Welcome to Cat Mafia, the game where every player has claws attached.
The Living (4)
4. Andelijah, The Cheshire Cat, Townie Illusion, Endgamed.
7. ZasZ234, Keto The Black Cat, Townie Bad-luck Charm, Endgamed
9. J-Effe IV, The King Cheetah, Vanilla Townie, Endgamed.
The Dead (9)
Mr Bigglesworth, Megalomaniac Mayor, Found butchered during Pregame Xyre, Jester Cat, Mafia Redirector/Roleblocker, Electrocuted Day 1 Cubus, Ninja Cat, Townie Tracker, Exploded Night 1 RafaelK, Ceiling Cat, Townie Watcher, Sniped Night 1 Jerubbaal, The Rottweiler, Mafia Dogfather, Asphyxiated Day 2 Bertrand, The Fat Tabby, Vanilla Townie, Sniped Night 2 ZDS, Sniper Kitty, Townie Vigilante, Defenestrated Night 2 GiftsTrix, The Kittybread, Townie Doctor, Made deliciously Crispy, Day 3 IHCharm Master, The Cat-Girl, Townie Motivator/Roleblocker, Crucified Night 3 Alx2, The Russian, Mafia Assassin, death results in Town win, Day 4. Replacements
1. Charm Master
2. DragonDart
3. Niv Votecount tally
Rules (stolen from Puzzle):
1. Bold your votes and unvotes please, this makes it easier for me. they should look like this: Vote: DYH
2. Any votes or unvotes not in bold will not be counted.
3. Do not communicate at night or day unless your role PM says otherwise.
4. Do not quote PMs or I will have to modkill you. Any use of PM style information may result in the same. If unsure, ask first. Also do not request someone to quote their PM, try to make use of PM time stamps, or anything of that nature. Also, no invisitext.
5. Unvote before casting a new vote. Failure to unvote may result in the vote not being counted.
6. You may Vote: No lynch, and a majority of these votes will end the day without a death.
7. Please do not edit or delete your posts no matter how stupid a mistake you made. This will get you replaced, guaranteed.
8. Once you’re dead, you’re dead, so stop posting please. Not even a "bah".
9. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 72-hour period, please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Else, you may be prodded and subsequently replaced.
10. If you have a night choice to make, it is due by the posted deadline. I will not wait for you – if you do not submit a choice to me, tough! No choice will be made. Night will end when the deadline is reached or all actions have been received.
11. Lynches will require a simple majority of votes. Once a player has reached the necessary majority, his pleas are useless and any attempts to unvote will be unheeded.
12. If you are requesting anything from me in-thread, please bold the request or my name.
13. We all want this game to keep moving so I expect everyone to post at least once every two to three days and if you don't, you will get one prod before I replace you.
14. HAVE FUN!
15. Lastly and most importantly. Respect me and the rest of the players, I hope I do not have to modkill anyone again. (If you are modkilled, you lose.)
Deadlines:
Deadlines will be imposed when activity slows, and may be retracted as I see fit. However, expect days to last no more than three weeks, and nights 72 hours.
If a majority lynch is not reached by the deadline, it will result in a No Lynch.
The Town's Win condition: "You win with the town, when all of the anti-town factions have been destroyed"
'Twas a cold, miserable winter's night in Kittyville for the Mayor as he waited, long white fur coated in a fine layer of frost, at the appointed time and place - the Kittyville national park.
Rubbing his paws together, the stroppy-yet-regal face of Mr Bigglesworth looked warily from side to side.
His contacts would arrive any second, and they were NOT going to like what he was going to tell them.
After about another quarter hour, several dark shapes appeared, walking single file.
Mr Bigglesworth took a deep breath, feeling the cool air of the night enter into his feline lungs. Breathing out, the Mayor of Kittyville stood up, and padded quietly toward the figures. Quietly toward his death.
The next day, several residents of Kittyville found the Mayor's mangled corpse, floating head-down in the fountain on Feline Street - right in front of the Mayor's office.
...And the fountain ran red with blood.
Yes, Mr. Bigglesworth, the Megalomaniacal Mayor has been MURDERED!
Many of the residents of Kittyville (12, to be exact) have gathered in his office. Most are determined to discover just who would have the brazen recklessness required to take out such an awesome figurehead of power in their small communitee. But some of the creatures gathered there are not trying to solve the mystery - they are merely there to decide who is next.
"Meeeooow" Trix yawns and stretches. It's been a long night and his fur is obviously ruffled at the current events. He rests his head on his paws and closes his eyes.
Why, exactly?
I agree. I won't roleplay any more, and I suggest no one does. I've gotten fairly townish reads on ZDS and Zas right now though, because of it.
After one roleplaying post?
As for roleplaying, I'm not going to because I don't know my cat well enough to do so properly.
Vote : Bertrand. Last game we were both in, he had the same role as me with the opposite alignment. Since I'm town in this game, then he's scum.
Flawless logic.
What game was that? I usually remember my games here well (they're the best!)
Gee, I'm hungry. Aren't we all?
The first letter of every post in this paragraph spells B*HIVFWGT. This is certainly not a hint of any sort.
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Whether this is a joke or not, I am having a difficult time seeing how this is a pro-town move. I actually saw it once in a game on MS, and I think it was the serial killer. This move confuses the hell out of me.
Hey all, there will be no flavor forthcoming from me. I don't even do smileys. I might actually vote for overdoing the flavor if I didn't think there was actually something to go on at this point. It's certainly not a strong tell or anything, but scum are quite often deliberately chatty at the beginning of the game. This Xyre thing is really fishy and, in any way you cut it, stupid.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
Seems I was feeling in Bert's HIV bones. These are his none HIV bones.
In all seriousness though, I don't like Jerrubal auto voting for Xyre for a daykill. It's usually more common that a day killer is town. I'm just saying it was a good excuse for a vote without thinking through the implications. While this isn't exactly a tell for scum, it is telling that he isn't thinking things through, and possibly just looking for an easy lynch.
Also, what game on scum did you see a day killing SK? Those are pretty rare, especially ones that work through a bolded daykill.
Why, exactly?
I agree. I won't roleplay any more, and I suggest no one does. I've gotten fairly townish reads on ZDS and Zas right now though, because of it.
After one roleplaying post?
I'm still interested in the response to that, by the way.
Whether this is a joke or not, I am having a difficult time seeing how this is a pro-town move.
But is it a anti-town move? Most posts in the random vote stage aren't pro-town. I fail to see how a fake daykill is any worse than the various fake votes at the moment.
Isn't that terribly WIFOMy? Like, anyone who roleplays is a townie? It also kind of looks like ulterior motive since you roleplayed in your first post as well.
Honestly, I've never actually read a game where anyone could legitimately day-kill (I only actually have one completed game under my belt). I read one game one time where someone tried a fake day-kill to lure out a certain response, and I thought it was a really asinine thing to do, as you're floating in the grey area of what's allowed by the rules. It was a game with a bunch of newbies, and when the guy claimed DK, everyone just kinda stopped and said, "Well, what do we do now? Are you actually dead?" Some people actually said some really dumb things in response to it, and I thought it undermined the integrity of the game from there in.
It just seemed like taking a step beyond random voting which was unnecessary. Maybe I just need to loosen up. If it's essentially just a random vote, something to start discussion and make a joke, then I guess I'm ok with that. Balls of wool aren't that scary.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
There's a quaint difference between a reaction and an overreaction, and jerubbal has portrayed the latter, in my mind. He's supposed to laugh it off as a townie. Although I suppose his excuse of a lack of knowledge, while not justifying it, might explain it. It's another piece of information to use later.
The Cubus/andelijah interaction a few posts back is interesting. I'd like to see Cubus' reaction.
You may be a master, ZDS, but I'm no servant. That is the last time I will say this. ZasZ may look suspicious to me, but not nearly as much as Andelijah does. Even though he did not said much, I don't get a nice cat feeling from him. I don't know, the questionning towards Cubus seems forced.
Why, exactly?
I agree. I won't roleplay any more, and I suggest no one does. I've gotten fairly townish reads on ZDS and Zas right now though, because of it.
"I got townish reads of ZDS and Zas because of [the roleplaying]."
I said I had a fairly townish read on those posts, because I don't think a scum would make them. I can't exactly tell you why, as roleplaying isn't townish per se, but the posts give me good vibes.
"Roleplaying isn't necessarily townish, but it gives me townie vibes."
That's contradictory...
Your master says improvised roleplaying is often the sign of a relaxed mind, to which he adds it is believed townies are more likely to be calm than scums (though this depends entirely on playstyles and quality of plays). Therefore, what the good servant Cubus is saying is perfectly explainable as a simple psychological tendency most of us have to believe the above.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't spoon feed Cubus his answers. Thanks.
I literally said that roleplaying isn't townish per se. So don't tell me I implied anyone who roleplays is a townie. Because I'm not saying roleplaying is townish per definition, my statement is also not a case of WIFOM. Things aren't as black and white as you're painting them.
As the master said, improvised roleplaying is often an indication of a relaxed mind, and in this case, I believe ZDS and Zas are relaxed because they are town. I wouldn't want to clear them based on that, but that's how I currently feel about it.
You can't have it both ways. Either you got townish vibes off people for roleplaying, or roleplaying isn't "townish per se." This is a direct contradiction.
I forgot to adress this part. You're right that it may seem like an ulterior motive. However, being an ulterior motive could be suspected of basically any opinion or action, simply because people play in a certain way because they're town/attempt to look like town. If anyone would play somewhat like you, you'd be a total hypocrite if you'd think they were scum because of their play.
Right, but you're trying to hard to make it look like you're town because two other people took the same action that is giving you "townish vibes."
You may be a master, ZDS, but I'm no servant. That is the last time I will say this. ZasZ may look suspicious to me, but not nearly as much as Andelijah does. Even though he did not said much, I don't get a nice cat feeling from him. I don't know, the questionning towards Cubus seems forced.
Honestly, I've never actually read a game where anyone could legitimately day-kill (I only actually have one completed game under my belt). I read one game one time where someone tried a fake day-kill to lure out a certain response, and I thought it was a really asinine thing to do, as you're floating in the grey area of what's allowed by the rules. It was a game with a bunch of newbies, and when the guy claimed DK, everyone just kinda stopped and said, "Well, what do we do now? Are you actually dead?" Some people actually said some really dumb things in response to it, and I thought it undermined the integrity of the game from there in.
Wait I thought you claimed that you read a game where an SK did it. Here you just call him some guy. You also claim that you knew it was faked, if the above is correct.
Quote from "Andelijah" »
"Roleplaying isn't necessarily townish, but it gives me townie vibes."
That's contradictory...
How? Just because Roleplaying isn't a "town tell" it can give someone 'vibes'
It is not a contradiction. A contradiction would be "It isn't necessarily townish, but is townish" Just because an action isn't intrinscally townish, doesn't mean it can't indicate to someone that they are townie. FoS:Andelijah
Also, what Cubus said.
Cubus got townish reads from ZDS' and Zas' roleplaying posts.
Ande strawmans that Cubus said all roleplaying is town and that Cubus was trying to use that to clear himself = scummy, and that Cubus was contradicting himself, and so on.
Ande's trying too hard to get a wagon going.
vote Andelijah
In other news, obviously Daykills Are Serious Business, but I've seen negative reactions to fake daykills before and I have no idea whether jerubbaal is normally so high strung.
Oh, and, I don't care if I'm "spoon feeding" answers to him.
I do, if Cubus can't answer a question, you shouldn't be helping him. The fact that he immediately latches onto your answer is telling me he didn't have a better answer.
It is not a contradiction. A contradiction would be "It isn't necessarily townish, but is townish"
How is this not what he said? He said roleplaying is not townish per se, but he's getting a town read from people who are doing it. That is exactly the same as "It isn't necessarily townish, but is townish."
Just because an action isn't intrinscally townish, doesn't mean it can't indicate to someone that they are townie.
Erm, how does that work? Someone does something that is not townish, but someone else gets a town read from it?
Quote from ZDS »
I meant to ask, what from what you said tells you're "trying to make it look like your town".
Cubus called roleplaying a townie tell (or vibes, or whatever). Cubus roleplayed. Please don't make me do the math.
Cubus got townish reads from ZDS' and Zas' roleplaying posts.
Ande strawmans that Cubus said all roleplaying is town and that Cubus was trying to use that to clear himself = scummy, and that Cubus was contradicting himself, and so on.
First off, its not a strawman. How is there a townish read from ZDS and Zas unless all [good/non-HE7] roleplaying is town. If all roleplaying is not inherently townie, then Cubus is using other knowledge to get those townie vibes. And other knowledge is rarely a good thing.
Saying that I'm only suspicious of Cubus because he tried to clear himself is also a strawman of me. My suspicion comes almost entirely from the fact that Cubus is clearing people off of posts without any content, or anything that should give him reason to clear them.
Ande's trying too hard to get a wagon going.
A little. I tend to do that to people I think are likely to be scum. People gave me that same argument in Kung Fu against lynching you or Kenji.
I agree. I won't roleplay any more, and I suggest no one does. I've gotten fairly townish reads on ZDS and Zas right now though, because of it.
What I find odd about this post isn't the 'contradiction' that ande pointed out. Rather the idea that something (i.e. roleplaying) can give information, give you a read, then you suggest no one does it anymore. If it's a source of information shouldn't you suggest people pursue it?
It's not logical, it's a gut feeling. What do you think he meant by "vibes"?
I thought he meant "I have other reasons to believe they are town," which generally means that Cubus would be scum.
Its just that, personally, I have trouble believing a) Cubus getting townie vibes from something inherently neutral and b) Cubus expressing those vibes after those players have done nothing except that inherently neutral thing. He preempts any of their real game play with "they look townie to me." And that leaves me wondering: why?
[font=georgia](@Bertrand -> I was talking about Blood Moon)[/font]
I was so confused in that game... who won?
jerubball's post seems... weird to me. I'm not sure what it means. Something about it just seems insincere. Maybe it's the fact that he says it's can't be protown, when there's no more way it could be "proscum".. or the way his introduction (or proclaimed lack of one) followed the vote..
That defense also reeks of "let's move on and pretend that never happened" (which isn't necessarily a bad thing either).. he also flipflops, saying now that he's OK with it, just after saying it couldn't possibly be protown. It seems to be an attempt to bland in and agree with the mass. Like:
"That was scummy, and in no way protown"
"You're overreacting"
"Oh, I guess it's fint then"
[font=georgia][font=georgia][font=georgia]Your master would also likes to remind his servants of how scummy ZasZ's half-assed barning in post #20, covered in a pile of spam and of spam about spam (the worst kind of spam) so that it will not be noticed, was.
I'm not sure what you mean here, likely because I don't remember what "barning" means..
Reads/Guesses: Xyre tried to get the game going.
andelijah is arguing with Cubus for the sake of it.
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Wait I thought you claimed that you read a game where an SK did it. Here you just call him some guy. You also claim that you knew it was faked, if the above is correct.
Yeah, when I joined on MS, I tried to read a bunch of games to figure out how stuff worked. One game, the guy who turned out to be the SK did what Xyre did here, post a fake daykill (the poster's name was Oman, don't remember what the thread was, somewhere in mini-normal, just in case anyone really feels the need to verify this whole thing). I was not involved in the game at all, just reading it after-the-fact, so of course I had all the info. When Oman did it, it wasn't so much as a joke as a really asinine way to confuse people and try to get someone to make a mistake.
Bertrand, it's safe to say that I missed the joke. Not realizing that I missed the joke would make me an idiot. I'm new, but not stupid.
The role-playing is cute and I enjoy reading it, but it doesn't seem to necessarily lean my evaluation toward townie. Scum seem to act rather chummy in the early game, and humor is one of the ways to accomplish that. Regardless, most of the time it's a personality thing, and some people just like joking around more than others. Whether ZDS is one of those people, others may be able to confirm (as he seems to be the one RPing the most).
I find that a lot of Andelijah's reasoning about Cubus' statements is fairly on target. He points out a lot of posts in which Cubus comes rather close to contradicting himself. At the very least, Cubus' statements on the matter are unclear. Vague reasoning is unhelpful, at best. I would like a clearer and more condensed statement which clarifies your whole view on this role-playing thing.
Its just that, personally, I have trouble believing a) Cubus getting townie vibes from something inherently neutral and b) Cubus expressing those vibes after those players have done nothing except that inherently neutral thing. He preempts any of their real game play with "they look townie to me." And that leaves me wondering: why?
This strikes me as a pretty good post. Cubus seems to be waffling between saying that RPing is neutral or somewhat townie, but he's happy to use it to justify his townie "vibes" from ZDS and ZasZ. Andelijah's logic seems quite a bit more coherent than Cubus' at this point. The point by point approach he has been taking in his posts seems thorough and generally well thought out.
(Quick aside, it takes me years to put together posts with any significant amount of quotes in them, is there a trick to the whole mess which I just haven't figured out yet? This is just my general forum ineptitude, but if anyone can help me out on this, it would be greatly appreciated)
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
Casting an eerie luminescence across the room, the mauled ghost of Mayor Bigglesworth appears, and tallies the first votecount. In an official voice, he solemnly intones: The "omg we're only 67 posts in" votecount
11: Cubus, following Grakthis, says he won't roleplay anymore to avoid revealing info, but says that he's gotten townish reads off of ZDS and ZasZ from roleplaying.
19: andelijah wonders how he figured out the town reads off one post. Follows it up with post 40 because C failed to respond.
42: C gives a fairly indefinite response, saying that, while roleplaying isn't townish, a scum wouldn't make the posts. Huh.
Analysis: Both players are arguing flawed points. Cubus is, in my mind, trying to avoid looking foolish for a contradiction-in-nature of his first post, where he justifies previous roleplaying and argues against further roleplaying. Andelijah, however, has turned this into something of a semantics debate over whether there is a contradiction in Cubus' posts with regards to scumminess. The contradiction he gets, however, is really just an internal conflict in 42, which sounds like Cubus trying to finagle his way around things.
As andelijah rightly pointed out, Cubus can't really justify his townish feelings from ZDS and Zas, although I wouldn't say this is scummy. The right course of action, of course, is to ask him. Cubus, why do you think ZDS and Zas are town? Be as specific and self-referential as possible.
Andelijah, in the meantime, rather than ask him said question, makes a straw man out of Cubus' bizarre justification and uses this to pursue him, which seems like the main reason why people are voting for him. I can understand this, and andelijah definitely needs to provide answers. I'll wait on that before deciding whether to vote.
Ok, caught up. In the great andelijah/Cubus debate, I'll have to actually vote Cubus. Not because I agree with andelijah's arguments (he's stretching a non-existant distinction between "townie" and "town-vibes"), but because of this post by GiftsTrix, which IMO hits the nail on the head. If something gives you town vibes, why stop it so forcefully? Why not observe some more?
Instead, Cubus just sort of threw out very quickly, "oh, they're townish, let's not RP any more".
What in ZDS' and Zas' roleplaying posts made me believe they were town?
First of all, I'd like to make clear that what I said was that the roleplaying posts by ZDS and Zas gave me a townish feeling. Feelings, much like gut, are hard to justify completely. I'll try to explain what exactly gave me that feeling, though.
Both their posts are somehow drawing attention to them. I don't see why a scum would want to do that this early, especially because we hardly had a 'real' random phase. Not only that, but they also reveal ap art of their character's personality in their posts, which restricts them in what they would be able to claim later. I think the posts reflected a certain.. state of mind that I'd rather see being a townie's than of a scum. That's why I got the feeling.
I'm taking it that this is your concise version of your reasons which I asked for, and Xyre echoed as well. You seem to suggest 3 different reasons why you think the early roleplaying by ZDS and ZasZ was fairly townie.
1) Drawing attention to themselves early (I don't find this convincing at all. If anything roleplaying is a way of keeping your activity high without providing much in the way of content. Drawing attention early is usually a safe move when you're scum, as you don't mind taking a bit of heat when the possibility of a lynch is low.)
2) They are revealing their character, which limits what they can claim later. (Honestly, this confuses me. Personality certainly does not limit official claims, such as cop or doc. What claims are you talking about here?)
3) That these posts evidenced a certain frame of mind which you would rather see in townie than scum. (Frankly, I don't care if you would like to see it in townies. In my [brief] experience, scum actually tend to be calmer than townies, probably because they have a fuller knowledge of the gamestate. Townies are generally in a state of much less certainty.)
None of these arguments really hold up, so it ends up seeming like you're just saying that RPing seems townie with no backing. When people called you out for saying that RPing is townie (which you didn't say explicitly, but your sentiment that ZDS and ZasZ were town seemed to rise from their RPing, so it was strongly implied), you said that you didn't think RPing was inherently townie. All this seems to leave you with no ground to stand upon for your assertion that ZDS and ZasZ seemed townie. The question then remains, if you had no good reason to say it, why did you say it? I am very suspicious of "feelings" or "gut instincts" that have absolutely no backing.
I don't see any problem with a PBPA at this point in the debate. They're almost always useful for clarifying the points or at least bringing out misunderstandings, even in the middle of a debate.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
Why would you want to get me lynched for not wording my answers very well, despite being right?
Not wording your opinions very well, which means they weren't good opinions to begin with. Needing help to explain your thoughts is rarely good.
I never said I got a town read from people roleplaying, and I even gave examples of cases where I don't. I said "It isn't necessarily townish, but, in this case, their roleplaying strikes me as townish". That is in no way the same, and I believe I explained that quite well already. To repeat: Stop putting words in my mouth.
I'm not putting words in your mouth. How is this roleplaying any different than other people roleplaying? I see no difference. So why is this roleplaying giving you townie vibes but other roleplaying doesn't?
Mafiascum Wiki:
Straw man: A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. It usually involves subtle changes to the given facts of the matter, or minor changes to wording that lead to semantic differences in what is said.
Cubus: The way ZDS and Zas roleplayed makes me believe they're town.
Andelijah: You said roleplaying is always town!
'The way ZDS and Zas roleplayed makes me believe they're town' =/= 'ZDS and Zas are town because they roleplayed'
My point is, there is nothing special about the way ZDS and Zas roleplayed. So if roleplaying is not usually townish, it doesn't make any sense to me how you would get townish vibes.
Conclusion: Andelijah mischaracterized Cubus' argument -> Andelijah is strawmanning.
I never said all good/non-HE7 roleplay was town. Those were examples of situations were roleplay was not town. I never said those were the only examples, and you are yet again misrepresenting me.
So andelijah mischaracterized Cubus' argument to make it make logical sense. You're arguing something that doesn't make logical sense. I'm pretty sure that's not strawmanning. In fact, had you said that roleplaying is generally townish, I might have disagreed with the statement, but wouldn't be arguing with you about it. You said it isn't generally townish though, but declared basic, generic roleplaying to give you townie vibes.
RafK never said it was the only reason you suspected me. He said it was a reason, and that that reason was wrong, but he never said it was the only one. You're also yet flat out lying. I literally said I didn't clear them at all, but yet you're saying I did here.
You literally said you got town reads from them. That's as clearing as its going to get after 1 post by them. Just because you tried to say "No I didn't" now doesn't change the fact that you did before.
'vibes' are feelings. Vibes are never based on actual knowledge. This is completely nonsense.
a) Nothing is inherently neutral. As I said, hardly anything in mafia clearly indicated mafia or town, and neither does roleplaying. However, that doesn't mean it can't cause anyone to believe the person doing it is town or scum.
I don't understand you. First you say roleplaying isn't townish per se, now you say it isn't inherently neutral. What is it, scummy?
b) Why exactly would it be bad to express my feelings, if I got them? I also didn't preempt any of their real play. I had, at that moment, a townish read of them, because of their posts up to that point. That doesn't mean I cleared them, or that I wouldn't be able to change my mind anymore because of their later play.
They had one to two posts each, during the random vote stage. Calling them townie is definitely before any of their real play.
Vote Andelijah
Enough other people did it for you to feel comfortable?
For the record, my guts tell me Andelijah is a townie who caught himself in a bad, bad argument.
That, or he's so bad at being scum my guts won't let me believe it.
Both their posts are somehow drawing attention to them. I don't see why a scum would want to do that this early, especially because we hardly had a 'real' random phase.
Rafk was the only one out of the 5 people posting at the time not roleplaying. How did they draw attention to themselves?
Not only that, but they also reveal ap art of their character's personality in their posts, which restricts them in what they would be able to claim later.
Subclaiming = townie. I'll keep that in mind for later.
I think the posts reflected a certain.. state of mind that I'd rather see being a townie's than of a scum. That's why I got the feeling.
I'm there. Just passing to say that Andelijah's explanation is not satisfactory enough for me. I maintain my vote.
JF4: "I don't know, the questionning towards Cubus seems forced."
andelijah: "How so?"
JF4: "Just passing to say [your] explanation is not satisfactory enough for me."
Yeah, when I joined on MS, I tried to read a bunch of games to figure out how stuff worked. One game, the guy who turned out to be the SK did what Xyre did here, post a fake daykill (the poster's name was Oman, don't remember what the thread was, somewhere in mini-normal, just in case anyone really feels the need to verify this whole thing). I was not involved in the game at all, just reading it after-the-fact, so of course I had all the info. When Oman did it, it wasn't so much as a joke as a really asinine way to confuse people and try to get someone to make a mistake.
You imply here you knew it was faked. I have a hard time buying that.
I dislike Alx's Cubus vote.
Quote from "Ande" »
Not wording your opinions very well, which means they weren't good opinions to begin with. Needing help to explain your thoughts is rarely good.
Kay, this guy is scummier than Jerubbal. I'm unsure how many votes he has atm, so I'm going to abstain from voting, but just because someone hasn't worded their opinions well doesn't mean they "were'nt good opinions to begin with". Some things are just hard to explain. If you're scum, die, if you're town, look at your arguments and think about what you're saying. How are you relating this to alignment? That the two he declared town are both his scum buddies? That he's arbitrarily buddying up to two players?
Welcome to Cat Mafia, the game where every player has claws attached.
The Living (4)
4. Andelijah, The Cheshire Cat, Townie Illusion, Endgamed.
7. ZasZ234, Keto The Black Cat, Townie Bad-luck Charm, Endgamed
9. J-Effe IV, The King Cheetah, Vanilla Townie, Endgamed.
The Dead (9)
Mr Bigglesworth, Megalomaniac Mayor, Found butchered during Pregame
Xyre, Jester Cat, Mafia Redirector/Roleblocker, Electrocuted Day 1
Cubus, Ninja Cat, Townie Tracker, Exploded Night 1
RafaelK, Ceiling Cat, Townie Watcher, Sniped Night 1
Jerubbaal, The Rottweiler, Mafia Dogfather, Asphyxiated Day 2
Bertrand, The Fat Tabby, Vanilla Townie, Sniped Night 2
ZDS, Sniper Kitty, Townie Vigilante, Defenestrated Night 2
GiftsTrix, The Kittybread, Townie Doctor, Made deliciously Crispy, Day 3
IHCharm Master, The Cat-Girl, Townie Motivator/Roleblocker, Crucified Night 3Alx2, The Russian, Mafia Assassin, death results in Town win, Day 4.
Replacements
1.
Charm Master2. DragonDart
3. Niv
Votecount tally
Votecount 1.1, the ghostly mayor's appearance...
Votecount 1.2, Mr. Bigglesworth hates noisy cats...but silent cats even more...
Votecount 1.3, A taiser and a cold storage device...
Votecount 1.4, No rest for the wicked...
Final Day one votecount and Lynch scene, "The death of the comedian"
Day Two, two investigators dead?!?
Votecount 2.1, As funny as a ruptured spleen...
Final Day two votecount and lynch scene. "The expiry date of the Dogfather has come"
Final Day three votecount and lynch scene. "Truly, a delicacy within the cat world"
Day 4 - Save the Cat Girls! SAVE THEM!
With 4 Alive, it is THREE to lynch.
MEOW!
Rubbing his paws together, the stroppy-yet-regal face of Mr Bigglesworth looked warily from side to side.
His contacts would arrive any second, and they were NOT going to like what he was going to tell them.
After about another quarter hour, several dark shapes appeared, walking single file.
Mr Bigglesworth took a deep breath, feeling the cool air of the night enter into his feline lungs. Breathing out, the Mayor of Kittyville stood up, and padded quietly toward the figures. Quietly toward his death.
The next day, several residents of Kittyville found the Mayor's mangled corpse, floating head-down in the fountain on Feline Street - right in front of the Mayor's office.
...And the fountain ran red with blood.
Yes, Mr. Bigglesworth, the Megalomaniacal Mayor has been MURDERED!
Many of the residents of Kittyville (12, to be exact) have gathered in his office. Most are determined to discover just who would have the brazen recklessness required to take out such an awesome figurehead of power in their small communitee. But some of the creatures gathered there are not trying to solve the mystery - they are merely there to decide who is next.
Day one BEGINS!
With 12 Alive, it is SEVEN to lynch.
"Vote:cubus for holding us up."
This cat holds a grudge
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Don't get so caught up in roleplaying that you give anything away about your character that you don't mean to.
Vote ZDS because I like his flawless logic.
ZDS Die scum die!
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Vote:Zds Now....
die scum die!
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Alpha male. Whatever. J-Effe IV scratches ZDS' leg.
After one roleplaying post?
As for roleplaying, I'm not going to because I don't know my cat well enough to do so properly.
Anyways, Vote: Rafk
I'm going to get you this game.
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*burp*
Hii.
I am going to random vote the first person to tell me I should have random voted in my first post. Or someone else I feel like.
What game was that? I usually remember my games here well (they're the best!)
Gee, I'm hungry. Aren't we all?
The first letter of every post in this paragraph spells B*HIVFWGT. This is certainly not a hint of any sort.
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Just a joke.
Unvote
/sarcasm and jokes.
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Crap, I thought it was more subtle than that. Oh well, I better go on a killing spree now!
Hey, look! A fly! Mussst.. reach...
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This guy is scum. I can feel it in Bert's bones.
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Daykill IH
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Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
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Whether this is a joke or not, I am having a difficult time seeing how this is a pro-town move. I actually saw it once in a game on MS, and I think it was the serial killer. This move confuses the hell out of me.
Hey all, there will be no flavor forthcoming from me. I don't even do smileys. I might actually vote for overdoing the flavor if I didn't think there was actually something to go on at this point. It's certainly not a strong tell or anything, but scum are quite often deliberately chatty at the beginning of the game. This Xyre thing is really fishy and, in any way you cut it, stupid.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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He RAWRS in bestial fury, and, grabbing the first object at hand, hurls it at IH as hard as he possibly can.
A ball of wool hits IH in between the eyes.
IH might now be mildly irritated.
With 12 Alive, it's still SEVEN to lynch.
Carry on.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Meow.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Anyway, jerubbal wins the "overreaction-to-joke-fake-daykill" prize of the day.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Seems I was feeling in Bert's HIV bones. These are his none HIV bones.
In all seriousness though, I don't like Jerrubal auto voting for Xyre for a daykill. It's usually more common that a day killer is town. I'm just saying it was a good excuse for a vote without thinking through the implications. While this isn't exactly a tell for scum, it is telling that he isn't thinking things through, and possibly just looking for an easy lynch.
Also, what game on scum did you see a day killing SK? Those are pretty rare, especially ones that work through a bolded daykill.
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I'm still interested in the response to that, by the way.
But is it a anti-town move? Most posts in the random vote stage aren't pro-town. I fail to see how a fake daykill is any worse than the various fake votes at the moment.
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As am I.
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It just seemed like taking a step beyond random voting which was unnecessary. Maybe I just need to loosen up. If it's essentially just a random vote, something to start discussion and make a joke, then I guess I'm ok with that. Balls of wool aren't that scary.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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FOS jerubbal
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
The Cubus/andelijah interaction a few posts back is interesting. I'd like to see Cubus' reaction.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Vote andelijah.
You may be a master, ZDS, but I'm no servant. That is the last time I will say this. ZasZ may look suspicious to me, but not nearly as much as Andelijah does. Even though he did not said much, I don't get a nice cat feeling from him. I don't know, the questionning towards Cubus seems forced.
"I got townish reads of ZDS and Zas because of [the roleplaying]."
"Roleplaying isn't necessarily townish, but it gives me townie vibes."
That's contradictory...
I'd appreciate it if you didn't spoon feed Cubus his answers. Thanks.
You can't have it both ways. Either you got townish vibes off people for roleplaying, or roleplaying isn't "townish per se." This is a direct contradiction.
Right, but you're trying to hard to make it look like you're town because two other people took the same action that is giving you "townish vibes."
How so?
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Wait I thought you claimed that you read a game where an SK did it. Here you just call him some guy. You also claim that you knew it was faked, if the above is correct.
"Roleplaying isn't necessarily townish, but it gives me townie vibes."
That's contradictory...
How? Just because Roleplaying isn't a "town tell" it can give someone 'vibes'
It is not a contradiction. A contradiction would be "It isn't necessarily townish, but is townish" Just because an action isn't intrinscally townish, doesn't mean it can't indicate to someone that they are townie. FoS:Andelijah
Also, what Cubus said.
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Ande strawmans that Cubus said all roleplaying is town and that Cubus was trying to use that to clear himself = scummy, and that Cubus was contradicting himself, and so on.
Ande's trying too hard to get a wagon going.
vote Andelijah
In other news, obviously Daykills Are Serious Business, but I've seen negative reactions to fake daykills before and I have no idea whether jerubbaal is normally so high strung.
I do, if Cubus can't answer a question, you shouldn't be helping him. The fact that he immediately latches onto your answer is telling me he didn't have a better answer.
How is this not what he said? He said roleplaying is not townish per se, but he's getting a town read from people who are doing it. That is exactly the same as "It isn't necessarily townish, but is townish."
Erm, how does that work? Someone does something that is not townish, but someone else gets a town read from it?
Cubus called roleplaying a townie tell (or vibes, or whatever). Cubus roleplayed. Please don't make me do the math.
First off, its not a strawman. How is there a townish read from ZDS and Zas unless all [good/non-HE7] roleplaying is town. If all roleplaying is not inherently townie, then Cubus is using other knowledge to get those townie vibes. And other knowledge is rarely a good thing.
Saying that I'm only suspicious of Cubus because he tried to clear himself is also a strawman of me. My suspicion comes almost entirely from the fact that Cubus is clearing people off of posts without any content, or anything that should give him reason to clear them.
A little. I tend to do that to people I think are likely to be scum. People gave me that same argument in Kung Fu against lynching you or Kenji.
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What I find odd about this post isn't the 'contradiction' that ande pointed out. Rather the idea that something (i.e. roleplaying) can give information, give you a read, then you suggest no one does it anymore. If it's a source of information shouldn't you suggest people pursue it?
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It's not logical, it's a gut feeling. What do you think he meant by "vibes"?
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I thought he meant "I have other reasons to believe they are town," which generally means that Cubus would be scum.
Its just that, personally, I have trouble believing a) Cubus getting townie vibes from something inherently neutral and b) Cubus expressing those vibes after those players have done nothing except that inherently neutral thing. He preempts any of their real game play with "they look townie to me." And that leaves me wondering: why?
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I was so confused in that game... who won?
jerubball's post seems... weird to me. I'm not sure what it means. Something about it just seems insincere. Maybe it's the fact that he says it's can't be protown, when there's no more way it could be "proscum".. or the way his introduction (or proclaimed lack of one) followed the vote..
That defense also reeks of "let's move on and pretend that never happened" (which isn't necessarily a bad thing either).. he also flipflops, saying now that he's OK with it, just after saying it couldn't possibly be protown. It seems to be an attempt to bland in and agree with the mass. Like:
"That was scummy, and in no way protown"
"You're overreacting"
"Oh, I guess it's fint then"
I'm not sure what you mean here, likely because I don't remember what "barning" means..
Reads/Guesses: Xyre tried to get the game going.
andelijah is arguing with Cubus for the sake of it.
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What I meant to add is:
Cubus is making sense to me, and his logic seems fine (though maybe useless).. then again, if he can't explain it without help, why should I?
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Yeah, when I joined on MS, I tried to read a bunch of games to figure out how stuff worked. One game, the guy who turned out to be the SK did what Xyre did here, post a fake daykill (the poster's name was Oman, don't remember what the thread was, somewhere in mini-normal, just in case anyone really feels the need to verify this whole thing). I was not involved in the game at all, just reading it after-the-fact, so of course I had all the info. When Oman did it, it wasn't so much as a joke as a really asinine way to confuse people and try to get someone to make a mistake.
Bertrand, it's safe to say that I missed the joke. Not realizing that I missed the joke would make me an idiot. I'm new, but not stupid.
The role-playing is cute and I enjoy reading it, but it doesn't seem to necessarily lean my evaluation toward townie. Scum seem to act rather chummy in the early game, and humor is one of the ways to accomplish that. Regardless, most of the time it's a personality thing, and some people just like joking around more than others. Whether ZDS is one of those people, others may be able to confirm (as he seems to be the one RPing the most).
I find that a lot of Andelijah's reasoning about Cubus' statements is fairly on target. He points out a lot of posts in which Cubus comes rather close to contradicting himself. At the very least, Cubus' statements on the matter are unclear. Vague reasoning is unhelpful, at best. I would like a clearer and more condensed statement which clarifies your whole view on this role-playing thing.
This strikes me as a pretty good post. Cubus seems to be waffling between saying that RPing is neutral or somewhat townie, but he's happy to use it to justify his townie "vibes" from ZDS and ZasZ. Andelijah's logic seems quite a bit more coherent than Cubus' at this point. The point by point approach he has been taking in his posts seems thorough and generally well thought out.
(Quick aside, it takes me years to put together posts with any significant amount of quotes in them, is there a trick to the whole mess which I just haven't figured out yet? This is just my general forum ineptitude, but if anyone can help me out on this, it would be greatly appreciated)
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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The "omg we're only 67 posts in" votecount
Xyre (1) - Jerubbaal
Andelijah (4) – Alx2, Jeffe4, RafaelK, Cubus
ZasZ234 (1) - ZDS
Jerubbaal (1) - IH
Claws retracted (5) - Xyre, GiftsTrix, Andelijah, ZasZ234, Bertrand
With that, the ghostly feline wanders up to Cubus, and attempts to scratch his nose. However, the claws pass right through the surprised cat's face.
"Curses..." mutters Bigglesworth, fading from view.
11: Cubus, following Grakthis, says he won't roleplay anymore to avoid revealing info, but says that he's gotten townish reads off of ZDS and ZasZ from roleplaying.
19: andelijah wonders how he figured out the town reads off one post. Follows it up with post 40 because C failed to respond.
42: C gives a fairly indefinite response, saying that, while roleplaying isn't townish, a scum wouldn't make the posts. Huh.
43: A says C's previous post is WIFOMy.
48: C justifies his previous post. Barns ZDS in backing himself up. Follows this up with 50, in which be basically claims A is using WIFOM.
51: A covers the bases.
53: C replies. Further covers in 54.
Then people start jumping on.
Analysis: Both players are arguing flawed points. Cubus is, in my mind, trying to avoid looking foolish for a contradiction-in-nature of his first post, where he justifies previous roleplaying and argues against further roleplaying. Andelijah, however, has turned this into something of a semantics debate over whether there is a contradiction in Cubus' posts with regards to scumminess. The contradiction he gets, however, is really just an internal conflict in 42, which sounds like Cubus trying to finagle his way around things.
As andelijah rightly pointed out, Cubus can't really justify his townish feelings from ZDS and Zas, although I wouldn't say this is scummy. The right course of action, of course, is to ask him. Cubus, why do you think ZDS and Zas are town? Be as specific and self-referential as possible.
Andelijah, in the meantime, rather than ask him said question, makes a straw man out of Cubus' bizarre justification and uses this to pursue him, which seems like the main reason why people are voting for him. I can understand this, and andelijah definitely needs to provide answers. I'll wait on that before deciding whether to vote.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Ok, caught up. In the great andelijah/Cubus debate, I'll have to actually vote Cubus. Not because I agree with andelijah's arguments (he's stretching a non-existant distinction between "townie" and "town-vibes"), but because of this post by GiftsTrix, which IMO hits the nail on the head. If something gives you town vibes, why stop it so forcefully? Why not observe some more?
Instead, Cubus just sort of threw out very quickly, "oh, they're townish, let's not RP any more".
I'm taking it that this is your concise version of your reasons which I asked for, and Xyre echoed as well. You seem to suggest 3 different reasons why you think the early roleplaying by ZDS and ZasZ was fairly townie.
1) Drawing attention to themselves early (I don't find this convincing at all. If anything roleplaying is a way of keeping your activity high without providing much in the way of content. Drawing attention early is usually a safe move when you're scum, as you don't mind taking a bit of heat when the possibility of a lynch is low.)
2) They are revealing their character, which limits what they can claim later. (Honestly, this confuses me. Personality certainly does not limit official claims, such as cop or doc. What claims are you talking about here?)
3) That these posts evidenced a certain frame of mind which you would rather see in townie than scum. (Frankly, I don't care if you would like to see it in townies. In my [brief] experience, scum actually tend to be calmer than townies, probably because they have a fuller knowledge of the gamestate. Townies are generally in a state of much less certainty.)
None of these arguments really hold up, so it ends up seeming like you're just saying that RPing seems townie with no backing. When people called you out for saying that RPing is townie (which you didn't say explicitly, but your sentiment that ZDS and ZasZ were town seemed to rise from their RPing, so it was strongly implied), you said that you didn't think RPing was inherently townie. All this seems to leave you with no ground to stand upon for your assertion that ZDS and ZasZ seemed townie. The question then remains, if you had no good reason to say it, why did you say it? I am very suspicious of "feelings" or "gut instincts" that have absolutely no backing.
I don't see any problem with a PBPA at this point in the debate. They're almost always useful for clarifying the points or at least bringing out misunderstandings, even in the middle of a debate.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
And agreed about gut feelings.
Not wording your opinions very well, which means they weren't good opinions to begin with. Needing help to explain your thoughts is rarely good.
I'm not putting words in your mouth. How is this roleplaying any different than other people roleplaying? I see no difference. So why is this roleplaying giving you townie vibes but other roleplaying doesn't?
My point is, there is nothing special about the way ZDS and Zas roleplayed. So if roleplaying is not usually townish, it doesn't make any sense to me how you would get townish vibes.
So andelijah mischaracterized Cubus' argument to make it make logical sense. You're arguing something that doesn't make logical sense. I'm pretty sure that's not strawmanning. In fact, had you said that roleplaying is generally townish, I might have disagreed with the statement, but wouldn't be arguing with you about it. You said it isn't generally townish though, but declared basic, generic roleplaying to give you townie vibes.
You literally said you got town reads from them. That's as clearing as its going to get after 1 post by them. Just because you tried to say "No I didn't" now doesn't change the fact that you did before.
I don't understand you. First you say roleplaying isn't townish per se, now you say it isn't inherently neutral. What is it, scummy?
They had one to two posts each, during the random vote stage. Calling them townie is definitely before any of their real play.
Enough other people did it for you to feel comfortable?
Scummy.
Rafk was the only one out of the 5 people posting at the time not roleplaying. How did they draw attention to themselves?
Subclaiming = townie. I'll keep that in mind for later.
That's a decent point ZD... Cubus.
JF4: "I don't know, the questionning towards Cubus seems forced."
andelijah: "How so?"
JF4: "Just passing to say [your] explanation is not satisfactory enough for me."
Erm, k. I guess.
Salvation Mafia Clan
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last updated 03/23/11
You imply here you knew it was faked. I have a hard time buying that.
I dislike Alx's Cubus vote.
Kay, this guy is scummier than Jerubbal. I'm unsure how many votes he has atm, so I'm going to abstain from voting, but just because someone hasn't worded their opinions well doesn't mean they "were'nt good opinions to begin with". Some things are just hard to explain. If you're scum, die, if you're town, look at your arguments and think about what you're saying. How are you relating this to alignment? That the two he declared town are both his scum buddies? That he's arbitrarily buddying up to two players?
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