[Official Thread] Burn Mk.3

[Eseph]

The previous burn thread can be found here. For anyone interested in even more past discussion. If you come accross anything missing, or something you don't understand, or don't feel was explained well enough, I or one of the other burn players will have no problems explaining it. Just Post!


Straight Red Burn

Why play burn?
So you’re looking to get into Legacy, but you don’t want to drop a lot of money in order to get in. Well you’re in luck, Burn is by far one of the easiest decks in the format to assemble. Not only that but it’s easy enough to play, and though it looks simple enough from the get-go, the theory behind it actually runs pretty deep.

Pfft, all you do is aim for the head… right?
Well, you’re only half right. While playing the deck, this is effectively true (for the most part), but there’s a little more going on behind the scenes.

What do you mean?
Well Burn’s biggest leg up comes in the way of card advantage. I know what you’re thinking; “But burn has no card draw!” True, but that’s not exactly what I mean. Burn’s card advantage comes from depreciating the opponent’s cards. Burn runs no non-basic lands, in fact zero permanents that aren’t basic lands (or Mogg Fanatic, but we’ll get to that). So all the opponents removal is useless, and simply clogs their hands and draws. Cards like: Wasteland, Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of god, and many more, the list goes on of excellent cards played throughout legacy, that simply have no affect on this deck. Aside from improving our matchup.

As an added bonus; Burn, when built properly can be one of the most consistent decks in the format. It has to be. There is very little deck manipulation available to us, so burn has to be able to draw threats virtually every turn. And because of this burn is capable of winning on or by turn 5 consistently, even through speed bumps. By consistently aiming for the dome, and clearing the board with cards that still hit the opponent, we can run right through any agro deck and beat them to the punch.

The thing to keep in mind when building a burn deck is that after the initial seven cards, you are relying entirely on the draw to keep you going. So keeping the cards that do not do damage directly to the opponents head at a minimum, is of utmost importance. Keep that in mind both when reading through this post and designing your own build. Same for the actual casting cost of cards. Keeping the mana curve low, and keeping the high cost card to a minimum, is very important.


Let’s go over some of the card choices, some are more obvious than others, but still all have their place, and reasoning. I’ll even include some of the less spectacular card choices, both the cards that are actually worse, and the cards I just think are bad. Don’t worry I’ll mention which is which. I will also keep the splash cards and alternate build cards (that aren’t strictly burn cards) in a separate section. Both for ease of reading, and to clarify that they don’t really follow the proper game plan in terms of consistency.

The Mana Sources:
Mountain
Like I said, obvious, but keep in mind there’s nothing here but the basics, I’ll be bringing up some alternatives later, but for now: I’ve always found this the best method, simple, and much, much harder to disrupt. And with nothing choking our mana quality, they can even be another resource when it comes to sideboarding. As I’ll go through shortly.

Barbarian Ring
Less experienced players, either with magic, or just this deck, tend to jump on this card. It’s a land that deals damage! The problem is you have to get to the point where you can use it. And if that happens you’ve likely dealt yourself more damage than it will deal the opponent, and you’re likely losing/have lost the game at that point anyways.
*new* - there's some useful discussion on this past the write-up, keep reading!

Lotus Petal/ Simian Spirit Guide
This is another avenue I’m not fond of, it can be good, depending on how you play it. They can speed up your turn 1 play, but to be played even remotely well they shouldn’t. If you are using these, or the next card in our list, in your deck you are likely focusing on a balls-to-the-wind strategy. I’ll get into what I mean in a bit, but the point is you’ll be wanting to use these to play two 2cc spells on turn 3, as opposed to two 1cc spells on turn 1. Of the two I prefer the monkey. The Petal can improve a splash or work with an artifact based strategy, but for a straight to the head ideal, the monkey lets you hide mana. And that can be the difference between resolving a spell vs daze, to flat out catching the opponent unawares. Plus in an incredibly poor situation it even doubles as a beater.

Bloodstained Mire/ Wooded Foothills
Another matter that falls mainly to preference, but can still have an effect on the outcome of the game, though again mainly behind the scenes. The advantage to Fetch lands is they thin your deck, giving you a better chance to draw into more burn (keep in mind statistically for this to work properly you need to be running 6-8). And due to the numbers required to run them properly the life loss can actually have an effect on the game. Another thing to keep in mind is that they open you up to some forms of disruption that the opponent was otherwise unable to use (for example stifle, or mainboard pithing needles).


The Creatures: (something to keep in mind, decks of this style with plenty of creatures are Sligh decks, not burn)
Mogg Fanatic
The only creature truly worth running in this archetype. Seriously. He does guaranteed damage, and more often than not will provide you with a 2 for 1 trade; killing an enemy creature, or just blocking, and still getting damage through. And it’s guaranteed to kill a lackey on table. Plus throwing him in the path of an oncoming Tarmogoyf, and still dealing damage to the dome is far too much fun.

Grim Lavamance
Usually the most contested card in all of the burn threads. Don’t get me wrong he’s a great creature, just not in this deck. Putting resources into something that won’t deal damage immediately, and may never, just isn’t worth it in this deck. Looking to put him in a deck look to sligh.

Spark Elemental
Should not be played in this deck. Yes it looks tempting. No, it’s not good. Nothing like playing an inferior bolt that likely won’t ever make it to the opponent. Yay!

Ball Lightning
Bigger Spark Elemental, but the same reasoning applies. It does swing for more, and can actually kill that blocking Goyf. But it still stands little chance of connecting flat out with the opponent, and could easily cost you 3 mana for absolutely no effect other than relieving the opponent of removal they couldn’t otherwise use.


The Burn
The Good Stuff: (these are cards that should be considered regardless of build. Most of these should never be dropped from a burn list for any reason.)
Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Lava Spike
If you change anything in this deck it should not be these. Without a suite of cheap burn this deck does not perform, and nothing beats out these four cards in that category. And yes lava spike is bad. There I said it. But there’s nothing to be done, it does what we need it to, and that’s that.

Price of Progress
Can cause some serious damage to an unsuspecting, or otherwise helpless opponent. This choice is the most meta dependant of the lot, as it really depends what you may or not be playing against. But in any developed metagame you can usually count on this for at least 4 damage if not upwards of 8, all on its own.

Fireblast
An auto include in any burn deck, it does four damage… for free… not too much needs to or should be said about this card. It is just simply good.


The Usual Suspects: (Cards that are often included, but are more contested than the previous group.)
Rolling Earthquake, Flamebreak
Boardsweeps! Rolling Earthquake could simply be earthquake, but if you’ve got ‘em they are strictly better. The important thing here is that while it sweeps the table, it is still dealing damage to the opponents dome. Which is the primary reason for their inclusion over Pyroclasm, which is still what everyone assumes when you go to sweep the board... You don’t want to run a full set of either, in order to keep the tempo up. But they can be a big aid to your agro matches. Though the symmetrical damage can be worrisome, usually being able to clear out threats, outweighs the damage you take. Another thing to keep in mind with flamebreak, is that creatures cannot be regenerated. It’s not a huge difference, but you’ll find it actually comes into play from time to time.

Magma Jet
This is true quality burn, true it has the least potential for damage, but being able to control your draws in this deck is priceless. Typically aimed at threatening creatures due to it’s lower damage count. This is another card I would highly recommend unless you are going for a combo burn win. Where you don't feel the loss of damage is worth the card quality fixing.

Fork
This is likely the most up for debate choice in here. They add an extra amount of chance, as they can be a terrible top deck, but they can double back most anything cast at you, and have incredible synergy with Fireblast. I recommend not exceeding 2 if including in a build.

Browbeat
Punisher cards without drawbacks are always a wonderful thing. That’s not strictly true, but for the most part this card might as well read: If your opponent is above 12 life deal 5 damage, to him or her, otherwise draw 3 cards. And drawing into more burn is always nice. The exception of course is combo, as they will always prefer you to draw cards then deal damage immediately, prolonging their chances of winning. Again, wouldn’t recommend a full set, as it is still up in the air how it will work.

Incinerate
A great little card. The usual standard for 2 cost burn spells. It’s an instant speed 2 for 3 damage, with some extra influence to it, in the form of “cannot be regenerated”. One thing to keep in mind when deciding on burn spells for a deck, is how flexible the card is. Instant speed > than sorcery, without fail, so there is absolutely no reason to run a card like Volcanic Hammer over this one.


Chain of PlasmaAnother quality instant speed two cc, 3 damage spell. It's generaly worse than incinerate, missing the non-regenerative clause, but it can still be useful. Could easily be run in place of Magma Jet in a dek that needs all the damage it can pump out.

Flame Rift
A card I’ve never felt the need to run, but should always be considered. Two mana for 4 damage, is nothing to scoff at, and it can just about replace fork for what it does. As the best use of fork will always be to use the 2 mana you slip into your pool when playing a Fireblast. The thing to keep in mind is the symmetrical aspect of the card. The reason it is not in the above section. No matter how strong this card is the 4 damage you deal yourself, can lose you games.


Some Less likely choices: (that still work their way into some builds. Warranted or not.)
Char
Not a bad card at instant speed, but some of the following three cost cards tend to beat it out for usefulness.

Scent of Cinder
Looks good on paper, but in practice ends up as a terrible topdeck. Unfortunately not consistent enough for most decks.

Flames of the Bloodhand
The damage prevention clause of this card is the real push for it. Otherwise standard three casting cost 4 damage spell.

Pulse of the Forge
Again, looks good on paper. But getting the most use out of it requires you to be behind on the life count, at which point you're likely losing the game anyways.

Cave-in
Free damage is always nice. But at the cost of another card this one isn't quite worth it. Typically the card you remove will do as much or more damage than this.

Shrapnel Blast
Needs to be built around. And requires an artifact in play to be effective work.

Cursed Scroll
Cheap to play, and provides recursive damage. But not immediately, and may not always perform to expectations, depending on draws. Also vulnerable to removal.

Ankh of Mishra
Recursive damage based on the opponent playing lands (pretty standard plays…). But again easily removed, and does not deal damage immediately. This is mainly a hold-over from the very first burn lists. It may be worth looking into again, depending on the sorts of decks that start coming out.

Mishra’s Bauble / Urza’s Bauble
Used to reduce the overall card count of the deck. Can also be used to flesh out an artifact build. The new Street Wraith might be a better option now, if we feel the life loss is acceptable.

And more, to be added as pointed out, this section is not as important as the rest and deserves considerably less attention. Except to say these are not recommended venues.


Some Sideboard Options:
Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast
Counter blue spells at a very low cost. Well worth running 4 of in the board, helps against most any deck involving blue.

Pyrostatic Pillar
Combo-killer, of sorts. Greatly improves your chances against combo decks once it’s in play. They have to deal with it before they can continue comboing, and that can set them back enough to help you win. Both in life total, or in turns taken.

Pithing Needle
Should be in every burn sideboard, when factoring for the cost of building this deck, it’s recommended you include 4 of this card in the total cost. Can shut out most anything from CoP: Red to Aether Vials, to Survival of the Fittest, and Many others. It can even be used to shut out fetchlands and the like in decks that heavily rely on them.

Anarchy
One of the few red cards that can actually solve the problem of Circle of Protection: Red. Same goes for Pro Red creatures or cards like Solitary confinement. It is unfortunately expensive (casting cost), so should really come into consideration in white heavy metas. But it can’t hurt to be prepared…

Price of Progress
If you aren’t mainboarding them, or aren’t running a full set mainboard, it can help to flush them out in the sideboard. They really can turn some games around.

Sulfuric Vortex
Was originally in the board to shut out Ravenous Baloth recursion in RGSA. But can still come in handy against different decks. This is more of a meta decision though.

Blood Moon
Turns off non-basics and can win games by itself. However it doesn’t really fit the goal of the deck otherwise. Again really a meta choice, but will often get cut for more useful cards.

Tormod’s Crypt
The ever present, and ever handy solve-all for any deck to combat graveyard abusive decks. Can really be a boon to any sideboard, but much like everything else here, it is meta dependant, and up to the player.


Splash Kits: ( to help build splash variants, keep in mind that while adding the advantage of a second colour, you are diluting the deck and opening yourself up to wasteland hate and the like. It’s up to the deck builder to decide whether or not it is worth it.)

The standard of 4x R/x Dual land, and 4-8x Fetch land, applies to each of these.

R/W:
Probably the best, and most usual choice when splashing. Even if it seemingly provides little, access to enchantment removal is an incredible gain. The list is small, and really doesn’t look like much, but it’s a simple change, and doesn’t leave you too vulnerable or to any real change in tempo.

Mainboard:
4x Lightning Helix
Sideboard:
4x Disenchant

R/U:
The Second best choice for different reasons. There are r/u burn spells, but none can really compare or replace a mono red card like Lightning Helix can. The blue splash can come into effect in the area of card draw. My recommended blue splash would simply be:

Mainboard:
8x Fetchland
4x Brainstorm

R/B:
Not a great choice, there is nothing in black for damage dealing, at least nothing that improves this deck. The advantage to black comes in with the sideboard. Though most of the options can be solved through artifacts, or through a different, more effective splash.

Sideboard Options:
Extirpate
Leyline of the Void (note: this could be run without the splash, it's just more stable with it)
Ghostflame

R/G:
There is virtually nothing to be gained by this splash. It provides the same sideboard options that white does, but without the mainboard option of useful burn.


Ok so what do I do?
Playing the deck is a relatively simple process. You start by aiming for the head. Then you aim for the head some more. That’s not really the whole of it, the important part is what to play when. There aren’t a lot of options throughout the deck, just a couple of things to keep in mind. Most of it is simple common sense. Like pointing cards that do less damage towards creatures, rather than higher damage cards.

Play cards as late as you can, this is just about a standard for magic, but it is especially true for this deck. Wait to see what the opponent has played on their turn before deciding your card play. And when deciding on what to play for 1 drops the order of priority (from least versatile to most, and therefore what should be played out first) is: Mogg Fanatic, Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt.

Lightning bolt should just about never be played on your turn, as it is the most versatile card of the lot, and the only instant. Rift bolt comes in before lava spike simply because in order to get the best use of its 1 turn wait it needs to be down as soon as possible.

Decklists:
Just a couple of the lists you’re likely to see floating around.

Deck
Dead Set Red Lands: 19x Mountain Creatures: 4x Mogg Fanatic The Rest 4x Lighting Bolt 4x Chain Lightning 4x Lava Spike 4x Rift Bolt 4x Magma Jet 3x Price of Progress 2x Fork 2x Rolling Earthquake 3x Flamebreak 3x Browbeat 4x Fireblast		SB: 4x Red Elemental Blast 4x Pithing Needle 3x Pyrostatic Pillar 3x Anarchy 1x Price of Progress

This is the list I personally run. I find it to be the most balanced, keeping the ability to win turn 3-5, and keep the board sweeps in. I’ll be using this build for the comparisons, as it is the most average of the lot. The split on the boardsweeps is intended to both avoid extirpate styled cards, and give myself some leeway in casting cost. Sometimes sweeping for 1 is all that is necessary. 2 Forks reduce the chance of top-decking, but still come in handy.

I’ve included the board I use, but it is hard to gauge what the expected board for any other list would be. The board for Burn as much as any other deck is dependant on meta, and is really up to the pilot.

Deck
Dedicated Red Mana: 17x Mountain 4x Simian Spirit Guide The Rest 4x Lightning Bolt 4x Chain Lightning 4x Lava Spike 4x Rift Bolt 4x Flame Rift 4x Chain of Plasma 3x Incinerate 3x Fork 3x Flames of the Bloodhand 2x Browbeat 4x Fireblast

This is one of the other primary builds, you throw the boardsweeps, and flexible cards like Fanatic and Magma Jet. And opt for one single strategy, aim for the opponent’s head. This deck aims to increase it’s chances of winning on turn 3-4. It doesn’t have the same breadth of stability as other builds, instead looking to increases its consistency.

Deck
Artifact Burn Mana: 13x Mountain 4x Great Furnace 3x Lotus Petal Artifacts: 2x Ankh of Mishra 4x Cursed Scroll Creatures: 4x Mogg Fanatic	4x Lightning Bolt 4x Lava Spike 4x Chain Lightning 4x Magma Jet 4x Shrapnel Blast 3x Flamebreak 3x Browbeat 4x Fireblast

Typical artifact splash, mainly needs to splash enough dual purpose artifacts to fuel shrapnel blast. And still keep the game plan similar enough to run as usual. The problem with all artifact builds is that they run artifacts… Which typically means you are relying on board based damage, and running permanents and lands that are more susceptible to removal.

Deck
Sligh Land 19x Mountain Creatures 4x Mogg Fanatic 4x Grim Lavamancer 4x Slith Firewalker Artifacts 4x Cursed Scroll	The Rest 4x Lightning Bolt 4x Chain Lightning 4x Incinerate 4x Magma Jet 3x Price of Progress 2x Browbeat 4x Fireblast

I’m including this because it’s close enough. Just keep in mind it does play differently. You’re running with threats off the board, as much as in hand so it doesn’t have the same advantages as Burn, but it has the added bonus of reusable damage.

The Matchups
Ah the fun part, here’s where I have the greatest potential to overhype this deck! I kid of course, any problems with these will likely be fixed before I actually post this onto the forums. But until I’m told otherwise, here are the matchups as I’ve always seen them, and played them.

You’ll notice I drop lands when sideboarding. This is simply my way of doing things, it’s relatively unorthodox, and not something to consider unless you’re comfortable with it. And ONLY when reducing the mean casting cost of the deck.

Goblins
(Slightly favorable)
Both decks are equally fast, but being able to reset the goblin meter, or kill off any especially threatening goblin (Lackey, Piledriver; I’m lookin’ at you…) with virtually any card in the deck really helps Burn ride this one out. The biggest problems come from being shut down by Rishadan Port with an active Aether Vial on the table.
Sideboard gives us Pithing Needle for whatever we find most threatening, or just block access to their Fetch land of choice (only if you’re really sure of what you’re doing.

Goblin splash variants don’t change the numbers too much, white provides access to more specialized sideboard options, but mainboard StP is even more useless than gempalms vs Burn. And Green changes virtually nothing, just don’t board in needle against it. -3 Browbeat -1 Land, +4 Pithing Needle (if need be)

Threshold
UGR (Slightly unfavorable ) UGW ( Slightly less un-favorable)
In the UGR Match we run into some problems, there are very few dead cards for them in this match, their removal can still be used on you. UGW is better with StP and the like slowing their draws. Don’t even try to kill a Tarmogoyf, it’s not worth it, use Fanatics to block and plink away. Go for the win at the end of their turn, and only with a back up of more burn on your turn.In both matches Price of Progress is your friend. The longer this game goes the better this card gets.

If you’re seeing an abundance of counters, then REB can always come in. From the board, the fourth Price of Progress can come in over a Browbeat. It will easily outshine anything else already in the deck in this matchup.

Landstill
(Very Favorable) W/Counter-Top (Unfavorable) w/R (Slightly favorable)
A re-emergence of Landstill would cause me the greatest amount of joy. Unless the deck to com out of it was the Counterbalance + Sensei’s Divining Top Build. The difference is so great it’s frightening. If playing against countertop, Do what you can to twist the counters, sacrifice bolts to land bigger cards. It’s still an absolute pain. Against regular old landstill, you’re so much better off it’s not even funny. Landstill is slow, and can do very little to you. A Standstill in play actually works in your favor. Remember those dead cards I was talking about? Well while they are drawing into them you are setting up your hand with quality burn and still playing lands. You can play far more spells at once than they can, and with plenty of lands and a full hand, you can pop the standstill and begin burning through the end of their turn and straight into yours. They only have so much mana available and so many counterspells. UR is better for them, but you’ve still got the advantage in quantity.

Sideboarding Red Elemental Blast and Pithing Needle are both good options. Against countertop both are necessary just to try and compete. Price of Progress helps with this one too, your best bet is -3x Flamebreak -2x Earthquake -2x Fork -1 Land, +4 REB +4 Pithing Needle. Against a regular build don’t worry about the needle unless you desperately feel you need to block out the manlands.

Solidarity
(Highly Unfavorable, but this match, more than any, is very player dependant.)
The numbers there are rough, against someone who really know what they are doing with solidarity you stand little chance. Burn can play with the stack, but a proper solidarity player will manipulate you in circles. Try and run out your sorceries as quickly as possible to leave you the most options to try and win. If you can get them into the threatening zone (7 or less life), where a bolt + fireblast can finish them, you can try to bait them with soreries, but keep in mind if they go off during your upkeep and don’t force the card draw you can conceivably burn them after they’ve done their thing, but this is by no means a good matchup.

After board we’ve got REB and Pyrostatic Pillar (-3 price of progress – 3 Browbeat -2 Earthquake), just don’t rely to much on the pillar, though if you can get them low enough it can conceivably shut them out. Remember they can bounce it from the board off a wish. But this can also be a good opportunity to trump them on the stack, burning in response to the bounce. Against a skilled opponent this isn’t spectacular, but any less developed player can get caught by this. In a meta where this is prevalent, Sirocco is probably your best bet as a side board card. It backed by an REB can end the game by itself.

Mono Black or Black/X
(Favorable, the bigger the splash, the better the match.)
I know the numbers there look odd, considering how badly discard can hamper this deck, but keep in mind that on average their creatures will be coming across for less than you will be dishing out. It’s important to empty your hand as quickly as possible, just to get everything you can in before the discard hits. Which will be soon, but playing out discard lightens their hand as well. And we recover faster. Outside of Green splash for Goyf, their creatures will always be small enough to be unthreatening.

No board is really required for this match up, nor is there really anything available for this.

Stax and Angel Stax
(Unfavorable), Angel Stax (Worse).
This one is not fun. They won’t win quickly, and unless you do, the game may not end for a while. Your best bet is to try and win quickly, which may or may not be resolved off the draw. Depending on their start you might be able to squeak out a win quickly. If you don’t, you can always allow yourself to be slow rolled in the hopes of hitting some sort of mistake. Chalice of the Void, and Trinisphere are the cards in here that will really hurt you.
Angel Stax just gets worse with the inclusion of Exalted Angels. Through them they can entirely shut you out of the game regardless of any mistakes they may or may not make.

Sideboard doesn’t offer up much, my suggestion is that if these decks are very prevalent in your meta sideboard something like Shattering Spree. Null Rod and Kill Switch the usual suspects don’t really offer up enough, and Shattering Spree can get around Chalice.




That's it for now. I will be keeping a close eye on the thread, regardless of posts, I will gladly change anything I've got wrong, or have forgotten. And any help or comments are welcome. Thanks for reading, I hope you've enjoyed it.
~ Matt Lehoux

[Wildspeaker]

Good read, I'm developing a counter-burn deck, although not really relevant..but I get the idea of which burn spells to include.

[Amadi]

I really am confused that you didn't include Cave-in anywhere. Not even "cards not to include", nor "maybe", nowhere. I can understand it not being good because of cardloss, but it is free sweep spell which should at least prove useful against goblins. It also deals damage to players.

[Eseph]

Well there's a reason I said card still need to be and will be added. Doing so right now. Keep in mind nothing here is set in stone (I honestly almost forgot about scent of cinder...). If anyone else spots a problem just let me know and on it goes.

[pooispoois]

Some minor nitpicks on the primer:

Originally Posted by Sh33p

Pulse of the Forge
Again, looks good on paper, but it’s at sorcery speed. Add in the fact that getting the most use out of it requires you to be behind on the life count, and this one is pretty well shot.

Pulse of the Forge is actually an instant.

Originally Posted by Sh33p

Incinerate
A great little card. The usual standard for 2 cost burn spells. It’s an instant speed 2 for 3 damage, with some extra influence to it, in the form of “cannot be regenerated”. One thing to keep in mind when deciding on burn spells for a deck, is how flexible the card is. Instant speed > than sorcery, without fail, so there is absolutely no reason to run a card like lava axe over this one.

Don't you mean Volcanic Hammer where you wrote Lava Axe?

Also, in the artifact splash build, you included Grafted Skullcap. Isn't Bottled Cloister pretty much strictly better?

[Eseph]

Duely noted and fixed. Hopefully I've not messed up too much and we can get to discussing card choices. But for now I'm happy to fix anything that needs it.

[sorrel]

How about Sudden Shock? Or is the bonus just not good enough?

[Eseph]

Awesome, a card that hasn't been flogged to death.

But first, the reasons for inclusion/changes in my write-up.

Cave-in
This was originally included in the first burn builds because it is free burn, ontop of that it's a free boardsweep. Unfortunately it was quickly removed due to a couple of factors.

-The card you remove is likely to do more damage than this card will do itself. Not to mention the amount of damage you would be likely to get playing something else in it's place + the card you have to remove to play it.
- 2 damage is not enough of a difference to be worth the drawbacks.
- And finally the alternatives are just better. Flamebreak hits for more damage, the Earthquakes (Earthquake & Rolling Earthquake) have variable amounts of damage, and both can be played off the topdeck.

The only other change that realy needs mention is that though Bottled Cloister is strictly better than Grafted Skullcap, neither one should have actually been in the list. They are too expensive, and don't fit the flow of the deck. The appropriate card, that has been added, was Ankh of Mishra, as a recursive form of artifact damage, that throws itself to Shrapnel blast.

On to Sudden Shock.

Personally I wouldn't run it. It's by no means a bad card, being effectively uncounterable is nice. So is not being able to respond to it in any way. Unfortunately there is nothing I would replace to run it. And at only 2 damage, it's obvious comparison is Magma Jet. Which is, in my opinion, just about strictly better. Plus, there aren't really enough creatures that a regular burn spell couldn't kill that this can. Atleast not in the current meta, the only one that comes to mind is Nantuko Shade.

[Eldariel]

Uhm, Magma Jet shouldn't be an autoinclude. If you try to strictly maximize your chances of goldfishing, you won't play it since you need to pay more attention to your mana efficiency than your draws.

Also, Barbarian Ring shouldn't be an autodeclude, it improves the match against aggro/control decks by a wide margin as it allows you to win the game once your opponent has stabilized. It not only increases your chances of topdecking burn once you've burned out, it also gives you an uncounterable (Stifle aside) burn-spell that just happens to not take any deckspace. Sure, it can be Wastelanded which can be disastrous, and it can be Stifled, which can be mildly annoying, but if you plan on ever beating aggro/control, having enough burn to continue after they've used their counters matters, and this increases the amount of raw burn in the deck, also decreasing the need for deck manipulation (Magma Jet).


Basically, you can either build 'control burn' with all the midgame tools (probably including Cursed Scroll, Magma Jet, Mogg Fanatic, Lava Dart, Flamebreak/Cave-In (I ain't gonna get into THAT debate, feel free though) and maybe even Lavamancer) for an aggro/aggro-control meta or you can build a 'combo burn' that maximizes card/damage/mana ratio for an open meta (since in open meta, it's usually optimal to kill asap; less cards you need to worry about - and this is one deck that has a ton of cards it'd need to worry about in case the opponent lives).

[Eseph]

Well I'm going to go after your views in reverse order, because that's honestly the best way to do so.

I don't know how you can advocate building towards the fastest kill possible, and think you can do it strictly off the topdeck. That's suicide. That's not better for a mixed meta, it's worse. If you know the meta, and know that a quick kill is absolutely necessary, then go for it. Otherwise, you go for the build with the best chance of surviving any match. Aka the one with a more stable position (also, I would personally never run a single permanent other than fanatic in my main, just putting that out there).

Let's say you build your deck aimed entirely to win as quickly as possible. With no way to sort cards, or anything of the like (read Magma Jet). And then you run into MBA, or Stax, or a deck with, I don't know, counter spells or any other form of disruption. Let alone a fast aggro deck that can actually race you (read goblins, or 9-land). You are relying strictly on top decking to get you out of this mess. And the moment you lose a tempo play, you find yourself behind in the race. Not to mention if you have to go out of your way to deal with a creature. And what if you had to deal with a creature, in order to get to the win. Oops, we didn't need that turn anyways right?

I understand the want to win quick, I know how it works. But you can't say you don't need Magma Jet to do it. It can fix your draws for 2 entire turns, and that advantage alone is more useful than 1 more damage an equally costed card might do.

And to Barbarian Ring. It's BAD. It really is. It's nice to think of it as extra burn for the late game, sounds god like that, on paper. And then you try and implement it. And all of a sudden you're effectively playing at a starting amount of 16 life, just so you might be able to pay 1, sac a land (that you couldnt use to pay the one) all to do 2 whole damage to the opponent. Now that sure sounds good to me. Seriously it doesn't belong in any burn deck expecting to win in a relatively timely manner.

And I won't go into the boardsweeps bit either, as you've not even offered an opinion for or against them (though I assume against). I had more comments but have removed them as I feel they were more than a little too inflamitory.

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Sh33p

I don't know how you can advocate building towards the fastest kill possible, and think you can do it strictly off the topdeck. That's suicide. That's not better for a mixed meta, it's worse. If you know the meta, and know that a quick kill is absolutely necessary, then go for it. Otherwise, you go for the build with the best chance of surviving any match. Aka the one with a more stable position (also, I would personally never run a single permanent other than fanatic in my main, just putting that out there).

Let's say you build your deck aimed entirely to win as quickly as possible. With no way to sort cards, or anything of the like (read Magma Jet). And then you run into MBA, or Stax, or a deck with, I don't know, counter spells or any other form of disruption. Let alone a fast aggro deck that can actually race you (read goblins, or 9-land). You are relying strictly on top decking to get you out of this mess. And the moment you lose a tempo play, you find yourself behind in the race. Not to mention if you have to go out of your way to deal with a creature. And what if you had to deal with a creature, in order to get to the win. Oops, we didn't need that turn anyways right?

I understand the want to win quick, I know how it works. But you can't say you don't need Magma Jet to do it. It can fix your draws for 2 entire turns, and that advantage alone is more useful than 1 more damage an equally costed card might do.

You know, if you cast Magma Jet, you give up turn 3 kill and casting two Magma Jets virtually gives up turn 4 kill too. It simply hurts your goldfish too much. Yes, control-burn SHOULD run it, but combo-burn shouldn't. All I'm saying is that writing it as an auto-include is wrong, since people who build a different style of burn are gonna play it and lose because of it. You don't need deck manipulation in a deck where 46 cards are virtually identical; the chances are you're going to draw what you need anyways which means you just wasted a point of mana AND a point of damage in Magma Jet.

Originally Posted by Sh33p

And to Barbarian Ring. It's BAD. It really is. It's nice to think of it as extra burn for the late game, sounds god like that, on paper. And then you try and implement it. And all of a sudden you're effectively playing at a starting amount of 16 life, just so you might be able to pay 1, sac a land (that you couldnt use to pay the one) all to do 2 whole damage to the opponent. Now that sure sounds good to me. Seriously it doesn't belong in any burn deck expecting to win in a relatively timely manner.

If you expect to win against aggro-control, you need to minimize your amount of dead cards as you're going to lose a number of cards to their counterspells/discard, meaning you'll be stuck needing to draw enough burn to kill them before they win or effectively win (play something like Jitte). When you need to draw of a group of N, you'll need to maximize the group of N even if it costs you life. Aggro/control is going to be swinging with huge Tarmogoyfs, so the turn they're attacking for lethal, it's likely that they'll be dealing enough to kill you from 17 (you'll use Ring 3 times if you're forced to play it as your second land) or from 20.

Also, Barbarian Ring is incredible against any blue control, as it allows you to finish them off after they've stabilized, and they never present a relevant clock. Again, all of your burn simply won't resolve so you'll need to maximize your percentages, as well as card efficiency, to have a good-enough chance of drawing into sufficient amounts in the proper timeframe. Barbarian Ring improves your ratios considerably as your deck suddenly only has ~14 dead cards instead of ~18; that's a multi-percent difference.

Originally Posted by Sh33p

And I won't go into the boardsweeps bit either, as you've not even offered an opinion for or against them (though I assume against). I had more comments but have removed them as I feel they were more than a little too inflamitory.

I don't have an opinion on the boardsweepers, since they're strictly a metagame call. If you expect to face Goblins, Zoo or any Empty the Warrens-combo, they're awesome. If you expect none of the formers, and instead to face Threshold, Stax or SI, they're horrible.

The point I'm trying to make is you're too absolute on cards that can work in one kind of a metagame, but not another. Fact is that metagames vary and Burn is a strictly metagame deck, and those cards all have their jobs in different metas.


Also, I'm glad you show some self-restraint. Keep this academic, if possible, since it's the facts that we're arguing, not the people.

[Eseph]

Well argued. It's nice to have someone properly arguing for the side of combo burn. We haven't actually had someone do that properly yet.

I'm willing to agree on some of the points on Barbarian ring, but to me it simply is not worth running. It's true that you're burn will be countered, but not all of it, and not so much that putting yourself down upto a turn of their creatures swinging. Keep in mind, in an extended game, your spells in the yard won't build up any faster than they would otherwise. And ontop of that a best case scenario, for burn, is to draw fewer lands, as over the long run it means more burn comming accross. To me running a card that worsens the best case scenario, just isn't worth it.

I am williing to keep in mind some of this stuff. But I won't change anything from this in the primer, yet. I'd like to get some more opinions on the matter. And anyone who can read it, can read these posts too, and decide for themselves. It may get changed once we've decided on possible cards from the new set that may/may not be considered.

[wo bu YA0]

Hey Sh33p, just some nitpicks:
Grim Lavamancer is missing an R, and Fireblast's autocard is typed wrong.
Also, what about Chain of Plasma? It's a 2 for 3, and can maybe even be 6 once in a blue moon.

How's this brainstorm:

Deck
Lands: 18 18 Mountain Burn: 42 4 Mogg Fanatic 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Chain Lightning 4 Rift Bolt 4 Lava Spike 4 Fireblast 4 Magma Jet 4 Incinerate 3 Chain of Plasma 3 Flamebreak 2 Price of Progress 2 Browbeat

[calibretto]

what about the decks that are dedicated burn, but also run things like ensnaring bridge, scalding tongs, and null brooch. personally i think that if i were to build a burn deck, it would include a lot of brown as well as red.

oh and, btw, great job on the primer Sh33p. really good read.

edit: the card tags around fireblast are screwed up.

calibretto

[sorrel]

Calibretto, if you made a burn deck with those cards, it would have to run Shrapnel Blast, but I think the Shrapnel Blast version in the first post is probably better than one using all these artifacts.