First off, if there's already a thread for this, either delete this one or merge it. Thanks.
The other day, I played against a mono red snow deck online. I've played decks like this before, and I initially dismissed it as another win. These decks usually tend to be a huge pile of burn that auto loses to discard/permission, or a confused mix of aggro and control that ends up trying for both themes, but ultimately doesn't do either well enough. But the list I played against was pure control, and I got shown up. With the extreme amount of removal in the deck, I can see it having excellent matchups versus virtually every aggro matchup in the Lorwyn Standard environment. Let's look at a list I threw together:
This is just a preliminary mockup of the deck; it has not been tweaked or playtested as of yet, it's just something I threw together to represent the archtype. With that said, what do you guys think of it? Granted, it obliterates aggro matchups, especially Kithkin. It should be able to out-burn its opponents with the help of Stuffy Doll and take down opposing creatures that would do harm. The question is: how does it fare against control? Off the bat, I would say it has a negative matchup percentage against blue based control like Cryptic Teachings, because they have draw and you don't. But the fact that you should be able to take down any win condition they lay down should buy you a lot of time to resolve a Chandra or Stuffy Doll, which will whittle them away to nothing.
Oh, and the Sudden Shock is in the deck for the Blink/Mannequin matchups. I've learned that removing a creature that's about to get blinked is a huge gain in tempo, and the Mannequin's ability allows anything it reanimates to die as soon as anything touches it.
Let me know if you guys think this could be a good deck to build in the new standard environment, in the meantime, I'll be testing its matchups.
I happen to hate this deck, but it performed very well at States. It's proven competitive, and an official list needs to be posted in the respective forum.
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The deck has two variants: a green splash for Tarmogoyf, a version which was first designed by Ced Philips, while the other is monored. Bill Stark wrote an article here on the latter, and got second place at our states with the deck. His only loss in the tournament was in the finals, against reigning champ Brandon Scheel, who pulled a repeat and just happened to be playing Cedric's version.
I completely agree that there needs to be an official thread in competitive.
I would probably move the Martyr of Ashes to main board and kill the Terramorphic Expanses. Scrying Sheets looks like it would be exeptional in this deck I would bump 3 up to a 4 of. I am not sure on Chandra but maybe this is a good deck for it. All in all I can see how this deck can do well. If you can get down a Stuffy Doll then Skred becomes more awesome than it already is in a snow red deck.
In my opinion, Tarox is no good. Any win condition should be able to survive an Incinerate, and he can't. Also, I don't feel the Pyroclasms are necessary if you're running Molten Disaster, seeing as the Disaster can be a win condition in itself. I guess if you really need to buy time versus Kithkin, it's usable, but that's what spot removal is for, and this deck does not have a lack of it.
My proponent for using Terramorphic Expanses in a mono colored control deck is that they have very little or no downsides. They're really only thinning the deck, and the CIPT will not matter that much, since the burn curve ranges from 1-5. With this said, I don't think we should load up the deck with colorless producing lands, because having a lot of mountains in play is important for Skred. This is why I don't have the 4th Scrying Sheets in here, because any time where you're using more than one Sheets at a time is often more than necessary.
Anyway, why are we arguing over creatures and lands? The most important part of this deck is its burn, we should be discussing the pros and cons of the burn base. In the snow build, I feel 4 Skred, 4 Incinerate, and 4 Molten Disaster are necessary. Anything else is up for debate.
With this said, I don't think we should load up the deck with colorless producing lands, because having a lot of mountains in play is important for Skred. This is why I don't have the 4th Scrying Sheets in here, because any time where you're using more than one Sheets at a time is often more than necessary.
You don't need the mountains for a good skred it deal damage for snow permanents not for mountains and scrying sheets is a snow permanent. I think 4 of would be good because though 2 isnt exactly great having 1 is really good and you will want to draw one. It would be very unlucky if you drew all colorless lands and no couldsteel hearts to make a red source. More in favor than out of favor for you in my opninion to run 4 scrying sheets. I dont like the expanses even though they are slight deck thinning. I hate to draw one when I need a land to play something and have to wait an extra turn. Also they are not snow and would be a bunk top card for sheets.
mikey g as for your deck I am not a fan of tarox or going the helion route I think a more so pure control element would work well. Martyr and burn spells to kill enemy creatures as well and to harm your opponent. Molten disaster is pure awesome in this deck and stuffy doll fits in pretty nice even with its 5cc it is still a house here. Skred plays off all the snow permanents, Stalking yeti to take down creatures your oponent is playing after you clear his side of the board with martyr (idealistic thinking). Also Chanadra for a plainswalker that is left unanswer is a game winner in itself.
4 scrying sheets is a must. the drawing engine is incredible just try it. you do use more than 1 a turn.
totally agree about tarox, hostility perhaps, not sure on the synergy with stuffy, the cost either. at least it has haste.
theres no need for terramorphs, you can go on about deck thinning but if you get 1 or 2 terramoprhs opening hand with 1 other land cracking the terramorphs is gonna reduce your chance of hitting every land drop. plus early on you want the land open to burn things. plus it doesnt hit sheets. again testing will show they arent beneficial.
pyroclasms are essential imo in the current format. test against aggro and you dont wanna have to wait to turn 4 to drop a 2 point molten disaster (and thats without split second#). disaster is more of a win condition due to the cost.
i think im gonna try matyrs and yetis md. am totally skeptical on chandra (will test it once release week ends and the price drops)
I don't think you have played a planeswalker yet.
Chandra is insane board control. I'd rank it almost as good as stuffy doll in this deck
1)its incredibly difficult to get rid of(7+ damage(if a deck is capable of doing this amount of damage i wouldn't understand why they just wouldn't aim it at you), oblivion ring, and Pithing needle are the only ways i can think of)
2) In 3 turns it can deal 12 damage and wipe your opponents board. In 4 it can do 13 and can keep on going with 1 damage a turn.
3)1 damage a turn is the same as stuffy doll
Pyroclasms are good sb material but i don't think they fit the md unless token decks or kitchkin decks become a big problem in the meta(which i doubt), plus Martyr fills that role(flyers aren't too big in standard) and provides a chump for a goyf.
I agree with you on your other card choices though.
How did States suddenly make this deck playable? Don't tell me that the sole inclusion of Chandra Nalaar suddenly made the stuffy doll combo playable? Every other card is from Coldsnap/Timespiral.
It was a combination of Chandra and the non-existence of Dralnu. Now that there is no longer a Counter-Control deck in the format, decks like this can run wild on Elves, G/R aggro, etc.
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the difference is the lack of teh other combo decks - dragonstorm, dredge. both of which were more consistant and mono red playing contrl has very little disruption for these
Dstorm died earlier than that and red can disrupt dredge. That leaves only the warrens/grapeshot storm combo decks.
currently playing bill stark's list, -1 chandra, -1 disaster, +2 mountains.
the deck is fun to play, but it can have problems with a swarm of flyers, since its board sweepers deal with non-flyers only. this is solved by pyroclasm in the board though, but im wondering whether sulfurous blast maindeck would be a good addition.
one last thing: anyone know of other ways to get rid of annoying epochrasites for good? disintegrate works but i'd rather save those for ending the game.
Right, sorry about not reading cards, Skred deals damage equal to snow permenants, not mountians. I read the best. Therefore, 4 Scrying Sheets is good.
In the little bit of testing I've done, you win the game against blue based control if you can resolve Stuffy Doll or Chandra. This isn't that easy because they're both kinda costly, but it really is the difference in the game if you get them to stick. Molten Disaster with kicker is your best friend against control, and it's not horrible against Goblins or Kithkin either.
Question: Does Hostility have a place in this deck? On one hand, he transforms every burn spell into a monster, capable of dealing insane amounts of damage in a turn. He can also unexpectedly crash in for 6, and he can't really die. On the other hand, any deck that can deal with 3/1's makes Hostility's ability (heh..rhymes) into a drawback, since the deck is basically one big burn spell. That, and Hostility doesn't really have any synergy with the already existing win conditions of Stuffy Doll or Chandra, especially because he's upping the curve if included in the deck with them. So I say it's either Stuffy Doll or Hostility, in which Stuffy wins with mad crazy synergy with Skred.
And could we please get a competitive thread going? The deck had a great showing at States, it's proven itself to be competitive.
I am curious about the decks splashing green. It is said that some of the MrsControl ("mono red snow control"not the wife of Mr. Control I dont like MRC it is a food company) decks with big finishes splashed green and at one states red control took first and second with the green splash beating the solid red in the finals. Are the green splash decks only splashing for Tarmogoyf? Are they using other stuff like Hurricane in the sideboard against fairy decks? Did they pop in Birds of Paradise for mana excel? Did they add Wall of Roots to slow down aggro plus add mana excel? I am just wondering why the green splash. If it is just for Tarmogoyf it seems like you could potentially slow the deck down to pop it in even if it is a monster of a card.
The neat thing about this deck is that the snow white control decks will instictly side in Story Circle to stop you. The problem with that is Story Circle end up not helping like they think. Molten Disaster has split second so no good there. Also if you get a Stuffy Doll down you can just hit it with all you burn and the damage becomes colorless.
Brandon Scheel won Iowa states with this deck splashing green for Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip in the Sideboard. I watched the finals of this tournament with my own eyes, and I must say, Bill got demolished. Both are friends of mine, so I'll see if I can get that RG Stuffy list.
If not, it will definitely be posted on mtg.com later in the week.
this deck is most assuredly extremely good. i tested it extensively though i decided to run a UW control variant instead (which wasn't bad at all, I went 5-2-1). in retrospect i probably should have gone with this deck considering that my states (NY) had a fairly large number of elf decks.
Molten Disaster isn't half as good as people think it is. It just doesn't matter if a UB deck counters one of your burn spells, they won't counter them all and they won't kill you before you burn them out. Sulfurous Blast is far preferred for the task of clearing out small creatures. It is much more mana efficient and being able to be cast as an instant can lead to blowouts at times.
Mind Stone is superior to Coldsteel Heart despite not being snow. The Heart can only be drawn off of a scrying sheets where as Mind Stone ALWAYS provides an extra draw opportunity. Honestly, the Scrying Sheets engine is just bonus its not worth playing an inferior card just because it is snow.
Rift Bolt and Dead/Gone are in two entirely different categories and I'm not sure why you would compare them. Rift Bolt is the most mana efficient damage source available. Dead/Gone is just creature removal and Skred is better.
Mouth of Ronom might be worth including to assist in killing big Goyfs or Dorans. I have no idea why you're even slightly concerned about killing Teferi. Its just a 3/4 creature for 5 with almost no effect on your game plan. Chandra and Stuffy Doll, however, were very good defenses against big creatures in my testing so I didn't feel that it was necessary to muck up the mana base with Mouth of Ronom. Pro-red creatures aren't a big concern for this deck. Ghostfire is in the sideboard in case I see a Soltari Priest but everything else is easy to handle just by blocking with Ironfoot.
I did test this deck quite a bit and I'm confident that my version is a good one. Maybe the rest of you should try it without Molten Disaster. Its not nearly as good as you think it is.
Molten Disaster seems hard to exclude. So I disaster for 5 with Split Second with Stuffy on the field, opponent takes 10 and there is no board left? I see how blast can be similar for less mana, but disaster has more potential.
this deck is most assuredly extremely good. i tested it extensively though i decided to run a UW control variant instead (which wasn't bad at all, I went 5-2-1). in retrospect i probably should have gone with this deck considering that my states (NY) had a fairly large number of elf decks.
Keldon megaliths/scrying sheets is anti-synergy. Do you want cards in your hand or not?
You want to maximize the number of snow permanents in the deck, to help skred and scrying sheets. That's why coldsteel heart, stalking yeti, and maybe even phyrexian ironfoot should be played.
I would like to know how you plan on beating a U/B control deck with that list. Teferi is pretty bad times, since you have no way of killing it (skreds and chandras will likely be countered). That's why molten disaster and mouth of ronom (also snow) are needed.
So far I like Chad Meyer's list the most, although I would like to find room in there for Stalking Yeti and maybe 1 more land.
Is this thread going to be closed now that there is an official thread?
I hope not. I think that they should merge this into the official thread or make this one the official thread and delete the other. This one has much more content than the official thread does.
Keldon megaliths/scrying sheets is anti-synergy. Do you want cards in your hand or not?
You want to maximize the number of snow permanents in the deck, to help skred and scrying sheets. That's why coldsteel heart, stalking yeti, and maybe even phyrexian ironfoot should be played.
I would like to know how you plan on beating a U/B control deck with that list. Teferi is pretty bad times, since you have no way of killing it (skreds and chandras will likely be countered). That's why molten disaster and mouth of ronom (also snow) are needed.
So far I like Chad Meyer's list the most, although I would like to find room in there for Stalking Yeti and maybe 1 more land.
Scrying Sheets is not anti-synergy with Megaliths since the only cards you ever draw from it are lands, which don't linger in your hand. Its a sub-theme in the deck mostly to support Skred more than anything else, Scrying Sheets itself is not strong enough to include inferior card choices just because they are snow permanents (such as Stalking Yeti over a real burn spell or Coldsteel Heart over Mind Stone). Furthermore, Keldon Megaliths is one of the strongest cards in the deck and its totally unreasonable to play a build without it.
UB control is honestly one of the easiest matchups for this deck, almost any build of the deck for that matter. They simply cannot counter ever single burn spell. You'll get them eventually and long before they have a chance to kill you. Play it out, see for yourself what the matchup is like. You just toss burn at their head all day long and eventually they die. You have enough fire to deal 20 points of damage even if they use every counter in their deck on your burn spells.
I can't understand for a second why anyone would be concerned by Teferi. It a do nothing card against you! Its a 5 mana 3/4 and nothing more. It can stay on the board and you'll still be able to execute your plan without trouble. Most of the UB Teachings decks that were present at my states didn't even include Teferi, thats how marginal the card is in current standard. Its possible to include Mouth of Ronom if you really believe it to be important, but I simply don't.
The hardest matchups by far are against midrange decks with life gain and high toughness creatures. The second hardest matchup is against a faster burn deck (like Rg Greater Goyf). This deck totally crushes all small creature aggro decks and all slow control decks.
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The other day, I played against a mono red snow deck online. I've played decks like this before, and I initially dismissed it as another win. These decks usually tend to be a huge pile of burn that auto loses to discard/permission, or a confused mix of aggro and control that ends up trying for both themes, but ultimately doesn't do either well enough. But the list I played against was pure control, and I got shown up. With the extreme amount of removal in the deck, I can see it having excellent matchups versus virtually every aggro matchup in the Lorwyn Standard environment. Let's look at a list I threw together:
15 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Scrying Sheets
2 Mouth of Ronom
Burn: 20
4 Skred
4 Incinerate
4 Molten Disaster
3 Beacon of Destruction
3 Sudden Shock
2 Disintigrate
4 Stuffy Doll
4 Stalking Yeti
4 Chandra Nalar
Coldsteel Hearts: 4
4 Coldsteel Heart
4 Guerrilla Tactics
4 Martyr of Ashes
4 Detritivore
3 Sudden Impact
This is just a preliminary mockup of the deck; it has not been tweaked or playtested as of yet, it's just something I threw together to represent the archtype. With that said, what do you guys think of it? Granted, it obliterates aggro matchups, especially Kithkin. It should be able to out-burn its opponents with the help of Stuffy Doll and take down opposing creatures that would do harm. The question is: how does it fare against control? Off the bat, I would say it has a negative matchup percentage against blue based control like Cryptic Teachings, because they have draw and you don't. But the fact that you should be able to take down any win condition they lay down should buy you a lot of time to resolve a Chandra or Stuffy Doll, which will whittle them away to nothing.
Oh, and the Sudden Shock is in the deck for the Blink/Mannequin matchups. I've learned that removing a creature that's about to get blinked is a huge gain in tempo, and the Mannequin's ability allows anything it reanimates to die as soon as anything touches it.
Let me know if you guys think this could be a good deck to build in the new standard environment, in the meantime, I'll be testing its matchups.
Akuma will wreck you.
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I completely agree that there needs to be an official thread in competitive.
I would probably move the Martyr of Ashes to main board and kill the Terramorphic Expanses. Scrying Sheets looks like it would be exeptional in this deck I would bump 3 up to a 4 of. I am not sure on Chandra but maybe this is a good deck for it. All in all I can see how this deck can do well. If you can get down a Stuffy Doll then Skred becomes more awesome than it already is in a snow red deck.
My proponent for using Terramorphic Expanses in a mono colored control deck is that they have very little or no downsides. They're really only thinning the deck, and the CIPT will not matter that much, since the burn curve ranges from 1-5. With this said, I don't think we should load up the deck with colorless producing lands, because having a lot of mountains in play is important for Skred. This is why I don't have the 4th Scrying Sheets in here, because any time where you're using more than one Sheets at a time is often more than necessary.
Anyway, why are we arguing over creatures and lands? The most important part of this deck is its burn, we should be discussing the pros and cons of the burn base. In the snow build, I feel 4 Skred, 4 Incinerate, and 4 Molten Disaster are necessary. Anything else is up for debate.
Akuma will wreck you.
You don't need the mountains for a good skred it deal damage for snow permanents not for mountains and scrying sheets is a snow permanent. I think 4 of would be good because though 2 isnt exactly great having 1 is really good and you will want to draw one. It would be very unlucky if you drew all colorless lands and no couldsteel hearts to make a red source. More in favor than out of favor for you in my opninion to run 4 scrying sheets. I dont like the expanses even though they are slight deck thinning. I hate to draw one when I need a land to play something and have to wait an extra turn. Also they are not snow and would be a bunk top card for sheets.
mikey g as for your deck I am not a fan of tarox or going the helion route I think a more so pure control element would work well. Martyr and burn spells to kill enemy creatures as well and to harm your opponent. Molten disaster is pure awesome in this deck and stuffy doll fits in pretty nice even with its 5cc it is still a house here. Skred plays off all the snow permanents, Stalking yeti to take down creatures your oponent is playing after you clear his side of the board with martyr (idealistic thinking). Also Chanadra for a plainswalker that is left unanswer is a game winner in itself.
I don't think you have played a planeswalker yet.
Chandra is insane board control. I'd rank it almost as good as stuffy doll in this deck
1)its incredibly difficult to get rid of(7+ damage(if a deck is capable of doing this amount of damage i wouldn't understand why they just wouldn't aim it at you), oblivion ring, and Pithing needle are the only ways i can think of)
2) In 3 turns it can deal 12 damage and wipe your opponents board. In 4 it can do 13 and can keep on going with 1 damage a turn.
3)1 damage a turn is the same as stuffy doll
Pyroclasms are good sb material but i don't think they fit the md unless token decks or kitchkin decks become a big problem in the meta(which i doubt), plus Martyr fills that role(flyers aren't too big in standard) and provides a chump for a goyf.
I agree with you on your other card choices though.
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Dstorm died earlier than that and red can disrupt dredge. That leaves only the warrens/grapeshot storm combo decks.
the deck is fun to play, but it can have problems with a swarm of flyers, since its board sweepers deal with non-flyers only. this is solved by pyroclasm in the board though, but im wondering whether sulfurous blast maindeck would be a good addition.
one last thing: anyone know of other ways to get rid of annoying epochrasites for good? disintegrate works but i'd rather save those for ending the game.
In the little bit of testing I've done, you win the game against blue based control if you can resolve Stuffy Doll or Chandra. This isn't that easy because they're both kinda costly, but it really is the difference in the game if you get them to stick. Molten Disaster with kicker is your best friend against control, and it's not horrible against Goblins or Kithkin either.
Question: Does Hostility have a place in this deck? On one hand, he transforms every burn spell into a monster, capable of dealing insane amounts of damage in a turn. He can also unexpectedly crash in for 6, and he can't really die. On the other hand, any deck that can deal with 3/1's makes Hostility's ability (heh..rhymes) into a drawback, since the deck is basically one big burn spell. That, and Hostility doesn't really have any synergy with the already existing win conditions of Stuffy Doll or Chandra, especially because he's upping the curve if included in the deck with them. So I say it's either Stuffy Doll or Hostility, in which Stuffy wins with mad crazy synergy with Skred.
And could we please get a competitive thread going? The deck had a great showing at States, it's proven itself to be competitive.
Akuma will wreck you.
I'd like to see one of them before I can make a judgement on whether it was a meta-beater, or just a good deck.
I really like the concept of it.
If not, it will definitely be posted on mtg.com later in the week.
this is the version i would have played.
4 Incinerate
4 Rift Bolt
2 Disintegrate
4 Skred
4 Pyroclasm
2 Sulfurous Blast
4 Chandra Nalaar
4 Phyrexian Ironfoot
4 Stuffy Doll
mana sources
4 Mind Stone
4 Keldon Megaliths
4 Scrying Sheets
16 Snow-Covered Mountains
4 Pithing Needle
2 Disintegrate
2 Sulfurous Blast
4 Bottle Gnomes
3 Ghostfire
Mind Stone is superior to Coldsteel Heart despite not being snow. The Heart can only be drawn off of a scrying sheets where as Mind Stone ALWAYS provides an extra draw opportunity. Honestly, the Scrying Sheets engine is just bonus its not worth playing an inferior card just because it is snow.
Rift Bolt and Dead/Gone are in two entirely different categories and I'm not sure why you would compare them. Rift Bolt is the most mana efficient damage source available. Dead/Gone is just creature removal and Skred is better.
Mouth of Ronom might be worth including to assist in killing big Goyfs or Dorans. I have no idea why you're even slightly concerned about killing Teferi. Its just a 3/4 creature for 5 with almost no effect on your game plan. Chandra and Stuffy Doll, however, were very good defenses against big creatures in my testing so I didn't feel that it was necessary to muck up the mana base with Mouth of Ronom. Pro-red creatures aren't a big concern for this deck. Ghostfire is in the sideboard in case I see a Soltari Priest but everything else is easy to handle just by blocking with Ironfoot.
I did test this deck quite a bit and I'm confident that my version is a good one. Maybe the rest of you should try it without Molten Disaster. Its not nearly as good as you think it is.
Keldon megaliths/scrying sheets is anti-synergy. Do you want cards in your hand or not?
You want to maximize the number of snow permanents in the deck, to help skred and scrying sheets. That's why coldsteel heart, stalking yeti, and maybe even phyrexian ironfoot should be played.
I would like to know how you plan on beating a U/B control deck with that list. Teferi is pretty bad times, since you have no way of killing it (skreds and chandras will likely be countered). That's why molten disaster and mouth of ronom (also snow) are needed.
So far I like Chad Meyer's list the most, although I would like to find room in there for Stalking Yeti and maybe 1 more land.
I hope not. I think that they should merge this into the official thread or make this one the official thread and delete the other. This one has much more content than the official thread does.
Scrying Sheets is not anti-synergy with Megaliths since the only cards you ever draw from it are lands, which don't linger in your hand. Its a sub-theme in the deck mostly to support Skred more than anything else, Scrying Sheets itself is not strong enough to include inferior card choices just because they are snow permanents (such as Stalking Yeti over a real burn spell or Coldsteel Heart over Mind Stone). Furthermore, Keldon Megaliths is one of the strongest cards in the deck and its totally unreasonable to play a build without it.
UB control is honestly one of the easiest matchups for this deck, almost any build of the deck for that matter. They simply cannot counter ever single burn spell. You'll get them eventually and long before they have a chance to kill you. Play it out, see for yourself what the matchup is like. You just toss burn at their head all day long and eventually they die. You have enough fire to deal 20 points of damage even if they use every counter in their deck on your burn spells.
I can't understand for a second why anyone would be concerned by Teferi. It a do nothing card against you! Its a 5 mana 3/4 and nothing more. It can stay on the board and you'll still be able to execute your plan without trouble. Most of the UB Teachings decks that were present at my states didn't even include Teferi, thats how marginal the card is in current standard. Its possible to include Mouth of Ronom if you really believe it to be important, but I simply don't.
The hardest matchups by far are against midrange decks with life gain and high toughness creatures. The second hardest matchup is against a faster burn deck (like Rg Greater Goyf). This deck totally crushes all small creature aggro decks and all slow control decks.