean I have been playing for two years (about when Ravnica came out) and there are still cards and combos that I am learning. I have played in two Legacy tournaments but the decks I played where designed by a friend that has access to any card he wants at any time, and a very strong knowledge of the format meta's.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I was dissapointed in the article, Finn. Socks is a pretty meaningless abstraction and I stopped reading the elf part about halfway through cause I got bored.

[arcane7828]

heh... just to to be clear I liked the elf part even though it was a little confusing... I also like the way Dom talks to his cat... but the elf did'nt feel like it closed the issue properly, the way Dom's cat does.

I understand where you are going with the socks, but I am in no position to verify or invalidate it, so it comes under "interesting thoughts" for me =)

[Simic_Mongoose]

I quite enjoyed both halves of the article.

On the "sock" half, I'm reminded of the Great Machine from Fifth Dawn (Summoning Station, Grinding Station, etc.) The idea was a 4-card infinite combo (or was it 5?), but drawing any two could give you a sort of machine-gun effect. The idea is you could run a combo deck that goes off any one of 6 or 7 different ways. That strikes me as an awfully high sock value.

As for the argument about how ubiquitous elves have become, I've often thought of that myself. Around the 1960's, elves were completely original, heard of only in old, quaint folk legends. Then Gygax and Tolkein got their hands on them and it all went downhill. I think Magic could do well for itself by exploring some other old legends and extrapolating them. Like jackalopes.

[Rottenmonk]

There IS a card called Jackelope Herd >_>

Oh and the elf part was kinda bording =/

[Frenger]

I enjoyed the part about combo in legacy, buy im not sure if i fully understand the sock theory.

Would a deck like TES be a 10/60?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=74409

4 Burning Wish, 4 Infernal Tutors, 1 Tendrils and 1 ETW?

Also, i don't understand how the sock theory works once you have the number. You said solidarity was a 5/60 and the lower the better, but TES consistantly kills a turn or two faster than solidarity.

Did i miss something here?

[Noman Peopled]

The elf part was meh, the sock theroy struck me as funny though. That's sense of humor for ya.

I feel the article would've been better with the sock part explained more exhaustively. What does that ratio mean?
Obviously, Solidarity and Belcher (can anyone really explain to me what CRET means?!) are rather different concepts. Not to mention Aluren and other more-than-one-card combos. There's also that thing about reliability. Diversifying threats is fine but any number of 1/1 dorks on turn two is hardly an autowin in the current metagame. (A more blatant example of this would be gaining infinite life which is game against aggro, aggro-control, non-combo control and life-based combo but utterly useless against infinite engines or decking mechnisms. And poison )
Even symplifying this by saying every win condition is equal ... what ratio is ideal? Obviously, this will differ with the amount of mana you can generate as well as the cost of the win. If you can't produce four mana with Belcher, your sock ratio becomes zero instantly. Other cards (like Meddling Mage or Pyro Pillar) will cut it in half.

In short, the concept is an easy one to wrap your head around but says little the way it was presented.



Minor nitpick: Belcher didn't suddenly become playable only because Warrens was added; Flame Rite and Simian Spirit Guide were introduced at what amounts to the same time.

[Lyracian]

I liked the Sock part, and lost interest in the Elf part, not really sure why...

Might try it again at some point.

My decks tend to be Legacy becuase of the cards I own. It is just not an easy format to play competativly. I would almost like to ban a dozen cards for no other reason than to slow the format down.

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

Originally Posted by Frenger

I enjoyed the part about combo in legacy, buy im not sure if i fully understand the sock theory.

Would a deck like TES be a 10/60?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=74409

4 Burning Wish, 4 Infernal Tutors, 1 Tendrils and 1 ETW?

Also, i don't understand how the sock theory works once you have the number. You said solidarity was a 5/60 and the lower the better, but TES consistantly kills a turn or two faster than solidarity.

Did i miss something here?

The HIGHER the better.

You need the engine (or something else that gets it for you), and you need the kill cards. Getting one without the other isn't necessarily going to get the job done, so you need both. The one that is less likely to show up is what you need to worry about, so the fraction that's less is the sock value.
...I guess.

Solidarity can get away with a lower count than many decks because its game plan involves drawing tons of cards, but in some ways it would be better if it had more kill cards. (In other ways it would be worse, of course.)

[wastedlife]

I thought it was alright, I thought you could've talked about other combo decks in the format was well (SI, TES, Iggy).

TES would be 12/60. Not including Brainstorms/Diminishing Returns. It wins, whatever.

[emidln]

Brainstorm is a tutor

QSI comes in at 19/60.

SITES comes in at 19/60.

B.C.'s SI comes in at 18/60.

TES comes in at 20/60.

My 4c Tendrils (formerly known as Grim Iggy) deck comes in at 22/60 (4 Grim,4 Infernal, 4 Mystical, 1 ETW/2Tendrils/2 IGG (is a tutor for the kill cards), 4 brainstorm, 1 draw4). Since I run 4 Street Wraith does that mean I actually count it as 22/56 though?

I guess that means decks like SI, TES, and Grim Iggy variants are better?