I was wondering if someone could explain to me exactly what this does in multiplayer.
Master Warcraft says that you decide which creatures attack. However, in the Comp Rules, deciding whether a creature attacks and who it attacks are the same process. So I was hoping to get a clarification.
I should explain, I mean when playing the Attack Multiple Players option.
If you play master warcraft, it over-rides the comp rules (using the golden rule) and you make all choices that would occur during combat that turn. which creatures attack, who/what they attack, how blocks are set up, and how damage is dealt.
of course, the card is usually used in the sense of "I'm attacking with everybody, you're not blocking any of them. I win."
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If you play master warcraft, it over-rides the comp rules (using the golden rule) and you make all choices that would occur during combat that turn. which creatures attack, who/what they attack, how blocks are set up, and how damage is dealt.
You choose which creatures attack, and how each creature blocks. Nothing else. You don't choose who the creatures are attacking or how damage is dealt.
As for the details of how you "help" your opponent with his attacker declarations, the relevant rule is this.
Quote from CompRules »
602.3. As the attacking player declares each attacking creature, he or she chooses a defending player for it to attack. See rule 308, "Declare Attackers Step."
To me, that sounds like you choose a creature, then your opponent chooses who it's attacking. Then you choose another creature, and your opponent chooses who it's attacking. Repeat as many times as you like.
As for the details of how you "help" your opponent with his attacker declarations, the relevant rule is this.
It says to see rule 308.
308.2. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration was illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 422, "Handling Illegal Actions," and rule 500, "Legal Attacks and Blocks").
308.2a For each untapped creature the active player controls that he or she has controlled continuously since the beginning of the turn or that has haste, that player either chooses not to attack with it, or chooses an opponent or a planeswalker controlled by an opponent for that creature to attack. Then he or she determines whether this set of attackers is legal. (See rule 500, "Legal Attacks and Blocks.")
There doesn't seem to be any such thing as choosing who will attack separately from whom will be attacked. For each creature, you either choose no attack, or choose a defender. Those are the only two choices.
Which begs the question, what does Master Warcraft allow you to do instead of allowing the controller to do.
If we followed your interpretation, then what Master Warcraft does is allow you to put a "must attack" tag on creatures. This would make you wonder why Master Warcraft wouldn't be worded the same way as other cards that do that.
In other words, why doesn't Master Warcraft use the "attacks this turn if able" language of other cards that do what you say this does?
btw a judge at Star City agrees with your interpretation.
In other words, why doesn't Master Warcraft use the "attacks this turn if able" language of other cards that do what you say this does?
Because the Ravnica templating team wasn't worried about planeswalkers when they wrote the text of Master Warcraft?
The problem (if there is one) is that the newly planeswalker-ized 308.2a is not quite compatible with Master Warcraft. Choosing the defending player in 602.3 seems fine. If it were up to me, I'd reword 308.2a to make a distinction between choosing an attacking creature and choosing who or what it's attacking. But if you want my completely unofficial, non-judge ruling on how the card works given the current state of the rules, you've got it.
I think the only reasonable way to deal with this issue is to bombard WotC with a salvo of polite e-mail and letters so that they issue errata on this.
Any non official rulings don't really work becuase the rules are pretty bad on this.
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Master Warcraft says that you decide which creatures attack. However, in the Comp Rules, deciding whether a creature attacks and who it attacks are the same process. So I was hoping to get a clarification.
Sure. It lets you choose exactly what it says you get to choose, and nothing else. Even if the other choice would be made at the same time.
So, you can't choose what (player or planeswalker) or who (which player) gets attacked. The creature's controller still makes those decision. You make those decisiosn all at once, not one at a time with a "who to attack" feathered in-between.
No errata are needed. And these are official rulings.
Sure. It lets you choose exactly what it says you get to choose, and nothing else. Even if the other choice would be made at the same time.
So, you can't choose what (player or planeswalker) or who (which player) gets attacked. The creature's controller still makes those decision. You make those decisiosn all at once, not one at a time with a "who to attack" feathered in-between.
No errata are needed. And these are official rulings.
Whether a creature attacks, and who or what that creature attacks, are separate decisions being made by different players. This necessitates that the decisions be made in some order.
You: "Atog, Banshee, and Camel attack."
Opponent: "They attack Alice, Bob, and Chandra, respectively."
Whether a creature attacks, and who or what that creature attacks, are separate decisions being made by different players.
Right - first the Master Warcraft player decides which creatureS are attacking, just like the card says. Not one decision for each creature, the one decision he has is the set of attackers. Then their controller decides who or what. Like I already said.
This leads to another question. Suppose the controller of Master Warcraft specifies that some other player's creatures are attacking. Now, a third player controls Propaganda. What are the attacking player's obligations here? What if he decides that the creatures will attack the player with Propaganda, and then can't pay? Do we rewind?
Or is he instead obligated to say that the creatures will attack a player who doesn't control a Propaganda?
Player A (the Master of Warcraft) cannot force Player B (the attacking player) to attack Player C (the Propogandist) because Propoganda creates an attacking restriction, which is "pay 2 for each attacking creature". However, Player A cannot force Player B to pay 2 because he doesn't control that part of the game. If Player B decides that he won't pay 2, then Player A must make Player B attack someone (or someones) else, or no one at all.
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Right - first the Master Warcraft player decides which creatureS are attacking, just like the card says. Not one decision for each creature, the one decision he has is the set of attackers.
Ah, but the problem is that the rules don't require you to choose which creatures attack. They require you to choose which player or planeswalker, if any, each creature is attacking.
Was the official ruling made before Lorwyn? If so, it no longer applies because the rule it's based on has been completely rewritten. Prior to Lorwyn, 308.2a made reference to choosing a "set of creatures", but this is no longer the case.
Quote from CompRules »
308.2a. For each untapped creature the active player controls that he or she has controlled continuously since the beginning of the turn or that has haste, that player either chooses not to attack with it, or chooses an opponent or a planeswalker controlled by an opponent for that creature to attack. Then he or she determines whether this set of attackers is legal. (See rule 500, "Legal Attacks and Blocks.")
Incidentally, I prefer your interpretation and would like it to be correct. But given the rules as they currently stand, I'm not convinced that your interpretation is more valid than mine. Is there something I'm missing?
Ah, but the problem is that the rules don't require you to choose which creatures attack.
Exactly. It's not a part of what the rules do, but it IS something Master Warcraft does. So "choose which creatures attack" is an ADDITIONAL choice, just for Mmaster Warcraft. It cajn't be "feathered in between" a bunch of decisions something else - the rules - requires, without it telling you exactly how to do that. Without such a description, it is one decision, made all at one time.
Which, again, is EXACTLY WHAT THE CARD SAYS. If you will stop trying to make it be more complicated than it is, you will see that.
Exactly. It's not a part of what the rules do, but it IS something Master Warcraft does. So "choose which creatures attack" is an ADDITIONAL choice, just for Mmaster Warcraft. It cajn't be "feathered in between" a bunch of decisions something else - the rules - requires, without it telling you exactly how to do that. Without such a description, it is one decision, made all at one time.
Master Warcraft tells you what the choice is, but not when to make it. That means either you make the choice now (i.e. during Master Warcraft's resolution, which I think is pretty obviously not the intent), or you make the choice when the rules require it to be made (with 308.2a being the closest match). It sounds to me like you're inserting the choice where you'd intuitively expect it to be, with no real justification for putting it there.
That being said, I don't foresee us coming to an agreement on this issue anytime soon. So unless someone has something important to add, I'm content to let this discussion end with a "let's agree to disagree".
Sure. It lets you choose exactly what it says you get to choose, and nothing else. Even if the other choice would be made at the same time.
So, you can't choose what (player or planeswalker) or who (which player) gets attacked. The creature's controller still makes those decision. You make those decisiosn all at once, not one at a time with a "who to attack" feathered in-between.
No errata are needed. And these are official rulings.
Star City isn't official. Oracle and Oracle alone is official. Rule 308.2 implies that the process of declaring an attacker includes choosing who (or what in the case of planeswalkers) is attacked. Until MaGo and the rest of WotC issues a ruling I'll go with what the rules imply.
Also remember the card in question was printed shortly before the whole multiplayer section came to be and long before the planeswalkers where even thought of. Where it printed today I think it would specify you would be able to declare who it attacks. That's the intent of the card. The textualist ruling your bandying about is one of the reasons I stay well away from tournament play - it brings out the worst in people.
Star City isn't official. Oracle and Oracle alone is official.
"Oracle" is the list of official card wordings, not rulings. The Gatherer rulings, which I assume are what you mean, are just a list of official rulings that have been made at one time or another. And can be wrong as well. If you want an official ruling, you need to ask in a place where an official gives them. Arguing about it here is pointless given your stance. Try the WotC Q&A board or MTG-L mailing list.
But the rule you are leaning so heavily upon does not place an order on "what attacks" and "how it attacks." Literally, the choice for each creature is between "don't attack" and "attack that player/planeswalker." The choice Master Warcraft offers, "Attack with this creature," is left out of 308.2a. Which is why Master Warcraft has to be a decision outside of 308.2a.
The other thing you are assuming is that 308.2a is describing multiple steps - that the decisions for any one creature are placed in some arbitrary order chosen by the active player. They are not. The only reason "for each" is used is because you can't announce all of the decisions at exactly the same time. Rule 308.2a is one step; well, two really. Announce the full set of attacking decisiosn, and check that it is legal.
Whatever. Again, that's why I don't play in tournaments. I just don't like people who hold the letter of rules more important than the intent. When I have to deal with things down to the letter I write computer programs. Computers misinterpret due to a lack of ability to interpret - not for the selfish reasons humans usually misinterpret things.
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Master Warcraft says that you decide which creatures attack. However, in the Comp Rules, deciding whether a creature attacks and who it attacks are the same process. So I was hoping to get a clarification.
I should explain, I mean when playing the Attack Multiple Players option.
of course, the card is usually used in the sense of "I'm attacking with everybody, you're not blocking any of them. I win."
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You choose which creatures attack, and how each creature blocks. Nothing else. You don't choose who the creatures are attacking or how damage is dealt.
As for the details of how you "help" your opponent with his attacker declarations, the relevant rule is this.
To me, that sounds like you choose a creature, then your opponent chooses who it's attacking. Then you choose another creature, and your opponent chooses who it's attacking. Repeat as many times as you like.
It says to see rule 308.
There doesn't seem to be any such thing as choosing who will attack separately from whom will be attacked. For each creature, you either choose no attack, or choose a defender. Those are the only two choices.
Which begs the question, what does Master Warcraft allow you to do instead of allowing the controller to do.
If we followed your interpretation, then what Master Warcraft does is allow you to put a "must attack" tag on creatures. This would make you wonder why Master Warcraft wouldn't be worded the same way as other cards that do that.
In other words, why doesn't Master Warcraft use the "attacks this turn if able" language of other cards that do what you say this does?
btw a judge at Star City agrees with your interpretation.
I guess. I don't see how else you could reasonably interpret it.
Because the Ravnica templating team wasn't worried about planeswalkers when they wrote the text of Master Warcraft?
The problem (if there is one) is that the newly planeswalker-ized 308.2a is not quite compatible with Master Warcraft. Choosing the defending player in 602.3 seems fine. If it were up to me, I'd reword 308.2a to make a distinction between choosing an attacking creature and choosing who or what it's attacking. But if you want my completely unofficial, non-judge ruling on how the card works given the current state of the rules, you've got it.
Good to hear.
Any non official rulings don't really work becuase the rules are pretty bad on this.
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Sure. It lets you choose exactly what it says you get to choose, and nothing else. Even if the other choice would be made at the same time.
So, you can't choose what (player or planeswalker) or who (which player) gets attacked. The creature's controller still makes those decision. You make those decisiosn all at once, not one at a time with a "who to attack" feathered in-between.
No errata are needed. And these are official rulings.
Whether a creature attacks, and who or what that creature attacks, are separate decisions being made by different players. This necessitates that the decisions be made in some order.
You: "Atog, Banshee, and Camel attack."
Opponent: "They attack Alice, Bob, and Chandra, respectively."
OR
You: "Atog attacks..."
Opponent: "...Alice."
You: "Banshee attacks..."
Opponent: "...Bob."
You: "Camel attacks..."
Opponent: "...Chandra."
Either way, each individual decision can be influenced by previous decisions. So which order is correct?
Right - first the Master Warcraft player decides which creatureS are attacking, just like the card says. Not one decision for each creature, the one decision he has is the set of attackers. Then their controller decides who or what. Like I already said.
This leads to another question. Suppose the controller of Master Warcraft specifies that some other player's creatures are attacking. Now, a third player controls Propaganda. What are the attacking player's obligations here? What if he decides that the creatures will attack the player with Propaganda, and then can't pay? Do we rewind?
Or is he instead obligated to say that the creatures will attack a player who doesn't control a Propaganda?
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Ah, but the problem is that the rules don't require you to choose which creatures attack. They require you to choose which player or planeswalker, if any, each creature is attacking.
Was the official ruling made before Lorwyn? If so, it no longer applies because the rule it's based on has been completely rewritten. Prior to Lorwyn, 308.2a made reference to choosing a "set of creatures", but this is no longer the case.
Incidentally, I prefer your interpretation and would like it to be correct. But given the rules as they currently stand, I'm not convinced that your interpretation is more valid than mine. Is there something I'm missing?
Exactly. It's not a part of what the rules do, but it IS something Master Warcraft does. So "choose which creatures attack" is an ADDITIONAL choice, just for Mmaster Warcraft. It cajn't be "feathered in between" a bunch of decisions something else - the rules - requires, without it telling you exactly how to do that. Without such a description, it is one decision, made all at one time.
Which, again, is EXACTLY WHAT THE CARD SAYS. If you will stop trying to make it be more complicated than it is, you will see that.
Master Warcraft tells you what the choice is, but not when to make it. That means either you make the choice now (i.e. during Master Warcraft's resolution, which I think is pretty obviously not the intent), or you make the choice when the rules require it to be made (with 308.2a being the closest match). It sounds to me like you're inserting the choice where you'd intuitively expect it to be, with no real justification for putting it there.
That being said, I don't foresee us coming to an agreement on this issue anytime soon. So unless someone has something important to add, I'm content to let this discussion end with a "let's agree to disagree".
Star City isn't official. Oracle and Oracle alone is official. Rule 308.2 implies that the process of declaring an attacker includes choosing who (or what in the case of planeswalkers) is attacked. Until MaGo and the rest of WotC issues a ruling I'll go with what the rules imply.
Also remember the card in question was printed shortly before the whole multiplayer section came to be and long before the planeswalkers where even thought of. Where it printed today I think it would specify you would be able to declare who it attacks. That's the intent of the card. The textualist ruling your bandying about is one of the reasons I stay well away from tournament play - it brings out the worst in people.
"Oracle" is the list of official card wordings, not rulings. The Gatherer rulings, which I assume are what you mean, are just a list of official rulings that have been made at one time or another. And can be wrong as well. If you want an official ruling, you need to ask in a place where an official gives them. Arguing about it here is pointless given your stance. Try the WotC Q&A board or MTG-L mailing list.
But the rule you are leaning so heavily upon does not place an order on "what attacks" and "how it attacks." Literally, the choice for each creature is between "don't attack" and "attack that player/planeswalker." The choice Master Warcraft offers, "Attack with this creature," is left out of 308.2a. Which is why Master Warcraft has to be a decision outside of 308.2a.
The other thing you are assuming is that 308.2a is describing multiple steps - that the decisions for any one creature are placed in some arbitrary order chosen by the active player. They are not. The only reason "for each" is used is because you can't announce all of the decisions at exactly the same time. Rule 308.2a is one step; well, two really. Announce the full set of attacking decisiosn, and check that it is legal.